GOF Chapter 14: The Unforgivable Curses
Apr. 1st, 2011 08:38 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
oryx_leucoryx posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
deathtocapslock(or - curses which can be unforgivable or gallant, depending on who casts them on whom)
My sporks may become more sporadic, nor will I be responding as much as I have so far, as Real Life is becoming more demanding. I still hope to create opportunities for discussions among you. Enjoy!
By the third day of classes Neville melted his 6th cauldron. Was that 6 in one lesson or the 6th since he started at Hogwarts? In any case, he disemboweled horned toads for detention. But since horned toads are actually some species of lizard I don't think his near nervous collapse had to do with thoughts on Trevor, just the effort of a repetitive, unpleasant task.
It isn't the fourth year running that Severus 'failed' to get the DADA job, Harry. The world was not created the day you entered Hogwarts.
Severus is avoiding 'Moody''s eyes. Is the real Moody a Legilimens? I think this avoidance supports Moody's involvement in Severus' interrogation during or after VoldieWar I.
Real-Moody's choice of textbook 'The Dark Forces: A guide to Self-Protection' is the same book Quirrell assigned to them in first year. Maybe that's the standard DADA text back from Prof Merrythought's days. At any rate, I'm wondering now about Umbridge's claim that Quirrell's lessons were age-appropriate. Well, maybe it was a very thick book, with sections for each year.
But 'Moody' is much cooler - he is not going to teach from the book at all! (He's just the opposite of Umbridge, who wanted the students to have books out and wands away.) Yes! He is going to bring them up to scratch about what wizards can do to each other! After some 12 years under Imperius, he gets to demonstrate Dark Arts in front of admiring students! Oh, how Barty is going to enjoy himself this year!
Yes, Barty, you owe one to Ron's dad. (I wonder if Arthur ever contemplated how his shenanigans assisted Voldemort's return. I wish he admitted to it when he claimed Percy was being recruited as a spy. If he gave his example of being used without his knowledge it might have gone over better than open accusation.) Barty, your retirement will be much quieter than you think.
Aha, the Ministry approves of demonstrating illegal Dark curses to 6th years like the twins. But 'Moody' claims to have Albus' approval to accelerate the curriculum a bit. Knowing Albus' attitude to the Ministry I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
Arthur *would* know about Imperius. As one who dealt with victims of it or as a victim himself? Alas, Imperiurized!Arthur was never confirmed.
"Think it's funny, do you? You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?" That will be put to test next lesson. Interesting that it is a DE who makes the students think of the difference in perspective between a spectator and a victim. Of course he is not just a perpetrator but a former victim himself.
"I could make it jump out of the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats ..." - Thanks to Elkins for pointing out those were exactly Barty's fears - that his father would force him to commit suicide. Especially after the QWC, when it turned out he could throw the curse off and Winky was no longer around to supervise him.
I can see how practice can help recognize when one is under Imperius and therefore one needs to resist it, but how does one avoid being hit by it? Perhaps Barty was trying to give the students a false sense of security - imagining they'd be able to recognize the wand movement or the beginning of the incantation?
(BTW Ron only knew one Unforgivable Curse, and he wasn't completely certain about that one either. I guess Arthur never mentioned the other 2? Nor did, say, the AK come up in the context of how Molly's brothers died?)
It is so creepy to know that it is Barty inviting Neville to speak about the Cruciatus. Yes, it was popular once. With you. (Don't worry, it wasn't the spider Hermione was being compassionate for. Still, I like it that she opposed a teacher for an upset classmate.)
OK, in a class that includes several purebloods and at least one wizarding-raised half-blood, how come Hermione is the only one who knows about the AK?
Harry is the only one who survived the AK. Unless you count all those who managed to duck behind something or conjure a blocking object in time.
The use of any Unforgivable on a fellow human being earns you a life sentence in Azkaban. Casting them on spiders is fine. As well as on human beings who aren't your fellows, I suppose. That can sometimes be gallant, if you are the right kind of person.
Oh, how the Gryffindors enjoyed the demonstration of Dark Arts in class! A pity Hogwarts only teaches defense, really!
If Neville and Harry (and Hermione, of course) were disturbed by the class but Ron wasn't - does this mean Imperiurized!Arthur is false?
Now I'm wondering how this lesson went with the 4th year Slytherins. Did they know the names of the Unforgivables? Did they pretend not to know? Did 'Moody' taunt Draco with the Imperius Curse? Whom did he taunt with the others?
'Moody' invites Neville to tea. So spooky when one knows who that is. I wonder how Neville reflects on his interactions with 'Moody' later on, when he learns the truth. Because Harry is completely unperturbed that it was a DE who gave him the idea to become an Auror.
Moody attacks first, asks questions later. Does anyone need more evidence the real one was a Gryffindor?
Oh, Neville received a book about water plants. Which Harry will need later that year. But as Neville is mostly invisible to Harry the book won't be of any help.
Barty's act is going fine - Harry is now comparing him to Remus.
Harry and Ron are making up predictions for Divination. Oddly they actually do reflect the events of the coming year, though on a more extended schedule: danger of burns - may be about the skrewts, as Ron says, but also about the dragon Harry will face in almost 3 months. Losing a treasured possession - foreshadows the second task. Getting stabbed in the back by someone Harry thought was a friend - Ron's reaction to Harry's name emerging from the goblet, or 'Moody' turning out to be a DE who attempts to kill Harry? I'm not sure what losing a fight or a bet were about, though this is Hogwarts so there's always a lot of fighting going on, and of course this is the year of gambling.
Since Hermione isn't around to tell them off, Crookshanks is doing it for her. Why don't you go snarling at 'Moody', Crookshanks?
The twins are conspiring about blackmailing Ludo, again. (No, Crookshanks doesn't care about that either.)
Ron seems to be drowning twice. Well, he will be underwater for hours on end. Does this count? OTOH Harry dying by decapitation is a bit of a stretch - Voldmeort likes the AK, that leaves the victim's body intact.
Here comes SPEW, with 50 badges! Ron is treasurer, because he is so financially responsible and Harry is secretary, because Hermione said so.
Hermione's research revealed that elves have been enslaved for centuries, but not anything about what magic is involved to enforce their status. She came up with goals for her campaign without any input from the elves themselves, which shows just how much she believes in treating them as persons with wills of their own.
Hedwig is back with Sirius' reply. It took her under 2 weeks to fly from Surrey to whichever tropical location Sirius was staying at and back to Scotland. Sirius decides that things are serious enough to justify his return, but Harry blows it off. Doesn't he remember that Peter escaped? That Albus believed Trelawney's prophecy about him returning Voldemort to power was true? Wouldn't that put him in danger? (And not only him...)
Later we will learn that Sirius also reported about Harry's dream to Albus. So at this moment Albus knows the following: Peter left Hogwarts in June, probably on his way to Albania. Bertha Jorkins disappeared in Albania not long afterwards. Tom left Albania (must have been reported by Albus' 'sources') and must have arrived in Britain recently. Albus may already be aware of Frank Bryce's disappearance in Little Hangleton, (Or he may find out this tidbit later on.) Also, someone loyal to Voldemort was (probably) present at the QWC.
My sporks may become more sporadic, nor will I be responding as much as I have so far, as Real Life is becoming more demanding. I still hope to create opportunities for discussions among you. Enjoy!
By the third day of classes Neville melted his 6th cauldron. Was that 6 in one lesson or the 6th since he started at Hogwarts? In any case, he disemboweled horned toads for detention. But since horned toads are actually some species of lizard I don't think his near nervous collapse had to do with thoughts on Trevor, just the effort of a repetitive, unpleasant task.
It isn't the fourth year running that Severus 'failed' to get the DADA job, Harry. The world was not created the day you entered Hogwarts.
Severus is avoiding 'Moody''s eyes. Is the real Moody a Legilimens? I think this avoidance supports Moody's involvement in Severus' interrogation during or after VoldieWar I.
Real-Moody's choice of textbook 'The Dark Forces: A guide to Self-Protection' is the same book Quirrell assigned to them in first year. Maybe that's the standard DADA text back from Prof Merrythought's days. At any rate, I'm wondering now about Umbridge's claim that Quirrell's lessons were age-appropriate. Well, maybe it was a very thick book, with sections for each year.
But 'Moody' is much cooler - he is not going to teach from the book at all! (He's just the opposite of Umbridge, who wanted the students to have books out and wands away.) Yes! He is going to bring them up to scratch about what wizards can do to each other! After some 12 years under Imperius, he gets to demonstrate Dark Arts in front of admiring students! Oh, how Barty is going to enjoy himself this year!
Yes, Barty, you owe one to Ron's dad. (I wonder if Arthur ever contemplated how his shenanigans assisted Voldemort's return. I wish he admitted to it when he claimed Percy was being recruited as a spy. If he gave his example of being used without his knowledge it might have gone over better than open accusation.) Barty, your retirement will be much quieter than you think.
Aha, the Ministry approves of demonstrating illegal Dark curses to 6th years like the twins. But 'Moody' claims to have Albus' approval to accelerate the curriculum a bit. Knowing Albus' attitude to the Ministry I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
Arthur *would* know about Imperius. As one who dealt with victims of it or as a victim himself? Alas, Imperiurized!Arthur was never confirmed.
"Think it's funny, do you? You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?" That will be put to test next lesson. Interesting that it is a DE who makes the students think of the difference in perspective between a spectator and a victim. Of course he is not just a perpetrator but a former victim himself.
"I could make it jump out of the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats ..." - Thanks to Elkins for pointing out those were exactly Barty's fears - that his father would force him to commit suicide. Especially after the QWC, when it turned out he could throw the curse off and Winky was no longer around to supervise him.
I can see how practice can help recognize when one is under Imperius and therefore one needs to resist it, but how does one avoid being hit by it? Perhaps Barty was trying to give the students a false sense of security - imagining they'd be able to recognize the wand movement or the beginning of the incantation?
(BTW Ron only knew one Unforgivable Curse, and he wasn't completely certain about that one either. I guess Arthur never mentioned the other 2? Nor did, say, the AK come up in the context of how Molly's brothers died?)
It is so creepy to know that it is Barty inviting Neville to speak about the Cruciatus. Yes, it was popular once. With you. (Don't worry, it wasn't the spider Hermione was being compassionate for. Still, I like it that she opposed a teacher for an upset classmate.)
OK, in a class that includes several purebloods and at least one wizarding-raised half-blood, how come Hermione is the only one who knows about the AK?
Harry is the only one who survived the AK. Unless you count all those who managed to duck behind something or conjure a blocking object in time.
The use of any Unforgivable on a fellow human being earns you a life sentence in Azkaban. Casting them on spiders is fine. As well as on human beings who aren't your fellows, I suppose. That can sometimes be gallant, if you are the right kind of person.
Oh, how the Gryffindors enjoyed the demonstration of Dark Arts in class! A pity Hogwarts only teaches defense, really!
If Neville and Harry (and Hermione, of course) were disturbed by the class but Ron wasn't - does this mean Imperiurized!Arthur is false?
Now I'm wondering how this lesson went with the 4th year Slytherins. Did they know the names of the Unforgivables? Did they pretend not to know? Did 'Moody' taunt Draco with the Imperius Curse? Whom did he taunt with the others?
'Moody' invites Neville to tea. So spooky when one knows who that is. I wonder how Neville reflects on his interactions with 'Moody' later on, when he learns the truth. Because Harry is completely unperturbed that it was a DE who gave him the idea to become an Auror.
Moody attacks first, asks questions later. Does anyone need more evidence the real one was a Gryffindor?
Oh, Neville received a book about water plants. Which Harry will need later that year. But as Neville is mostly invisible to Harry the book won't be of any help.
Barty's act is going fine - Harry is now comparing him to Remus.
Harry and Ron are making up predictions for Divination. Oddly they actually do reflect the events of the coming year, though on a more extended schedule: danger of burns - may be about the skrewts, as Ron says, but also about the dragon Harry will face in almost 3 months. Losing a treasured possession - foreshadows the second task. Getting stabbed in the back by someone Harry thought was a friend - Ron's reaction to Harry's name emerging from the goblet, or 'Moody' turning out to be a DE who attempts to kill Harry? I'm not sure what losing a fight or a bet were about, though this is Hogwarts so there's always a lot of fighting going on, and of course this is the year of gambling.
Since Hermione isn't around to tell them off, Crookshanks is doing it for her. Why don't you go snarling at 'Moody', Crookshanks?
The twins are conspiring about blackmailing Ludo, again. (No, Crookshanks doesn't care about that either.)
Ron seems to be drowning twice. Well, he will be underwater for hours on end. Does this count? OTOH Harry dying by decapitation is a bit of a stretch - Voldmeort likes the AK, that leaves the victim's body intact.
Here comes SPEW, with 50 badges! Ron is treasurer, because he is so financially responsible and Harry is secretary, because Hermione said so.
Hermione's research revealed that elves have been enslaved for centuries, but not anything about what magic is involved to enforce their status. She came up with goals for her campaign without any input from the elves themselves, which shows just how much she believes in treating them as persons with wills of their own.
Hedwig is back with Sirius' reply. It took her under 2 weeks to fly from Surrey to whichever tropical location Sirius was staying at and back to Scotland. Sirius decides that things are serious enough to justify his return, but Harry blows it off. Doesn't he remember that Peter escaped? That Albus believed Trelawney's prophecy about him returning Voldemort to power was true? Wouldn't that put him in danger? (And not only him...)
Later we will learn that Sirius also reported about Harry's dream to Albus. So at this moment Albus knows the following: Peter left Hogwarts in June, probably on his way to Albania. Bertha Jorkins disappeared in Albania not long afterwards. Tom left Albania (must have been reported by Albus' 'sources') and must have arrived in Britain recently. Albus may already be aware of Frank Bryce's disappearance in Little Hangleton, (Or he may find out this tidbit later on.) Also, someone loyal to Voldemort was (probably) present at the QWC.
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no subject
Date: 2011-04-09 10:13 pm (UTC)I'd have to question that, considering as you feel the need to point out, Even though at that point Severus wasn't a death eater.
Because if it was only lust I don't believe he would ever go to that extreme for lust only --
A bad choice of word; I'll retract it. Snape's ... affection ... for Lily may have been more than lust (which I see as purely physical. Like the attraction that comprises Harry/Ginny) but it fell short of sincere fair dinkum 'love'. If Snape had been fully 'in love' with Lily he would have wanted her to be HAPPY; that's one of the purest symptoms of real love, putting the other's happiness ahead of your own. And wanting Lily to be happy would have meant Snape desiring all three Potters to be saved. He goes to Dumbledore only begging for Lily's life.
But okay, bad word, I can accept Snape's affection/infatuation/crush as being more than simple physical attraction/lust.
I don't know but you seem to want it both ways, everything was either bad about it or there was some truth in it. You're choosing to say she did XYZ exactly right for your point, but you're deciding not to agree on another point.
There's no contradiction in what I said/believe at all. The HP series consists of many bits and pieces; some/most Rowling implemented badly. As a whole the series was a disaster. As a whole the last book was a catastrophe.
But you were discussing one specific item; the transition of Snape's reason to be loyal to Dumbledore. Initially a bargain to keep Lily safe, then transformed into an agreement to protect her son. That's something Rowling did actually address, quite clearly. OMG, she got something right!!!!! :-O
As far as the ministry goes, You seem to be taking Harry's line. Harry was fine with blaming everyone else but himself.
OotP is the only HP book I've read twice, but the last perusal was back in 2005. Hmmm. I think Harry has to shoulder most/all of the blame for that fiasco, what blame there is to go around. I mean, in the end he was a dupe of the dark lord, it's not like he *wanted* to put everyone in danger. But he was lazy, he'd deliberately not practised his Occlumency lessons, etc.
He would have dashed off without thought but then Hermione got him to try and contact Sirius. And they tipped off Snape. So - with Hermione's interference - he/they did try to take precautions.
I don't recall the couple of sentences where he tries to tell Snape what's happening - Umbridge is there too, right, they couldn't talk openly? - but I do wonder if Snape couldn't have done something - and done it sooner - to stop them from going. Maybe not.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-09 11:58 pm (UTC)Harry's in Umbridge's office when he conveys to Snape that Sirius is in the Ministry. Snape pretends not to understand, then immediately goes to contact Sirius to find out whether he's left GP.
While he's doing that, Hermione comes up with her plan, and she, Harry, and Umbridge go off to the Forbidden Forest. ...Stuff happens, the other kids get away from the Inquisitorial Squad, and join Harry and Hermione in the forest shortly after the centaurs, Umbridge, and Grawp leave.
The kids leave directly from the forest. Snape had probably finished talking to Sirius by that point, but he wouldn't've had any idea where the kids were. He couldn't have stopped them.
Now, as to how quickly he alerted the Order... that's more awkward. Even if Snape alerted them as soon as he *realized* the kids were gone, how quickly would he realize it? Would he look for them immediately afterward, assuming that they wouldn't trust him to handle it? Maybe he should have, since he does consider Harry to be an idiot, and in this case, Harry was indeed behaving stupidly. I'm not sure how quickly he could've done it, though, considering the size of the castle and the fact that he must have assumed Umbridge to be around somewhere, and newly suspicious of anything he might do to help Harry. His ability to find Harry and tell him would be limited by the fact that Harry might still be with Umbridge, or that Umbridge might have had someone in the Inquisitorial Squad keeping an eye on Harry.
I dunno, but I do think that Snape puts enough priority on keeping Harry alive that he wouldn't delay *after realizing* that Harry was in danger. I mean, in PoA, he could've risked the kids' lives by getting help before charging into the Shrieking Shack to get revenge on Lupin and Sirius, but he didn't. Even though he put himself in more danger by failing to get anyone to help him.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-10 02:28 am (UTC)Love is like an onion, it has layers...wait maybe thats Shrek.
Is it just me but I don't know if happiness was on Snape's top agenda at that point. I think it was make sure Lily doesn't get killed. Plus I'm inclined to believe that Severus believed and knew Lily's nature. But he also knew James nature. Maybe in his mind his brain told him without a doubt that Lily would be the one who would protect the child before anyone else.
I doubt Severus believed James was a noble self-sacrificing sort of man. Severus image of James was very flawed.
So one could imagine that Severus knew if anyone was in danger of standing in front of the baby and getting killed for the baby would be Lily.
Although I could be putting more thought into it than even the character did. I have a feeling the only thing Severus was thinking, this is my fault, Lily is going to die because of me...who can help me...Dumbledore, he can save her, etc. etc. I really don't think Severus would have been 100% logical in the way you are suggesting.
That's something Rowling did actually address, quite clearly. OMG, she got something right
What did she get right that Snape loved Lily? You say he lusted after her. So Snape only wanted to get naked with Lily and do the nasty? really, is that all he wanted. If he was just a heartless git one would have thought this dark arts loving bad guy could have easily solved that problem years ago.
If that was all it was and all he was then I think we'd have a different story.
I don't recall the couple of sentences where he tries to tell Snape what's happening - Umbridge is there too, right, they couldn't talk openly? - but I do wonder if Snape couldn't have done something - and done it sooner - to stop them from going. Maybe not.
Well see I wasn't really talking about what happened in book per say; with the characters. I was talking about many times when the Ministry situation is brought up, certain fans will go right for Snape, and rarely ever blame Harry. I'm not talking about you but I have been in discussions where people tend to ignore Harry's part or gloss it over but go straight for Snape, suggesting he was to blame.
So what I'm getting at is, Harry was really the one who took that on himself. As in, IF he had never gone to the Ministry, well we'd clearly have a differnet ending in the story OOTP.
Problem I have seen is some people will go right for Snape, like I said, have been in discussions in the past and and seen it happen.
So when you bring up Snape and say he should have done 'something' or 'more' it just tends to make me think of those other discussions, where people cut Harry all the slack and just like Harry did, lay the blame on Snape.
IF people can excuse harry in that situation, (fans I mean not characters) then Snape should get just as much of a pass.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-10 02:44 am (UTC)Although I could be putting more thought into it than even the character did.
Yes you are. Plus you're thinking in entirely the wrong direction.
It's not a matter of 'who could protect Harry'.
It's a matter of (a) protecting Lily and (b) making her happy.
If Snape had truly loved Lily then (b) would have been important to him. And he knew that she wouldn't be happy - to understate things - if she lost her husband and son.
Yet Snape never considered saving them too. That's why he 'disgusted' Dumbledore. That's why we know he wasn't truly in love with Lily.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-10 03:37 am (UTC)Oh hell no, back it up. Don't tell me what direction to think...because I'm pretty damn good with a map.
When Snape went to Dumbledore he was only thinking of Lily becasue THAT is who he was in love with, Or as you say...it was lust.
There's a think line between being a hero and being in lust...(Sorry Optimus Prime, I changed your tag line)
Sorry, I think it was more than your lust theory. Maybe it wasn't perfect love as you believe it to be - but I guess we'll leave that perfect love in the HP universe to Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione...and lets not forget James and Lily.
Those three couples are the symbol of perfect all powerful love in the HP series.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-10 03:37 am (UTC)Oh hell no, back it up. Don't tell me what direction to think...because I'm pretty damn good with a map.
When Snape went to Dumbledore he was only thinking of Lily becasue THAT is who he was in love with, Or as you say...it was lust.
There's a thin line between being a hero and being in lust...(Sorry Optimus Prime, I changed your tag line)
Sorry, I think it was more than your lust theory. Maybe it wasn't perfect love as you believe it to be - but I guess we'll leave that perfect love in the HP universe to Harry and Ginny and Ron and Hermione...and lets not forget James and Lily.
Those three couples are the symbol of perfect all powerful love in the HP series.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-10 12:45 pm (UTC)I'm glad you told me, Karen, because it didn't look like it from your post. :-)
Or as you say...it was lust.
I retracted the 'lust' word; maybe that was in a comment to someone else. I see 'lust' as purely physical, like the totality of the Harry/Ginny canon relationship. I see Snape's regard for Lily as somewhere in between 'lust' and 'true love'.
But it wasn't true love.
Those three couples are the symbol of perfect all powerful love in the HP series.
That's a different topic but ... OH MY GOODNESS NO!!! H/G 'true love'? Ugh. R/Hr? Eww.
Actually, on second thought ... maybe their canon affection *is* 'true love', by my definition, maybe not; I'm not sure the 'thinking only of the other's happiness' test is raised for those two couples? They're just based on such flimsy and offensive foundations they can't be taken seriously and doesn't hold up on other grounds, IMO.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-10 04:24 pm (UTC)LOL! But you've never seen me with a map so clearly your opinion on me not being good with directions is wrong based on your lack of knowledge or understanding of me personally.
I retracted the 'lust' word; maybe that was in a comment to someone else. I see 'lust' as purely physical, like the totality of the Harry/Ginny canon relationship. I see Snape's regard for Lily as somewhere in between 'lust' and 'true love'.
It's not true love but it's something between lust and true love. Forgive me, but apparently by your own admission now you are saying there are different kinds of love and previously well there was only this magical 'real love' that meets up with your personal expectations out of life.
Maybe Snape doesn't live up to your expectations but most people can't live up to high expectations. In life most people fail sometimes, at one time or another. Sometimes you have to accept people for how they are and move on.
That's a different topic but ... OH MY GOODNESS NO!!! H/G 'true love'? Ugh. R/Hr? Eww.
Look, you are the one that keeps bringing up how bad snape was for wanting revenge. I showed you the good characters that wanted revenge as well.
You pointed out that Snape didn't have 'real love' but I pointed out that the ideals you set for of 'real love' appear to be those other examples JKR wanted to give us in HP.
I don't believe it's irrelevant to make the compairson, you are the one thats bringing up real love and revenge and suggest that Snape's motives are worse; but when compairing him to other characters his motives and reasons can just as easily be justified. Nobody is saying he's perfect here but other good characters are just as flawed IMO.
I don't think I've implied that Snape had real love or better love. I would neither deny that he lusted after Lily but your choice was to imply that it was only lust. But if we're going to accept one thing then we also have to accept that in his way he must have loved Lily.
There is a song that tends to make me thing it was written for snape part of the lyrics are below:
What is the force that binds the stars
I wore this mask to hide my scars
What is the power that pulls the tide
I never could find a place to hide
What moves the Earth around the sun
What could I do but run and run and run
Afraid to love, afraid to fail
A mast without a sail
The moon's a fingernail and slowly sinking
Another day begins and now I'm thinking
That this indifference was my invention
When everything I did sought your attention
You were my compass star
You were my measure
You were a pirate's map
A buried treasure
If this was all correct
The last thing I'd expect
The prosecution rests
It's time that I confess: I must have loved you
To me the above is kind of Snape in a nutshell, he was never able to realize he loved Lily till
it was too late. Though he did much to try and gain her affection while they were young he still
chose to go the wrong path...and in the end the mistake he made caused him to realize what kind
of fool and idiot he had been.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-10 06:57 pm (UTC)Rowling presents Snape's feelings for Lily as "true love", Harry even states that Snape loved his mother, so reader's should accept that as flawed as it was, Snape's feelings were "true love".
True love is not perfect; anyone who thinks it is is extremely immature.
Snape had little experience of "true love", even from his own parents. People who come from loving, functional families realize that love is not finite, that the more you give away the more you get back in return.
But people who are the product of dysfunctional families learn that love always has a price, that it is a finite commodity that has a certain price that is exacted before the love is granted.
Someone like Snape would not be able to understand that Lily could love other people and even things, and still not diminish any love she had for him. For people like Snape, love is like a pie, only a certain number of pieces to go around, and then it is gone.
This doesn't mean that Snape's love for Lily wasn't real; he just viewed love as a limited commodity. He wasn't going to give HIS love away to just anyone, and he'd view Lily's love for James and Harry as diminishing the remaining amount of love she would have to give to him.
I've always said that even if Severus and Lily hadn't broken their friendship at the end of 5th year, and if they had gone on to get married, that they'd be divorced after 10 to 15 years. Lily was too outgoing and would want to get together and do things with friends, while Severus would not want to be bothered, and would resent it if Lily went out on her own (most likely grilling her when she got home regarding who she was with and where she had gone).
I think if they'd had children, as proud of his children as he would be, he'd still resent them taking Lily's time/love away from him.
It would cause a problematic marriage with much arguing, but it would NOT mean that Severus didn't love Lily! It's just that his view of what love means was skewed by his childhood.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-11 11:18 am (UTC)I think the pinnacle of 'real love' is complete selflessness and putting the other's happiness ahead of your own, yes. And yes, that's my own personal metric. Which I'm applying to Snape.
S-n-a-p-e. So don't bring in Harry, or Hermione, or Ron, or Ginny ...
Maybe Snape doesn't live up to your expectations --
Excellent! There we go. Thank you. My job here is done.
Snape's 'love' for Lily doesn't measure up to what I hold to be 'true love'. And thus I don't believe it's realistic that he pined away 20 years, suffering under two lords, etc, for that not-the-real-deal 'love'.
To me the above is kind of Snape in a nutshell, he was never able to realize he loved Lily till it was too late.
Now that's an interesting point (finally :-)). Sadly there's no real evidence of it, though, other than a circular chain of logic threading the actual issue we're discussing. Snape protected Harry for all those years out of real-after-Lily's-death 'love' ... and we say he had real-after-Lily's-death 'love' because he protected Harry.
See things from my side for a moment, as a way of understanding the POWER of TRUE LOVE :-) -
Snape: Dumbledore, the Dark Lord is going to kill the Potters! You've got to save them!
Dumbledore: But, Serverus, I thought you hated James?
Snape: I ... I do ... but Lily loves him.
Dumbledore: I understand.
HP readership: Awwww, Snape must REALLY LOVE her!!!
See?
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Date: 2011-04-11 01:32 pm (UTC)Then apply away, I hope you find or have found that pinnacle of 'real love'
S-n-a-p-e. So don't bring in Harry, or Hermione, or Ron, or Ginny ...
Snape has issues, and so does the rest of humanity but if you expect everyone to live up to your expectations all the time you are going to be a disappointed human. The idea behind Snape is he fail and makes mistakes and yet he keeps trying to do the right thing, even when he doesn't seem to know what that is. You seem to be expecting perfection from a character who is flawed. You seem to be expecting this real love who might have never been shown what real love is.
If we wanted to compair Snape to a dog, you expect this Snape dog to know how to sit on command even when you don't train it or teach it. And then, let the other dogs tear into him, and maybe you ignore him for not obeying and then still expect it to understand sit.
Thanks Dumbledore for promoting real love but never teaching it.
Excellent! There we go. Thank you. My job here is done.
Great, how much did you get paid for that 'job'.
Snape's 'love' for Lily doesn't measure up to what I hold to be 'true love'. And thus I don't believe it's realistic that he pined away 20 years, suffering under two lords, etc, for that not-the-real-deal 'love'.
True love, real love. (laughs) If we can't compair other characters in HP to Snape's 'love' then you certainly can't apply this 'realistic' real love to him either. Sorry, you want to compair something real to something in a fairy tale, and you're saying it's irrelevent for us to compair something in the same story.
What exactly is realistic about your version of real love. Apparently you are an expert and know it without a doubt and are able to imply that none of us really understand 'real love' or 'true love'. That your expectations apparently far exceed our own.
Cleary I wouldn't live up to your expectations either; thank goodness.
Snape protected Harry for all those years out of real-after-Lily's-death 'love' ... and we say he had real-after-Lily's-death 'love' because he protected Harry.
I know people that after the person they love dies, they never fall in love again and they think about that dead person all the time. Why if that happens in real life wouldn't that happen with Snape. Oh yes, I forget he doesn't have real love so theirfor he couldn't have loved Lily.
There are people who go to the grave loving only one person. Maybe they can't get over the loss or can't move on. Maybe they're just shelfish or something. Again, your ideal of love is probably nice and all but I've not met the human that is perfect, so theirfor neither is love.
See things from my side for a moment, as a way of understanding the POWER of TRUE LOVE :-) -
using your favorite word, irrelevent.
And it goes more like this if you've forgotten.
"Hide them all, then," he croaked. "Keep her-them-safe. Please."
"and what will you give me in return, Severus?"
"In-in return?" Severus gaped at Dumbledore, and Harry expected him to protest, but after a long moment he said, "Anything."
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Date: 2011-04-11 06:03 pm (UTC)Yes, Karen, the rest of us fall short because we don't make ourselves doormats who give up all of our own wants/dreams/desires, sacrificing those for the sake of our beloved for whom we are 100% selfless, always kowtowing to their "happiness" 24/7 but never allowed for us to give an iota to ourselves.
And if our beloveds don't reciprocate in turn, well then it can't be "real" love, it isn't really "true" love, is it? :-P
Cleary I wouldn't live up to your expectations either; thank goodness.
Neither could the vast majority of humanity who are moderately psychologically healthy.
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Date: 2011-04-11 05:40 pm (UTC)Sorry, but you have a very immature viewpoint of what true/real love really is.
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Date: 2011-04-10 05:30 pm (UTC)The hallmark of true love in this series isn't selflessness, it's jealousy. If Krum or McLaggen really makes Hermione happy, why can't Ron just be happy for her? If Ron is happy with Lavender, why does Hermione attack him with birds? If Ginny and whoever are snogging away in apparent bliss, why does Harry experience this chest monster? Do these jealous lovers give a fig about the welfare of the person their beloved is kissing, let alone their love interest's happiness? Why don't they just stop being jealous and accept their beloved would be better off with someone else? You'd think their own happiness depended on being with the one they love!
Well, fortunately for them, destiny (the author) favored them, though they experienced the cruel hardship of seeing their loved ones with others. But things didn't work out for loser Snape. He is vilified for loving and not getting over it. How could he get over it when he was responsible in part of the death of the person he loved, and when Dumbledore took multiple opportunities to remind him of that?
I appreciate that Snape was not nice, that he was not suited to teaching, that he was not fair in judging Harry by the standard of James Potter, that he didn't help matters by being open with his assessment of Harry, that he remained petty and jealous and stuck in the past until the end -- like almost every other HP character! Why does he get judged more harshly than the others?
I think there is a lot of cognitive dissonance going on with HP fans. They've invested so much in the books and no matter what, the series is going to live up to their pre-expectations, even if excuses have to be made for the characters and the author in order to accomplish this. Fans don't even recognize that they are making excuses. They read a series where the outcome was determined from the first book, with the expectation that Harry would grow to be a glorious hero, get the glittering girl, and save the Wizarding World for all time, defeating his enemies, who many pegged as Snape and Draco more than Voldemort, in the "best" way. Didn't this happen?
To be fair, Snape fans do this, too, reinforcing their readings to make Snape the central character no matter what. Still, most Snape fan acknowledge his failings, usually followed by an explanation of why they existed. I'm a Snape fan. I can make excuses for him in my sleep. Some people do that with Hermione. I just don't know...
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Date: 2011-04-11 11:59 am (UTC)I never said otherwise, which is why I'm so bemused with others trying to rope in the other HP characters. I presented my definition - *mine* - of what constitutes 'true love'. Snape failed that test.
I never said a word about how the other HP characters measured up. It's been funny to see people here try and pull everyone else down to Snape's level. Maybe they are just as bad, maybe not, but it has no bearing on how Snape measures up to my independent metric.
So, this would be Lily dying for her son, Harry breaking up with Ginny to keep her safe, Harry choosing to die in the unexamined belief that those he loves would be spared ...
Oh, gawd, Rowling's writing was so bad it's hard to push through it and honestly evaluate those cases against the "Brad measurement o' love".
Lily, I suppose; the gist of her non-defence was that she wanted to lay down as an alternative sacrifice. So, yes, I'd say so.
The Harry/Ginny thing ... gawd, so badly written. And the 'keeping her safe' thing just didn't make sense at all. But *if* that was the case, then yes, I guess so. But at a much more trite, childish and temporary degree.
Harry sacrificing himself, sure. Although by that stage he was just doing what he'd been programmed to do.
Severus going against psycho Voldemort to his deadly enemy, Dumbledore, to keep Lily safe
But (a) keeping her safe was NOT putting the interests of Lily ahead of his own!! He was infatuated with Lily, he wanted her to live ... for *himself*! Plus there's no clear penalty to Snape in his trotting off to Dumbledore.
So there you go, a clear difference. Plus we know Snape isn't thinking of Lily, only himself, because otherwise he would want to save her family - my main point.
Severus serving the rest of his unhappy life as Dumbledore's servant and spy to atone for Lily's death
Karen - I think, after her histrionics - suggested that Snape's love for Lily might have evolved to the heights necessary to pass the 'Brad test' *after* Lily died. Maybe, but there's no real evidence for that.
Severus giving Harry his memories instead of trying to save himself
He wasn't trying to 'save himself' before Harry conveniently presented himself, was he?
The hallmark of true love in this series isn't selflessness, it's jealousy.
Oh boy, I agree with you there 1000%. I regularly complain about it. I do think Rowling's got some sick twisted idea of 'love', given as how most of it is founded on or demonstrated by acts of jealousy. Horrible. The woman really had no other ideas on how to portray young 'love'. According to her Ginny - the girl who was jealous of females close to Harry all throughout the last book - is his 'soulmate'. Ridiculous.
Why does he get judged more harshly than the others?
In my case I just find it unrealistic to believe that a grown-up man suffered under two taskmasters for 20 years, torture and other deprivations, all for his
lovecrush on a teenage girl who not only spurned his advances but married his worst enemy and bore that enemy a son. Not once, not for a minute, over all those years, taking up with another woman, giving in under pressure, etc.I like the idea, I really do. But I just didn't see his non-true-love for Lily sufficient to prop all that up. Like most of everything else she wrote Rowling just failed to properly build the foundations for this very important part of the platform for her story.
I think there is a lot of cognitive dissonance going on with HP fans.
I didn't know what 'cognitive dissonance' was until a year or two ago when I came across it in analysing some of the prominent pro-Jo fangirl zombies with others online. It's incredible how they turn a blind eye to so much. Sad to see (but amusing too!).
I accept much/most of what people here say about Snape. A lot of it does buck the simplistic "what we *know* Jo was tryng to say, even if the books say otherwise" movement. It's just these couple of points we're discussing now where I don't think there's sufficient evidence to gainsay my opinions.
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Date: 2011-04-11 04:42 pm (UTC)So there you go, a clear difference. Plus we know Snape isn't thinking of Lily, only himself, because otherwise he would want to save her family - my main point.
I don't have the books here (yay), but I don't recall him saying, "keep her safe for me." You are reading your interpretation of the character into the scene. Sure, her safety is his primary concern. On some level, she means everything to him. I don't blame him for that.
He does mention her family, in fact. He says something like, "Voldemort is going to kill them all." He was going to say more, but Dumbledore interrupted him to put words in his mouth! We don't know what he was going to say. Maybe it was, "Save her so I can ease my way into her life, as I'm sure she'll abandon her husband and child for me." Maybe it was, "Save her family, too, as that will make her happy." We don't know. Because I see him subordinate his voice to hers when they are children and teens, and as he acts selflessly throughout the books, according to my perception, as he put himself in great danger to save her life, I don't think he acted out of selfish motives. There were other ways to get what he wanted, if what he wanted was Lily.
Everyone is entitled to their reading of the character. However, when it is based on prejudice more than evidence, it is hard for me to follow along. Point to me the incontrovertible evidence in the books, beyond hearsay and moments of frustration (and personal prejudging), of the times Severus was lustful or tried to dominate Lily.
As for bringing in other characters, I did that to point out that there is a double standard in judging them. This is endemic in HP fandom. These books encourage double standards based on prejudice, which drives so many people around the bend. You want to talk about Snape as a creep and that's all she wrote. Fine. At this point, I loathe pretty much all the HP characters.
He wasn't trying to 'save himself' before Harry conveniently presented himself, was he?
In my recollection, he was fingering the wound, as if trying to stop the bleeding.
In my case I just find it unrealistic to believe that a grown-up man suffered under two taskmasters for 20 years, torture and other deprivations, all for his
lovecrush on a teenage girl who not only spurned his advances but married his worst enemy and bore that enemy a son. Not once, not for a minute, over all those years, taking up with another woman, giving in under pressure, etc.I like the idea, I really do. But I just didn't see his non-true-love for Lily sufficient to prop all that up. Like most of everything else she wrote Rowling just failed to properly build the foundations for this very important part of the platform for her story.
I find it unrealistic that it was all for Lily, too. She wasn't even that great a friend to him. Lily-love almost ruined Snape's character for me. I knew JKR was going to go there, because it was pretty obvious and my faith in her writing was just that bad. She sunk below even my abysmal expectations. Poorly done, JKR.
Taking it for what it was, the man had serious issues in relating to others and valuing himself. Lily was probably the only one he let in, and then he lost her in the worst possible ways. Looking at the whole of his existence, I think she was just the springboard for his fall and his later betterment, for his growth into a more selfless actor.
But, yeah, it's horrible, hackneyed writing. The latter books are tossed-off messes, which is why I mostly try to stay out of fandom these days. Snape keeps pulling me back in.
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Date: 2011-04-11 05:41 pm (UTC)In my recollection, he was fingering the wound, as if trying to stop the bleeding.
Yup. The text:
[Harry] did not know why he was doing it, why he was approaching the dying man: he did not know what he felt as he saw Snape's white face, and the fingers trying to staunch the bloody wound at his neck.