GOF Chapter 14: The Unforgivable Curses
Apr. 1st, 2011 08:38 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
oryx_leucoryx posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
deathtocapslock(or - curses which can be unforgivable or gallant, depending on who casts them on whom)
My sporks may become more sporadic, nor will I be responding as much as I have so far, as Real Life is becoming more demanding. I still hope to create opportunities for discussions among you. Enjoy!
By the third day of classes Neville melted his 6th cauldron. Was that 6 in one lesson or the 6th since he started at Hogwarts? In any case, he disemboweled horned toads for detention. But since horned toads are actually some species of lizard I don't think his near nervous collapse had to do with thoughts on Trevor, just the effort of a repetitive, unpleasant task.
It isn't the fourth year running that Severus 'failed' to get the DADA job, Harry. The world was not created the day you entered Hogwarts.
Severus is avoiding 'Moody''s eyes. Is the real Moody a Legilimens? I think this avoidance supports Moody's involvement in Severus' interrogation during or after VoldieWar I.
Real-Moody's choice of textbook 'The Dark Forces: A guide to Self-Protection' is the same book Quirrell assigned to them in first year. Maybe that's the standard DADA text back from Prof Merrythought's days. At any rate, I'm wondering now about Umbridge's claim that Quirrell's lessons were age-appropriate. Well, maybe it was a very thick book, with sections for each year.
But 'Moody' is much cooler - he is not going to teach from the book at all! (He's just the opposite of Umbridge, who wanted the students to have books out and wands away.) Yes! He is going to bring them up to scratch about what wizards can do to each other! After some 12 years under Imperius, he gets to demonstrate Dark Arts in front of admiring students! Oh, how Barty is going to enjoy himself this year!
Yes, Barty, you owe one to Ron's dad. (I wonder if Arthur ever contemplated how his shenanigans assisted Voldemort's return. I wish he admitted to it when he claimed Percy was being recruited as a spy. If he gave his example of being used without his knowledge it might have gone over better than open accusation.) Barty, your retirement will be much quieter than you think.
Aha, the Ministry approves of demonstrating illegal Dark curses to 6th years like the twins. But 'Moody' claims to have Albus' approval to accelerate the curriculum a bit. Knowing Albus' attitude to the Ministry I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
Arthur *would* know about Imperius. As one who dealt with victims of it or as a victim himself? Alas, Imperiurized!Arthur was never confirmed.
"Think it's funny, do you? You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?" That will be put to test next lesson. Interesting that it is a DE who makes the students think of the difference in perspective between a spectator and a victim. Of course he is not just a perpetrator but a former victim himself.
"I could make it jump out of the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats ..." - Thanks to Elkins for pointing out those were exactly Barty's fears - that his father would force him to commit suicide. Especially after the QWC, when it turned out he could throw the curse off and Winky was no longer around to supervise him.
I can see how practice can help recognize when one is under Imperius and therefore one needs to resist it, but how does one avoid being hit by it? Perhaps Barty was trying to give the students a false sense of security - imagining they'd be able to recognize the wand movement or the beginning of the incantation?
(BTW Ron only knew one Unforgivable Curse, and he wasn't completely certain about that one either. I guess Arthur never mentioned the other 2? Nor did, say, the AK come up in the context of how Molly's brothers died?)
It is so creepy to know that it is Barty inviting Neville to speak about the Cruciatus. Yes, it was popular once. With you. (Don't worry, it wasn't the spider Hermione was being compassionate for. Still, I like it that she opposed a teacher for an upset classmate.)
OK, in a class that includes several purebloods and at least one wizarding-raised half-blood, how come Hermione is the only one who knows about the AK?
Harry is the only one who survived the AK. Unless you count all those who managed to duck behind something or conjure a blocking object in time.
The use of any Unforgivable on a fellow human being earns you a life sentence in Azkaban. Casting them on spiders is fine. As well as on human beings who aren't your fellows, I suppose. That can sometimes be gallant, if you are the right kind of person.
Oh, how the Gryffindors enjoyed the demonstration of Dark Arts in class! A pity Hogwarts only teaches defense, really!
If Neville and Harry (and Hermione, of course) were disturbed by the class but Ron wasn't - does this mean Imperiurized!Arthur is false?
Now I'm wondering how this lesson went with the 4th year Slytherins. Did they know the names of the Unforgivables? Did they pretend not to know? Did 'Moody' taunt Draco with the Imperius Curse? Whom did he taunt with the others?
'Moody' invites Neville to tea. So spooky when one knows who that is. I wonder how Neville reflects on his interactions with 'Moody' later on, when he learns the truth. Because Harry is completely unperturbed that it was a DE who gave him the idea to become an Auror.
Moody attacks first, asks questions later. Does anyone need more evidence the real one was a Gryffindor?
Oh, Neville received a book about water plants. Which Harry will need later that year. But as Neville is mostly invisible to Harry the book won't be of any help.
Barty's act is going fine - Harry is now comparing him to Remus.
Harry and Ron are making up predictions for Divination. Oddly they actually do reflect the events of the coming year, though on a more extended schedule: danger of burns - may be about the skrewts, as Ron says, but also about the dragon Harry will face in almost 3 months. Losing a treasured possession - foreshadows the second task. Getting stabbed in the back by someone Harry thought was a friend - Ron's reaction to Harry's name emerging from the goblet, or 'Moody' turning out to be a DE who attempts to kill Harry? I'm not sure what losing a fight or a bet were about, though this is Hogwarts so there's always a lot of fighting going on, and of course this is the year of gambling.
Since Hermione isn't around to tell them off, Crookshanks is doing it for her. Why don't you go snarling at 'Moody', Crookshanks?
The twins are conspiring about blackmailing Ludo, again. (No, Crookshanks doesn't care about that either.)
Ron seems to be drowning twice. Well, he will be underwater for hours on end. Does this count? OTOH Harry dying by decapitation is a bit of a stretch - Voldmeort likes the AK, that leaves the victim's body intact.
Here comes SPEW, with 50 badges! Ron is treasurer, because he is so financially responsible and Harry is secretary, because Hermione said so.
Hermione's research revealed that elves have been enslaved for centuries, but not anything about what magic is involved to enforce their status. She came up with goals for her campaign without any input from the elves themselves, which shows just how much she believes in treating them as persons with wills of their own.
Hedwig is back with Sirius' reply. It took her under 2 weeks to fly from Surrey to whichever tropical location Sirius was staying at and back to Scotland. Sirius decides that things are serious enough to justify his return, but Harry blows it off. Doesn't he remember that Peter escaped? That Albus believed Trelawney's prophecy about him returning Voldemort to power was true? Wouldn't that put him in danger? (And not only him...)
Later we will learn that Sirius also reported about Harry's dream to Albus. So at this moment Albus knows the following: Peter left Hogwarts in June, probably on his way to Albania. Bertha Jorkins disappeared in Albania not long afterwards. Tom left Albania (must have been reported by Albus' 'sources') and must have arrived in Britain recently. Albus may already be aware of Frank Bryce's disappearance in Little Hangleton, (Or he may find out this tidbit later on.) Also, someone loyal to Voldemort was (probably) present at the QWC.
My sporks may become more sporadic, nor will I be responding as much as I have so far, as Real Life is becoming more demanding. I still hope to create opportunities for discussions among you. Enjoy!
By the third day of classes Neville melted his 6th cauldron. Was that 6 in one lesson or the 6th since he started at Hogwarts? In any case, he disemboweled horned toads for detention. But since horned toads are actually some species of lizard I don't think his near nervous collapse had to do with thoughts on Trevor, just the effort of a repetitive, unpleasant task.
It isn't the fourth year running that Severus 'failed' to get the DADA job, Harry. The world was not created the day you entered Hogwarts.
Severus is avoiding 'Moody''s eyes. Is the real Moody a Legilimens? I think this avoidance supports Moody's involvement in Severus' interrogation during or after VoldieWar I.
Real-Moody's choice of textbook 'The Dark Forces: A guide to Self-Protection' is the same book Quirrell assigned to them in first year. Maybe that's the standard DADA text back from Prof Merrythought's days. At any rate, I'm wondering now about Umbridge's claim that Quirrell's lessons were age-appropriate. Well, maybe it was a very thick book, with sections for each year.
But 'Moody' is much cooler - he is not going to teach from the book at all! (He's just the opposite of Umbridge, who wanted the students to have books out and wands away.) Yes! He is going to bring them up to scratch about what wizards can do to each other! After some 12 years under Imperius, he gets to demonstrate Dark Arts in front of admiring students! Oh, how Barty is going to enjoy himself this year!
Yes, Barty, you owe one to Ron's dad. (I wonder if Arthur ever contemplated how his shenanigans assisted Voldemort's return. I wish he admitted to it when he claimed Percy was being recruited as a spy. If he gave his example of being used without his knowledge it might have gone over better than open accusation.) Barty, your retirement will be much quieter than you think.
Aha, the Ministry approves of demonstrating illegal Dark curses to 6th years like the twins. But 'Moody' claims to have Albus' approval to accelerate the curriculum a bit. Knowing Albus' attitude to the Ministry I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
Arthur *would* know about Imperius. As one who dealt with victims of it or as a victim himself? Alas, Imperiurized!Arthur was never confirmed.
"Think it's funny, do you? You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?" That will be put to test next lesson. Interesting that it is a DE who makes the students think of the difference in perspective between a spectator and a victim. Of course he is not just a perpetrator but a former victim himself.
"I could make it jump out of the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats ..." - Thanks to Elkins for pointing out those were exactly Barty's fears - that his father would force him to commit suicide. Especially after the QWC, when it turned out he could throw the curse off and Winky was no longer around to supervise him.
I can see how practice can help recognize when one is under Imperius and therefore one needs to resist it, but how does one avoid being hit by it? Perhaps Barty was trying to give the students a false sense of security - imagining they'd be able to recognize the wand movement or the beginning of the incantation?
(BTW Ron only knew one Unforgivable Curse, and he wasn't completely certain about that one either. I guess Arthur never mentioned the other 2? Nor did, say, the AK come up in the context of how Molly's brothers died?)
It is so creepy to know that it is Barty inviting Neville to speak about the Cruciatus. Yes, it was popular once. With you. (Don't worry, it wasn't the spider Hermione was being compassionate for. Still, I like it that she opposed a teacher for an upset classmate.)
OK, in a class that includes several purebloods and at least one wizarding-raised half-blood, how come Hermione is the only one who knows about the AK?
Harry is the only one who survived the AK. Unless you count all those who managed to duck behind something or conjure a blocking object in time.
The use of any Unforgivable on a fellow human being earns you a life sentence in Azkaban. Casting them on spiders is fine. As well as on human beings who aren't your fellows, I suppose. That can sometimes be gallant, if you are the right kind of person.
Oh, how the Gryffindors enjoyed the demonstration of Dark Arts in class! A pity Hogwarts only teaches defense, really!
If Neville and Harry (and Hermione, of course) were disturbed by the class but Ron wasn't - does this mean Imperiurized!Arthur is false?
Now I'm wondering how this lesson went with the 4th year Slytherins. Did they know the names of the Unforgivables? Did they pretend not to know? Did 'Moody' taunt Draco with the Imperius Curse? Whom did he taunt with the others?
'Moody' invites Neville to tea. So spooky when one knows who that is. I wonder how Neville reflects on his interactions with 'Moody' later on, when he learns the truth. Because Harry is completely unperturbed that it was a DE who gave him the idea to become an Auror.
Moody attacks first, asks questions later. Does anyone need more evidence the real one was a Gryffindor?
Oh, Neville received a book about water plants. Which Harry will need later that year. But as Neville is mostly invisible to Harry the book won't be of any help.
Barty's act is going fine - Harry is now comparing him to Remus.
Harry and Ron are making up predictions for Divination. Oddly they actually do reflect the events of the coming year, though on a more extended schedule: danger of burns - may be about the skrewts, as Ron says, but also about the dragon Harry will face in almost 3 months. Losing a treasured possession - foreshadows the second task. Getting stabbed in the back by someone Harry thought was a friend - Ron's reaction to Harry's name emerging from the goblet, or 'Moody' turning out to be a DE who attempts to kill Harry? I'm not sure what losing a fight or a bet were about, though this is Hogwarts so there's always a lot of fighting going on, and of course this is the year of gambling.
Since Hermione isn't around to tell them off, Crookshanks is doing it for her. Why don't you go snarling at 'Moody', Crookshanks?
The twins are conspiring about blackmailing Ludo, again. (No, Crookshanks doesn't care about that either.)
Ron seems to be drowning twice. Well, he will be underwater for hours on end. Does this count? OTOH Harry dying by decapitation is a bit of a stretch - Voldmeort likes the AK, that leaves the victim's body intact.
Here comes SPEW, with 50 badges! Ron is treasurer, because he is so financially responsible and Harry is secretary, because Hermione said so.
Hermione's research revealed that elves have been enslaved for centuries, but not anything about what magic is involved to enforce their status. She came up with goals for her campaign without any input from the elves themselves, which shows just how much she believes in treating them as persons with wills of their own.
Hedwig is back with Sirius' reply. It took her under 2 weeks to fly from Surrey to whichever tropical location Sirius was staying at and back to Scotland. Sirius decides that things are serious enough to justify his return, but Harry blows it off. Doesn't he remember that Peter escaped? That Albus believed Trelawney's prophecy about him returning Voldemort to power was true? Wouldn't that put him in danger? (And not only him...)
Later we will learn that Sirius also reported about Harry's dream to Albus. So at this moment Albus knows the following: Peter left Hogwarts in June, probably on his way to Albania. Bertha Jorkins disappeared in Albania not long afterwards. Tom left Albania (must have been reported by Albus' 'sources') and must have arrived in Britain recently. Albus may already be aware of Frank Bryce's disappearance in Little Hangleton, (Or he may find out this tidbit later on.) Also, someone loyal to Voldemort was (probably) present at the QWC.
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no subject
Date: 2011-04-12 03:57 pm (UTC)"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"
Er. No, you've missed my point, and cited Dumbledore's railroading as a reason for my being wrong. (Dumbledore's steering of the conversation does not represent Snape's own thoughts, and pointing out that Dumbledore was Snape's enemy at the time doesn't make it any more likely that Dumbledore is accurately representing his thoughts. Wouldn't it be less likely, if anything?)
Snape wasn't acting to protect her whole family when he asked Voldemort to spare her, I'll grant you that. Of course, he couldn't exactly ask Voldemort to spare Harry, because killing Harry was the whole point for Voldemort. Asking Voldemort not to kill Harry would have been counterproductive -- since Voldemort would have responded to that by killing Snape, and not even considering sparing Lily.
As soon as Snape went to Dumbledore, he *was* acting to protect the whole family, because he can't possibly have believed that Dumbledore would protect *only* Lily, unless Snape was a moron.
I'm not sure whether the blame comes in, here. It isn't as though Snape decided that asking Voldemort to spare just Lily was enough. My entire point is that Snape can't be considered to be acting only to save Lily in asking Dumbledore. Not for one *second* of the conversation, not unless he's a moron.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-24 03:25 am (UTC)But there still isn't enough steering to pardon Snape. It seems clear that Snape's first thought was only for the target of his crush:
"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"
Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.
"Hide them all, then,” he croaked. “Keep her – them – safe. Please."
"Hide them all, then." I find that 'then' quite damning. The deaths of Lily's husband and child? I hadn't thought about them, okay, save them as well, then. The 'then' shows that the notion of saving James and Harry is a second step, a new version of Snape's original goal.
Furthermore, if Snape *had* intended to save all three Potters - which I contend he would want to do, had he truly loved Lily - then, surely, the obvious thing to say would have been "But, yes, I *do* care!". Something along those lines. Some sort of rebuttal. Some correction of Dumbledore's *wrong* assumption, which lead to the 'disgust'.
But no. Snape offers no correction. He *accepts* the accusation of caring only for Lily, of having no conscience as to the other two Potters' lives. He doesn't reject the accusation. Instead he accepts it - guilty as charged - and changes his request to version 2, oh, save them as well, then.
Snape was infatuated with Lily, he 'loved' her to some degree, but it wasn't full blown "anything to make her happy" love.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-24 06:24 am (UTC)Snape could defend himself, but Snape, unlike Dumbledore, thinks that there are more important things than discussing *him*. Snape is not primarily worried about himself in that scene (pretty clear, since he's risking his life for Lily), and Dumbledore has pretty clearly shown that his mind is made up.
Snape, unlike us, isn't in fandom, so he doesn't debate everything endlessly before moving on.
I guess you're concluding that Snape's a moron, though, since according to your account, he only accepted that he was acting to protect James and Harry halfway through the conversation.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-24 07:28 am (UTC)Yes, he could. One single sentence even.
-- he only accepted that he was acting to protect James and Harry halfway through the conversation.
He only accepted that his worst enemy (plus son) being saved was a related 'cost' to saving Lily, yes.
Which is something he could have realised going in, yes. But in his rush/desperation his true priority/goal was made evident.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-24 06:24 am (UTC)No. Because his moral standing with the twinkling fool isn't the point. That kind of rebuttal is something *I* would have offered because I'm that kind of an idiot. And I'm argumentative. But a person with sense and a mission to accomplish wouldn't argue about something that derails the conversation from lives in need of saving to whom he cares about and other less relevant stuff. Similarly I can hear Severus' exasperation when he gets to the 'Hide them all then' part.
My parents always talk about coming to visit me, buying things for me wondering about how I am doing, when they mean the three of us - my husband, my daughter and myself. And similarly my MIL talks of my husband when she means all three of us. If either my husband or myself insisted everyone got mentioned we'd come across badly.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-24 07:34 am (UTC)A person with sense and a mission to accomplish - a person with the mighty intellect of Snape - would have fronted up to Dumbledore at the start begging for help in saving the Potter family. All three of them. Dumbledore's disgust, the whole thing, would have been averted.
But no. Snape rushed in, unthinking, and thus his true goal was revealed - he was only thinking of Lily. Not her happiness, not of the man she loved, not of her child, just his - Snape's - Lily.
The Snape with the brains that you laud would not have made the slip he did in the first place. But he *did* make that slip. Which showed that his feelings for Lily weren't of the highest order of (romantic) love.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-24 11:08 pm (UTC)Since my family members make that 'slip' routinely I don't see it as a problem. I'm sure that if my entire family were in any kind of danger my parents (and probably other relatives) would talk of the danger to me and my in-laws about danger to my husband. But they would mean me or my husband (as the case may be) as a proxy to the three of us.
no subject
Date: 2011-04-24 12:21 pm (UTC)Snape was infatuated with Lily, he 'loved' her to some degree, but it wasn't full blown "anything to make her happy" love.
I would be happy with a million dollars and a new corvette, but nobody as yet has done anything to prove their love to me.