GOF Chapter 14: The Unforgivable Curses
Apr. 1st, 2011 08:38 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
oryx_leucoryx posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
deathtocapslock(or - curses which can be unforgivable or gallant, depending on who casts them on whom)
My sporks may become more sporadic, nor will I be responding as much as I have so far, as Real Life is becoming more demanding. I still hope to create opportunities for discussions among you. Enjoy!
By the third day of classes Neville melted his 6th cauldron. Was that 6 in one lesson or the 6th since he started at Hogwarts? In any case, he disemboweled horned toads for detention. But since horned toads are actually some species of lizard I don't think his near nervous collapse had to do with thoughts on Trevor, just the effort of a repetitive, unpleasant task.
It isn't the fourth year running that Severus 'failed' to get the DADA job, Harry. The world was not created the day you entered Hogwarts.
Severus is avoiding 'Moody''s eyes. Is the real Moody a Legilimens? I think this avoidance supports Moody's involvement in Severus' interrogation during or after VoldieWar I.
Real-Moody's choice of textbook 'The Dark Forces: A guide to Self-Protection' is the same book Quirrell assigned to them in first year. Maybe that's the standard DADA text back from Prof Merrythought's days. At any rate, I'm wondering now about Umbridge's claim that Quirrell's lessons were age-appropriate. Well, maybe it was a very thick book, with sections for each year.
But 'Moody' is much cooler - he is not going to teach from the book at all! (He's just the opposite of Umbridge, who wanted the students to have books out and wands away.) Yes! He is going to bring them up to scratch about what wizards can do to each other! After some 12 years under Imperius, he gets to demonstrate Dark Arts in front of admiring students! Oh, how Barty is going to enjoy himself this year!
Yes, Barty, you owe one to Ron's dad. (I wonder if Arthur ever contemplated how his shenanigans assisted Voldemort's return. I wish he admitted to it when he claimed Percy was being recruited as a spy. If he gave his example of being used without his knowledge it might have gone over better than open accusation.) Barty, your retirement will be much quieter than you think.
Aha, the Ministry approves of demonstrating illegal Dark curses to 6th years like the twins. But 'Moody' claims to have Albus' approval to accelerate the curriculum a bit. Knowing Albus' attitude to the Ministry I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
Arthur *would* know about Imperius. As one who dealt with victims of it or as a victim himself? Alas, Imperiurized!Arthur was never confirmed.
"Think it's funny, do you? You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?" That will be put to test next lesson. Interesting that it is a DE who makes the students think of the difference in perspective between a spectator and a victim. Of course he is not just a perpetrator but a former victim himself.
"I could make it jump out of the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats ..." - Thanks to Elkins for pointing out those were exactly Barty's fears - that his father would force him to commit suicide. Especially after the QWC, when it turned out he could throw the curse off and Winky was no longer around to supervise him.
I can see how practice can help recognize when one is under Imperius and therefore one needs to resist it, but how does one avoid being hit by it? Perhaps Barty was trying to give the students a false sense of security - imagining they'd be able to recognize the wand movement or the beginning of the incantation?
(BTW Ron only knew one Unforgivable Curse, and he wasn't completely certain about that one either. I guess Arthur never mentioned the other 2? Nor did, say, the AK come up in the context of how Molly's brothers died?)
It is so creepy to know that it is Barty inviting Neville to speak about the Cruciatus. Yes, it was popular once. With you. (Don't worry, it wasn't the spider Hermione was being compassionate for. Still, I like it that she opposed a teacher for an upset classmate.)
OK, in a class that includes several purebloods and at least one wizarding-raised half-blood, how come Hermione is the only one who knows about the AK?
Harry is the only one who survived the AK. Unless you count all those who managed to duck behind something or conjure a blocking object in time.
The use of any Unforgivable on a fellow human being earns you a life sentence in Azkaban. Casting them on spiders is fine. As well as on human beings who aren't your fellows, I suppose. That can sometimes be gallant, if you are the right kind of person.
Oh, how the Gryffindors enjoyed the demonstration of Dark Arts in class! A pity Hogwarts only teaches defense, really!
If Neville and Harry (and Hermione, of course) were disturbed by the class but Ron wasn't - does this mean Imperiurized!Arthur is false?
Now I'm wondering how this lesson went with the 4th year Slytherins. Did they know the names of the Unforgivables? Did they pretend not to know? Did 'Moody' taunt Draco with the Imperius Curse? Whom did he taunt with the others?
'Moody' invites Neville to tea. So spooky when one knows who that is. I wonder how Neville reflects on his interactions with 'Moody' later on, when he learns the truth. Because Harry is completely unperturbed that it was a DE who gave him the idea to become an Auror.
Moody attacks first, asks questions later. Does anyone need more evidence the real one was a Gryffindor?
Oh, Neville received a book about water plants. Which Harry will need later that year. But as Neville is mostly invisible to Harry the book won't be of any help.
Barty's act is going fine - Harry is now comparing him to Remus.
Harry and Ron are making up predictions for Divination. Oddly they actually do reflect the events of the coming year, though on a more extended schedule: danger of burns - may be about the skrewts, as Ron says, but also about the dragon Harry will face in almost 3 months. Losing a treasured possession - foreshadows the second task. Getting stabbed in the back by someone Harry thought was a friend - Ron's reaction to Harry's name emerging from the goblet, or 'Moody' turning out to be a DE who attempts to kill Harry? I'm not sure what losing a fight or a bet were about, though this is Hogwarts so there's always a lot of fighting going on, and of course this is the year of gambling.
Since Hermione isn't around to tell them off, Crookshanks is doing it for her. Why don't you go snarling at 'Moody', Crookshanks?
The twins are conspiring about blackmailing Ludo, again. (No, Crookshanks doesn't care about that either.)
Ron seems to be drowning twice. Well, he will be underwater for hours on end. Does this count? OTOH Harry dying by decapitation is a bit of a stretch - Voldmeort likes the AK, that leaves the victim's body intact.
Here comes SPEW, with 50 badges! Ron is treasurer, because he is so financially responsible and Harry is secretary, because Hermione said so.
Hermione's research revealed that elves have been enslaved for centuries, but not anything about what magic is involved to enforce their status. She came up with goals for her campaign without any input from the elves themselves, which shows just how much she believes in treating them as persons with wills of their own.
Hedwig is back with Sirius' reply. It took her under 2 weeks to fly from Surrey to whichever tropical location Sirius was staying at and back to Scotland. Sirius decides that things are serious enough to justify his return, but Harry blows it off. Doesn't he remember that Peter escaped? That Albus believed Trelawney's prophecy about him returning Voldemort to power was true? Wouldn't that put him in danger? (And not only him...)
Later we will learn that Sirius also reported about Harry's dream to Albus. So at this moment Albus knows the following: Peter left Hogwarts in June, probably on his way to Albania. Bertha Jorkins disappeared in Albania not long afterwards. Tom left Albania (must have been reported by Albus' 'sources') and must have arrived in Britain recently. Albus may already be aware of Frank Bryce's disappearance in Little Hangleton, (Or he may find out this tidbit later on.) Also, someone loyal to Voldemort was (probably) present at the QWC.
My sporks may become more sporadic, nor will I be responding as much as I have so far, as Real Life is becoming more demanding. I still hope to create opportunities for discussions among you. Enjoy!
By the third day of classes Neville melted his 6th cauldron. Was that 6 in one lesson or the 6th since he started at Hogwarts? In any case, he disemboweled horned toads for detention. But since horned toads are actually some species of lizard I don't think his near nervous collapse had to do with thoughts on Trevor, just the effort of a repetitive, unpleasant task.
It isn't the fourth year running that Severus 'failed' to get the DADA job, Harry. The world was not created the day you entered Hogwarts.
Severus is avoiding 'Moody''s eyes. Is the real Moody a Legilimens? I think this avoidance supports Moody's involvement in Severus' interrogation during or after VoldieWar I.
Real-Moody's choice of textbook 'The Dark Forces: A guide to Self-Protection' is the same book Quirrell assigned to them in first year. Maybe that's the standard DADA text back from Prof Merrythought's days. At any rate, I'm wondering now about Umbridge's claim that Quirrell's lessons were age-appropriate. Well, maybe it was a very thick book, with sections for each year.
But 'Moody' is much cooler - he is not going to teach from the book at all! (He's just the opposite of Umbridge, who wanted the students to have books out and wands away.) Yes! He is going to bring them up to scratch about what wizards can do to each other! After some 12 years under Imperius, he gets to demonstrate Dark Arts in front of admiring students! Oh, how Barty is going to enjoy himself this year!
Yes, Barty, you owe one to Ron's dad. (I wonder if Arthur ever contemplated how his shenanigans assisted Voldemort's return. I wish he admitted to it when he claimed Percy was being recruited as a spy. If he gave his example of being used without his knowledge it might have gone over better than open accusation.) Barty, your retirement will be much quieter than you think.
Aha, the Ministry approves of demonstrating illegal Dark curses to 6th years like the twins. But 'Moody' claims to have Albus' approval to accelerate the curriculum a bit. Knowing Albus' attitude to the Ministry I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.
Arthur *would* know about Imperius. As one who dealt with victims of it or as a victim himself? Alas, Imperiurized!Arthur was never confirmed.
"Think it's funny, do you? You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?" That will be put to test next lesson. Interesting that it is a DE who makes the students think of the difference in perspective between a spectator and a victim. Of course he is not just a perpetrator but a former victim himself.
"I could make it jump out of the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats ..." - Thanks to Elkins for pointing out those were exactly Barty's fears - that his father would force him to commit suicide. Especially after the QWC, when it turned out he could throw the curse off and Winky was no longer around to supervise him.
I can see how practice can help recognize when one is under Imperius and therefore one needs to resist it, but how does one avoid being hit by it? Perhaps Barty was trying to give the students a false sense of security - imagining they'd be able to recognize the wand movement or the beginning of the incantation?
(BTW Ron only knew one Unforgivable Curse, and he wasn't completely certain about that one either. I guess Arthur never mentioned the other 2? Nor did, say, the AK come up in the context of how Molly's brothers died?)
It is so creepy to know that it is Barty inviting Neville to speak about the Cruciatus. Yes, it was popular once. With you. (Don't worry, it wasn't the spider Hermione was being compassionate for. Still, I like it that she opposed a teacher for an upset classmate.)
OK, in a class that includes several purebloods and at least one wizarding-raised half-blood, how come Hermione is the only one who knows about the AK?
Harry is the only one who survived the AK. Unless you count all those who managed to duck behind something or conjure a blocking object in time.
The use of any Unforgivable on a fellow human being earns you a life sentence in Azkaban. Casting them on spiders is fine. As well as on human beings who aren't your fellows, I suppose. That can sometimes be gallant, if you are the right kind of person.
Oh, how the Gryffindors enjoyed the demonstration of Dark Arts in class! A pity Hogwarts only teaches defense, really!
If Neville and Harry (and Hermione, of course) were disturbed by the class but Ron wasn't - does this mean Imperiurized!Arthur is false?
Now I'm wondering how this lesson went with the 4th year Slytherins. Did they know the names of the Unforgivables? Did they pretend not to know? Did 'Moody' taunt Draco with the Imperius Curse? Whom did he taunt with the others?
'Moody' invites Neville to tea. So spooky when one knows who that is. I wonder how Neville reflects on his interactions with 'Moody' later on, when he learns the truth. Because Harry is completely unperturbed that it was a DE who gave him the idea to become an Auror.
Moody attacks first, asks questions later. Does anyone need more evidence the real one was a Gryffindor?
Oh, Neville received a book about water plants. Which Harry will need later that year. But as Neville is mostly invisible to Harry the book won't be of any help.
Barty's act is going fine - Harry is now comparing him to Remus.
Harry and Ron are making up predictions for Divination. Oddly they actually do reflect the events of the coming year, though on a more extended schedule: danger of burns - may be about the skrewts, as Ron says, but also about the dragon Harry will face in almost 3 months. Losing a treasured possession - foreshadows the second task. Getting stabbed in the back by someone Harry thought was a friend - Ron's reaction to Harry's name emerging from the goblet, or 'Moody' turning out to be a DE who attempts to kill Harry? I'm not sure what losing a fight or a bet were about, though this is Hogwarts so there's always a lot of fighting going on, and of course this is the year of gambling.
Since Hermione isn't around to tell them off, Crookshanks is doing it for her. Why don't you go snarling at 'Moody', Crookshanks?
The twins are conspiring about blackmailing Ludo, again. (No, Crookshanks doesn't care about that either.)
Ron seems to be drowning twice. Well, he will be underwater for hours on end. Does this count? OTOH Harry dying by decapitation is a bit of a stretch - Voldmeort likes the AK, that leaves the victim's body intact.
Here comes SPEW, with 50 badges! Ron is treasurer, because he is so financially responsible and Harry is secretary, because Hermione said so.
Hermione's research revealed that elves have been enslaved for centuries, but not anything about what magic is involved to enforce their status. She came up with goals for her campaign without any input from the elves themselves, which shows just how much she believes in treating them as persons with wills of their own.
Hedwig is back with Sirius' reply. It took her under 2 weeks to fly from Surrey to whichever tropical location Sirius was staying at and back to Scotland. Sirius decides that things are serious enough to justify his return, but Harry blows it off. Doesn't he remember that Peter escaped? That Albus believed Trelawney's prophecy about him returning Voldemort to power was true? Wouldn't that put him in danger? (And not only him...)
Later we will learn that Sirius also reported about Harry's dream to Albus. So at this moment Albus knows the following: Peter left Hogwarts in June, probably on his way to Albania. Bertha Jorkins disappeared in Albania not long afterwards. Tom left Albania (must have been reported by Albus' 'sources') and must have arrived in Britain recently. Albus may already be aware of Frank Bryce's disappearance in Little Hangleton, (Or he may find out this tidbit later on.) Also, someone loyal to Voldemort was (probably) present at the QWC.
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Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-24 03:46 am (UTC)He fronts up to Dumbledore, asks to have Lily protected - well, okay, then, all the Potters, if you insist, then - remains a death eater, Voldemort gets zapped. Snape's then let off the hook, he's not sent to Azkaban, he's protected by Dumbledore, he spends the next 14 years being nasty to children, no dark lord to worry about.
Then Riddle returns and Snape starts the spying.
he does the right thing in face of not only physical danger but also in face of knowledge that everyone on the 'good' side will despise him for it
Artificially exaggerated by Rowling's contrived plot - where no-one knew of Snape's true allegiance other than Dumbledore - to a ridiculous degree even - but true enough.
In fact Harry can be pushed to risk death or serious injury with the threat of potential ridicule
Harry's an idiot many times, but (a) that doesn't make Snape a hero, and (b) Harry *does* do some heroic things too, you know.
As Lynn said, when he went to Dumbles he must have realized that if Lily were to be protected chances were James would be too.
No. Your "he must have realised" is just waving your hands over the sentences in that scene and wishing very very hard for an alternative, more favourable interpretation. I've just replied to Lynn; while I wish Dumbledore hadn't kept interrupting the death eater I think it's clear enough that Snape didn't care at all about the male Potters. Which puts him a couple of notches south of fully caring for dear Lily.
I say his actions in all books speak to him having moved well beyond 'saving Harry for Lily's sake' by the time of Harry's arrival at the school, whatever he says to Dumbles.
For me, the 'whatever he says to Dumbles' is much clearer than these actions you speak of (perhaps because I don't have your masterful memory of the canon). His wanting to exact murderous revenge on Sirius is clear in my mind though. :-)
He was an effective and successful teacher.
No way. His treatment of Harry and Neville, his bias against the Gryffindors, etc, all damn him as a teacher. What was the scene were he deliberately drops Harry's potion on the floor, then giving him zero marks? Teacher, Bad, meet Severus Snape.
Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-24 05:45 am (UTC)I consider his heroism to have lasted the entire 7 years of book!canon. The time between his leaving of school and his turning to Albus, which includes all time he had available to be a full-time DE was probably 2.5 years. Questioning Quirrellmort about where his loyalties lied, running to the Shack to face a werewolf about to transform in order to save hundreds of innocent children, rushing to save an unknown other from probable torture in the middle of the night (The Egg and the Eye) are all heroic acts.
The not being a killer is implied by: a) his concern for his own soul b) Albus' response to said concern c) Albus asking him about people he had *seen* die. Albus implied he agrees Severus' soul is yet intact at the time of their conversation, and the choice of asking Severus about people he saw die implies that's as close as he got to acts of murder.
His wanting to exact murderous revenge on Sirius is clear in my mind though. :-)
No, he wanted safety for the kids and justice for himself. If he'd been after revenge Sirius wouldn't have arrived alive and with his soul intact to the castle.
What was the scene were he deliberately drops Harry's potion on the floor, then giving him zero marks?
Ahem, we don't know why that potion fell. And as I'm learning now that my daughter is in middle-school, zero marks for work that isn't in at the right time may be a matter of policy. I find no (or very little) unfairness to Harry, nor bias against Gryffindors in general. I read the situation with Neville as a tragic misunderstanding due to Severus not being aware of Neville's great-uncle Algie and other 'helpful' relatives.
Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-24 03:31 pm (UTC)Can you show us where Snape actually committing murder is shown/stated?
Snape says something to Dumbledore along the lines of not being able to save people that Voldemort or other DEs have killed, and Bellatrix is quite strident about Snape always seeming to get out of doing any of the "dirty work"...
Snape's services for Voldemort seem to have been more organizational, political, undercover, and probably inventive (new spells and potions), than as an in-the-trenches grunt.
he spends the next 14 years being nasty to children
And was quite obviously the most effective Hogwarts staff member or OotP member in actually protecting the children entrusted to his care.
His wanting to exact murderous revenge on Sirius is clear in my mind though. :-)
A quite understandable emotion, considering that Black tried to kill Snape (or at least get him severely maimed and potentially turned into a werewolf) when they were students, and Black was seen as the Potters' betrayer and the immediate cause of Voldemort's being able to find them, and Black had not done anything during his long years in Azkaban to try to prove his innocence.
Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-24 08:36 pm (UTC)No. I'm also getting confused with all of those fanfics where killing is a requirement to become a death eater. Right now I'm not sure even Lucius Malfoy was a murderer.
It makes you wonder, though, doesn't it ... if Voldemort had ordered "kill" at any time between the end of GoF and Snape's death, Snape would have done so, to keep his cover, right?
Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-24 11:23 pm (UTC)Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-25 01:18 am (UTC)Wow, that had me thinking! I'm not too impressed with your Malfoys example, but on the other hand, yes, Harry & Co. never had to worry too much about such things.
Well, Ron *was* worrying about his family right after the wedding attack, but then the death eaters turned into lambs and Ginny went back to school and Arthur went back to work at the ministry in the heart of the bad guy headquarters and ... *shakes head in disbelief*
You've reminded me how - when I read DH - I was a bit surprised, and disappointed, that Harry & Co. didn't try to rescue Luna as soon as they learned of her incarceration:
She beamed, but became solemn at once.
"What about Luna?"
"Well, if they're telling the truth and she's still Alive ---" began Ron.
"Don't say that, don't say it!" squealed Hermione. "She must be alive, she must!"
"Then she'll be in Azkaban, I expect," said Ron. "Whether she survives the place, though…Loads don't…"
"She will," said Harry. He could not bear to contemplate the alternative. "She's tough, Luna, much tougher than you'd think. She's probably teaching all the inmates about Wrackspurts and Nargles."
"I hope you're right," said Hermione.
And that was it. Well, I guess they had their priorities. More camping. And trying to think where the other horcruxes were. When they had exactly zero additional information from the last six months of introspection about the horcruxes. Yeah, okay. Hope you're okay, Luna. :-(
Harry was honest about it, anyway. He "could not bear" to think about Luna's predicament ... so he didn't. :-(
Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-25 02:37 am (UTC)Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-28 06:13 am (UTC)Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-28 07:46 am (UTC)Imagine Voldemort strolling into Hogwarts one day, grabbing the 'known friends of Potter' and holding them to ransom. Okay, there might have been a real chance that Harry would never even know about it, about any ultimatum to show up before their execution, but either way it would have been an interesting test. Either "should I abandon my (fruitless) search and surrender to save my friend(s)" or "it's all my fault that Ginny was executed". :-)
Re: Severus' Undoubtible heroism, part 1 :)
Date: 2011-04-24 11:57 pm (UTC)IIRC, in canon you just had to say you wanted to be a Death Eater and then take the dark mark.
It makes you wonder, though, doesn't it ... if Voldemort had ordered "kill" at any time between the end of GoF and Snape's death, Snape would have done so, to keep his cover, right?
Yes, but considering he'd never ordered Snape to kill before, it wasn't likely to happen...especially when Voldie had more than enough minions who liked doing that sort of thing.