Remus and Sirius as plot-driven characters

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Although neither of them gets much screen-time, I believe that Remus and Sirius are two of the most important characters in the HP series. Their choices, both past and present, drive the whole narrative almost as much as Snape's and Dumbledore's do. However, despite their importance, we are told very little, if anything, about the motivations behind their actions, including several that are quite difficult to understand or sympathize with. The few explanations we are given are, in my opinion, rather inadequate or unbelievable. The problem, I suspect, is that Rowling simply never gave much thought to Remus's or Sirius's motivations when she was developing her story. What they say and do seems to have been determined far more often by the needs of the plot than by any sense of who they are as people--their personalities, their personal histories, their relationships, etc. Even though they are central characters in the story, the plot usually drives their choices, rather than their choices driving the plot.

Why did Remus fail to take his potion at the end of PoA? Because Rowling wanted him to transform into a werewolf and nearly kill the kids. Why did Sirius pull the "prank" on Severus? Because the "life-debt" that resulted between James and Severus provided a red herring for why Severus did so much to protect Harry despite hating James. Why did Remus marry Tonks and have a baby? Because Rowling wanted there to be a new baby orphan at the end of DH. Why didn't Sirius attempt to hire an attorney and get himself exonerated, independently of Dumbledore? Because Rowling wanted to keep Harry stuck at the Dursleys during the summers. We as the readers have to come up with many of our own in-universe explanations for their behavior, for Rowling hardly gives us any. Depending on how we fill in the holes, it's possible to either utterly adore or utterly despise the two characters.

Why didn't Remus tell Dumbledore that Sirius was an animagus and that he knew of secret passageways into Hogwarts? Remus does actually give us an answer to this one, but it's not all that realistic. He says he was too cowardly to admit that he had betrayed Dumbledore's trust as a teenager. It's an explanation that might work if Remus were twelve, but I think it's absolutely ridiculous that a grown adult would risk the lives of several hundred students, particularly Harry, just because he didn't want to disappoint Dumbledore, especially since he could have told the headmaster that Sirius was an animagus without saying anything about their werewolf escapades. Rowling needed Remus to keep his mouth shut for the sake of the plot, but she could have come up with a much better explanation for why he did.... as many of her fans did. Maybe Remus had trouble believing that Sirius was guilty, or he thought that Sirius at least deserved a trial. Maybe the Mauraders all took unbreakable vows to never reveal each others' secrets. Fans have come up with all sorts of interesting and logical reasons for why he didn't say anything.

Remus and Sirius, as presented in canon, come across to me more like plot-devices than actual characters, more like puppets on strings than conceivably real people. I know this is true of other HP characters as well. I've seen numerous similar comments regarding Ginny, for instance. The difference, though, is that Remus's and Sirius's roles help form the core of nearly the entire narrative, starting in 1971, while Ginny, aside from in Harry's second year, is almost completely irrelevant to the overall story. You can pretty much ignore Ginny, if you want. You can't ignore Remus or Sirius.

Comments

[wolf-willow31.livejournal.com]

Remus and Sirius are both extremely important to Harry, so presumably the readers are supposed to like them (and many do). But as you point out, they are very poorly done and the poor readers have to fill in the details from their own imaginations. Which is difficult, given what JRK gives them to work with.

As written, Remus came across (to me at least) as being incredibly indecisive. His failure to take his potion, his failure to tell Dumbledore (or Harry) important facts, and his failure to ever take any meaningful action, all fit that interpretation, and the Tonks thing just topped it off. I could imagine him sitting on the side of his bed wondering, "Do I dare to put my socks on?" I can't imagine how he managed to get himself into the final battle.

Sirius came across as an egotistical jerk who just acts without thinking. Even in his death scene, he's wisecracking with Bellatrix when he ought to be fighting her. But it's totally implausible that he failed to defend himself and just sat in Azkaban for all those years. The fact that he could turn into a dog is supposed to explain why the Dementors didn't affect him during that time, but that isn't really believable, either.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

As written, Remus came across (to me at least) as being incredibly indecisive. His failure to take his potion, his failure to tell Dumbledore (or Harry) important facts, and his failure to ever take any meaningful action, all fit that interpretation, and the Tonks thing just topped it off. I could imagine him sitting on the side of his bed wondering, "Do I dare to put my socks on?" I can't imagine how he managed to get himself into the final battle.


He should have been played by Hugh grant!

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Actually - I wonder sometimes how much of the nasty and unbelievable behavior of her "heroes" can be explained by Rowling's literary models, especially Wuthering Heights. In Severus, she was pretty clearly attempting to rewrite Heathcliff, and Heathcliff had genuine grievances against Hindley, so she needed to give Severus genuine grievances against the Marauders. But she just didn't think it through.

Remus is superficially charming, and, when you look more closely, rather cold, manipulative and selfish. Sirius is an angry hot-head (actually, I think his character is rather well-done, with one huge exception that I'll get to) - loyal, judgemental and impulsive. As an adult, he shows signs of being alcoholic and possibly depressed; some fans have argued convincingly that he's clinically insane. He is, after all, his mother's son.

The unbelievable thing to me isn't the way Sirius behaves as an adult, but his utter failure to realize that his attempt to kill young Severus would also endanger Remus. As for Remus, I can't make him out. He does not strike me as passive, but he does seem to be a weak character. He refuses his potion mostly to torment Severus, but also (I imagine) because it's unpleasant to drink, so that he'd put it off till the last moment. As to his failure to tell Dumbledore - or someone - about the secret passages, it's utterly reprehensible. There is just no possible excuse. The only explanation I've come across that makes sense to me, given what else we see of him, is that Remus is out for revenge on Sirius and wants to keep it private. But - when you see how he actually treats Sirius at the end of POA, that doesn't hang together, either. So, yes, I'd say he's more a plot device than a character.

BTW, I think I stumbled on the key to Sirius's character in this essay:
http://asylums.insanejournal.com/snapedom/161102.html
REmus, however, just baffles and chills me. I tend, these days, to think of Sirius as the best of the Marauders. Not that that's saying much!

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

As to his failure to tell Dumbledore - or someone - about the secret passages, it's utterly reprehensible.

Harry 'n' pals don't do so either. Yet Neville is blamed for the abysmal security. They think that Sirius wouldn't try to enter via Honeydukes, but how busy is it at 3 a.m.?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I do agree that Sirius is more of a real character than Remus is, but that isn't necessarily saying much. I liked your analysis in the essay you linked to. Sirius-as-dog does explain some aspects of his character.

I'm not sure I agree, though, that Sirius-as-dog explains why he put killing Peter above everything else, including protecting Harry or proving his innocence. It would make just as much sense, if not more, for Sirius-as-dog to have made protecting Harry, his pup, his top priority, such as by warning Dumbledore about Scabbers as soon as he escaped Azkaban.

No, I think a better explanation for why Sirius sought vengeance above everything else in PoA is because it made for a more exciting story. What makes this even more telling is that (I'm pretty sure) we never hear Sirius say anything about how much he hates Wormtail and wants to see him dead in either GoF or OoTP, even though this is a driving force behind his behavior in PoA. Instead, it's an aspect of his character that's dropped once it's no longer necessary to the plot.

[oryx_leucoryx]

What makes this even more telling is that (I'm pretty sure) we never hear Sirius say anything about how much he hates Wormtail and wants to see him dead in either GoF or OoTP,

What do you think is going on in his head in GOF when *rats* are the main component of his diet? And he looks good that year - he eats *plenty* of rats. He was living a revenge fantasy the entire year.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

LOL that is a possibility. I've never read it that way before.

I've always thought that his comment about living off rats was meant to show just how desperate he was for food, because rats are often viewed as a food of last resort (though not in all cultures). And that's why he had Harry bring him lots of food from Hogwarts.

And he doesn't look good at the time when he says he's been living off rats.

Sirius was wearing ragged gray robes; the same ones he had been wearing when he had left Azkaban. His black hair was longer than it had been when he had appeared in the fire, and it was untidy and matted once more. He looked very thin.

If he were killing rats for sport, and not because he was starving, I'd more readily agree that he was living out some kind of revenge fantasy.

[oryx_leucoryx]

OK, not that many rats. He was already on the rat diet for several weeks when he appeared in the fire in November.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I think it's more likely that he was looking better at that point because he'd had a few months of freedom in the sunny tropics.

He gave that up and returned to England because he was concerned about Harry.

After living in the cave for a few months, with very little access to food, he was looking awful again.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

How come it's rats though? Rats tend to be more associated with cities but rats out in the wild I don't think are all that easy to catch, out in a cave in the wilderness I'd almost think he'd be more likely to find squirrels, or rabbits or some kinda wild birds around the area than randomly finding a nest of rats.

If he can catch enough rats to eat and live off off as a dog, shouldn't he be able to catch a chickens, or a rabbit or squirrel. Any of those animals should be just as easy to catch in dog form. I don't get Sirius there, as a dog he'd surely be able to find birds, or snatch a couple of chickens, OR HELL, he could have easily went into a muggle town and begged food off someone.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Yes, logically, Sirius shouldn't have any problems getting food since he can hunt and beg for food as a dog. But he clearly is starving in this scene. So we have to ignore logic here and pretend that he has very little access to food.

"Living off of rats," in general, conveys a strong image of just how desperate someone is for food because rat meat is so taboo European cultures.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

"Living off of rats," in general, conveys a strong image of just how desperate someone is for food because rat meat is so taboo European cultures.

Just how much human thought/sensibility does an animagus retain when they are in their animal form?

Does McGonagall forego hunting/eating rodents when in her cat form? Did James never eat while in his stag form, because as a human he couldn't stomach eating leaves and grass?

If you think about it, Peter Pettigrew actually made the best choice in animagus animal, because rats are omnivores and will eat just about anything, especially the same things humans eat.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

What makes this even more telling is that (I'm pretty sure) we never hear Sirius say anything about how much he hates Wormtail and wants to see him dead in either GoF or OoTP,

What do you think is going on in his head in GOF when *rats* are the main component of his diet? And he looks good that year - he eats *plenty* of rats. He was living a revenge fantasy the entire year.

Yuck! You know, I never gave the eating rats much thought....but yea, kinda sick.

(sarcams)...and here I thought Severus was the only one who wanted revenge in this series (/sarcasm)

Sirius' revenge makes Severus' revenge look like a amature.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Yuck! You know, I never gave the eating rats much thought....but yea, kinda sick.

Actually, rat is considered a delicacy in some countries, and is a common part of the diet in many eastern cultures.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Actually, rat is considered a delicacy in some countries, and is a common part of the diet in many eastern cultures.

actually, I was more thinking Yuck as in terms of if he were imagining he caught Peter as a rat and ate him. =) Not the actual rat part, though I'm not inclined to eat rat but I know around the world other kinds of food are considered okay to eat.

But my yuck was more in terms of thinking about him wanting to catch peter and eat him.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

What do you think is going on in his head in GOF when *rats* are the main component of his diet? And he looks good that year - he eats *plenty* of rats. He was living a revenge fantasy the entire year.

Definitely. After all, rats are hard to find and very fast. If he just wanted to eat, he could have survived on rabbits, chickens and whatever falls out of bins (US: garbage cans).

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

The problem, though, is that he wasn't surviving. He was starving. Logically, he shouldn't have been starving if rabbits, chickens, and bins were available options.

So, does that mean that Sirius allowed himself to starve because he refused to eat anything other than rats?

Personally, I think it's Rowling who ignored the fact that rabbits, chickens, and bins were available options because she wanted to show Sirius going to great extremes to be there for Harry, including starving and having to eat rats to survive.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Logically, he shouldn't have been starving if rabbits, chickens, and bins were available options

Why would wizards need bins when they can Vanish things? With regard to non-recyclables, that's one of the few real advantages of Potterverse magic.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Logically, he shouldn't have been starving if rabbits, chickens, and bins were available options.

I also find it hard to believe that there weren't a few sheep farms in the area, either.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Well, in the original ms there was Mopsy the dog-lover in Hogsmeade, who had been feeding a likable stray. But Mopsy was cut on the advice of the editor (back when the books were still actually being edited).

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I posted about this on another topic on here, but I can't forget that Remus and Sirius were quite willing to murder peter petigrew in front of three students at the end of POA.

I'm not saying Peter might not have deserved it, but they were deciding to take the law into their own hands and had to have a child tell them not to kill someone.

These two adults show the childish inmaturity that Harry should have been showing in that scene. One would think a 13 year old kid would be emotionally upset and want to get rid of the badguy that killed his parents. One would expect at least Remus Lupin to be more responsible. I can almost cut Sirius a little bit of slack in that he had been in prison so long...but Remus follows Sirius lead and they're both ready to just blast Peter Petigrew dead.

And add into that Peter is the only witness who can prove Sirius innocent. It's kind of offensive to think that Sirius and Remus were of a mind set that, well we'll have the dead body as proof. How stupid are they??

I know in the other recent thread it was put forth that Severus was so horrible for wanting revenge on Sirius, but to me Remus and Lupin look a lot worse in at the end of POA.

Sirius does some things that also tend to get him a pass, for whatever reason. As has been pointed out already, He didn't mind sending Severus to a werwolf who could have killed him. But, the author and character of Remus seem to not even pay any attention to what and how this would affect Remus Lupin, to have possibly killed a student send their by is supposed best friend.

It is simplistic at best the way the plot falls in place, their is no looking sideways in this story. And I've kind of described it as, nobody movies or does anything till Harry shows up. There is not a lot of thought given to many of the characters for certain actions they take. It's like a stage play where most of the actors appear on stage, then disappear off and have no motives or movements till it's time for them to jump back in the scene.

[fishinginthemud.livejournal.com]

Yeah, what exactly would a dead body prove? That Black was a murderer after all? Since no one in this universe knows how to do a criminal investigation and takes everything entirely at face value, it would probably just "prove" that Black was just finishing the job of killing Pettigrew.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Yeah. Also, there are those thirteen dead Muggles, right? Sirius claims that Peter was the one to kill them, but Sirius could have been the one to kill them even if Peter was the traitor. Sirius needed Peter alive to be able to provide testimony (presumably under Veritaserum) that Sirius didn't kill those people. Peter's recently-dead body wouldn't say *anything* about *that* part of things.

I would *hope* that killing thirteen Muggles would get you sent to Azkaban... although in the WW, it's hard to be sure. I don't think we ever hear about anyone sent there specifically for hurting Muggles (as opposed to (also) hurting wizards and/or revealing the existence of the WW to Muggles).

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

Morfin Gaunt was sent to Azkaban for hexing Tom Riddle Sr. and giving him hives. I'm not sure if there are any other examples, though.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

Sirius was often described as a "mass Muggle-killer".

[oryx_leucoryx]

Percival Dumbledore was sent to Azkaban for a savage attack on three Muggle boys.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

It is simplistic at best the way the plot falls in place, their is no looking sideways in this story. And I've kind of described it as, nobody movies or does anything till Harry shows up. There is not a lot of thought given to many of the characters for certain actions they take. It's like a stage play where most of the actors appear on stage, then disappear off and have no motives or movements till it's time for them to jump back in the scene.

That's a really good way to describe it. I think one of the reasons that Snape may be so beloved is that he probably feels the most "real" of any of the HP characters.

[night-axe.livejournal.com]

Lupin is defined by what he doesn't do. His defining moment is in SWM when he's reading his book with a little frown. He's not weak-willed or indecisive, I think, but avoidant to the max. He firmly chooses what's easy over what's right. It's a relatively consistent portrayal, aside from forgetting his potion, which is not an act of moral cowardice but stupidity. I find that more OOC than marrying a woman he's not that into and then running away from his responsibilities.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I agree that Lupin consistently doesn't do anything. However, imo, his main problem is not moral cowardice, nor is it being weak-willed or indecisive. I think his main problem is that he's an object in the story, not a character. He's so passive that he more closely resembles a doll than a living person.

[sunnyskywalker]

He certainly ends up like a doll JKR got tired of and tossed out.

I don't think he's weak-willed or indecisive either, at least not especially so. He sure didn't have any trouble deciding to murder Peter. If I had to come up with a more plausible reason for his behavior - which JKR probably wouldn't confirm, since she claims his big flaw is wanting to be liked too much - I'd say it's more that he just doesn't give a damn a lot of the time. Friends hexing random people in the halls? Meh, whatever. Tormenting Snape just days after he nearly died? Well, he can't exactly join in in public (being a prefect and all), and maybe doesn't care about tormenting Snape enough to join in even if there weren't witnesses... but stop it? Nah, not worth the bother. (In this reading, the small frown would mean, "Guys, you almost got majorly busted two days ago. I really wish you'd be more discreet.") Kids almost getting killed by "madman Sirius"? That's too bad, but Dumbledore will own him even more if he finds out what they got up to (and might turn him over to the Ministry for passively aiding an Azkaban escapee, for all Lupin knows), so he'll just tell Harry to be careful and keep an eye on the map.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

You know, I suspect that Sirius and Remus almost murdering Peter may have also just been a plot contrivance.... it was so that Peter would owe Harry a life debt for stopping them. She probably originally planned on doing more with the life debt than what appeared in DH.

[sunnyskywalker]

Yeah, while I can come up with reasons for a lot of their actions, it would be nice to have a little more canon support for characters with tons of screentime who make plot-driving decisions. And there's actually a scrap of evidence that she had more in some drafts, but cut it - one of the bonuses on her site I found once is a scribbly timeline of OotP, and it included a scene where Harry runs into Tonks and Lupin in Hogsmeade. This is the same book where he teases her about her name, so whatever else that scene was doing, it probably also built up their relationship (whatever its status was at that time) a bit more, so that their romance wouldn't have seemed quite so out of the blue later. But that scene didn't make it in, so we have to rely on things like, "Well, Tonks might remind him of his friends back in their younger, happier days, so maybe he's attracted to that... And he did tease her affectionately that one time..."

One thing that strikes me on re-reads, though, is that while Lupin can be quite nice and sympathetic when he wants to, he can also be pretty damn cold. After all these years, he kind of feels bad about almost killing a bunch of people during the Marauders' moonlight escapades... but not so sorry that he can't still look back on them with some fondness, and feel grateful to his friends for the outings instead of horrified that they encouraged such recklessness (and for that matter, risked him going to Azkaban). He also needles Snape about taking the potion, knowing full well that he almost ate Snape and so he's being a complete bastard for quasi-threatening him with that again. And of course there is that bit about wanting to murder Pettigrew in front of the kids. So while I don't quite buy "I didn't want to disappoint Dumbledore" as the full explanation for why he didn't tell about the tunnels either, I can believe that maybe the safety of all those students was not actually that important to him, except in an abstract sort of way.

As for why... well, he was facilitating a series of criminally negligent acts by agreeing to those outings in the first place, since iirc it is a crime to release dangerous Dark creatures where people might get hurt (and he agreed to do so while in human form, and helped his friends conceal it afterward), and he admits they had "several" close calls. So maybe by "disappointing Dumbledore" he actually means "getting sent to Azkaban if Dumbledore finds out just how bad we were," and gosh, how could he help protect the kids if he went to Azkaban, right? He'll just... keep an eye out for Sirius and tell Harry not to wander about, yeah! He's canonically that reckless with others' safety when helping would mean less fun or safety for him, so it might work. We just thought he was so much more careful than Sirius and James because he tries a little bit to keep Harry from wandering off to get murdered, forgetting that he also liked being a Marauder up to no good. It's not a perfect solution, but it almost works. And a lot of his other actions seem consistent to me with Lupin having chronic depression.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

As for why... well, he was facilitating a series of criminally negligent acts by agreeing to those outings in the first place, since iirc it is a crime to release dangerous Dark creatures where people might get hurt (and he agreed to do so while in human form, and helped his friends conceal it afterward), and he admits they had "several" close calls. So maybe by "disappointing Dumbledore" he actually means "getting sent to Azkaban if Dumbledore finds out just how bad we were," and gosh, how could he help protect the kids if he went to Azkaban, right?

Honestly, I don't think even this is a rational explanation for why he didn't notify DD of the secret passageways or that Sirius was an animagus, because he really didn't have to confess anything about the werewolf adventures in order to share those two pieces of information. Heck, he could have even gone and blocked the passageways himself without getting anyone else involved.