GOF Chapter 18: The Weighing of the Wands

[oryx_leucoryx]

Oooh! Harry hates being the hero of Gryffindor now that Ron isn't talking to him! Hermione solves his dilemma by bringing him breakfast, so he can delay meeting the student body for a while. (Yes madderbrad, Hermione/Harry OTP, but only on Hermione's side.) Ah, at least Hermione believes him! (Not necessarily for the right reasons, though, because nothing really prevented Harry from placing his name in the goblet or arranging for it to be placed there. The hard part was arranging it for the Goblet to spout his name out.) But Ron - he is just jealous for the attention Harry is getting, that's it! Not because he thinks Harry selfishly went on an adventure without him, no, not at all. Hmm, I think there is much support for Harry/Ron here (and nice foreshadowing of Ron as the one Harry would miss the most). Hermione recognizes it, thus trying to do some damage control by claiming Ron doesn't really believe Harry entered of his own choice. (So far the trio shipping looks like: Ron->Hermione, Hermione->Harry, Harry->Ron. Which is why no pairings of 2 members of the trio in a mutual relationship looks like it could work.)

Hermione is practicing her Molly skills - nagging Harry into being sensible. He does listen, eventually, and writes to Sirius (3rd letter ever). Aww, Harry remembers to say he hopes Sirius and Buckbeak are OK. See, he can express thought of someone else once in a while. Why doesn't Hermione encourage Harry to talk to Dumbles? I suppose she already drank enough of his Kool-Aid to think that if there was anything Dumbles could do to help he'd already do it or something. I wish I could say she saw through Dumbles' game and realized he wasn't interested in Harry's survival, but her behavior in later books contradicts this.

The Hufflepuffs were usually on excellent terms with the Gryffindors - they didn't mind being ignored or thought of as duffers. Harry's Gryffindor thinking gets him believing the Hufflepuffs are bothered by their glory being stolen. No Harry, that's not what they are thinking. They are thinking you cheated, that's what bothers them. Had the rules said each school has 2 champions they'd have had no problem with you being the other one.

Now Hagrid wants the kids to take the skrewts for walkies. The beasts are now strong and hard to control, but Hagrid isn't supervising the class, he is just taking Harry aside for a private chat. BTW Hagrid believes Harry because Dumbledore does. Well, if Hagrid formed an unpopular opinion on his own we'd have had to suspect Harry has fallen into 'interesting creature' category. Oh and walking skrewts will certainly prepare the students for their OWLs next year.

Harry fails at Summoning Charms, just like Neville. (But apparently unlike Ron. Sometimes Ron does better than Harry at magic, but only when it doesn't matter to the plot and especially if the two of them are estranged so Harry doesn't have to worry about complimenting Ron.)

Harry notices how cute Cedric is. And how popular he had become with the girls. Is Harry just a bit jealous of Cedric or for Cedric? (Harry/Cedric OTP?)

It is now almost 2 weeks since Harry was chosen as champion - when the Potter stinks badges appear. BTW the message supporting Cedric is red, the message taunting Harry is green. So you'd know which House is associated with positive messages and which with negative ones. Draco is proud of his badges because with their morphing ability they are more advanced than Hermione's single-message SPEW ones. Draco/Hermione OTP! (Though since it is Harry's attention Draco seeks with the badges then it may indeed be Draco/Harry OTP.) Notice that almost all of Draco's more inventive ideas are inspired by Hermione? Badges, sending instructions to Rosmerta by charmed Galleon, smuggling poisoned mead into Hogwarts. Though using the cabinet was entirely his own.

Ron is standing with Dean and Seamus. Because he is a boy with normal social skills - when he doesn't get along with his best friend he has others to turn to. Ah, in typical style Draco managed to provoke Harry into hexing him. And he expected it, which is why he was ready to hex at the same time. Clashing hexes will appear again in this book, but will be different (because the wands involved will be 'brothers') and again in the finale of DH. What I don't understand is why does Harry's hex bounce to Goyle while Draco's bounce to Hermione. Had the spells clashed exactly head on, I'd expect each one to bounce on its caster. If they clashed at a slight angle, I could understand if Harry's spell had hit Hermione who was standing next to him, and Draco's had hit Goyle. But we can't have Harry hexing Hermione, even by accident, so Rowling shows us how she fails at physics once more. (In DH Tom's spell bounces exactly back at him while Harry's goes straight ahead and hits Tom too - that's a different variation of the same physics!fail. Harry should have disarmed himself. But that wouldn't look good, so it didn't happen.)

So, Hermione reacts to being (temporarily) facially disfigured in panic. This is a second time for her, after the Polyjuice mishap 2 years previously. She notes to herself that if she ever wants to hurt anyone badly she should go for the person's face.

Severus arrives and wants an explanation. Draco gives a truthful though very partial and one-sided explanation. Harry tries to add the missing details but it is Ron who forces Hermione to show her face to Severus. What a considerate way to treat his love. Meanwhile the Slytherin girls, while giggling, are making an effort to go unnoticed by Severus - their giggles are silent and they take care to remain behind his back. This tells me they know that their behavior wouldn't go down well with him if seen.

Severus' "I see no difference" has been interpreted many different ways by fans, but whatever he meant by it, the kids on both sides take it as an intentional insult and he does nothing to correct this impression. He has good reasons not to like Hermione's treatment of him over the years, but right here she was a bystander who became collateral damage, so that's most un-nice of him.

I'm not sure why Harry thinks it was lucky Severus couldn't hear what he and Ron called him. He knew they weren't complimenting him, and they ended up losing 50 points and serving detentions anyway. Harry is livid about the injustice done to him and Ron. Right, The-Boy-Who-Lived-To-Be-A-Champion should be allowed to yell and swear at his teacher. It's in the small print of the binding magical contract, I'm sure.

Note that neither Draco nor Harry gets punished for dueling. Because as Terri has shown under Dumbledore teachers are not allowed to punish students for rule-breaking the teacher did not witness hirself, unless the student confesses. Well, one can argue that in this case Harry did admit to hexing Draco. So Harry would be punished in any case. But the way it is presented, it seems that had Harry and Ron joined the class quietly neither would have been punished.

Poor Harry! Even this shared experience doesn't return Ron to him! Most definitely Harry/Ron, from Harry's side. Meanwhile Harry fantasizes of Cruciating Severus. Well, this degree of wanting revenge is certainly the evidence of how full of love he is. Dumbles is right, Harry was never-ever tempted by the Dark Arts, no way!

They were supposed to brew antidotes (to which poison? or are these general purpose, broad target antidotes, while the more specific ones are NEWTs level?), and Severus was going to poison one of them to see if hir antidote worked. He was going to randomly select Harry for this purpose, because those are the rules of this universe. And Harry was going to waste his antidote on some revenge fantasy. Lots of sense he has. Fortunately he is saved by Colin. Severus is not letting go of Harry easily, but eventually surrenders to the words of Bagman, as delivered by Colin. So whom did he poison?

Fleur has the attention of both Cedric and the photographer. But not Viktor. Maybe coming from Bulgaria he built up resistance to Veela charms? Or perhaps only a quarter-Veela wasn't enough for him? Or was he already head-over-heels in love with Hermione?

Turns out this wasn't just a photo-op, there's a wand-weighing ceremony coming too. But before that Harry has to endure his first interview with Rita Skeeter. In a broom cupboard. In the dark. Where Rita pushes him on a box. Hints of child-rape?

I wonder whose intelligence is operating the Quick Quotes Quill - Rita's or something spelled into it by its manufacturer. If Rita really is 43 then she was 2 or 3 years ahead of Lucius at Hogwarts, maybe around Molly and Arthur's age. Also Bellatrix's age. She probably knows from way back then how to get at these people if she wants to.

Dumbles shows up and stops the rape-by-quill. Aww, Rita wants to hear Dumbles' reaction to a piece in which she was nasty to him. She called him an obsolete dingbat. I wonder over what. Which of his ideas are now considered old-fashioned? Aren't we supposed to think Albus was ahead of his day in his pseudo-egalitarianism? Are the 'many wizards in the street' whom Rita considers her audience more exclusivist or more egalitarian than Albus?

Ollivander will check that the champions' wands are in good working order. Because a school champion might fail to notice hir wand not answering correctly. I find it a bit odd, but never mind. Of course Ollivander can only test that the wand is performing spells, he can't test the degree of mastery the champion has over hir wand. But since the whole mastery business is something Ollivander only learned in preparation for his encounter with Harry in DH (or a convenient lie he made up) he doesn't care about it now.

Wands have personalities. Which sort of match those of their owners. The wizarding world should employ wand-makers as Seers.

Fleur's wand is inflexible and temperamental. Cedric's is pleasantly springy. Viktor's is thick and rigid. Harry's was described in PS as 'nice and supple'. (And Harry is so supple Twinkly can bend and shape him whichever way.) Ollivander is so objective he likes wands he made himself more than those made by others.

Thanks to sistermagpie for the Freudian symbolism of the spells used to test respective wands, foreshadowing all the wand humor of DH. Fleur's wand, appropriately feminine in its shortness relative to the rest, produces flowers. Cedric's wand (which he polished the previous night!) only produces smoke rings, foreshadowing Cedric's death and appearance as shade (no grandchildren to hear of his victory over Harry, sigh), while Viktor's thicker wand lets out a blast like a gun. It also produces birds, though these aren't set to attack anyone. (Did Hermione learn this spell from Viktor?) Harry has yet to start polishing his wand in any frequency. That's why the spell Ollivander chooses for this wand is more reminiscent of urination than ejaculation, according to sistermagpie.

Of course the purpose of the whole ceremony is a page-long trip down memory lane in which Harry reminds us his wand is the brother of Tom's. (The longest wand of a human wizard as far as we know - and yes, Tom was human when he got the wand.)

The ceremony is followed by the promised photo-op. Wizards have no magical solution to getting a group photo of people of different heights. May I suggest a magical equivalent of Photoshop?

Hermione wasn't at dinner, and Harry assumes she was still getting her teeth fixed. The way she described it later on I doubt it took as long as that. Maybe she was spending time at the hospital wing accompanying Ron - the most likely to have been randomly selected for poisoning once Harry was unavailable. (And not very likely to have been capable of producing an antidote that worked.)

Sirius' reply arrived by owl - he wants to set up a meeting for firecalling because his info is top-secret. We know Sirius is now living practically next door. So why does it take him almost 2 weeks to reply, and why does he set the meeting for over a week ahead, only 2 days before the first task? Perhaps that's how long it took him to find a house he could make sure to be empty on that night.

Comments

[fishinginthemud.livejournal.com]

the Elder Wand refused to strike 'the master it would not kill'. That's the master it had killed just an hour earlier in the forest.

But it didn't really kill him. It knew he wouldn't really die, honest. It was just playing! He's the hero, he can't die!

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

He's the hero, he can't die!



And that's what ... that's what ... no, I can't say it ... give me a moment ...

thatswhatdidit.

Yeah.

"You won't be killing anyone else tonight," said Harry as they circled, and stared into each other's eyes, green into red. "You won't be able to kill any of them ever again. Don't you get it? I was ready to die to stop you from hurting these people - "

"But you did not!"

" - I meant to, and that's what did it."

WHAT A LOAD OF RUBBISH.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

Actually, I thought that was one of the few things in DH that made sense. Harry thought he was going to die, so his thought processes were all exactly the same as they would have been if he had genuinely been killed. That what he sacrificed was later given back to him in no way invalidates the original sacrifice itself.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Interesting way of looking at it.

I think the prevailing view is that Harry *didn't* actually die. Harry himself agrees with this interpretation. In which case, willing to be a sacrifice or not ... there was no sacrifice. And thus no 'sacrificial magic' is possible. There was no 'original sacrifice'. Harry was stopped short of the sacrifice actually being made.

But you're saying here that he did actually die - Harry Potter was no more! - but then was brought back to life? If that's true then the whole Elder Wand thing is even more broken, of course. For, while Ollivander makes the point that killing the owner of the wand isn't absolutely necessary to become its master, certainly that will absolutely guaranteeing becoming the boss of the wand.

But Rowling's convoluted new wand lore is broken many ways in the 7th book. I do think it's broken even more, though, if you grant that Harry actually, really and truly, died that night.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I think the prevailing view is that Harry *didn't* actually die. Harry himself agrees with this interpretation. In which case, willing to be a sacrifice or not ... there was no sacrifice. And thus no 'sacrificial magic' is possible. There was no 'original sacrifice'. Harry was stopped short of the sacrifice actually being made.

I think it's worded like, he meant to die which was apparently important or it sort of seems like JKR is suggesting because he meant to die it's just as important as if he had actually died.

I agree that if he didn't really die then it's not really a sacrifice. It's sort of like PeeWeeHermans "I meant to do that"

His mother died to create her protection magic, so how is it Harry, without dieing, just because he meant to. IF the magic is just based on I meant to die - then shouldn't everyone like say, Molly or Ron/Hermione, Ginny shouldn't all them have created the magical protection already.

What about Tonks, Lupin or Fred? They actually died protecting they're family friends and people that might not have necessarily been their friends but just people at Hogwarts.

Hell, what about Snape? Shouldn't his death get some bonus because he was protecting someone he didn't really like. To me thats got to take more moral conviction than protecting someone you love. If you're willing to fight for people you don't particularly like then to me that makes you a better person than just saving and protecting people you like.

So yea, i do have a problem with the suggestion that Harry meant to die means it's sacrifice. Lots of other people sacrificed so why aren't they're deaths creating special magic.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

What about Tonks, Lupin or Fred? They actually died protecting they're family friends and people that might not have necessarily been their friends but just people at Hogwarts.

Hell, what about Snape? Shouldn't his death get some bonus because he was protecting someone he didn't really like. ...

Well, their deaths not producing super-dooper-abstract-wave-your-hands sacrificial protection magic is consistent with Rowling's (sad, sorry, warped) framework. James died trying to protect his family, he died fighting the dark lord. No protection. Lily didn't try to fight, she didn't try to protect her son - she just offered herself as a 'sacrifice'. Knowing that her death wouldn't save Harry, that her death would be meaningless. Knowing that her sacrifice wasn't even *accepted*.

For Rowling that was the difference. James strived to protect his family, he dies, that's it, so long James. Lily acts like a helpless useless sacrificial lamb, super-dooper-abstract-wave-your-hands magic materialises to save her son.

So, yeah. Tonks, Lupin, Fred, Snape - they were all foolish in that they strived to defeat the dark lord, they tried to make the world a better place by stopping the bad guys. Their deaths aren't anywhere near as important, as significant, as a Lily/Harry offering up his life as a useless gesture with absolutely no practical benefit.

Every time I read Rowling's muddled explanation here (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/features/interviews/jkr1) of how the sacrificial magic 'worked' I'm ... offended ... by her sad ethics, her morals, whatever you'd call it. Don't fight back. Don't resist. Don't try and make the world a better place. That's acting like an 'animal'. Just close your eyes and offer yourself as a sacrifice and lo, the author god will step in and produce magic that no-one has ever seen before.

Pfah.

There are umpteen ways that the parallel between Harry and Lily that Rowling strives to make fails, big time. Like the not-actually-dying thing. :-) It's one of the most pathetic parts of DH (and that's saying something).

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Well, JKR seems to be saying that because Lily was given a choice to step aside - that made her death more powerful than random anyone who was fighting for their life/family whatever.

Comparing, Harry could have run away I suppose and escaped so instead he marched to his death. I'm assuming thats the similarity of their sacrifice, maybe.

So I'm assuming she means these people had the option, the offering of being able to walk away and live. But Harry really didn't have an offer, he knew he would die. I suppose Lily did as well but If she thought she had an offer, the way JKR is wording her reply it makes it sound like she would have considered the offer or something.

If I want to get technical, doesn't everyone have that kind of offer in the life and death moments? Me using my favorite example Snape, didn't he have every opportunity to give up on Dumbledore and Harry? He never seems to have turned away from what he believed was his duty and he didn't really have to have loyalty to them. He didn't have to stay at Hogwarts or whatever, he could have even fully returned to Voldie, but we know from canon he stayed loyal to Dumbles. He seems to have a million oppertunites to have that choice to step aside.

JKR seems to say because Lily was offered life but made the choice to stay in the way of Voldie...but really in the scene I remember, she seems way more hysterical than a person who would rationally think about an offer. I don't see the scene as logically considering what voldie is saying to her.

I don't have the book right now in front of me but I seem to remember her 'begging' and all I can remember is take me instead or didn't she say she'd do anything (or I remember anything being used because I mentally am making that connection to snape of doing anything) and I think she said please not harry.

But to me she doesn't seem entirely rational. Lily isn't thinking Oh he's offering me a chance to live, let me ponder what I'm going to choose. To me no true mother would even give that a millisecond of thought to step aside and let a man have her baby.

Honestly I would think most women would tear you up in that kinda situation. I'd of thought Lily would have jumped on his ass wand pointed at her or not.

I guess it's just that to JKR those two characters sacrifice is much more valuable.

Don't fight back. Don't resist. Don't try and make the world a better place. That's acting like an 'animal'. Just close your eyes and offer yourself as a sacrifice and lo, the author god will step in and produce magic that no-one has ever seen before.

Yea, it's a bit weird isn't it. Most times if you get between a mother and her child, be it human or animal you're going to get your ass kicked.

Good think Lily didnt have a bear for her patronus instead of a deer, probably would have had a different situation. Imagine Voldie facing the human woman who had a tasmainan devil as her animagus. LOL! Damn wussy deer!

Hell I've seen Mockingbirds go after humans/cats/dogs just because they walk near the tree the nest is in and they're skinny little birds with big attitude. You'd think Lily could have at least thrown something at Voldie. Maybe Harry's dirty diapers for a start. (hehe)

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

JKR seems to say because Lily was offered life but made the choice to stay in the way of Voldie...but really in the scene I remember, she seems way more hysterical than a person who would rationally think about an offer. I don't see the scene as logically considering what voldie is saying to her.

I don't have the book right now in front of me but I seem to remember her 'begging' and all I can remember is take me instead or didn't she say she'd do anything (or I remember anything being used because I mentally am making that connection to snape of doing anything) and I think she said please not harry.

But to me she doesn't seem entirely rational. Lily isn't thinking Oh he's offering me a chance to live, let me ponder what I'm going to choose. To me no true mother would even give that a millisecond of thought to step aside and let a man have her baby.

I can gratify your wish for that scene. It's in chapter 17.

He forced the door open, cast aside the chair and boxes hastily piled against it with one lazy wave of his wand...and there she stood, the child in her arms. At the sight of him, she dropped her son into the crib behind her and threw her arms wide, as if this would help, as if in shielding him from sight she hoped to be chosen instead...

"Not Harry, not Harry, please not Harry!"

"Stand aside, you silly girl...stand aside, now."

"Not Harry, please no, take me, kill me instead--"

"This is my last warning--"

"Not Harry! Please...have mercy...have mercy...Not Harry! Not Harry! Please--I'll do anything--"

"Stand aside. Stand aside, girl!"

He could have forced her away from the crib, but it seemed more prudent to finish them all...

The green light flashed around the room and she dropped like a stone...."

Good catch on noticing the parallelism between Snape and Lily both saying they'll do "anything" to save the one they loved. I'd never noticed that before.

I argued on Snapedom last year that in this scene Voldemort doesn't act like a ruthless murderer, and Lily doesn't act like a mother defending her child. He acts like a daddy trying to get his daughter's favorite rag dolly to throw it in the wash, and she's like a little girl begging him not to. I can't imagine a real murderous dictator calling his victim a "silly girl," or giving her umpteen chances to step aside. He'd march in there, yell, "Out of my way, mudblood filth!", then kill her when she didn't move. By giving her a chance to move, he would have fulfilled his promise to Snape.

Someone else on Snapedom pointed out he asks her to move three times, which may have been necessary to activate the protective magic. If that's true, that's more JKR contrivance because nobody would do that in RL.

I guess it's just that to JKR those two characters sacrifice is much more valuable.

I think that's what it comes down to. Everything they do is just more speshul because they're the ones doing it. Why, Amycus Carrow should have been honored to be Crucio'd by the great Harry Potter! ;-)

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Good catch on noticing the parallelism between Snape and Lily both saying they'll do "anything" to save the one they loved. I'd never noticed that before.

I have a selective memory I think (LOL) but yea, she is kind of saying the same thing.

On some level I can understand her hysterics and that she's scared witless but the conversation/dialogue between them does come across rather weird, I've always felt there should or would have been more to it...but then again I suppose it serves the purpose.

Another thing I'd point out is - Why would Voldemort make her multi-offers to get out of the way? He never seems to do that for anyone else. We see him off people with a lot less greef than Lily is giving him.

And, thinking about it, IS it Severus' request that gave Voldemort pause. Perhaps Voldemort knowing that Snape wanted her assumed that Lily would easily accept. I have no idea how much Severus would have told Voldemort about Lily. I in fact find it very WEIRD that Severus asked Voldemort for Lily. I mean, how the HELL does that conversation go. One would think Voldemort would have said no right away, considering she was a muggleborn. The object of his game is muggleborns are no more than animals and at worse he thinks they should be dead. So why would Voldemort even consider the request?

Severus tells Dumbledore he asked but we never really find out how Voldemort felt about the request. The best we have is he thinks it's best that they all (the 3 Potters) should be dead.

But then again, going back, why would Voldie offer Lily a second chance, seems out of character. So I do wonder if he was considering the request but because she didn't move he decided to kill her.

If the multi-offers were because of Severus - then Severus is the reason for both getting Lily killed but also saving her son because Voldie might not have ever made the offer at all. He just kills James and with Lily wouldn't he have normally walked in the room an AK'ed her without having any kind of conversation with her period. Why even talk to her? He didn't need to make even the first offer.

So, we know Severus asked, and if this caused Voldie to change his behavior and make the offer, then Severus is just as much the reason the Love Protection happened as Lily because Voldie would have never even said anything to her at all.

By giving her a chance to move, he would have fulfilled his promise to Snape.

Yes, exactly. It makes Severus the inacter of both ends of the spectrum, the good and the bad. If it hadn't been for his love for Lily and his willingness to ask Voldie to spare her then she would have never been able to cause the Old-Love magic to happen.

[oryx_leucoryx]

And, thinking about it, IS it Severus' request that gave Voldemort pause. Perhaps Voldemort knowing that Snape wanted her assumed that Lily would easily accept. I have no idea how much Severus would have told Voldemort about Lily. I in fact find it very WEIRD that Severus asked Voldemort for Lily. I mean, how the HELL does that conversation go.

Depends.

Maybe somewhere along these lines:

V: Severus, remember that prophecy you brought me a year ago? I think I know who it is about. What do you think I should do about the people it talks about?

S: Master, why would you ask my advice? I am merely the most humble of your servants.

V: Be it as it may, I am interested in your word. After all, you were the one who brought me the warning. What use is a warning without a plan of action to ward off the danger? Or perhaps you brought this prophecy to distract me? To sabotage me when I am so close to bringing my full plan to success?

S: In that case, perhaps you may want to address the danger while it was still small ... May I ask ... Who is it about?

V: Remember James Potter? I understand you attended Hogwarts together. He married that Mudblood about a year ago. They had a son at the very end of last July. And they defied me three times already. I made sure to count. Yes, I believe their son is the one.

S: Master! I ... I am so pleased to have been of service... To be able to bring you this warning ... Master... if it is not too much for me to ask, if you think my service was worthy ... perhaps you might consider giving me Potter's wife?

V: Potter's wife? What is she to you?

M: Well, as you said, I knew Potter at school. He was the bane of my existence, always showing off, always getting away with things, always favored - when the suffering of worthier and more talented ones was being ignored. So I think - how can I finally get my long-wanted revenge on him? Well, how would he like it, to see me with his prized Mudblood wife while he is safely dead and helpless to stop me?

V: Now that sounds like a request befitting one of my servants. For a moment I thought you cared about the girl. I'll tell you what - I'll consider it, I'll make her an offer - if she is sensible she'll take it. Now leave.

S: Yes Master.

(S leaves, stops around a corner and vomits.)

---------------------

Or maybe like this:

V: Severus, I believe there was one James Potter who attended school with you?

S: Yes Master, he was in my year.

V: Can you tell me anything about his friends? Who are closest to him? And most importantly - what are their weaknesses?

S: Well, Master, there were three of them. The closest one was Black. The older one - Sirius. He was always Potter's closest confidant and partner in crime. Potter will grant him anything. If Potter weren't married I'd think there was something between those two. And Black - well you know that family. He is as ruthless as his cousin, as hot-headed. Might have made a good servant for you if Potter and the old fool hadn't caught him first. You know of his falling-out with his family. And when he is out to get at someone he sees as an enemy - nothing will stop him. Not even if his action could bring utter destruction on a close friend.

V: Interesting, Severus. Do continue.

S: Then there is Lupin. Not as close to Potter. More of a tag-along. Always a follower and a pleaser, never had a single vertebra in his back. And then there's Pettigrew - another hanger-on. Will suffer any humiliation just to be allowed to be near such glorious people like Potter and Black. Not as strong at magic either.

Er, Master, may I ask why are you so interested in Potter's friends?

V: Well, Severus, remember that prophecy you related to me about a year ago? I think I know who it is about. You see, Potter married that Mudblood, and they had a son at the very end of last July. The two of them did defy me three times. So it seems to add up - that son of theirs must be the one the prophecy talked about. For months I have been trying to find a way to get close to them. Now your information might give me a way. That was very helpful.

S: I am always glad to be of service to you, Master. Now, if Master is pleased ... perhaps I might ask, if it is not too much ..

(etc, continue as in previous version).

[sunnyskywalker]

Re-reading that scene and keeping other bits of DH in mind, I'm now especially baffled why that all happened as it did, even aside from Voldemort being uncharacteristically patient and thoughtful. We know that Lily was skilled with wandless magic by age 9 - she didn't just jump out of that swing hoping that she would fall slowly, she knew she would, and Petunia's comments suggest it isn't the first time she's done something like this. So not having her wand on her should not have meant insta-death. Why the hell didn't she try something? Depending on how the protections on the house were set up, she could have taken the anti-Apparition wards down and side-alonged away with Harry as soon as she heard James shout. Or if there wasn't time to take them down, grabbed Harry, jumped out the window past the wards, and Apparated and slowed her fall like we know she can. Or set Voldemort's wand on fire. Anything.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Didn't she put crap in front of the door. I seem to remember something about her moving stuff to keep him out; didn't Voldie think about it being a feeble attempt for her to baracade the door?

IF she had time to slide crap in front of the door, like a dresser or wardrobe or whatever the hell she put there...didn't she have time to grab the baby and try to escape out the window.

Or hell, she was muggleborn...throw something at him, wait behind the door with something heavy and has he come in knock his wand out of his hand.

And another thing, why run upstairs at all, shouldn't they have had a backdoor? Why would she run upstairs instead of taking the backdoor option? It seems a little stupid that they would have lived in a house without a backdoor doesn't it? Don't most people have a backdoor? Or hell, they should have planned and had some kind of escape option, a trapdoor in the floor...SOMETHING. Yet all she can do is run upstairs. I don't get that so I'm gonna have to assume there was no back door to the house because if there was a bag door, running upstairs seems pretty lame.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Didn't she put crap in front of the door.

Boxes, and something else. Nothing magikal, and pretty lame from even a Muggle angle. Seems to me that any fair-to-middling witch or wizard could easily get rid of physical objects blocking a door...

Or hell, she was muggleborn...throw something at him, wait behind the door with something heavy and has he come in knock his wand out of his hand.

Or the standard cartoon-and-Three-Stooges trick of a bucket of water balanced on top of the slightly ajar door; as someone who's been ballyhooed as this amazing witch, seems to me that conjuring up a bucket filled with water, or some noxious substance, should have been a piece of cake for Lily...

And another thing, why run upstairs at all, shouldn't they have had a backdoor?

I thought she was already upstairs taking care of baby Harry...only James was downstairs when Voldie arrived, but my memory could be failing me... :-)

Or hell, they should have planned and had some kind of escape option, a trapdoor in the floor...SOMETHING.

Yes, one would think that if you were high on the elimination list of the Dark Lord (or one of his lackeys), that you would have multiple options/plans of what to do if he/they came a-callin'...

And #1 on the list would be to never answer the door without your wand at the ready.

I don't get that so I'm gonna have to assume there was no back door to the house because if there was a bag door, running upstairs seems pretty lame.

Maybe she jumped to the erroneous conclusion that Voldie came with DEs, who were waiting outside...and maybe that's why she didn't try to escape by jumping with Harry out a window and flying/falling as we know she can do.

Doesn't explain why she didn't try side-along apparation with Harry...

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I thought she was already upstairs taking care of baby Harry...only James was downstairs when Voldie arrived, but my memory could be failing me... :-)

I can't remember 100% for sure, I thought she was downstairs because, her James and Harry were in the living room or something, or thats what I thought. I thought they were playing with the baby or something or maybe she had gone upstairs. Don't have my book handy right now but I thought that they were all downstairs in the same spot but without the book I don't know for sure now and am going on memory.

Maybe she jumped to the erroneous conclusion that Voldie came with DEs, who were waiting outside...and maybe that's why she didn't try to escape by jumping with Harry out a window and flying/falling as we know she can do.

Doesn't explain why she didn't try side-along apparation with Harry...

Not sure how running upstairs and putting Harry in his crib would help though...and to add into all that WHERE THE HELL is her wand? Did she just leave it upstairs somewhere or, I mean we see throughout the series most of the kids always tend to have their wand with them. I can't remember to many instances where Harry was left standing around without hsi wand or even a moment showing him going to class without his wand. So whats the deal with Lily not having her wand on her at all, and/or not even getting it?

I guess it was just easier to write the scene with Lily and James wandless; it made the confrontation between him and Lily way easier but it seems to conflict with what we learn from all the other magical people in the series, who seem to have their wand at ever opportunity.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Not sure how running upstairs and putting Harry in his crib would help though...and to add into all that WHERE THE HELL is her wand?

I'm in the middle of packing to move this coming week, so I don't have the books available, either...

But I seem to remember it that Lily was already upstairs, giving Harry a bath or something, and James was downstairs alone in the living room when he heard something at the door. James went to look without taking his own wand, and Voldie AK'd him.

Lily hearing this then tried to barricade herself with Harry in Harry's room, for some reason using boxes and maybe a piece of furniture or something.

Now if Lily was busy finishing up Harry's bath, or putting jammies on him to put him to bed, I'll be charitable and concede that she had reason to lay her wand down to take care of the task at hand.

Of course if it was me, and I knew someone had me and my kid on their assassination list, I'd be packing a weapon at all times, especially if my weapon is a wand that wouldn't be harmed by getting wet by baby's bath water. But that's just me.

But what is totally inexplicable -- and to me, unforgiveable -- is the fact that James went to check out the noise at the door without taking his wand. He was just reading the paper or something like that IIRC, there is absolutely no excuse that he didn't have his wand on him, especially no excuse for not taking his wand when he went to check the door.

As for Lily, assuming that she was already upstairs, there is no excuse for her not to have gotten her own wand when she heard what had happened downstairs, rather than waste time stacking boxes and chairs or whatever against the door. Unless James' and Lily's wands were together in the same place...perhaps wizards have childproof "wand safes" akin to gun safes? :-P

As has been pointed out, Lily could do wandless magik...so why didn't she do so in this case?

It seems that Rowling only cared that Voldie had killed James and Lily, and didn't want to waste time writing a credible scenario for their deaths...with the result that both James and Lily come off as pretty pathetic.

Not the case

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

In Deathly Hallows V reminisces about how James and Lily were in their living room and that James was making the wand do coloured lights or some silly trick for baby Harry when Voldemort arrived. James and Lily had both laid their wands down for a moment. V AK's James before he could pick up a wand while Lily ran upstairs with Harry.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/It seems that Rowling only cared that Voldie had killed James and Lily, and didn't want to waste time writing a credible scenario for their deaths...with the result that both James and Lily come off as pretty pathetic./

Or a scenario that was consistent with the account of their deaths in previous books. Voldemort himself tells Harry in PS/SS that his parents were brave and that his father put up a tremendous fight. Where was this fight in DH? James went down in three seconds and, as madderbrad said earlier, Lily acted like a "helpless useless sacrificial lamb," not at all like the prodigious witch that she had been as a child, not at all like a member of the Order, and not at all like the bright student that Slughorn describes her as being.

[sunnyskywalker]

If I had a magic wand, I would use it to help give the kid a bath or put his jammies on! And think of the possibilities for diaper-changing. Just Vanish the contents. No, I think the parents of a young child would have their wands in holsters at the ready all the time.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

I think that I read a post somewhere on the Internet that suggested that JKR envisioned the scene between Voldemort and Lily as a magical version of a bank robbery. Voldemort is the robber with the gun, demanding that the bank teller give him the money or he'll shoot her.

The problem is that a gun has two functions: to kill or to seriously maim. A wand gives its owner an unlimited amount of options. As has been stated many times before, Voldemort could have simply Stunned Lily. He could have cast the Imperius Curse on her to make her move out of the way. He could have Confunded her. He could have casted any number of non-lethal spells to incapacitate her or remove her. And considering that Lily didn't even have her wand during their confrontation, it would have been even easier for Voldemort to do any of the above.

So, the fact that he actually wastes time arguing with her, trying to persuade her with mere words instead of with magic, doesn't make sense in this context.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Yes. And this was the reason some people theorized Voldemort needed Lily to be conscious there and then for some reason. For instance HPSpec proposed that Voldemort already Imperiurized Lily and was planning on making her cast a Fidelius Charm on the Horcrux he would make with Harry's death. All the 'stand aside' part was, according to this proposal, Voldemort testing his control of Lily and Lily resisting Imperius. According to this proposal that was the special thing about Lily's death and what made it the only instance of a death that created lasting protection for someone else - that she was able to sacrifice herself while resisting a command via Imperius not to.

theredwitch proposed Voldemort needed Lily to do something brave in order for her to summon Gryffindor's sword which he could use for the Horcrux.I'm not sure how this could work without the Sorting Hat, though.

Explanations

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

These fans all gave it a lot more thought than JKR ever did. That is why so many of us still give the series thought. So many questions unanswered and so many gaps in the picture it presents. That's an advertising trick. But it was nothing like as calculated as this on JKR's part, obviously she intended to close off all variety of interpretations with the horrible bolted on epilogue. She was just too inept to build a complete picture.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

I think it's worded like, he meant to die which was apparently important or it sort of seems like JKR is suggesting because he meant to die it's just as important as if he had actually died.

But that's utter BS. Look at it in RL terms: A person is filled with misery and despair. They attempt suicide but don't actually die. They receive treatment for their depression, get their life in order, and go on to live a long, successful, happy life. They intended to die, too, but they didn't so the outcome of their act was entirely different than if they had. Rowling's attitude is really kind of insulting to people who've lost a loved one to suicide. I've never been in that position, but I'm sure the survivors of a person who kills themselves would say there's an incalculable difference between an attempted suicide and a successful one.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

LOL!!

Wait, didn't that AK spell bounch again, if I remember rightly wasn't Voldemort knocked out to or something? I need to go back and read but I seem to remember Bellatrix hovering over Voldie as he was getting up or something.

So, apparently that AK spell the elder wand cast actually killed the VoldieBit that was in Harry - but since when does an AK only kill part of a persons soul?

We're to assume that Voldie has broken his soul into these bits of Horcuxes. Yet a AK when it kills you, it kills you full dead but this AK apparently only went after the Voldie bits and not the Harry bits. So if this Voldie bit was attached to harry's soul then by right shouldn't harry have died as well?

I still think it sounds like the Princess Bride - He's only mostly dead.

But also we sorta see the actual physical Voldie knocked out to, or at least knocked down. So how did that happen being that Harry didn't send out any kind of spell.

So what gives?

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

ut also we sorta see the actual physical Voldie knocked out to, or at least knocked down. So how did that happen being that Harry didn't send out any kind of spell.

I assumed that was the blood link draining him to keep Harry alive. He doesn't show the same reaction when Nagini dies.

So, apparently that AK spell the elder wand cast actually killed the VoldieBit that was in Harry - but since when does an AK only kill part of a persons soul?

We're to assume that Voldie has broken his soul into these bits of Horcuxes. Yet a AK when it kills you, it kills you full dead but this AK apparently only went after the Voldie bits and not the Harry bits. So if this Voldie bit was attached to harry's soul then by right shouldn't harry have died as well?

Whose theory was it that the Deathly Hallows were genuinely Death's artifacts, and the Elder Wand is so offended by Voldemort's immense efforts to achieve immortality that it takes whatever opportunities it can get to kill him?