Head Boy an' Girl

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Now, yer mum an’ dad were as good a witch an’ wizard as I ever knew. Head boy an’ girl at Hogwarts in their day!

--PS chapt. 4 Many of us have questioned how James (and, to a lesser extent, Lily) could have been head boy, given everything we've been told about his behavior as a teenager. But I'm wondering... are we absolutely certain that he actually was head boy?

It occurred to me this morning that the only mention of James and Lily as having been head boy and girl in the entire series is Hagrid's statement above, which he makes soon after delivering Harry his Hogwarts letter. We are told multiple times in multiple books that Tom, Bill, and Percy were all head boys, but it is never once stated again that James and Lily were head boy and girl, not even when the trio is looking through an old list of head boys in chapter 13 of CoS.

We know that Hagrid is not the most reliable source of information. Just a few hours later, he will tell Harry, "There’s not a single witch or wizard who went bad who wasn’t in Slytherin," completely glossing over the fact that man who betrayed Harry's family was a Gryffindor. When he declares that James and Lily were head boy and girl, he is in the midst of countering Petunia's claims that they were strange and abnormal freaks who got themselves blown up. Could he be lying here... or, umm, exaggerating the truth a bit? (They weren't really head boy and girl, but they should've been, given how totally awesome they were).

After all, it is Hagrid's assigned duty to make sure that Harry agrees to go to Hogwarts and follows in his parents' footsteps... including, eventually, the whole getting themselves blown up part.

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I thought we are talking about what Hagrid was thinking when he talked about DEs in 1991. Recruitment after his return isn't relevant.

True. But you then proceed to discuss the number of DEs in Harry's era. So, was there anything limiting or addressing the numbers back in the 'first' Voldemort 'war'?

Tom only managed to get about 35-45 people for the 7P battle ... Lucius who must have stayed home ...

Couldn't other DEs have stayed home? It's not as if we're told that Riddle was ordering every single DE to Privet Drive, right? It's just your assumption that most of the minions were assembled that night?

... we are at under 40 standing in the circle.

How do you know that? I've just skimmed through the graveyard chapters and couldn't seen anything that clearly gave an upper limit. A space for six missing DEs, a gap for two, etc, but no upper bound.

Later on we have this:

"And the Death Eaters? They returned?"

"Yes," said Harry. "Loads of them . . ."

I don't know if forty is 'loads'. Certainly 'loads' would support a higher figure.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Couldn't other DEs have stayed home?

If Tom was desperate enough to rely on Stan Shunpike then any able-bodied and wanded DE was there.

How do you know that?

Based on the number at the time of the 7P battle, adding and subtracting as I explained.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Based on the number at the time of the 7P battle -

Okay, so all based on the numbers of the 7P battle ... and your assumption that every DE was there.

If Tom was desperate enough to rely on Stan Shunpike then any able-bodied and wanded DE was there.

That's a wobbly inference that falls far short of what would be required for a rigorous proof. For example, if Stan was Imperiused - do we know for sure if he was or not? - then it would have the calibre of the wizard who was controlling Stan which determined how useful he was in the battle. Secondly, maybe Stan volunteered, eager to prove himself. Third, maybe Voldemort ordered a certain number of DEs to attend, first priority given to any DE who had had *any* experience or interaction with Harry Potter.

(I'm forgetting if the 'seven Potters' thing was known to the Voldemort beforehand, but even if not it would have been a reasonable criterion in deciding who would attend.)

[oryx_leucoryx]

I'm forgetting if the 'seven Potters' thing was known to the Voldemort beforehand, but even if not it would have been a reasonable criterion in deciding who would attend.

Tom wasn't expecting more than one Harry, but he didn't know how he would be moved. He had to prepare for a move by air or by land, so he had to have enough people around outside of what he believed to be the boundary of the protected area blocking all possible routes. Ideally he'd want a human chain around the block in case Harry might try walking by in his invisibility cloak. He didn't have enough people even for that.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

There's one big flaw in your argument.

You're assuming that Riddle was a *competent villain*.

This is Harry Potter, remember? Where the characters are all made stupid when necessary to avoid blasting the silly plots into tiny pieces? This same villain was also telling all of his followers that they were not allowed to try and kill Harry, that right was reserved for the dark lord.

Riddle's heart wasn't in it. He wanted Harry to escape. :-)

(Actually, I'm being silly with that last - maybe - but seriously - ROWLING NEEDED Harry to escape. So she'd write Riddle as being stupid and not allocating all of his DEs to the task.)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Danny Sparks came up with a neat quote from one of the graveyard chapters which supports your figure of approximately forty for the number of DEs left over from the end of the 'first Voldemort war'; she posted it elsewhere in this LJ thread.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

At the beginning of the duel in the graveyard...

“Expelliarmus”… and what use would it be to deprive Voldemort of his wand, even if he could, when he was surrounded by Death Eaters, outnumbered by at least thirty to one?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Well, you've got to do *something*, otherwise it's a case of just stand there and be killed, and no hero/Gryffindor would make that decision.

So, yeah, as a priority, disarming the wizard who's trying to kill you there and then makes a lot of sense!

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

lol, sorry, my point was that we get a sense here of how many death eaters were present at the graveyard. There were a little more than thirty of them there.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

It's a quote from near the beginning of chapter 34.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see. And I skipped right past that in my skim of that chapter just a few minutes ago.

Okay, that's a great quote, and supports Oryx nicely for the issue of how many DEs were around in the 'first' Voldemort 'war'. I can't really argue that there were a hundred DEs present, even Harry would have supplied a bigger number in that case.

And I'm pretty sure we're led to believe that ALL of Riddle's DEs were supposed to turn up at the graveyard. (Not like the case where Oryx is trying to show that they all showed up at the 7P fight above Privet drive.)

Thank you for the quote!

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

'First things first', in other words. :-)

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Well, it is his signature spell, I guess. Surely he would have learned something better by the end of the 4th year though?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

sorry, I should have indicated better that the sentence was a quote from chapter 34 of GoF that gives us an idea of how many death eaters were present.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

No problem! Serves me right for not having a copy of the book on hand.

[stephanie-draws.livejournal.com]

And isn't is ironic that he learned it from ~Snape~ who used it when he wiped the floor with Lockhart in the Duelling Club?!