No Hostages for Harry: An Analysis of Voldemort’s, the Order’s, and Death Eater Actions in DH

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

This was inspired by borg_princess’s response to Madderbrad’s comments on my last: Borg wrote, “All Voldy had to do was torture the Weasleys. Hell, hold Ginny to ransom and Harry would come flying to the rescue! But no, we’re to buy that they were let alone, no attempt to use them as leverage, and that a ghoul with spots was able to keep them from harm…”

This had been bothering me for a long time, but Madderbrad & borg_princess made me finally pull my disjointed thoughts into shape. Thanks!

*

Loathe though I may be to admit it, it seems that Jo’s Voldemort and his minions were not simply being stupid in letting the Order wander around free and never trying to kidnap Ginny to induce Harry to surrender.

The Order’s freedom, and Ginny’s (for the time covered by the book) served Voldemort’s best interests.




I. Voldemort’s Actions

First off, the Order in general had apparently been hypnotized by Dumbledore into believing only Harry could do anything against the Dark Lord and his Death Eaters. Once they no longer played a part in directly protecting Harry, they sank into becoming Harry’s cheerleaders from the sidelines.

Now think this through from a P.R. viewpoint. Dumbledore’s hand-picked followers respond to Voldemort’s takeover of the WW by waiting for a teenager to do… something. The teen drops out of sight, and the Order sits tight and accepts Voldemort’s puppet-Minister and Headmaster.

The propaganda value of Arthur, alone, continuing to work for the Ministry and to send his daughter to Hogwarts is humongous! If the Order, specially trained by Dumbledore to resist You-Know-Who and privy to everything Dumbledore knew, demonstrates that they are utterly convinced that they can do nothing effective to oppose Voldemort, surely no one else dare even try?

And no one ever does, do they, save for Neville and his followers back at school?

Now, as to the curious failure to take hostages to force Harry to fly to their rescue, that’s easily explained.

Voldemort didn’t WANT to face Harry until he knew he had a wand that could beat him.

First there’s that pesky twin-core problem that Tom has been fretting over since GoF. Finally Tom simply has done with fretting and kidnaps the wand expert to tell him what’s what. As soon as he’s tortured a possible solution out of Ollivander, Tom faces off against Harry again. Only to discover that a stick of wood cored by Fawkes’ feather is smarter and a better fighter than the boy, and Ollivander can’t tell Tom how to keep Harry’s Speshul wand from vomiting Tom’s own best (worst) magic back at him! So Tom now needs to solve this new problem before he can face Harry again (never learning, alas, that Hermione eventually solved that problem for him by breaking Harry’s Speshul wand).

So if Voldemort took Ginny hostage (or tortured the Weasleys) too soon, he’d just goad Harry into confronting him before Tom was really ready to take him on.

Moreover, Tom had learned something very valuable about Harry at that battle at the Ministry. Harry’s not like a Malfoy, taking risks ONLY for his best-beloveds. True, Tom successfully used the imaginary threat to Sirius to sucker Harry into going to the MoM. However, Bellatrix will have told Tom that a real threat to Neville (of all people!) induced Harry to agree to hand over the prophecy (which so far as Harry knew, was tantamount to handing Voldemort the ultimate victory). So while ex-girlfriends Ginny or Cho might be the best hostages for Harry from an aesthetic point of view, really almost anyone Harry knows will do in a pinch. The spattergroit-ridden Ron back at the Burrow, Professor McGonagall, Stan Shunpike. Percy.

So what does Voldie do? He leaves ALL of Harry’s old chums alone for the time being, thinking themselves safe—but the moment he’s solved the wand problem, he can pick up someone suitable easily enough. The more easily if they’ve been lulled into not expecting it. Ginny? She’s secure in Snape’s custody—except when she’s at the Burrow, whose security the DE’s have already cracked. Or if it’s not convenient to grab her when the right time finally comes, threaten anyone Harry recognizes as a friend or ally.

There’s no shortage, none at all, of potential hostages.

Because look indeed at what Tom does in canon—he gets the Elder Wand, and plays with it a while, and eventually decides he’s not really its master yet.

Oops.

Severus is Tom’s most valuable servant, and he really doesn’t want to lose him, but needs must….

And the very moment that Snape is dead and Tom is satisfied that he has, finally, a wand which will best Harry’s—well, Tom doesn’t bother looking for little Ginny, does he? Why take that trouble? No, Tom holds the whole damn SCHOOL hostage, demanding that Harry surrender within the hour or he’ll kill everyone in sight.

And Harry duly surrenders.

See? It worked. Not so stupid after all.


*

II. The Actions of the Order of the Phoenix

Consider the situation that Bill Weasley tells us about in DH Chapter 24, “The Wandmaker.” Voldemort took over at the Ministry in August. It’s now the Easter holidays of the following year, and the Weasleys are just now moving into self-Fidelius protected safe houses (and in Bill and Arthur’s cases at least, quitting their day jobs). Ginny happens to be home for the holidays, but she’d spent two terms normally at school.

Let’s think about this scenario a little from the Prophet-informed (or mis-informed) public’s point of view. Scrimegour was killed, and Thicknesse took over as Minister amid whispers that he was controlled by You-Know-Who. The Chosen One was accused of Dumbledore’s murder and declared Undesirable #1. Snape, cleared of Dumbledore’s murder, was installed as Headmaster of Hogwarts. The Chosen One disappeared with his Mu—er, Muggle-born friend. Soon Umbridge set up her Commission, and started accusing magic-users without provable Wizarding ancestry of having stolen magic (so that’s why the old Pureblood families have been suffering an increasing incidence of Squibs!). And eventually the children at Hogwarts start whispering things…

And what are the well-known Weasleys, Dumbledore’s most ardent supporters, doing in response to these outrages? Nothing. Their youngest son, known to be the Chosen One’s friend, is home sick with spattergroit. Their treasured daughter is sent to Hogwarts under Snape. Arthur and his son Percy continue to work for the Ministry; Bill continues to work for Gringotts.

And no one bothers them.

Nothin’ wrong here.

At first, the Weasleys’ compliance might have been taken as a sign that the stories about Thicknesse and Snape must be false.

Soon enough though, everyone knows the truth.

But most people continue to follow the Weasleys’ lead in pretending that everything was normal. For the Weasleys’ passivity must have demonstrated to everyone that resistance is truly futile. If the members of Dumbledore’s own Order, those best-informed by him and trained to fight Voldemort’s rise, know that there is nothing to be done but hope that Harry will save them, then surely they must be right.

The best course, the only course, is to keep your head down, pretend everything’s normal, and wait for Salvation from On Harry.

Now consider the official radio program of the so-called Resistance. What was it called again? Oh, yeah, Potterwatch.

Let’s summarize the program Harry hears. First, Lee reports on casualties attributed to Death Eaters since the last broadcast: Bathilda, 2 Muggle-borns—Dirk and Ted, 1 Goblin--Gornuk, and 5 anonymous Muggles killed by an apparent gas leak (who are sincerely mourned, really, though no wizard could be expected to be bothered to note their names).

Next, Kingsley urges witches and wizards to protect their Muggle friends and neighbors (that lets Molly off the hook—she has neither) by casting protective charms over their dwellings, Then there’s the popular “Pals of Potter” feature, in which Remus assures a rapt audience that the lack of news of Harry is sure proof that he’s alive, and that Harry is the symbol of everything for which they are fighting.

Er, what fighting would this be, Remus?

Then there’s the report on those friends of Potter who are suffering for their allegiance. (Allegiance? Harry is his own government now? Or cult?). Xeno Lovegood has been imprisoned, and Hagrid narrowly escaped an attempt to arrest him for hosting a “Support Harry Potter” party. Lee suggests that it’s wiser “to show your devotion to the man with the lightning scar by listening to Potterwatch!” Finally, Fred spreads rumors and jokes about You-Know-Who, and urges people, “don’t count on him being a long way away if you’re planning on taking any risks. I never thought I’d hear myself say it, but safety first!”

And the program ends with the inspirational: “We don’t know when it will be possible to broadcast again, but you can be sure we shall be back. Keep twiddling those dials: The next password will be ‘Mad-Eye.’ Keep each other safe: Keep faith. Good night.” (DH chapter 22)

So. The group specifically trained by Dumbledore to resist You-Know-Who instructs everyone less well-trained on how they too can most effectively oppose the new regime:

Surreptitiously protect nearby Muggles.

Don’t be stupidly blatant about your support of Potter.

Don’t do anything else except “twiddle those dials” (and your thumbs) and “keep faith”—i.e. trust Potter to do, well, something. Eventually. Someday. Just wait for it, okay?.

Hell, if I were a Nazi commandant listening to a broadcast like that from a minor Résistance faction, I wouldn’t be trying to stop that faction from broadcasting—I’d be funding them!

Or, actually, I’d be faking attacks on them to make it look like I wanted them silenced.

Yeah, that will work much better. (Dusts hands in satisfaction after making arrangements.)

Dumbledore’s followers are doing the Death Eaters’ jobs for them, keeping the general populace quiet while the Dark Lord consolidates his position.

Round up the members of the Order of the Phoenix, when they’re doing such brilliant work for us? Are you insane???

Regarding Dumbledore’s giving his adult followers such asinine instructions as “Harry is the best hope we have. Trust him,” I can only blame the man’s overwhelming hubris. He can’t bear to think that his lovely plan to sacrifice Harry might be upstaged, that anyone might do anything outside of his carefully-plotted operation that might prove at all effective in reducing Voldemort’s power or control. His way or the highway, and Albus always insisted that his “men” choose his way.

Regarding the Order going along with such stupid passivity… I mean, really, “Keep faith?” That’s the only thing you can come up with to give any sort of discomfort to the enemy? Try consulting with Charles DeGaulle, or even Corrie ten Boom, if you have no ideas of your own!

Of all the Order members, only Remus even had the gumption to so much as offer to go along to help, instruct, and protect Harry on his mysterious “mission”—and he only did so to try to get away from Tonks, pregnant with (he thought) his baby monster.

I must say, my (presumably fan-fictional) Confidere is looking better every day. That way I can just blame Dumbledore.

Absent that explanation, I can see no reason to respect a man jack (okay, or a woman jill) of the Order of the Phoenix.

Fucking Quislings all.




III. The Death Eaters

On the other side, how terrible is it in Wizarding Britain under the Death Eaters, really?

Let’s pause to consider Lee’s assertion that the death of those five nameless Muggles is “more evidence, as if it were needed, of the fact that Muggle slaughter is becoming little more than a recreational sport under the new regime.”

Um. Lee. This broadcast is in March. Late March (Easter holidays at Hogwarts), and you open by apologizing for your “temporary absence from the airwaves.” Later on you announce the two latest arrests of outspoken Potter supporters: a failed attempt that very day to arrest Hagrid, and Xenophilius Lovegood’s imprisonment.

Now, surely it’s most reasonable to suppose that Xeno was arrested just after Christmas when his attempt to betray Harry to the Death Eaters failed? And surely Lee could only attribute that arrest to Xeno’s being one “of the more outspoken Harry Potter supporters” if that December issue of the Quibbler, with “Undesirable #1” on the cover, never went out? (Well, we know that it didn’t—most of the copies were destroyed in the explosion.)

Harry expected Xeno to be punished for the failure; Hermione deliberately arranged for the DE’s to see her and Harry so they would know he’d been telling the truth about trying to catch Harry for them, so that Xeno’s punishment would be less than death. Surely Xeno didn’t get off scot-free in late December, only to take up “outspokenly” supporting Potter again (risking Luna’s life—and we did see how he felt about that) to earn a subsequent arrest in March?

Further, Lee announces as news the discovery of Bathilda’s body. How long after Voldemort was no longer animating the corpse would it take for the old lady’s death to become known? Surely not three full months? The old lady has neighbors. Muggle neighbors. Her bedroom window was smashed in the fight between the snake, Harry, and Hermione. If that’s visible though the garden (overgrown, but it’s also midwinter), the next-door neighbor would have been knocking on the door Christmas morning to see if the old lady was all right. If not, someone should soon observe that there was no longer smoke coming from that dotty old lady’s house. Muggles are perfectly capable of drawing inferences about apparently-lifeless houses known to have sheltered old people living alone. So the corpse ought to have been discovered not terribly long after Nagini stopped animating it.

(Indeed, consider that the Order specified that the corpse, when they examined it, had been dead for “several months.” Harry had just observed that it had been dead “for a while”. If you were expecting Harry to make a pilgrimage to his parents’ graves, wouldn’t you expect him to visit on the anniversary of their deaths? The Bathilda-trap may have been set just before Hallowe’en, with the Order examining the body St. Stephen’s Day.)

So Lee is announcing as hot news in late March events that likely occurred at the end of December. A temporary absence from the airwaves, indeed.

Now consider the news in this light. What have the terrible Death Eaters been doing during all this time? The “heavy casualties” suffered by Muggles amount to—five. Five deaths entirely too many, true, but hardly wholesale carnage. One family could have simply been Bellatrix’s version of a night out with her hubby. Also killed were two, count ‘em, two, Muggle-borns who refused to register and surrender their wands. And a goblin who refused to obey any wizard’s orders.

And Bathilda, who might not even have been murdered: “The Order of the Phoenix informs us that her body showed unmistakable signs of injuries inflicted by Dark Magic.” Yes, I imagine that a monstrous snake lurking inside a corpse and operating it as a puppet would leave “unmistakable signs.” But the Order doesn’t actually state that she was killed by Dark Magic, does it? We know that the corpse MUST have exhibited “unmistakable signs of injuries inflicted by Dark Magic” that were inflicted AFTER Bathilda’s demise. It’s not stated that there were also injuries inflicted before her death, though it’s not stated that there were not.

So it’s entirely possible that the crime here might be desecration of a body, rather than murder followed by the desecration of the victim’s body. Perhaps the DE’s might have approached Bathilda, planning to use her as a tool to watch for Potter. Perhaps they assumed, from the very damaging information she gave Rita, that old Batty was not a Dumbledore-fan and would gladly volunteer for the task. Or perhaps they planned to put the old lady under the Imperius. Either way, Batty resisted, and her heart gave out, and Tom decided she still could be used if he got a little creative. Or even, she was dead in her chair (having had a heart attack when she saw how Skeeter had used her) when they came knocking. Perfectly possible, and we’ll never know either way.

But even if Batty was murdered, two arrests and nine deaths in three months (three of the dead being fugitives who presumably resisted arrest) is a far cry from the unending lists whispered over the radio in the movie version, isn’t it?

Meanwhile, the Weasleys and the Dumbledore-loving Hogwarts professors continue their lives unmolested. Kingsley only had to go on the run because he disrespectfully uttered the name “Voldemort”—he wasn’t targeted as an Order member. Ted Tonks had no concerns that he might have left Andromeda facing danger—and indeed he apparently did not, she was left holding the baby in the end. Dean’s whole Muggle family is unharmed, only desperate for news of Dean.

It actually seems to be true that if you keep your head down and your mouth shut, it’s basically business as usual under the Death Eaters, Seclusion and all. (Though of course losing up to a quarter of your customer base is bad for many businesses….)

Unless you chance to be a Muggle-born, in which case you’re forced to register and to surrender your wand, and are not allowed to attend Hogwarts or to work for the Ministry.

And are made to suffer… Well, what?

Because we never actually saw any “and,” did we? We just inferred that there must be an “and,” assumed the very worst actually, based on Jo’s Nazi parallels. Surely Umbridge was going to send Mary Cattermole to a camp next, wasn’t she? Would it be a “work camp”, or immediate gassing? Those are the alternatives we immediately pictured, based on the parallels Jo suggested.

But we never saw either.

What we did see, six months later, was “the wandless” begging in Diagon Alley when the Trio went on that Gringotts raid. No camps at all for those Muggle-borns, clearly, if also no wands and no jobs in the WW.

And yet all those Muggle-borns apparently felt safer and more comfortable begging for Knuts on the Death Eater-controlled streets of Diagon Alley than repatriating to the Muggle world they were all raised in. Getting a real job (I’m imagining Vernon and Petunia’s scornful tones for that phrase) or going on the dole.

Begging from Death Eaters is preferable?

What more really needs to be said? And this is canon, folks.

Except to add that the only three Muggle-borns we know to have been killed by Voldie’s minions were all openly resisting the new regime: Ted and Dirk, and tiny Colin in the battle of Hogwarts (which you will note that both Dean and naïve little Colin lived to attend).

What of Mary Cattermole? Was she there among the beggars? Was she living with Reg still, trying to keep house and to raise Maisie, Ellie, and Alfred without a wand, and nervously urging Reg not to make waves, to keep in good with his bosses the Death Eaters? Did she escape the WW to stay with her shopkeeper sister in Lambeth, or run off with her children to Wizarding France? Or did the Trio’s “rescue” put Mary’s name, and those of the other ten Muggle-borns being registered that day, onto the list of “resistors” to be killed?

We’ll never know, will we?


But one final consideration.

During the whole time from late August to late March Voldemort himself was mostly away on the Continent, trying to trace the rumors of that unbeatable wand, the Deathstick. (He caught up with Gregorovich, tortured the memory of the merry thief out of him, and killed him, on 9/2, so he must have started researching/looking before then.) And we saw that Voldemort didn’t much want to be disturbed in that quest.

Perhaps his Death Eaters were a bit less zealous in their master’s absence?

It’s even possible that the puppet-Minister followed his illustrious predecessor Fudge’s example and asked the Hogwarts Headmaster for guidance…. Though I hardly think that Snape would dare to give advice that was actually counter to Voldemort’s standing orders. He had a task regarding Potter to complete and several hundred children under his protection, after all; he could scarcely afford to blow his cover now.

So it seems likely that the Death Eaters, with notable exceptions such as Bellatrix (observe that she’s instantly recognized and avoided by the beggars!), really don’t act so terribly when their master isn’t standing over them, wand raised, to keep them performing down to his standards.

Comments

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Wow, I only had time to skim through your first two sections (I have an exam in two 1/2 hours, eeek!) but thought-provoking stuff. You're making a lot sense. I just wish I could believe JKR had put as much thought into it as you have, but I think you're more coming up with explanations that cover her inadequacy. (and while your Voldy seems so much smarter and more villainous, it makes the Order look pretty dumb, and you know she won't have intended that; they support Harry, they're heroes!)

Back to Sociology of Doom. *headdeskwallfloor*

Headdeskwallfloor

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

My most memorable exam was taken on 1/2 hour of sleep after frantic studying. My mind shut off exactly one hour in; I spent the next two hours staring with fuzzy interest at those odd black patterns (letters, is that what they are called?) on the white paper.

This is not what I recommend. Take your damned exam, get some sleep, and comment after, borg_princess!

[oryx_leucoryx]

Thanks for returning my faith in Tom as at least a semi-competent villain!

The Order - well, I didn't have much respect for their performance, but yes, they were Tom's biggest enablers, just like their leader before. Oh, somebody made it rain in Yaxley's office. That certainly put a dent in the DE's operations. (montavilla interpreted this as Percy's 'prank' in order to surreptitiously destroy reports of Umbridge's spies on the Weasleys.)

As for the DEs - I think we know what most of them were doing - smuggling restricted and illegal substances in Aberforth's pub. Most of them weren't really into all the violence anymore so they used Tom's prolonged absence to promote their own business. In the early chapters of DH there is mention of events such as trains being derailed that Harry believes to have been caused by the DEs before the takeover (and with Tom in the country). Though I suppose some may have been the result of dementors attacking operators.

It all comes down to Rowling not working out the timeline of anything yet wanting to give 'closure' on minor points like the fate of minor characters mentioned in passing.

Tom's timeline: Harry started mentioning Gregorovitch in his sleep the night before his birthday. (He had a dream of Voldemort stalking some villager.) On the morning of Sep 1st Tom finds Gregorovitch's previous address, kills the current residents without getting any further information besides the fact that the man he is looking for no longer lives there, yet the next day he finds Gregorovitch's last home.

From Sep 2nd to Christmas Tom was trying to find out who the handsome blond thief was, until Harry handed him the photo of Albus and Gellert. Somehow it still took him until late March to realize Gellert was in the same prison cell he was locked up in back in 1945. well, I only said Tom was semi-competent.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Yay! More coherent reasoning to help make sense of those damn books. :)

You make some really good points, especially about the Quislings Order and the fact that the wandless don't return to the Muggle world.

I do have a couple of points I want to raise, though. How do we know that the identity of the Order members was widely publicly known? Potterwatch was password-protected, so presumably those running it didn't expect everyone to be tuning in, only a select group (say, for example, Order members, their families, and a few others known to the Order as sympathetic). Beyond that, what evidence is there that it was widely known that Arthur, for example, was actually a member of the Order (that is, a fighter, rather than simply a supporter of Dumbledore politically)? How well known was it that there WAS an Order?

Also, I think there is a further point that needs to be considered RE lack of hostage-taking. Your reasoning works perfectly assuming that Voldie would only have wanted to meet Harry when he was ready to fight...that is, that Voldie assumed that that encounter would be the decisive one. Yet when he holds the school hostage, he doesn't demand that Harry come *face him,* he demands that Harry either *surrender* or *be surrendered.* Which doesn't necessitate killing him at that moment.

So why didn't he have Snape bring Ginny as a hostage back at the beginning of the school year, demand that Harry surrender himself, and have the DEs capture him and hold him alive (perhaps drugged or stupefied if necessary) until he was *ready* to kill him? That way he could search for the wand at his leisure without fearing an attack from Harry while he is vulnerable, and he would have yet another way of discouraging resistance, because if the great Harry Potter is his *captive toy,* what hope is there left?

I do like the suggestion that Thicknesse was going to Severus for advice in the time-hallowed manner, though.... :)

[oryx_leucoryx]

Yes, we see inconsistency on Tom's side. On the one hand he doesn't take hostages to force harry to show up, on the other he has Bathilda's snake-animated body awaiting Harry with instructions to hold him, bite to incapacitate but not kill. Also the DEs are instructed to alert Tom if they capture Harry. So it looks like Tom was making some effort to capture Harry before he got a wand good enough to kill TBWL. Not sure how it all fits.

[oryx_leucoryx]

At the very least Arthur was broadly known as a Dumbles party-line supporter, and the Weasleys are rather prominent and easily identifiable. So at the very least Tom had the propaganda value of leaving that family unmolested. Also, the existence of the first Order became known at some point (see Horace's wish not to be associated with such an Order) and the Ministry suspected Albus of starting a private army. And if all this wasn't enough, there's Rita's book. I doubt she stopped cataloging Albus' suspicious acts in 1945. I think the book must have included at least some names of members of the first Order.

[oryx_leucoryx]

And yet all those Muggle-borns apparently felt safer and more comfortable begging for Knuts on the Death Eater-controlled streets of Diagon Alley than repatriating to the Muggle world they were all raised in. Getting a real job (I’m imagining Vernon and Petunia’s scornful tones for that phrase) or going on the dole.


Is it possible Muggle-borns couldn't have used British government services because their documentation was a bit sketchy from the time they turned 11?

(Also, for all we know hundreds of Muggle-borns could have gone back. We only see those who remained in the wizarding world because that's where Harry was and where wandless Muggle-borns are most visible.)

[duniazade.livejournal.com]

You've restored my faith in Tom, for which, many thanks!

Brilliant. It makes so much more sense in this interpretation.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Is there a way to figure out from canon hints if the months before Christmas were more violent? Perhaps what we get from the Potterwatch broadcast is an 'after the dust settled' situation?

Is there a way to estimate how many victims there were to Tom and his not-so-merry men between the Ministry battle in OOTP and the takeover in August 1997 besides the ones mentioned explicitly in canon (Amelia Bones, Emmeline Vance, the Muggles in the cars that were on the bridge that was destroyed, the victims of the 'freak tornado' aka giant attack, Florean Fortescue, Mrs Abbott, the boy that Fenrir killed, Albus, Gibbons the DE, Charity Burbage and Rufus Scrimgeour - anyone I missed)?

[oryx_leucoryx]

Information we have about the period between August and Christmas:

- Remus' report from a few days after the coup
- newspapers the trio reads at 12GP
- the overheard conversation by the river
- news Ron reports (knowing he was staying with an Order member and listening to the wireless)

Implications from the March broadcast - there must have been some Muggle killing earlier for Lee to say “more evidence, as if it were needed, of the fact that Muggle slaughter is becoming little more than a recreational sport under the new regime.”, but can we estimate if there was more of it?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Great essay, although I'm still shocked that you're supporting Rowling. It's weird what you people do sometimes; you stretch Rowling's words WAY beyond anything that either (a) we know she actually intended, or (b) the woman was capable of going herself.

But it's fun. :-)

In this case, we KNOW that the Order was a group of passive incompetents because Rowling wanted everything to revolve around Harry. Which I consider to be a lower-order flaw of the book; that everyone from Dumbledore down was happy to leave it to a teenage boy to take on the dark wizard. But Rowling didn't seize the bull by the horns and actually address this - 'no-one is doing anything because they've been told it's up to Harry' - instead she tries to make us believe that the Order is fighting a fair dinkum war. But getting nowhere.

Re your point #1, as Oryx said, there's inconsistency there in Riddle's actions. He sets the trap with Nagini, they summon him when the Trio are brought to the manor, etc. But I do like your argument. See, I find it difficult to remember or use that Harry's speshul :-) wand going into auto-pilot mode and belching golden flame thing, because it was just so BLOODY STUPID. The first of the blatant dei ex machina shoehorned in to get Rowling past a plot point. But you are just so right. The more I think about it the more it makes sense. If Riddle took that seriously - and he had to, he was in the book and knocked for a loop - then he wouldn't want to face Harry until he had the deus ex machina stick up his sleeve. For PR reasons as well as health reasons.

Yes, I like it, good one.

I like #2 also, can't argue with that. I've called the DEs 'Keystone Cops', but yes, the Order was pathetic too. Now that springs back to Rowling writing Dumbledore as the omnipotent 'leader' who shared NOTHING with his followers ... with said followers dumbly accepting this. More plot nonsense to ridicule. But it does end up with things as you describe.

So why were the Weasleys finally forced to hide? Around Easter? Riddle still didn't have the super stick at that point, did he?

I thought there was a definite line about pseudo 'prison camps' in the book somewhere for the muggleborn, even if we didn't actually see them. But I had a quick look and couldn't find it.

Nice essay. Bit of a shock to realise that the Keystone Cops thing was warranted, even if it was all set up to support the contrived Boy Hero Against the World schtick.

[oryx_leucoryx]

So why were the Weasleys finally forced to hide? Around Easter?

The canon reason given is that Ron was seen at Malfoy Manor, therefore proving the spattergroit thing was a ruse - meaning the Weasley family was all in on it, actively supporting Harry's 'secret mission' all along. The Weasleys didn't know the reason they were left alone all along was the search for the superstick, they thought they were safe as long as they were not seen to be doing anything in Harry's support.

I thought there was a definite line about pseudo 'prison camps' in the book somewhere for the muggleborn, even if we didn't actually see them. But I had a quick look and couldn't find it.

We see 10 Muggleborns escorted by dementors at the Ministry, we don't know where they were going to be sent afterwards had the trio not intervened. (Nor do we know where they ended up after said intervention.) Even after his prolonged stay with Bill Ron has no news about the fate of any Muggleborns, nor do we hear anything at Shell Cottage later on, or from Xeno or anyone who was out among wizards that year.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

So why were the Weasleys finally forced to hide? Around Easter?

The canon reason given is that Ron was seen at Malfoy Manor, therefore proving the spattergroit thing was a ruse --

But our heroes flee from the Manor straight to Shell Cottage, where Bill & Co. have been hiding for days/weeks. Ron knew all about it (divulging the Secret to Harry & Dobby, even though he wasn't a Secret Keeper, one of DH's logic flaws) before they're caught and taken to the manor.

What am I missing?

[oryx_leucoryx]

My understanding is the Fidelius was cast while the kids were burying Dobby. When he first arrives Harry can see the cottage, which means it wasn't under Fidelius yet. Bill realizes there is some trouble, he casts Fidelius and alerts the rest of the family (in whichever order), they move to Muriel's and cast Fidelius with Arthur as Secret Keeper, Bill brings the kids inside and thus allows them to see the cottage again.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Ah, no, that's incorrect; it's a fair dinkum DH error, as far as I can see.

You'll recall that Remus Lupin arrives *after* Harry and co. seek refuge at the house. Remus wasn't there when Harry caught the Dobby express. Yet Remus states that the Fidelius was placed on the house at some time in the past:

"It is I, Remus John Lupin!" called a voice over the howling wind. Harry experienced a thrill of fear; what had happened? "I am a werewolf, married to Nymphadora Tonks, and you, the Secret-Keeper of Shell Cottage, told me the address and bade me come in an emergency!"

So the Charm was placed on the cottage *before* Harry and co. turned up. Ron wasn't the Secret Keeper - Bill, "the Secret-Keeper of Shell Cottage", was. Yet Ron can tell Harry and Dobby the secret.

I see it as a flat-out DH error. Do you agree?

[oryx_leucoryx]

I disagree. Bill could have told Remus the Secret by Patronus or note. Anyway the burial took so long Bill had time to hop among all homes of Order members and give them the location.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

We'll have to disagree on this one; your theory is too far-fetched for me. To much invention shoehorned into the white space over a very short period of time - Dobby's burial, a couple of pages. And absolutely nothing mentioned as to all this to- and -froing that Bill was doing, setting up the Fidelius, Owling everyone. Harry suddenly not seeing the cottage again. Bill not telling him the Secret. No. Your theory is heaps more complicated than the far simpler hypothesis that Rowling simply got it wrong.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I just checked chapter 24 of DH. It's pretty explicit that the Weasleys only just went into hiding, Bill was there helping them move to Muriel's place and it was lucky that it happened when Ginny was on vacation from school. Which means that until the trio's escape from Malfoy Manor the Weasleys were living openly. It is also stated that the reason for the change was that Ron was seen. And is consistent with Hermione hiding Ron at Xeno's. So we already know Bill wasn't at the cottage the entire time Harry and friends were burying Dobby, because he just said he helped the Weasleys move. How hard is it to send a Patronus to Remus and whoever else Bill wanted to be able to visit him? Or to Apparate to the Tonks home for a few seconds?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

"I've been getting them all out of the Burrow," he explained. "Moved them to Muriel's. The Death Eaters know Ron's with you now, they're bound to target the family –don’t apologize,"

Okay, I can see that timing now, thank you.

However I still think there's a clear error with the Fidelius on Shell Cottage. You mentioned that Harry could see the cottage when they first arrived. He's left alone to dig the grave. The others turn up at the end - including Bill - but Bill says NOTHING to Harry. There is NOTHING of a Secret mentioned; and this scene is running in real time, we're seeing everything Harry sees, hearing everything he hears. Harry asks to be left alone; and -

-- he felt gentle pats upon his back, and then they all traipsed back toward the cottage, leaving Harry alone beside the elf.

Harry see the cottage. He's alone. He carves the headstone and then walks to the cottage and enters it before he sees Bill again.

So there's a continuous period there were Harry sees the cottage (upon arrival), you say that Bill cast the Fidelius, he still sees the cottage, he enters it, Bill tells him the house is under the Fidelius. Nowhere there do we see Bill telling or giving him the Secret.

Even if you were to say that Harry didn't 'see' the cottage the second time, he just assumed they were 'traipsing' back to it, say it was hidden from Harry ... he still entered it after carving the headstone without being told the Secret.

I happily accept the correction on the fleeing of the Weasleys to Muriel's, thank you (after 4 years my one perusal of DH seems to be fading!). But I can't see how Harry's seeing the cottage is anything but a Rowling error.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Hmm, this leaves the option that Bill cast the Fidelius around everyone after they all arrived, with Dobby's grave inside the protections. Yes, I know, Rowling couldn't be bothered to keep her story consistent so why should we?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Yes, I know, Rowling couldn't be bothered to keep her story consistent so why should we?

Because we're better than Rowling. Because we're picking fault with Rowling. Because we have better standards - of logic, of 'professionalism' - than Rowling (or her zombie disciples). Because 'inconsistency' is a large part of the very substance of Rowling's errors!

Because I'm saying "Rowling made a mistake!". And you're saying "no she didn't, but I can't prove that she wasn't in error without myself being in error". Which means that the case is proven; Rowling was in error. That error being that she was 'inconsistent' with her Fidelius details; sometimes she remembered them, sometimes she forgot. Resulting in a failed story that's broken in several places according to the laws of her own fictional world. This Shell Cottage scene being one of them.

I don't understand why you were fighting so hard to try and save Rowling from this mistake - you're generally happy to berate Rowling for her many faults, I thought from conversing with you over the past year - but I'm glad we reached an agreement at the end. You can concede that Rowling was 'inconsistent' in this instance; as that can be considered as the nature of the flat-out 'mistake', the root cause of the 'error' with which I charged her of being guilty of writing, I can live with that. :-)

[oryx_leucoryx]

Yes, Rowling is inconsistent and that is one reason the story she actually wrote is very different from the one she thought she was writing.

I don't understand why you were fighting so hard to try and save Rowling from this mistake

In part because the magic can be fan-wanked. And in part because I mis-remembered a detail of the sequence of Harry's entrance to the cottage.

The bigger problem with the Shell Cottage Fidelius is that Bill was the secret keeper. Causing many readers to wonder why the Potters thought to use Sirius or Peter at all. A pro-Rowling fan-wank is that following the Godric's hollow disaster Albus changed the Fidelius spell (begging the question why he didn't do so in the first place - perhaps he wanted the Potters to turn to him?). But other explanations are that when Albus explained the spell to the Potters he led them to believe they needed an outsider Secret Keeper (assuming they would choose him), or that the Potters knew they could be Secret Keepers but decided on the Sirius and later Peter-with-Sirius-as-front option because the idea of tricking Voldie with such a sophisticated plan was more appealing than a safer but more boring option.

The difference between the 2 instances is that the first has very little influence on the understanding of this and other instances when Fidelius was used (all it means is that the spell can extend to the area outside of the house - which in a way we know - the Fidelius at 12GP extends to the porch outside the front door - and that people can be inside the protected area when the spell is being cast), while the second changes the reading of something very essential to the story.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree as to the 'bigger problem' with the Fidelius, which undercuts the entire series. Just another example of Rowling not remembering her previous books and simply not thinking through the repercussions of what she was quickly slapping down on paper.

There are a number of flaws with the Fidelius throughout the series. However this particular exchange between us was dealing just with the Shell Cottage error. The mistake might not have a huge influence on the series as a whole but it's a neat error which can be proven as such.

all it means is that the spell can extend to the area outside of the house - which in a way we know - the Fidelius at 12GP extends to the porch outside the front door

No, the mistake for Shell Cottage is that Harry was able to see the cottage without being told the secret. That has nothing to do with the coverage of the spell - or rather, that's only part of the rescue attempt; the fan-wanking has to go further and insert more details-on-behalf-of-the-author-to-rescue-the-author. You're saying that people 'covered' by the spell when it's established don't have to be told the Secret. Which is a separate, second bit of CPR on Rowling's behalf.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Well, it helps understand how a baby can be protected by a Fidelius. Bring hir in and cast the spell, no need for hir to hear or understand the secret. The same would go for an unconscious person.

We already had the case of Yaxley supposedly learning the secret of 12GP by being dragged inside by Hermione during Apparition.

Anyway, I said, I misremembered a detail - I thought Harry was led into the cottage by Bill, which would make it like the Yaxley and Hermione case.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Albus explained the spell to the Potters he led them to believe they needed an outsider Secret Keeper (assuming they would choose him)

One really has to ask, WHY would the Potters choose someone else if Albus offered. Why choose Sirius? In some way they would be putting him in danger or really any of their friends. So why not have Albus, the supposed greatest wizard, who apparently knows and has Spies to tell him their child is in danger.

Why would you go choose someone else to involve in it. Even if Sirius/Peter are their best friends thats still putting them in MORE danger. Their friends and themselves.

So one could question why they choose not to trust Dumbledore with this responsibility.

If you want to look at it another way. Another thing one could snag out of the situation is that we KNOW Dumbledore is working for what he believes is the 'greater good'. He is willing to sacrifice people for this concept of the greater good.

Dumbledore gets this prophecy and literally LETS Snape take it to Voldemort. No general in their right mind would have let a spy walk out of the room. In any other military situation Snape would have been locked up, interrigated and/or killed. YET, Dumbledore allows Snape to leave. We know that Dumbledore saw Snape because Trelawaney saw Snape.

So what does that say about Dumbledore? HE allowed Snape to leave, and potentially take the prophecy to Voldemort. And thats exactly what he did.

IF Dumbledore allowed that to happen, is it quite possible that he sort of allowed the Potters to strike out on their own for purposes of serving the greater good? In other words IF Dumbledore so SET in serving the greater good.

Then isn't it serving the greater good to allow Voldemort to meet up with his potential destroyer? Does protecting Lily and James mean more to the greater good? Or does letting Voldemort be destroyed serve the greater good?

Really, JKR wants to make it out that Dumbledore is great...but seriously, it really we see that DD is willing to let people die because it serves a purpose. He even uses his own death as a tool to serve the 'greater good'. So doesn't Lily and James death serve the greater good in allowing Voldemort to come face to face with baby Harry.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Then isn't it serving the greater good to allow Voldemort to meet up with his potential destroyer? Does protecting Lily and James mean more to the greater good? Or does letting Voldemort be destroyed serve the greater good?

And let us not forget that Dumbles chose just that time to take James' invisibility cloak away, so that Dumbles could "study" it...

Dumbles had to have known that James had the cloak long before the Potters had to go into hiding, so it's mighty suspicious that he chose that particular moment to remove what could have been a valuable tool for the Potters to use in hiding from Voldie...

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Someone has suggested before that one reason the Potters didn't entirely trust DD is because they had been hearing all sorts of stories from Bathilda Bagshot about his relationship with Grindelwald.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I think I've also seen the theory that the fidelius on the Potters was hiding the Potters themselves, while the fidelius on shell cottage was only hiding the house.

Maybe if you're the secret-keeper of a fidelius cast on your own person it makes it impossible to ever tell anyone else the secret.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Filius' explanation indicates that's what the Potters did, but then does this mean the three of them became invisible? Why would they need to stay indoors? And if the house is visible but not the occupants, why would Tom need Peter? Just release some poison in the house.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

----Why would they need to stay indoors?

Did they need to stay indoors once the charm was cast? At the time that Lily wrote her letter and mentioned James going stir-crazy, I don't think they were under the fidelius yet.

----And if the house is visible but not the occupants, why would Tom need Peter? Just release some poison in the house.

I like the theories that Tom planned on using Harry's murder to make his final horcrux. He would probably have needed to see Harry in order to do that.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Why? Tom wasn't even present when Hepzibah Smith died, he just Imperiurized Hokey to poison her. Yet he supposedly Horcruxified the cup with her death.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Well, according to Albus, Tom wasn't there.

I really like Jodel's theory of how Tom made his horcruxes, where he possessed his victims before killing them, and she argues that Tom could easily have been present when Hepzibah died.

[oryx_leucoryx]

But even if Tom was planning to be there, the Potters didn't know he was - they didn't know about the Horcruxes. So why did they choose a protection that could be overcome so easily?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Because James was going crazy with cabin fever and Albus had his cloak and so if he put himself under fidelius he would be able to leave the house.

[oryx_leucoryx]

So what was going on in James' head when he answered the door?

If the spell was on the house, then assuming Peter was loyal (and ignoring all other ways Voldemort might have been able to get the secret from him - torture, Imperius, Confundus, Legilimency, possession, who knows) only Sirius or Peter should have been able to make it to the door. But if the spell was on him - anyone could be there - friend, foe, trick or treaters, salespeople, what not, with the difference that to anyone but Peter or Sirius *he* would be invisible. So what was the plan if there was an army of DEs at the door - sneak past them?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

James didn't answer the door. He heard Voldemort burst it open and stupidly ran towards it without his wand.

Even if it was the house that was under fidelius, the sound of the door being blasted open should have been an indicator that something might be wrong.

[oryx_leucoryx]

So unless Peter and/or Sirius were in the habit of blasting into the house James' behavior has no logical explanation either way. Nor is there a way to tell from the Potters' behavior which version of Fidelius they used.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Yeah, pretty much. James was just an idiot.....

I'd really like to know what JKR was thinking when she wrote that scene.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

It's just plain dumb, one would have expected a fight or something but the dumbass just runs to the door to hold Voldie off..without a wand? WHA?

What do we learn about James? He didn't mind hexing every second kid in the corridors at Hogwarts while he was a teenager but when his life and family's life is in danger and depending on him he forgets he should be carring his wand around 99.99% of the time?

JKR and fans can go on and on about how Horrible Snape was...but seriously WTF kind of dumbass was James. Snape is practically 99.99% right about the guy.

And it isn't like James grew up muggle where maybe was used to not having a wand...the dude was a pureblood and was exposed to magic all his life. Shouldn't a wand have felt more like an extention of his arm seeing as how he grew up purebood?

And I don't get WHY they wouldn't have some sort of escape tunnel created? Magical people can...MAKE crap, and James and Lily were stated to being so "UBER" Special with magic. WTH didn't they have some kind of escape plan worked out already, like a tunnel or hidden door or...something.

Lazy, sloppy and dumb for poeple spoken of as being great. And JKR didn't show them in any good light that night or show them as being this amazing 'brilliant' magic people.

The both acted like people who had never been around magic. The whole scene would have made 100% more sense if JKR had made Harry a muggleborn and both his parents would have been muggles.

[oryx_leucoryx]

WTH didn't they have some kind of escape plan worked out already, like a tunnel or hidden door or...something.

Exactly. Sure, their plan has to fail because they have to die, but show them trying something serious and appropriate and failing rather than being caught like deer in the headlights. (Heck, maybe that's the true meaning of the deer symbolism and Potters.)

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I saw a female doe in a field sunday...I did not think of Snape...I was more thinking, stay over there stupid, please don't walk out in front of my car. So yea, maybe they're patronus/animagus fits better than JKR intended.

Don't know how much experience she has with actual deer =/

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

It's just plain dumb, one would have expected a fight or something but the dumbass just runs to the door to hold Voldie off..without a wand? WHA?

Lily was just as stupid as her husband. We know from Snape's memory that Lily could, if not actually fly without a broom, at least hang in the air for several moments and then come to a soft, safe landing...

So when she heard the ruckus downstairs, why didn't she just grab her wand & baby Harry, AND JUMP OUT THE DAMN WINDOW? :-P

[detritius.livejournal.com]

I thought there was a definite line about pseudo 'prison camps' in the book somewhere for the muggleborn, even if we didn't actually see them. But I had a quick look and couldn't find it.

There may be another mention that I've forgotten, but as far as I remember, the only reference to any kind of prison other than Azkaban was the one where Grindelwald was. Nurmeguard, or something, I think. Hermione tells Harry that after Dumbledore defeated him, Grindelwald was locked up in his own prison for extra irony. I think that's also the place that had "for the greater good" emblazoned on it somewhere. I don't have the book on hand to check.

If there was any mention of Voldemort having his own prisons and/or camps as well, I've since forgotten. As it is, it just seems to me like Rowling couldn't even be consistent with her WWII parallels.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

This is brilliant, as always. But did Rowling really put this much thought into it?

[oryx_leucoryx]

Severus and Bellatrix were among the chasers. Hardly cannon fodder. Or, IOW - if they were cannon fodder then no DE wasn't.

Anyway, the search for the Elder Wand started because Lucius' wand proved an insufficient solution to the problem of Harry. Ollivander told Tom that using a different wand should solve the problem of the twin cores. Harry's wand destroyed Lucius'. So Tom tortured Ollivander some more and got the information that possibly there was an even better wand, and that Gregorovich was the last rumored to have owned it.

Xeno

[oryx_leucoryx]

In the broadcast his arrest is described as the arrest of an outspoken supporter of Harry, yet a month after the same broadcast Neville explains to Harry how the DEs got the idea to send Dawlish after Gran (about two weeks before the battle) once they saw how successful the kidnapping of Luna turned out in silencing Xeno. Is it possible Xeno's arrest was not immediately after his failed attempt to hand Harry in? Or did Neville find out through other channels about Xeno's attempts to help the DEs in exchange for Luna?

[oryx_leucoryx]

You know what an other consequence of Tom's absence during most of his 9 months regime was? There was nobody around to add more Dark Marks.

You'd expect that once it is clear that Tom owns the government there would be band-wagon jumpers who would want to join the ruling group. Sympathizers. Or people who were willing to support the ideology if that would improve their employment situation. Or those who thought that by taking an active role in the new regime they would avoid suspicion.

But there was no way to join. Not fully, not in the manner that gets one called whenever the master wants everyone's attention. They could participate in Dolores' anti-Muggleborn campaign, like Runcorn did. Or run around in the woods, catching school drop-outs, Muggle-borns refusing to register and other runaways.

According to GOF there were some 30+ DEs in the circle. Add Severus who joined them a couple of hours later and the 10 prisoners that got broken out the following winter. But Tom wasn't doing much recruiting - he got Draco. Fenrir as a loose associate. Stan Shunpike and maybe the two others that were arrested with him. Barely 50 under the most favorable conditions. But we must subtract the losses: Gibbons died during the tower battle. Perhaps some prisoners died - of the 11 captured in OOTP 6 are never mentioned again, and they include Nott who was both elderly and badly injured at the time of his arrest. Some 4-8 died in the 7P battle.

Just when it was time to do serious recruiting - Tom disappears for the continent. How can one run a country like this?

So who were those black-robed figures in the battle of Hogwarts? Some 40 DEs (fewer, actually - the Carrows were captured before the battle, Severus didn't participate, Draco was following a personal agenda, Peter died, Lucius had no wand, possibly a few others were killed by Tom earlier that day when he heard the bad news about the cup). I suppose the rest were Imperius-controlled puppets?

[oryx_leucoryx]

I had another thought: The trio saw the wandless Muggle-borns begging from Travers in early May, over a month after Tom's return to Britain. Are we to understand that even after his return he was letting 'business' slide? Too busy experimenting with his new toy, trying to make it work as described in the literature?

Anyway, if he was trying to enlarge his magically-connected force, this one month was the time. If Runcorn or any of the Snatchers wanted their tattoos now was their opprtunity. (But would they still want them after learning of the fate of Scabior et al?)