GOF Chapter 33: The Death Eaters
Aug. 19th, 2011 03:33 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslockVoldemort enjoys having his new body. Doesn't care much about Peter, though. Peter who was thoughtful enough to place the wand with which he killed Cedric into the robes he prepared for Tom. Possibly while Harry was not looking due to scar-pain. Tom's first use of his wand in his new body is to levitate Peter and drop him. Peter is begging for something Tom had promised him (perhaps that he would heal his arm afterwards?), but Tom has other priorities - he wants to see Peter's other arm, the left one, with the Mark. (Do we know if Peter is left handed? Because twice he mutilated his right one.) The Mark is back now, vivid and red. I think we are meant to understand Peter had it since before Godric's Hollow, though we don't know how long before. Since I still think pre-GH!Tom still had most of his marbles I tend to think Peter got Marked in the last week of the war, possibly as a reward for bringing Tom the Secret of the Potters' location (because Tom's favorite manner of rewarding loyal servants is to give them more opportunities to risk their lives for his causes).
Tom presses Peter's Mark - it turns black (apparently on the arm of every DE alive). So if Tom wants to call his army he needs at least one of them in immediate proximity. An odd way to handicap oneself. This is also the last plot-significant action by Peter. If Tom had let him die nothing significant would have changed, except perhaps we would have seen Barty's expectation to be rewarded with greater disbelief.
Returning to Voldemort is brave (unless you are Peter Pettigrew). Staying away is foolish. Because he Cruciates those who return and chases to the death those who do not. Until the end, when he killed his own people too.
Tom shares with Harry the story of his birth. Mostly based on what Morfin told him. Though the bit about Tom Sr leaving Merope when she told him she was a witch is his own made up speculation. He doesn't mind Harry knowing he was a half-blood. Well, he didn't expect Harry to survive. But he doesn't mind Peter overhearing them either. Because which DE would listen to him anyway?
Here comes his true family. This choice of words reminds me of Scott Atran's thesis that terrorist organizations act as 'fictive kin' to their members. See for his Aha! moment. Did the DEs play Quidditch together? Heck, Regulus was a Seeker. If Tom used the same recruitment tactics as Al-Qaidah then perhaps much of the Slytherin Quidditch team (for many years) may have ended up in the organization. (This also supports the fanwank of Bellatrix coming to Hogwarts for Quidditch games of her cousins Evan Rosier and later Regulus Black and using that opportunity to sound out potential recruits.) However it turns out Tom treated his chosen family only slightly better than his biological one.
The DEs form a circle around Tom (and thus also Harry and Peter), leaving gaps for the dead, the captured and the otherwise absent.
Tom isn't happy with DEs who used the Imperius plea or other means to remain free. Because they didn't use this freedom to bring him back. Hmm. The DEs knew the steps Tom took to guard himself against 'mortal death' (is there any other kind?) Really? He may have boasted that he used some measure, I doubt he announced the specifics.
Oooh! Tom accuses the DEs of aligning themselves with Albus! Is this about Severus?
Anyway, based on past experience, what Harry should have done now is yelled something about how Dumbly was the bestest wizard ever. That would have brought Fawkes to him and solved his troubles.
What's the deal with Avery? What makes him beg for forgiveness for all of them? Elkins had essays about how he was a remorseful DE. In OOTP he appears to be a DE with some ties at the Ministry, perhaps works there, who brings Tom false information about who can remove prophecies from their shelves. He is one of the DEs who participates in the Ministry raid and gets captured there - and is never heard from again. Did he deliberately provide false information to stall Tom's progress? We'll never know.
Torturing Avery was the second act of magic the returned Tom does with his wand. The third is creating Peter's silver prosthetic hand. A hand strong enough to crush a twig. And to strangle Peter to death. Tom warns Peter about wavering loyalty. Did Peter's loyalty waver when he was strangling Harry despite orders to bring Harry alive or when he let go of him?
Peter stands to Lucius' left. Hmm. Tom refers to the levitation of Muggles by the DEs as 'Muggle torture'. So when we hear someone accused of torture we don't need to jump to the conclusion that the Cruciatus was employed. Lucius attempts to excuse his inaction over the years in there being no hint regarding Tom's whereabouts. If indeed Lucius arranged for the Lestranges to torture the Longbottoms in order to get rid of Bella, by suggesting the Longbottoms may have such information, it all looks beautifully ironic.
On Lucius' right is the gap for the Lestranges. Who will be honored, certainly. With being assigned more missions for Tom. Honored beyond their dreams? To quote Terri from Lord Voldemort and the Servant Problem
Honored beyond his dreams, indeed! Though if you want to get technical about it, Barty undoubtedly had had dreams of being Kissed by a Dementor. Frequently, even. And I’m sure that the three Lestranges, once escaped, had had nightmares of being sent on another raid, captured, and sent back to Azkaban. Which is what happened to two of them; only chance and her own competence (not Lord Voldemort’s protection) preserved Bella from the same fate.
He takes this opportunity to announce that the dementors will join them. Not rejoin or return. The dementors were the Ministry's so far. They will recall the banished giants. Well, 2 of them. He shall have all his devoted servants returned to him - OK, he will break Bella out of Azkaban. Does he consider anyone else as devoted? Barty already has the DADA curse on his head. He'll have an army of creatures whom all fear. What was this about? He already mentioned the dementors (who were more like free agents most of the time). Who else did he have? There was Fenrir. But no other werewolf is shown to be promoting Tom's goals. And when the DEs camp in the Forbidden Forest the spiders invade the school (and capture Hagrid). That's it.
But here in the graveyard he sounds like he actually has a plan.
Tom addresses only some DEs. And all those he mentions by name will turn out to have already been cleared. He wasn't paying them compliments, he was pointing them out to others as negative examples. In Tom's eyes, the best are those who tried to find him and failed. Next are those who died or got caught and couldn't seek him. They are followed by those who were never suspected. Worse are those who were suspected but actively denied him by claiming Imperius. And the ultimate worst are those two who chose not to come back (so far).
Crabbe and Goyle are the largest DEs. In HBP Rowle (yet unnamed) will be described as enormous. Maybe he too was in Azkaban. Nott appears to be a geriatric DE.
Now I'm wondering if even after the graveyard reunion the DEs were out about their participation to those DEs they didn't know well before. Of the DEs that participated in the Ministry battle in OOTP 6 were known Azkaban veterans, 5 were Imperius claimants. Jugson was the only new name. Were the Imperius guys chosen by Lucius because he had interacted with them in the past? Did they volunteer in attempt to remedy their position with Tom? Or did he pick them because now that Tom outed them he certainly knew them too? Was Jugson another of the ex-prisoners? OTOH the Carrows are not among those Tom was displeased enough with to mention. Two sadistic and not very smart siblings that just blended in wizarding society and were never suspected? Goyle didn't participate in the Ministry raid. Because Lucius has standards? In fact, this is Goyle Sr's last appearance in canon. Perhaps he found the winning formula - be so incompetent nobody would want him to do stuff.
The one too cowardly to return will be punished, the one who left forever will be killed. Before OOTP many readers took this threat to mean Severus couldn't return to spying on Tom, that his exposure by Igor and Albus' subsequent defense made it impossible. As it turned out, he managed to dodge that bullet.
Of course this raises the question of Ludo - was he a DE or not? Since he isn't one of those reprimanded for not showing up then if he was a DE he must have been in the circle (rather than dodging goblins somewhere). But he wasn't mentioned as one who denied his master either, and he clearly denies any connection to Tom in his sentencing. Well so did Barty. So the only way Ludo could have been a DE was if like Barty he played an important role in Tom's return. For instance by putting up the Triwizard Tournament. Oh well, back to square one on the question of Ludo.
Lucius asks for more exposition. He knows this is a way to distract his master with something he enjoys. That Lucius dares to ask, that he can speak on his own without being Cruciated, together with Tom directing the most detailed criticism to him earlier suggests he is the highest ranking DE of those present. But by the time he was out of school there were already not only Tom's original school friends but also enough of the next generation to have the early stages of Tom's campaign underway for a couple of years already. When did Lucius rise to his position? How did he surpass those of higher levels of cruelty? Did he manage to gain a position that put him mostly outside most of the action by taking the role of financial backer or recruiter? Or perhaps he only rose to the higher status at the very tail end of the war, when most top people (such as Dolohov who was around from day 1 and stood out both in cruelty and fighting ability) got arrested or killed?
In any case, Tom obliges. He seems eager to share his story. What drama! Maybe he should write his own book? He could easily outdo Rita Skeeter.
Of Lily's blood protection: "this is old magic. I should have remembered it" - not "I should have figured it out" - doesn't this sound like something that was known, based on experience, even if a very rare occurrence? Tom is confident he got it right this time around - he makes a point of touching Harry in front of the crowd of DEs, without having tried in private beforehand. "Pain beyond pain, my friends" - poor Tommy. My heart bleeds for him. But he was top immortality researcher and one or more of his multiple experiments must have worked. The DEs were aware his goal was to conquer death. How many of them joined in hope that once his work was perfected he might share his achievement with them? (No, he never planned to do so. He didn't need competition.)
If he wanted a DE to find him, why hide in Albania? How were any of them supposed to locate him? Why not go to, say, Bella's home? I guess he didn't trust any of them? Perhaps he knew why? Possessing animals shortened their lives. I doubt Quirrell would have lasted much longer than he did regardless of Harry. Perhaps Tom delayed physically possessing him because he doubted he'd survive long enough? Quirrell was foolish and gullible - very similar to Quirrellmort's description of his former self. He was easy to bend to Tom's will. Was Quirrell put under some kind of magical compulsion or was he convinced of Tom's arguments for the superiority of power over anything else?
Tom isn't aware of events that took place between Quirrell's death and Peter's arrival. It seems Peter didn't bother to tell him about COS events. I suppose he didn't expect that story to go down well. But he did tell Tom how rats perceived him. Tom likes such compliments, no matter how lowly the source. Why did Peter enter the inn in human form? Rats can find food rather easily. Perhaps he recognized Bertha and expected capturing her to earn him points? Tom says Peter displayed unexpected presence of mind - ahem, he's the one who faked his death most convincingly in front of many witnesses! I think Tom fears Peter might acquire a following among the DEs and is quick to squash it.
How did Tom interrogate Bertha? Was he already in Babymort form? Did he possess her for a while and 'read' her mind from the inside? He was able to punish Quirrell, both in vapor form and while possessing him. Neither required a wand.
Tom implies the creation of BabyMort was his own invention. Did all previous makers of Horcruxes end up as ghost-like beings? Or did Tom fare worse than his predecessors because he was killed by his own AK, shortly after 2 AKs that tore his soul even further than it already was? Anyway, it seems BabyMort was formed shortly before they left Albania, so probably after Bertha was dead. (Though if Nagini was Horcruxified with her death than Babymort must have been created while she was still alive.) Tom sounds like returning to his body was a temporary measure before pursuing a Philosophers' Stone or the equivalent. Perhaps he was hoping to avoid being reduced to vapor again. However we never see him doing anything of the like. Unless it was happening during HBP, when Harry had no Voldievisions.
His revival was due to an old piece of Dark Magic. So it was done before? I'm getting confused. Does this mean previous Horcrux makers made themselves new bodies without going through a baby stage? But only Harry's Gary Stu blood could make Tom more powerful than before. Tom knows about the protection at 4PD (a year before Albus told Harry about it)? was that something Peter picked up at some point - spying on Dumbles in rat form? Or was this information Albus arranged for Quirrell to find out? Or did Voldie attempt to invade 4PD in vapor form?
Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there ...
This does sound like he tried. Maybe during the weeks just before Harry's 11th birthday? Anyway, Tom believes the protection is localized, if he even considered kidnapping Harry from the QWC. So instead he decided to have his servant bring Harry to him as Triwizard Champion. And didn't consider any of the many other options to have Harry sent to him from Hogwarts. Ah! Finally Tom can Cruciate Harry properly! What satisfaction he must have felt. And the DEs laugh. Because at last it isn't one of them who is suffering.
Now that Tom has shown he can touch Harry and cast spells on him, he is confident enough to face him in a public duel. Peter will return him his wand. And once he is dead he will be fed to Nagini as promised.
Tom presses Peter's Mark - it turns black (apparently on the arm of every DE alive). So if Tom wants to call his army he needs at least one of them in immediate proximity. An odd way to handicap oneself. This is also the last plot-significant action by Peter. If Tom had let him die nothing significant would have changed, except perhaps we would have seen Barty's expectation to be rewarded with greater disbelief.
Returning to Voldemort is brave (unless you are Peter Pettigrew). Staying away is foolish. Because he Cruciates those who return and chases to the death those who do not. Until the end, when he killed his own people too.
Tom shares with Harry the story of his birth. Mostly based on what Morfin told him. Though the bit about Tom Sr leaving Merope when she told him she was a witch is his own made up speculation. He doesn't mind Harry knowing he was a half-blood. Well, he didn't expect Harry to survive. But he doesn't mind Peter overhearing them either. Because which DE would listen to him anyway?
Here comes his true family. This choice of words reminds me of Scott Atran's thesis that terrorist organizations act as 'fictive kin' to their members. See for his Aha! moment. Did the DEs play Quidditch together? Heck, Regulus was a Seeker. If Tom used the same recruitment tactics as Al-Qaidah then perhaps much of the Slytherin Quidditch team (for many years) may have ended up in the organization. (This also supports the fanwank of Bellatrix coming to Hogwarts for Quidditch games of her cousins Evan Rosier and later Regulus Black and using that opportunity to sound out potential recruits.) However it turns out Tom treated his chosen family only slightly better than his biological one.
The DEs form a circle around Tom (and thus also Harry and Peter), leaving gaps for the dead, the captured and the otherwise absent.
Tom isn't happy with DEs who used the Imperius plea or other means to remain free. Because they didn't use this freedom to bring him back. Hmm. The DEs knew the steps Tom took to guard himself against 'mortal death' (is there any other kind?) Really? He may have boasted that he used some measure, I doubt he announced the specifics.
Oooh! Tom accuses the DEs of aligning themselves with Albus! Is this about Severus?
Anyway, based on past experience, what Harry should have done now is yelled something about how Dumbly was the bestest wizard ever. That would have brought Fawkes to him and solved his troubles.
What's the deal with Avery? What makes him beg for forgiveness for all of them? Elkins had essays about how he was a remorseful DE. In OOTP he appears to be a DE with some ties at the Ministry, perhaps works there, who brings Tom false information about who can remove prophecies from their shelves. He is one of the DEs who participates in the Ministry raid and gets captured there - and is never heard from again. Did he deliberately provide false information to stall Tom's progress? We'll never know.
Torturing Avery was the second act of magic the returned Tom does with his wand. The third is creating Peter's silver prosthetic hand. A hand strong enough to crush a twig. And to strangle Peter to death. Tom warns Peter about wavering loyalty. Did Peter's loyalty waver when he was strangling Harry despite orders to bring Harry alive or when he let go of him?
Peter stands to Lucius' left. Hmm. Tom refers to the levitation of Muggles by the DEs as 'Muggle torture'. So when we hear someone accused of torture we don't need to jump to the conclusion that the Cruciatus was employed. Lucius attempts to excuse his inaction over the years in there being no hint regarding Tom's whereabouts. If indeed Lucius arranged for the Lestranges to torture the Longbottoms in order to get rid of Bella, by suggesting the Longbottoms may have such information, it all looks beautifully ironic.
On Lucius' right is the gap for the Lestranges. Who will be honored, certainly. With being assigned more missions for Tom. Honored beyond their dreams? To quote Terri from Lord Voldemort and the Servant Problem
Honored beyond his dreams, indeed! Though if you want to get technical about it, Barty undoubtedly had had dreams of being Kissed by a Dementor. Frequently, even. And I’m sure that the three Lestranges, once escaped, had had nightmares of being sent on another raid, captured, and sent back to Azkaban. Which is what happened to two of them; only chance and her own competence (not Lord Voldemort’s protection) preserved Bella from the same fate.
He takes this opportunity to announce that the dementors will join them. Not rejoin or return. The dementors were the Ministry's so far. They will recall the banished giants. Well, 2 of them. He shall have all his devoted servants returned to him - OK, he will break Bella out of Azkaban. Does he consider anyone else as devoted? Barty already has the DADA curse on his head. He'll have an army of creatures whom all fear. What was this about? He already mentioned the dementors (who were more like free agents most of the time). Who else did he have? There was Fenrir. But no other werewolf is shown to be promoting Tom's goals. And when the DEs camp in the Forbidden Forest the spiders invade the school (and capture Hagrid). That's it.
But here in the graveyard he sounds like he actually has a plan.
Tom addresses only some DEs. And all those he mentions by name will turn out to have already been cleared. He wasn't paying them compliments, he was pointing them out to others as negative examples. In Tom's eyes, the best are those who tried to find him and failed. Next are those who died or got caught and couldn't seek him. They are followed by those who were never suspected. Worse are those who were suspected but actively denied him by claiming Imperius. And the ultimate worst are those two who chose not to come back (so far).
Crabbe and Goyle are the largest DEs. In HBP Rowle (yet unnamed) will be described as enormous. Maybe he too was in Azkaban. Nott appears to be a geriatric DE.
Now I'm wondering if even after the graveyard reunion the DEs were out about their participation to those DEs they didn't know well before. Of the DEs that participated in the Ministry battle in OOTP 6 were known Azkaban veterans, 5 were Imperius claimants. Jugson was the only new name. Were the Imperius guys chosen by Lucius because he had interacted with them in the past? Did they volunteer in attempt to remedy their position with Tom? Or did he pick them because now that Tom outed them he certainly knew them too? Was Jugson another of the ex-prisoners? OTOH the Carrows are not among those Tom was displeased enough with to mention. Two sadistic and not very smart siblings that just blended in wizarding society and were never suspected? Goyle didn't participate in the Ministry raid. Because Lucius has standards? In fact, this is Goyle Sr's last appearance in canon. Perhaps he found the winning formula - be so incompetent nobody would want him to do stuff.
The one too cowardly to return will be punished, the one who left forever will be killed. Before OOTP many readers took this threat to mean Severus couldn't return to spying on Tom, that his exposure by Igor and Albus' subsequent defense made it impossible. As it turned out, he managed to dodge that bullet.
Of course this raises the question of Ludo - was he a DE or not? Since he isn't one of those reprimanded for not showing up then if he was a DE he must have been in the circle (rather than dodging goblins somewhere). But he wasn't mentioned as one who denied his master either, and he clearly denies any connection to Tom in his sentencing. Well so did Barty. So the only way Ludo could have been a DE was if like Barty he played an important role in Tom's return. For instance by putting up the Triwizard Tournament. Oh well, back to square one on the question of Ludo.
Lucius asks for more exposition. He knows this is a way to distract his master with something he enjoys. That Lucius dares to ask, that he can speak on his own without being Cruciated, together with Tom directing the most detailed criticism to him earlier suggests he is the highest ranking DE of those present. But by the time he was out of school there were already not only Tom's original school friends but also enough of the next generation to have the early stages of Tom's campaign underway for a couple of years already. When did Lucius rise to his position? How did he surpass those of higher levels of cruelty? Did he manage to gain a position that put him mostly outside most of the action by taking the role of financial backer or recruiter? Or perhaps he only rose to the higher status at the very tail end of the war, when most top people (such as Dolohov who was around from day 1 and stood out both in cruelty and fighting ability) got arrested or killed?
In any case, Tom obliges. He seems eager to share his story. What drama! Maybe he should write his own book? He could easily outdo Rita Skeeter.
Of Lily's blood protection: "this is old magic. I should have remembered it" - not "I should have figured it out" - doesn't this sound like something that was known, based on experience, even if a very rare occurrence? Tom is confident he got it right this time around - he makes a point of touching Harry in front of the crowd of DEs, without having tried in private beforehand. "Pain beyond pain, my friends" - poor Tommy. My heart bleeds for him. But he was top immortality researcher and one or more of his multiple experiments must have worked. The DEs were aware his goal was to conquer death. How many of them joined in hope that once his work was perfected he might share his achievement with them? (No, he never planned to do so. He didn't need competition.)
If he wanted a DE to find him, why hide in Albania? How were any of them supposed to locate him? Why not go to, say, Bella's home? I guess he didn't trust any of them? Perhaps he knew why? Possessing animals shortened their lives. I doubt Quirrell would have lasted much longer than he did regardless of Harry. Perhaps Tom delayed physically possessing him because he doubted he'd survive long enough? Quirrell was foolish and gullible - very similar to Quirrellmort's description of his former self. He was easy to bend to Tom's will. Was Quirrell put under some kind of magical compulsion or was he convinced of Tom's arguments for the superiority of power over anything else?
Tom isn't aware of events that took place between Quirrell's death and Peter's arrival. It seems Peter didn't bother to tell him about COS events. I suppose he didn't expect that story to go down well. But he did tell Tom how rats perceived him. Tom likes such compliments, no matter how lowly the source. Why did Peter enter the inn in human form? Rats can find food rather easily. Perhaps he recognized Bertha and expected capturing her to earn him points? Tom says Peter displayed unexpected presence of mind - ahem, he's the one who faked his death most convincingly in front of many witnesses! I think Tom fears Peter might acquire a following among the DEs and is quick to squash it.
How did Tom interrogate Bertha? Was he already in Babymort form? Did he possess her for a while and 'read' her mind from the inside? He was able to punish Quirrell, both in vapor form and while possessing him. Neither required a wand.
Tom implies the creation of BabyMort was his own invention. Did all previous makers of Horcruxes end up as ghost-like beings? Or did Tom fare worse than his predecessors because he was killed by his own AK, shortly after 2 AKs that tore his soul even further than it already was? Anyway, it seems BabyMort was formed shortly before they left Albania, so probably after Bertha was dead. (Though if Nagini was Horcruxified with her death than Babymort must have been created while she was still alive.) Tom sounds like returning to his body was a temporary measure before pursuing a Philosophers' Stone or the equivalent. Perhaps he was hoping to avoid being reduced to vapor again. However we never see him doing anything of the like. Unless it was happening during HBP, when Harry had no Voldievisions.
His revival was due to an old piece of Dark Magic. So it was done before? I'm getting confused. Does this mean previous Horcrux makers made themselves new bodies without going through a baby stage? But only Harry's Gary Stu blood could make Tom more powerful than before. Tom knows about the protection at 4PD (a year before Albus told Harry about it)? was that something Peter picked up at some point - spying on Dumbles in rat form? Or was this information Albus arranged for Quirrell to find out? Or did Voldie attempt to invade 4PD in vapor form?
Dumbledore invoked an ancient magic, to ensure the boy's protection as long as he is in his relations' care. Not even I can touch him there ...
This does sound like he tried. Maybe during the weeks just before Harry's 11th birthday? Anyway, Tom believes the protection is localized, if he even considered kidnapping Harry from the QWC. So instead he decided to have his servant bring Harry to him as Triwizard Champion. And didn't consider any of the many other options to have Harry sent to him from Hogwarts. Ah! Finally Tom can Cruciate Harry properly! What satisfaction he must have felt. And the DEs laugh. Because at last it isn't one of them who is suffering.
Now that Tom has shown he can touch Harry and cast spells on him, he is confident enough to face him in a public duel. Peter will return him his wand. And once he is dead he will be fed to Nagini as promised.
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no subject
Date: 2011-08-20 02:03 pm (UTC)There were some lines in the first two books that suggested that whatever Voldemort had done was something entirely unknown.
It makes the story so much better, too, because it would mean that Voldemort's experiments had been partially successful, but that he wasn't *quite* there yet, or he wouldn't have been reduced to a helpless vapor for a decade or so. Which also would suggest that there's a narrow window of vulnerability after Voldemort gets back, before he works out what went wrong and *fixes* it, becoming *truly* immortal....
It could've been great. Horcruxes could still have been part of it; it's just that they'd've had to work out the concept from scratch. It would also have made the Philosopher's Stone bit more sensible: naturally Voldemort would be cobbling together multiple things he could use to strengthen himself, because he wouldn't be entirely sure what would work, and so on.
I suppose it's possible that JKR had this in mind at first, but then gave up on it in HBP when she finally got around to resolving some of the major issues in the series, and when she was running out of creativity.
*I'm excluding the Elixir of Life from known ways to become immortal, because while that helps with aging, it doesn't protect you from attacks or other injuries. Naturally Voldemort would want better than that.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-20 05:31 pm (UTC)I think this could have been fixed by including some comment about how Voldemort was one of the only wizards who had ever successfully made a horcrux. It could be that horcruxes were known about in theory in the WW, but very few wizards, if any, had ever succeeded in actually making one. This seems logical to me since it doesn't seem that there were all that many other semi-immortal dark lords with horcruxes running around.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-20 05:37 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2011-08-20 07:19 pm (UTC)oh, that's a good point. But we could still be talking about only a handful of individuals who successfully made a horcrux in the past, maybe the distant past.
My guess is that if horcrux making was more common than that then at least one person would have hidden his well enough to prevent its destruction.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-20 09:41 pm (UTC)If there was some process to making one that included killing somebody but also some incantation or ritual I'd accept it.
But as JKR "explained" I can't understand why every Auror, every DE and anybody who killed is doesn't have X number of Horcruxes.
Also, just how do you decide which object will become your Horcruxe? Again, if there was a ritual with, for example, placing the object in magical circle or on top on your soon to be murder victim it would make sense.
But it's totally unexplained. From what we see is look like Voldy just had to have the object and think about it and ta-da Horcruxe!
Which begs the question, how could Voldy not know that Harry is a Horcruxe?
Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 05:15 am (UTC)Murder ALWAYS splits the soul, fine. The HARD part is persuading the split fragment not to huddle up close to the rest of the soul, hoping to be resorbed (by the murderer's repentance).
So that's what the Horcrux ritual is designed to do: drive the soul-fragment into permanent exile, into a specific housing. Against the soul's own innate desire to be healed. To be whole.
It's a gruesome ritual, and no one sane would do it (much less do it 6 times), and it's all done IN ADVANCE. Which means, for us, off camera.
The Horcrux-creating ritual primes an object so it calls irresistably to a newly-severed soul-fragment, pulling it away from the killer, against its own pull to be reunited.
So Tom was carrying a sanctified object with him that night.
Now, James's death didn't create a Horcrux. So, there's some final switch to flick to say "this death, do it!" to the sanctified object, to activate its pull. Which may be wandless, and must be non-verbal (since Tom didn't say anything between Lily's death, which didn't make a Horcrux, and the AK meant-for-Harry-but-hitting-Tom, which did).
Actually, the fact that one can customize the process to use a specific, significant death.... Well. I've been rereading Mary Renault, The King Must Die and The Bull from the Sea, and reflecting on her view of death magic.
If one were a warrior i battle, being able to choose the King's death rather than a lesser one to power some spell might be... weighty.
There may be a whole set of Dark enchantments that ramp up in power if one chooses a specific, important death to activate them. (Amongst all those piddly ones.)
As to how it went wrong, why the soul-fragment went astray .... Dumbledore (our only resident expert in Death Magic, however we must mistrust anything he has to say), told us, ".. a fragment of Voldemort's soul was blasted apart from the whole, and latched itself onto the only living soul left in that collapsing building."
From Tom's point of view, two things went wrong with the Horcrux-creating ritual that night. One, Lily's voluntary sacrifice interfered and protected her son. Two, that protection meant Tom's final AK reflected back and killed himself. Not quite in Tom's plans for the day.
However, Lily was not a Dark Arts expert; she had never been trained in how to use her own death to create either an explict shield for her child (as Albus, lacking her ignorance, told us he was able to do for Harry post facto) or to curse her enemy.
She died, a voluntary sacrifice, screaming something mentally like, "NO! Stop it!"
And she did.
Tom was trying to do TWO things at thzt moment--to kill her son, and to drive the soul-fragment created by Harry's death into the pre-prepared object.
Tom succeeded in neither, thanks to Lily's death-magic.
He killed himself.
And the soul-fragment knocked off by that successful AK did what soul-fragments ALWAYS do--sought to nestle close to the killer's soul, even if the fragment couldn't yet (or ever, in Tom's case) reunite with the rest.
Only, that soul was gone.
But so too was the pull to the designated Horcrux-object. So what was left, but for it to latch onto the one living soul present?
In which case Tom's soul-fragment, though it created the scar, never resided in it physically. The fragment is butted up next to Harry's own soul, metaphysically, trying earnestly to meld with it.
It thinks, to rejoin.
To answer your last question: Tom apparently never realized that he'd successfully housed a soul-fragment that night. We know that, because if he truly thought a seven-part soul would be strongest, he'd never have split off an eighth piece to make Nagini a Horcrux. He wouldn't have deliberately split off one piece too many--more than the optimum.
Now, if making each Horcrux altered his appearance, how could he not have noticed? Except, between the Sixth Horcrux, the Horcrux of Power (Harry), and the Extra One, the one that diminished his power (Nagini), he died and was reborn into a new body. And must have attributed any unanticipated phyaical degradation to that.
Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 05:32 am (UTC)Also, Harry's 'dying' thoughts were of Voldemort, the panting Bellatrix and Ginny's kisses. A very different mental state than the one in which Lily died. Do you believe he provided any protection to anyone with his not-quite death?
I'm still not convinced Harry was the only living soul in the building. What became of the cat? (And assorted spiders, insects etc.) Just imagine the possibilities of a CatCrux.
Nor do we have any idea what Tom thought caused the mental connection between him and Harry.
Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 06:39 am (UTC)If that were true, it would be enough that Harry was in the room when the horcrux-bit was ripped off, and Lily's sacrifice would only have had to protect Harry, not (directly) interfere with the process of making a horcrux.
Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 10:12 am (UTC)Neat, claen, simple.
Though in that case, we need to determine what the radius is, or Lily'd been made into a Horcrux by James's death....
Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 01:47 pm (UTC)But yeah, there would still have to be a certain radius, or something, to define being "alone."
It would also require some kind of specification of what living beings count, because as Oryx pointed out, there were no doubt spiders and insects in the house. I know that at least some traditions say that animals don't have souls, but... yeah.
Perhaps snakes "count" for this, in the Potterverse, given the Nagini-horcrux (maybe she was an accident) and Parseltongue.
Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 05:34 pm (UTC)Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 08:21 pm (UTC)Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 02:55 pm (UTC)Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 03:12 pm (UTC)Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 04:47 pm (UTC)Re: Building Workable Horcruxes
Date: 2011-08-21 11:39 pm (UTC)But to me the problem is, JKR never said / wrote anything similar. Your idea about how the workable Horcruxes could be made is good and I like it's but it's not cannon.
My main problem is that a lot of times (Horcruxes, babymort...) JKR never explains how things work. It's just sloppy writing on her part.
She just gives some line about it ("Of the Horcrux, wickedest of magical inventions, we shall not speak nor give direction–" or "I wanted to write about how the babymort was created but I was told it was too disturbing") and that's it.
It's like she's invoking that trope; about how nothing could be scarier then things we imagine for yourself.
Babymort is a wonderful example. She told us nothing about it but the fan theories are high octane nightmare fuel.
I'm trying to say that I wish she gave us more info on things, answered the things that are left unsaid (Ludo, Stan Shunpike,..) and did something about the plot holes.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-20 10:27 pm (UTC)What kills me is how easy it would have been to make it so much more convincing. As you suggest: if Tom had invented the whole thing from scratch that would have provided a number of advantages:
- Tom would have come across as really one hell of a wizard (and consequently a dangerous one)
- Dumbledore wouldn't have been an idiot for not cottoning onto the thing much sooner, let alone for failing to tell Harry-the-future-Horcrux-terminator about how to find and destroy them
- Harry wouldn't need to be an idiot for never asking how to find and destroy them. Instead he could have asked and dumbles could have told him he had no idea
- the memory would have been crucial to know what Tom had done in order to turn himself immortal - it would have been the only source availabe because there wouldn't have been any books about Horcruxes (and we would have been spared the inanity of Hermione just accioing them after plowing through the librabry for years on end instead of for example accioing "book on underwater breathing" in GoF)
-The Trio would have have really something to do during DH: tracing back Tom's steps, putting themselves in his shoes, finding something out instead of "tenting"
no subject
Date: 2011-08-21 07:30 am (UTC)It doesn't seem unreasonable to assume that young Tom would have come in contact with a variety of fairy tales, folktales, and myths growing up in a muggle orphanage. He probably found books much more interesting than people (when he couldn't get away with torture) and might even have deliberately looked to them for inspiration in how to use his growing powers. It would also take Dumbledore a long to realize what Tom's source of inspiration was, since he would never have seen Tom perusing the *clearly* more interesting wizarding tales.
Except, quite frankly, if it came to a showdown between the moldy-hearted warlock and Koschei the Deathless in magical ability, Koschei would kick Moldy-heart's butt six way to Sunday any day of the week, which young!Tom would have recognized within 2 seconds of coming in contact with Beedle's drivel.
Add in another, known problem with what Koschei and Moldy-heart were said to have done: say, the soul became unstable if one succeeded in splitting it in the first place. The more pieces it was split into the more insane the original personality became. The few horrific attempts to experiment with this in the past, and numerological and alchemical studies all seemed to agree that beyond 3 or 5 pieces the personality would become completely unsustainable, and what remained of the original soul was so insubstantial that even a dementor wouldn't feed on it.
From here, most of Rowling's hypothetical themes and plot holes fill in nicely. Dumbledore's lecture on the importance of fairy tales and house elves, etc. becomes of necessity a condemnation of so-called 'tolerant' members of wizarding society who still dismiss and condescend to muggles and their culture. Dumbly needed to know that Tom was considering 7 pieces because no one had bothered to try such an impossible calculation. Tom's inability to feel his Horcruces was actually a safety mechanism: a major reason previous wizards had gone insane was the *awareness* of the shredding and dissembling of their soul - like eternal Chinese water torture.
Heck, even Harry "The Chosen One" Potter makes more sense in this narrative if we assume Tom succeeded perfectly- at least, in achieving immortality. The thing is that even if Tom managed to completely negate every hostile spell or action or general harm that might approach his physical form, his chosen method still required that he be able to ritualistically harm *himself,* especially after he forced the creation of a seventh horcrux as part of his return to flesh. After the ceremony in the graveyard, Harry and Voldy share soul, blood, and magic through their twinned wands. It could easily be the case that the necessary loopholes in his protection could no longer distinguish Harry and their caster. Thus, like the most tragic of all tragic characters, Voldy would be responsible for his own downfall through the very act of trying to prevent it, and the bleeping prophecy finally makes sense. (The insanity would also be a part of this downfall, assuming he was perfectly coherent right up to the point where he lost track of how many Horcruces he actually had and forced the creation of the last, past what his calculations indicated was safe.)
There are so many ways Rowling's story could have -worked- with just a bit of tweaking... I think that's one of the things that keeps drawing back even the fans who were disappointed with the final project. At least, it keeps me coming back.
no subject
Date: 2011-08-22 10:54 pm (UTC)Since Rowling was already having trouble bringing Harry to the finish line she just had Albus claiming Tom was no longer able to create more Horcruxes. And it seemed Tom knew that too - he did not make any more when he knew the diary was lost, and when he learned the cup was stolen he checked on the others he had made and protected Nagini, but did not even attempt to make a new Horcrux. But if Tom was the first to make more than one how does he know he can't make more? And how does Albus know? We are supposed to just accept it, despite never being given Albus' reasoning. Of course it can be fanwanked, but it should have been explained.