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deathtocapslock* First of all, sorry this is so late, I'm afraid I've been a bit busy preparing to go back to university.
* This is the chapter in which Hermione officially crosses the line from “occasionally strident and self-righteous but on the whole likeable and sympathetic character” to “dangerous sociopath”.
* “‘A gorgeous centaur...’ sighed Parvati.” I must say that, given the, erm, associations of centaurs in classical mythology, this sort of thing rather creeps me out. Is JKR aware of the implications of what she’s writing? Or did she just throw it in without bothering to think it through?
* Hermione’s dropping dark hints about what Umbridge is going to do, revealing the plot like any good author avatar would.
* So Harry can remember the names of centaurs he met once four years ago, but in DH he won’t be able to remember a face from a picture from one chapter to the next. *coughplotconveniencecough*
* Wow, centaurs sure are arrogant and condescending people. No wonder Dumbledore felt enough of an affinity with Firenze to hire him as a teacher. He recognises a kindred spirit when he sees one.
* If I were JKR, I’d be hesitant to dignify the wizarding conflicts with the term “war”. They’re more like gang wars than what most people would think of as warfare. Which is why epic fantasy doesn’t really mix with a “secret magical people in this world” plot. Epic fantasy generally centres around mighty empires, big wars and bloody battles, but these things are generally quite noticeable, and any wizards fighting in large-scale conflicts would be found out pretty quickly. So the wizarding war pretty much has to be low-key to make it plausible that Muggles wouldn’t know about it, and the end result is that we get a lot of build-up and very little payoff.
* Firenze spends the whole lesson teaching them something which he doesn’t expect them to do anyway, and which is anyway a bit uncertain and useless. So he’s about as good as the average Hogwarts teacher, then.
* “Indeed, Harry sometimes wondered how Umbridge was going to react when all the members of the DA received ‘Outstanding’ in their Defence Against the Dark Arts OWLs.” Only kidding, Harry will be the only one to get an “Outstanding” mark, because he’sa Mary Sue just the most awesome DADA student ever.
* Although everybody always goes on about how smart Hermione is, and from what we see of her she doesn’t seem noticeably worse in DADA than she does in other subjects, so if she only got an “E” in her Defence OWL, that’s probably because Harry’s not a very good teacher... :p
* Seamus’ Patronus “was definitely something hairy”. *mind goes into the gutter*
* Hermione’s Patronus is an otter, even though she’s one of the least otter-like people in the series. On a Doylist level, this is probably because JKR’s favourite animal is the otter, so her author avatar will have one as her Patronus, obviously. On a Watsonian level, perhaps Patronuses don’t represent what your personality is like, but what you need to guard you and keep you out of trouble. So Hermione’s is an otter because she needs fun-loving people around her to stop her getting too serious about everything, Ron’s is a weasel because he needs smart people to compensate for his mental inadequacy, and Harry’s is a stag because he needs a proper father-figure to help him, not an abusive one like Uncle Vernon or a scheming and manipulative one like Dumbledore. Patronuses which change when somebody falls in love show that their caster needs to be loved by their intended in order to feel happy and secure again.
* Dobby appears, wearing “his usual eight woollen hats”. I quite like the suggestion that it was this sight that made Hermione drop her SPEW activities, as she saw that her hats were all going to this one elf, and that they were therefore pretty useless from a freeing people standpoint. (Can anybody remember if SPEW is brought up again in this book?)
* Umbridge is here! I bet it’s times like this that the DA wish they had a second, secret entrance from the ROR. That way they could slip away while Umbridge and her cronies sat uselessly in front of the main entrance.
* Draco’s concealed “beneath an ugly dragon-shaped vase”, to match his ugly and monstrous soul.
* Umbridge has “an indecent excitement in her voice”. I wonder if this is how Hermione would sound to those on the receiving end of her little schemes.
* When I first read this scene, I didn’t really mind the “Sneak” curse, because I just sort of assumed that Madam Pomfrey managed to find a way of removing them after a couple of weeks. Then we found out that she still had the scars years later and... yikes.
* Not only is that extremely vindictive, but it doesn’t actually help the DA in any way. It didn’t stop them being betrayed in the first place, and it didn’t alert them to the fact that Umbridge was coming to get them. If this had been a one-off incident and the curse hadn’t been permanent, I’d be inclined to put it down to youthful lack of thought, but when you compare it to some of Hermione’s other actions (her treatment of Rita Skeeter, or sending those canaries after Ron), it seems like a rather worrying pattern is starting to emerge...
* Minerva gets all self-righteous about Willy Widdershins being let off. I wonder whether she feels the same about Mundungus Fletcher, or whether petty crooks are OK just as long as they’re on her side.
* Also, she’s not above a bit of petty corruption herself, since she lets Gryffindor Quidditch players off homework when a match is coming up.
* So Kingsley memory-wipes Marietta to stop her telling. You know, this is exactly the sort of mentality that leads DEs to Imperius people and get them to do their bidding: not caring about your victims’ autonomy, just violating their minds when it’s convenient to do so.
* Also, if they are going to mind-wipe Marietta, why not do it to Percy, Fudge and Umbridge too? That would get them out of trouble entirely.
* And really guys, Umbridge has a list of DA members and access to Veritaserum. Obliviating one witness shouldn’t be enough.
* I’m surprised Umbridge thought she could get away with manhandling students like that in front of Dumbledore. I mean, that man’s just so concerned about his students’ welfare.
* Hermione left the membership list pinned to the ROR wall. Well done, Hermione. Not that any DA members will point out this idiocy to her. Nor will they point out the fact that her defensive jinx was (a) vindictive and useless, and (b) not told about to them when they joined up. Maybe they’re all worried she’ll brand the word “COMPLAINER” across their forehead if they speak up.
* Dumbledore taking the rap is all very noble and everything, but I don’t see how it’s meant to help. Fudge can still charge the pupils with attending, even if they didn’t organise it, and now Dumbledore’s ensured that he’s going to be on the run and unable to give them any help.
* Face-scarring aside, I actually quite liked this chapter. It was quite well-paced, and I never really felt like I was wading through pages of filler. It will be interesting to see if the other chapters will be more like this now the book’s reaching its climax, or whether the quality will slip back down again.
* This is the chapter in which Hermione officially crosses the line from “occasionally strident and self-righteous but on the whole likeable and sympathetic character” to “dangerous sociopath”.
* “‘A gorgeous centaur...’ sighed Parvati.” I must say that, given the, erm, associations of centaurs in classical mythology, this sort of thing rather creeps me out. Is JKR aware of the implications of what she’s writing? Or did she just throw it in without bothering to think it through?
* Hermione’s dropping dark hints about what Umbridge is going to do, revealing the plot like any good author avatar would.
* So Harry can remember the names of centaurs he met once four years ago, but in DH he won’t be able to remember a face from a picture from one chapter to the next. *coughplotconveniencecough*
* Wow, centaurs sure are arrogant and condescending people. No wonder Dumbledore felt enough of an affinity with Firenze to hire him as a teacher. He recognises a kindred spirit when he sees one.
* If I were JKR, I’d be hesitant to dignify the wizarding conflicts with the term “war”. They’re more like gang wars than what most people would think of as warfare. Which is why epic fantasy doesn’t really mix with a “secret magical people in this world” plot. Epic fantasy generally centres around mighty empires, big wars and bloody battles, but these things are generally quite noticeable, and any wizards fighting in large-scale conflicts would be found out pretty quickly. So the wizarding war pretty much has to be low-key to make it plausible that Muggles wouldn’t know about it, and the end result is that we get a lot of build-up and very little payoff.
* Firenze spends the whole lesson teaching them something which he doesn’t expect them to do anyway, and which is anyway a bit uncertain and useless. So he’s about as good as the average Hogwarts teacher, then.
* “Indeed, Harry sometimes wondered how Umbridge was going to react when all the members of the DA received ‘Outstanding’ in their Defence Against the Dark Arts OWLs.” Only kidding, Harry will be the only one to get an “Outstanding” mark, because he’s
* Although everybody always goes on about how smart Hermione is, and from what we see of her she doesn’t seem noticeably worse in DADA than she does in other subjects, so if she only got an “E” in her Defence OWL, that’s probably because Harry’s not a very good teacher... :p
* Seamus’ Patronus “was definitely something hairy”. *mind goes into the gutter*
* Hermione’s Patronus is an otter, even though she’s one of the least otter-like people in the series. On a Doylist level, this is probably because JKR’s favourite animal is the otter, so her author avatar will have one as her Patronus, obviously. On a Watsonian level, perhaps Patronuses don’t represent what your personality is like, but what you need to guard you and keep you out of trouble. So Hermione’s is an otter because she needs fun-loving people around her to stop her getting too serious about everything, Ron’s is a weasel because he needs smart people to compensate for his mental inadequacy, and Harry’s is a stag because he needs a proper father-figure to help him, not an abusive one like Uncle Vernon or a scheming and manipulative one like Dumbledore. Patronuses which change when somebody falls in love show that their caster needs to be loved by their intended in order to feel happy and secure again.
* Dobby appears, wearing “his usual eight woollen hats”. I quite like the suggestion that it was this sight that made Hermione drop her SPEW activities, as she saw that her hats were all going to this one elf, and that they were therefore pretty useless from a freeing people standpoint. (Can anybody remember if SPEW is brought up again in this book?)
* Umbridge is here! I bet it’s times like this that the DA wish they had a second, secret entrance from the ROR. That way they could slip away while Umbridge and her cronies sat uselessly in front of the main entrance.
* Draco’s concealed “beneath an ugly dragon-shaped vase”, to match his ugly and monstrous soul.
* Umbridge has “an indecent excitement in her voice”. I wonder if this is how Hermione would sound to those on the receiving end of her little schemes.
* When I first read this scene, I didn’t really mind the “Sneak” curse, because I just sort of assumed that Madam Pomfrey managed to find a way of removing them after a couple of weeks. Then we found out that she still had the scars years later and... yikes.
* Not only is that extremely vindictive, but it doesn’t actually help the DA in any way. It didn’t stop them being betrayed in the first place, and it didn’t alert them to the fact that Umbridge was coming to get them. If this had been a one-off incident and the curse hadn’t been permanent, I’d be inclined to put it down to youthful lack of thought, but when you compare it to some of Hermione’s other actions (her treatment of Rita Skeeter, or sending those canaries after Ron), it seems like a rather worrying pattern is starting to emerge...
* Minerva gets all self-righteous about Willy Widdershins being let off. I wonder whether she feels the same about Mundungus Fletcher, or whether petty crooks are OK just as long as they’re on her side.
* Also, she’s not above a bit of petty corruption herself, since she lets Gryffindor Quidditch players off homework when a match is coming up.
* So Kingsley memory-wipes Marietta to stop her telling. You know, this is exactly the sort of mentality that leads DEs to Imperius people and get them to do their bidding: not caring about your victims’ autonomy, just violating their minds when it’s convenient to do so.
* Also, if they are going to mind-wipe Marietta, why not do it to Percy, Fudge and Umbridge too? That would get them out of trouble entirely.
* And really guys, Umbridge has a list of DA members and access to Veritaserum. Obliviating one witness shouldn’t be enough.
* I’m surprised Umbridge thought she could get away with manhandling students like that in front of Dumbledore. I mean, that man’s just so concerned about his students’ welfare.
* Hermione left the membership list pinned to the ROR wall. Well done, Hermione. Not that any DA members will point out this idiocy to her. Nor will they point out the fact that her defensive jinx was (a) vindictive and useless, and (b) not told about to them when they joined up. Maybe they’re all worried she’ll brand the word “COMPLAINER” across their forehead if they speak up.
* Dumbledore taking the rap is all very noble and everything, but I don’t see how it’s meant to help. Fudge can still charge the pupils with attending, even if they didn’t organise it, and now Dumbledore’s ensured that he’s going to be on the run and unable to give them any help.
* Face-scarring aside, I actually quite liked this chapter. It was quite well-paced, and I never really felt like I was wading through pages of filler. It will be interesting to see if the other chapters will be more like this now the book’s reaching its climax, or whether the quality will slip back down again.
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Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-13 01:27 am (UTC)Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-13 02:51 am (UTC)Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-13 02:54 am (UTC)Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-13 03:15 am (UTC)Secondly, as a thought exercise, imagine that Marietta had betrayed Harry - okay, no imagination required, she *did* - and Hermione hadn't saved him. Harry gets tortured, maybe tossed into the clink - Umbridge/Fudge continue to be in control if we let Marietta have her way, remember - and the wizarding world is doomed.
Just a thought exercise, but useful.
Finally -
... this does not justify their crimes.
This is where my ignorance of the real world betrays me. Are soldiers in war given leeway in such things? Certainly they do from one end of the scale - they're at liberty to kill. So if Harry and Hermione (and Ron) had killed (something Rowling artificially prevented (other than - was it Marion who pointed it out - killing DEs in the Privet Drive exodus)), that would have been excusable, right?
But you want them burnt at the stake for ... right, two seconds of Cruciatus. Hmmpf. Sorry, no.
So that's Harry off the Oryx hook. As for Hermione, you listed her 'crimes' as 'assailant, kidnapper, blackmailer'. Who did she 'assail', by the way? Ron? Draco? *snort*. The 'kidnap' and 'blackmail' both apply to Rita, yes? That's 'kidnap' as in 'catch and then let go'. And 'blackmail' as in 'for absolutely no personal nor monetary gain'.
Pretty tame 'crimes'!
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-13 03:36 am (UTC)Secondly, as a thought exercise, imagine that Marietta had betrayed Harry - okay, no imagination required, she *did* - and Hermione hadn't saved him. Harry gets tortured, maybe tossed into the clink - Umbridge/Fudge continue to be in control if we let Marietta have her way, remember - and the wizarding world is doomed.
Not true. All the wizarding world needs from Harry is his death (or intent to do so). The only thing that would have doomed the wizarding world would have been if Umbridge et al had prevented anyone (including Voldemort) from killing Harry. I doubt she is capable of doing that.
So let's say Harry is arrested. Albus stays at the school, Umbridge is gone by the end of the year. Horcrux hunt is on. Let's say Albus curses himself and arranges his death by Severus as in canon. Let's say his Horcrux hunting isn't any better than in canon. Without Harry he makes a different plan for the continuation of the Horcrux hunt after his inevitable death. Heck, since he can't rely on Harry maybe he sees no reason to rely on just one person and his close friends.
Are soldiers in war given leeway in such things?
See Geneva Conventions.
There are many things soldiers are not supposed to do. Unfortunately often they get away with them as long as those actions aren't found out. But if war crimes are publicized and enough noise is made they end up standing trial. Torture is high on the list these days.
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-13 03:47 am (UTC)imagine that Marietta had betrayed Harry - okay, no imagination required, she *did* - and Hermione hadn't saved him.
As you say, no imagination required; she *didn't* save him.
Worst case scenario that I see, if Marietta had talked more before she arrived at Dumbledore's office where her memories could be tampered with? Dumbledore might have been forced to spirit Harry away from Fudge and co., instead of just leaving by himself. Maybe Dumbledore would have had to stop being headmaster, after defying Fudge like that, but that's no worse for him/the school than what happened in canon. If Dumbledore is capable of evading capture for months, he should be able to keep Harry safe from capture for the same amount of time.
Why on earth would Dumbledore sit back and let Harry be tortured or locked up?
(Okay, it *is* Dumbledore, but it's canon that he helped Harry out in this case, so I think he would have helped him even if silencing Marietta hadn't worked.)
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-13 09:07 am (UTC)dystopiautopia! - has appropriately punished her.), it's still blackmail.Neither does it matter if you kidnap someone and then let them go.
If you commit a crime and your defense is 'Well, I could have done worse!' or 'But they STARTED it!', you're pretty much at the kindergarten court.
Just a thought exercise, but useful.
Well, as a demonstration of how far you're prepared to go to defend an argument, it's definitely useful!
As an extrapolation of potential events if Hermione hadn't 'saved' Harry (how did she save him, exactly? Thanks to her leaving all the names up, she harmed him almost as much as Marietta, I'd say), I wouldn't say it's useful.
It's about as far off the scale of realism as 'Imagine Hermione didn't hex Marietta, and Marietta learnt to appreciate the benefits of a fascist worldview, and everyone loved Hermione and Harry and allowed them to rule forever, amen, and the world was sunshine and lollipops!' (Like the epilogue, maybe?)
But you want them burnt at the stake for ... right, two seconds of Cruciatus.
No-one's suggesting 'burning at the stake' (and what's with the emotive comparisons? You get irritated with exaggeration from people saying things like 'Hermione's a sociopath', but you're using their exact same tactic.)
How can you not see there's something creepy about a book where the hero tortures someone (for spitting, of all things!), what's known is his world as an 'unforgiveable', for crying out loud (in comparison, you have the guy presented as morally weak and being fascinated by the Dark Arts is having to be forced to use the exact same curse. WTF?) and then is complimented for his gallantry?
And if you torture someone, the length of the torture doesn't affect your punishment. Why not just ask rape and torture victims to guesstimate the length of time they were hurt for, and then make an equation for how long the torturer should be punished. Anything under five minutes, and it's really a community service matter?
Do you not feel sorry for Hermione when Bellatrix has her?
I mean, geez, it probably wasn't long, and Bellatrix really believes she's helping rid the world of a danger - it's not like she's benefitting financially from all of this!
Other considerations
Date: 2011-10-13 08:35 pm (UTC)But actually, madderbrad's fantasies aside, what we were TOLD was to be the punishment for joining an unauthorized organization was expulsion.
Which would not have Marietta's friend Cho or the other sixth and seventh year students that much--Hogwarts attendance is optional by then, c.f. the Twins. Mostly the damage would be to their future job prospects. And face it, anyone participating in a seditious anti-Ministry group is demonstrating their lack of concern for such considerations. (Indeed, getting the group broken up before they do anything Azkaban-worthy, if it's moving in that direction, might have saved Cho from worse.)
Harry would, of course, have gone to live with Sirius--as he had in fact already thought about doing. And Sirius could have taught Harry Occlumency, plus all the Marauder's fighting hexes.
The ones really harmed would have been... Hermione. And the other Muggleborns 5th year and younger, who would have been expelled, OWL-less, and with no WW connections to assist them.
Re: Other considerations
Date: 2011-10-13 09:17 pm (UTC)Hermione, Justin, Dean and the Creevey boys. The ones who would have been most affected by the expulsion of the entire DA.
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-13 03:37 pm (UTC)Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-14 05:02 am (UTC)Particularly some of the people here, who have stretched canon considerably in trying to let Marietta off the hook.
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-14 03:27 pm (UTC)So - did Marietta betray her peers? Yes, she did. Was she therefore evil and on Voldemort's side? No. She was on her MOTHER'S side, and her mother was aligned with the government. We, as readers, are privy to information that Marietta does not have in the text. It's not evil or wrong to be a "lawful" character and to love your mother!
And, in the real world, soldiers are not supposed to commit war crimes even in the heat of battle. We have laws against this, as Oryx has said. This is why some American soldiers were court-martialed and jailed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisoner_abuse
I hate to bring it up again, but I have ALWAYS said that Severus owed Hermione an apology for the "teeth" remark. It was in character for him, (unlike the toad incident), and also way out of line. What Hermione does here is similarly cruel and out of line. When characters - even beloved characters - are wrong, they are wrong. You can't excuse it or wish it away by arguing that Rowling is a bad writer.
My two cents.
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-14 07:14 pm (UTC)Psychopathy is a (currently unofficial) personality disorder, and someone is diagnosed as having a personality disorder if hir personality is outside the range of what's considered normal. But the parameters of "normalcy" are quite subjective, and so mental health practitioners must always keep in mind the cultural context of their patients when making a diagnosis.
According to my real-life, modern, Western standards, I do, indeed, find Hermione to be rather psychopathic. But Hermione doesn't live in my world. She lives in the fictional Potterverse. And, within the context of the Potterverse, her behavior, while possibly still wrong, is not especially abnormal. I don't believe that her behavior is all that extreme when compared to other characters' behavior. (Similar to how Severus's teaching style is not all that extreme when compared to the other Hogwarts professors)
Therefore, I find myself asking many more questions about the morality of the Potterverse as a whole, and the mental state of its author, than about Hermione in particular.
Does that makes sense?
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-14 07:46 pm (UTC)Basically, I agree with you here. We do need to judge the characters in context, and that does go for Hermione as well as for Marietta. I do still think that, even in context, Hermione's crime was worse.
And the morality of the Potterverse as a whole is just plain awful!
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-14 08:48 pm (UTC)According to my own standards of morality, I absolutely agree. But I'm not sure if someone from an honor culture like that of the Potterverse would agree us.
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-14 10:28 pm (UTC)Interesting idea...but would that not mean that Voldemort's actions would not be so outside the norm?
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-14 11:44 pm (UTC)I think the cold-blooded murder of his family and others probably still sets him outside of the norm, even in the Potterverse.
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-15 09:12 am (UTC)Maybe. But he didn't exactly have a family. Just shared DNA. As for the others, it's hard to tell what happened and how in the first war. But then, too, he seems to have some mental issues. Is the person with less ability more guilty of his/her crimes? Or the one that doesn't have those issues and acts in cold blood?
Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-15 06:05 pm (UTC)In other words, from a mental health perspective, someone who commits cold-blooded murder often is considered to be mentally ill.
Different universes
Date: 2011-10-18 09:25 pm (UTC)Re: Marietta's real crime?
Date: 2011-10-13 08:54 am (UTC)