Pottermore implications - Mirror of Erised

[oryx_leucoryx]

From the spoilers blog, about History: Mirror of Erised:

Only after Professor Dumbledore makes key modifications to the mirror (which has been languishing in the Room of Requirement for a century or so before he brings it out and puts it to work) does it become a superb hiding place, and the final test for the impure of heart.

So if we believe Rowling, the mirror had been in the ROR for about a century and Albus took it out, apparently in 1991, when he decided to use it to keep Flamel's stone. This has several implications: First, in contrast with what Harry thinks in DH, Albus was well aware of the use of the ROR as a hiding place. So why didn't he search it for one (or more) of Tom's Horcruxes? He knew Tom had access to the school when he came to interview, the school fit the pattern Albus guessed, of using significant locations from his past as hiding places. (Does this mean Albus did not have a Horcrux-revealing charm?)

Also, if Harry was wrong about whether Albus knew about the ROHT then anything Harry 'thinks', 'believes' or 'guesses' that isn't actually supported by facts in the text is fair game. Might be right, might be wrong. Long live fanfic!

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Oh, nice! I'm really looking forward to some fun when Rowling/Pottermore gets going and she displays ignorance of her own canon. :-)

I definitely remember the impression that Dumbledore didn't know about the RoR but I'm not sure how firm that was. I guess it's not a 'hard error' but it makes the whole idea of the diadem being hidden in the school that much more wobbly.

Does this mean Albus did not have a Horcrux-revealing charm?

I'm pretty sure such a spell just doesn't exist; one was never mentioned. Of course, if Hermione had been allowed to *think* beyond the limits of Rowling's poor story she would have asked or researched about such. It's pretty obvious to do so.

But Rowling couldn't have a 'horcrux detector' spell, because it would zoom in on Harry's forehead in two seconds flat. And that just had to be a surprise. So we have all the imprecision of the horcruxes and where they were and why the guesstimate of 'seven' sufficed even though it was really eight and Riddle could have made another one or two or ten and why Harry had to be led by the nose to where they were by mental newsflashes from his own arch enemy.

I guess Rowling didn't want Hermione to find a 'horcrux detector' because it would make this weakness of the entire series too obvious.

anything Harry 'thinks', 'believes' or 'guesses' that isn't actually supported by facts in the text is fair game.

I think that's always been the case. Certainly I've used it in arguing against H/G! :-)

[oryx_leucoryx]

I definitely remember the impression that Dumbledore didn't know about the RoR but I'm not sure how firm that was.

Harry decided Albus was a model student who never had to hide anything, hence his supposed ignorance. Of course it was Albus who hinted to Harry in GOF about the existence of the ROR (as a room that gives one what one needs, not necessarily as a hiding place, but I find it hard to believe the mirror was kept in some other manifestation of the room and Albus got it from there somehow).

I'm pretty sure such a spell just doesn't exist; one was never mentioned.

I mean a spell Albus invented himself. I agree it wasn't in any of the books Hermione 'borrowed'. I also agree Albus wouldn't want the kids to know such a spell because they'd immediately find the Harrycrux. But if Albus is so brilliant wouldn't he try to invent one for his search?

I think that's always been the case.

I have seen the claim that Harry is also Rowling's stand-in, and unless proven otherwise anything he thinks reflects Rowling's intent. Well, forget it.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

No, actually, I think Harry was channeling Tom in that silly sequence with the supposition that Albus was too intent on following rules to have ever known about the Room of Hidden Things (when it was right there in the same school) and only rule breakers like Tom could have found it.

Actually it's possible that Albus really didn't know about the underlying RoR's function until he wandered in looking for the loo, but I think everyone on staff (with the *possible* exception of Filch) knows about the Room of Hidden Things. *They* probably know it as the 7th floor storage room. It's the Elves that told Harry that it does more than simply provide a place to stow things you want out of the way.

The Twins had stumbled in there once looking for a place to hide themselves, but all it gave them was a broom closet.

I also think that the troll ballet tapestry is set up to monitor who gets in and what they are looking for when they do it.
I mean, c'mon, if you were the Headmaster of that place wouldn't you want access to anything that potentially disasterous watched, and reporting back to you whenever someone went in or out?

[oryx_leucoryx]

I mean, c'mon, if you were the Headmaster of that place

A decent headmaster or Dumbles?

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

Of course we have Riddle's ridiculous arrogance and stupidity - he surely remembers mentioning seven soul fragments to Slughorn and can surely guess that he might tell someone, so why not make a load more?

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

"the final test for the impure of heart"

LOL! By that she means, "the people who actually want to go out and do something with themselves and their magical artifacts, rather than just passively trusting that their resident jerk-ass god-figure will provide!"

[oryx_leucoryx]

Nothing can be more pure than a total zero. (Pun not intended.)

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Also, if Albus knew about the ROR, including specifically about the ROHT, then why didn't he do anything to prevent the Death Eaters from entering Hogwarts through the vanishing cabinet in HBP?

[sunnyskywalker]

Peeves broke the cabinet in CoS or so, and the twins shoved Montague into it in OotP. So I think Draco actually moved it in there to work on it, which someone leaves Dumbledore off the hook. (Unless he knew where Draco put it and didn't make sure to break the cabinet permanently.) But not entirely - surely if a kid can work out that the room will make secret passages for you if you ask, Dumbledore could think of that too in the time since 1991 (or earlier, if he knew about it before but only pulled the Mirror out then)? Could the room create Portkeys, come to think of it?

[oryx_leucoryx]

I thought the house-elves moved the cabinet because after Montague's ordeal they realized it was unsafe, but since when does anyone at Hogwarts care about safety? So it has to have been Draco.

[oryx_leucoryx]

As for Dumbles, I'm sure he knew Draco was spending his time in the ROR. I don't know if he realized Draco was in the ROHT.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

A little more to the point; since clearly Tom knew about the Room of Hidden Things while he was still at school, how does Rowling square that with the Mirror having been there all along? Or do we get to play paradox and suppose that Tom saw himself as ruler of the world in it, and set out to make it so?

[oryx_leucoryx]

Well, we have been accusing Dumbles for a long time with creating Lord Voldemort... It is hard enough to understand why Tom expected nobody to find the diadem there with all the junk. The mirror only adds a bit to that complication.

So when Quirrellmort saw the mirror in the dungeon the Tom part of him recognized it?

RoHT or ROR?

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

I know I've flogged this horse elsewhere on these forums, but did Tom really find the RoHT and learn what its functions were, or did he manage to activate the RoR and then never get past his preconceptions enough to learn the room's true nature?

It's my personal head!canon that he found the RoR sometime around his search for Slytherin's Chamber of Secrets. Whether he found it before or after the Chamber I don't think makes a great deal of difference. The relevant points here would be that what he truly *desired* was to unearth secrets of the castle unknown to any other soul living or dead that resided in it. And they couldn't just be any secrets, either; not for Tom Riddle, Destined for Greatness. Whatever he found *had* to be grand enough to satisfy his all-encompassing ego, otherwise what was the point of it?

So, he was able to track down and activate the RoR, and what it showed him wasn't the immensely useful but vulgar storage closet, but some "hidden," "secret" chamber grand enough to satisfy his even his bloated ego. From there, he was never able to let go of his preconceptions and hubris enough to realize that the Room was only showing him what he wished to see. Even if he realized the room normally functioned as a storage closet (which he likely did) what of it? The entrance to Salazar's Chamber was in the girl's washroom, it wasn't like he didn't have precedent. The Room itself would probably provide him with him 'evidence' implying it was a different structure/dimension/what-have-you entirely since that was what he so desperately wanted to believe he'd found.

It was in this particular *manifestation* of the Room that Tom left his diadem. Except, that wasn't the Room's true form and function. It is, and always has been, a glorified storage space that has been modified to display its contents in a more organized and useful-for-the-retriever fashion when called upon to do so. Once Tom left, the Room reverted to its normally state, leaving its new contents- the diadem -still contained inside, even if not exactly how Tom thought he had left it.

Assuming that this was the general sequence of events allows us to place at least part of the cause of Voldie's fall at the feet of one of his flaws besides general stupidity. Heck, it even tallies well with what Rowling claimed she was writing about. Riddle was so obsessed with glory and secrets that he forgot the value of the simple things in life: in this case, a storage closet. It also plays into her supposed themes of acceptance and the difference between what we think we want and what is actually good for us.

I realize that there isn't much evidence either way in the book, but we've at least seen from the twin's example that one can stumble across the Room's Requirement functions and never realize exactly what they had found. Why couldn't the same have happened to Tom Riddle? And why should we assume that Riddle was such a complete f*cking moron that he left a piece of his very soul in what was clearly a pile of junk when we have another, more plausible explanation that still tallies with canon?

(Please pardon the French, Riddle was disappointing enough without ripping the plot holes wider.)

Re: RoHT or ROR?

[oryx_leucoryx]

Even if he realized the room normally functioned as a storage closet (which he likely did) what of it? The entrance to Salazar's Chamber was in the girl's washroom, it wasn't like he didn't have precedent.

IIUC, swythyv thinks the entrance to the Chamber of Secrets was originally to the nearby DADA teacher's office (originally Salazar's own office) and it was Tom who connected it to the plumbing in the girl's bathroom for better access, using what he knew of Muggle plumbing from his orphanage days.

Re: RoHT or ROR?

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Well, there's certainly ample leeway for it to have happened like that. Because there is no way that we'll ever know what it was that Tom actually found.

It is *easier* to find the Room of Hidden Things, certainly. If only because more people probably already know about it. But it all depends on what you ask for. Only the elves appear to be fully conversant with the fact that it will give you what you ask for (and Neville, by the end of the series).

Now, I've theorized elsewhere that Tom found the Room of Hidden Things at some point, and had been helping himself to anything charmed or potentially valuable, which he took to London during term breaks and sold at B&B for pocket money. We already know that he was a thief long before he was a murderer. I've also theorized that when Dippett removed the information on Horcruxes from the Library, to make Albus shut up about it, he stowed it there rather than keep it himself (*he* certainly didn't want it), where Tom found it, after Sluggy told him that the subject was banned, and not to be found in the Library. It fits what we have to try to sort into place and organize into a rational progression, but its all just theory, and impossible to prove.

Re: RoHT or ROR?

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

I agree completely that he probably found the Room of Hidden Things at some point during his Hogwarts career. I also find your conceit of stealing from it to fund further (mis)adventures to be clever and enjoyable. But when it comes to the idea of Tom willingly hiding his precious Horcrux amongst a pile of *junk* whose location is well known throughout the castle staff, I just cannot reconcile this AT ALL with what little of Riddle's personality we're given to work.