OOTP Chapter Thirty: "Grawp"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* AKA “The Most Pointless Chapter Ever”.

* Seriously, even “Hagrid’s Tale” could possibly be justified as a way of telling us what Hagrid had been getting up to, but this... does Grawp serve any purpose other than chasing those centaurs away when Hermione’s leading Umbridge off to her raping?

* “Harry was certain that the other teachers could have removed the swamp” = “JKR wants us to think that the other teachers could have removed the swamp, but can’t tell us directly due to her choice of narrative voice”.

* Fred and George have left “two large broom-shaped holes in Umbridge’s office door”, foreshadowing the Snape-shaped hole in DH.

* That security troll guarding Harry’s broom is just so hilariously over-the-top, it’s hard to know what to make of it.

* Bubble Charms are now common knowledge, even though in the last book they were so rare that Harry, Ron and Hermione never found any mention of them despite searching for days (weeks?) in the library.

* The Inquisitorial Squad members are constantly being sent to hospital, but we don’t hear of them doing the same thing to any of the students. Don’t think that this means the IS are better than the other students, though. They’re Slytherin, and therefore evil. Behaviour has nothing to do with it.

* Sprouting antlers sounds kind of cool, actually. You could run around pretending to be a Celtic deity.

* You’d have thought that Umbridge would be able to find out about the Skiving Snackboxes some way. Did none of the Slytherins ever hear about them?

* When I first read about the Snackboxes, my main thought was “But education is important! You shouldn’t just be skipping classes like that!” which I suppose just goes to show that I’m not cool enough for these novels.

* Montague is still in the hospital after... how long is it now? Days? Weeks? The Trio still don’t tell Madam Pomfrey what happened to him, though. Heaven forbid that they should do anything to help a Slytherin!

* Besides, he deserves potentially permanent brain damage for trying to take points off Gryffindor. Erm... OK.

* Also, note how Hermione backs down on this. I’m not sure why, since it would seem more in-character for her to go and tell anyway. Maybe she doesn’t actually care about Montague, but feels like she ought to at least make a gesture in the direction of helping him. Sort of like seeing a third-world crisis on the news, saying “Oh dear, we really ought to do something”, and then not actually getting round to doing anything.

* “If you want to worry about anyone, Hermione, worry about me!” Here we have Ron’s entire personality summed up in one line.

* Harry’s care about the Twins getting into trouble is quite touching. A pity his care doesn’t extend to other people – like, say, Montague.

* Wait, no, I see my mistake. I said “people like Montague”, when we all know that Montague isn’t a person, he’s a Slytherin. So totally different, then.

* Sadist!Harry alert – he’s feeling “a kind of vindictive pleasure” at reminding Ron of how incompetent he is at Quidditch.

* Slytherin “had been narrowly defeated by Hufflepuff in their last match”. Whenever any teams looks like they’ll beat Gryffindor, you can count on them to obligingly start playing worse to compensate.

* Hermione’s right that Fred and George weren’t good for Ron’s confidence, and that he might do better now that they’re now constantly belittling him. Funnily enough, she doesn’t seem to use this line of thought on her own behaviour.

* Hagrid comes and takes Harry and Hermione to talk with him, conveniently allowing JKR to get away with not writing this Quidditch match.

* So how big is the Forbidden Forest? It would have to be pretty large to accommodate all those giant animals, but I don’t think that there are any forests big enough in that part of the world. Maybe it’s under some magical concealment too.

* I’m surprised Umbridge hasn’t given Hagrid the sack earlier, to be honest. It’s not like she has no excuse to – she was sent to improve Hogwarts standards, he’s incompetent, so firing him would be perfectly justifiable.

* Hagrid guilt-trips Harry and Hermione into helping him without telling them what it is they’ll be helping with. What a good friend that man is.

* Hermione’s horrified at what Hagrid’s done. I suppose it’s too much to hope for that she’s upset at the suffering this will cause Grawp, as opposed to the possibility that she might get in trouble somehow.

* Grawp’s a good guy, so when he attacks Hagrid it’s because he “don’ know his own strength,” rather than because he doesn’t actually like Hagrid and is trying to make him to go away.

* Also because Grawp’s a good guy, the other giants who bully him are nasty and cruel, not righteous avengers of injustice like the Marauders or the Trio are.

* Grawp’s intelligence level here seems like that of a dog, or some other sort of animal. Assuming that this is normal for a giant, then it’s no wonder Hagrid’s ashamed of his parentage. It’d be like admitting that your dad had a liking for bestiality.

* So Grawp kept trying to return home, and is now tied to the ground with ropes. Yeah, Hagrid’s good with animals, alright. *rolls eyes*

* Hagrid calls Grawp a “big buffoon”. Note how there’s never any suggestion that he deserves to get his chest cut open for insulting an animal like this.

* At least Hagrid’s efforts are portrayed as ridiculous and quixotic, which is more than we can say for most of the good guys’ flaws in these books.

* Hagrid defends Firenze by saying that he was just helping Dumbledore, as if helping Dumbledore is always right and the only defence anybody could ever need for their actions. Oh wait, it is.

* Why does Hermione have to back down, again? Come on, Granger, you’re right, Hagrid does deserve to get the sack. You’re so pig-headed about that SPEW thing, but you cave in when you’re actually on the right side?

* Ron yells that they won, as if he knows they’ve been away. Surely it would be more natural for him to assume that they had been at the match, and therefore knew the result? Even if he knew that they’d be absent, wouldn’t we expect him to be annoyed at them for missing his moment of glory?

* Normally I’d wonder why we didn’t get to see the Quidditch match, when it clearly represents the resolution of a fairly major subplot. In this case, however, it isn’t the resolution of the subplot: Ron will go back to being insecure again in the next book, as if this whole thing never happened.

* And I’m not sure why everybody’s cheering Ron in particular, given that Keeper is quite a minor role. Wouldn’t it be more natural for them all to be cheering the Seeker? Or would that make Ginny too much of an obvious Mary Sue even for JK Rowling?

Comments

[sunnyskywalker]

What are those brooms made out of, anyway? Or is Umbridge's office door made out of tissue paper? (Pink, no doubt.)

Not like watching the news - this is more like their friends told them, "We totally hit this dude with a car after he cut us off, the bastard, and we have no idea whether he's okay because we just left him there," and then dithered about whether they should maybe take the guy's medical alert bracelet their friends picked up at the scene to the hospital so the doctors would have more information to help treat him. Much more personal, something they could easily take action on.

I so wish Hagrid's tale had ended with them getting run out of Giantville. Failed mission, rats. And then Hermione could have led Umbridge to the Acromantula colony (she only has to know a rough direction based on what the boys told her, and head that way - it can't be that far if two kids can get there without much trouble).

[harpsi-fizz.livejournal.com]

When I first read about the Snackboxes, my main thought was “But education is important! You shouldn’t just be skipping classes like that!” which I suppose just goes to show that I’m not cool enough for these novels.
True Harry Potter Facts: Skiving Snackboxes did not start off as an idea to be sold in a joke shop. Originally, the Weasley twins wanted to slip the treats to everyone in their year so that by default, they would have the highest grades. Originally, the only candies they had made the consumer faint, but George realized that if everyone started fainting, it might look suspect, so they decided to come up with a variety of different ailments. Since they didn't pay attention well enough in potions to have any sort of faith in what the candies would do, they needed test subjects, hence the Jokes Shop facade. When this idea prove to be financially sound, they skipped the idea of grades completely, since the old plan would require them to sit for a test anyway.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

That security troll guarding Harry’s broom is just so hilariously over-the-top, it’s hard to know what to make of it.

And of course, Umbridge's having a troll in the castle is totally different than Dumbledore's having one.

Sprouting antlers sounds kind of cool, actually. You could run around pretending to be a Celtic deity.

Cernunnos FTW!

When I first read about the Snackboxes, my main thought was “But education is important! You shouldn’t just be skipping classes like that!” which I suppose just goes to show that I’m not cool enough for these novels.

You and all of us here at DTCL. That's why we're here and not on one of the JKR dittohead sites like dedfromsnake.

Sadist!Harry alert – he’s feeling “a kind of vindictive pleasure” at reminding Ron of how incompetent he is at Quidditch.

And this is his best friend. All together now: "Can you feel the love tonight?"

Jesus--you know, that guy Harry's modeled after--said there's no virtue in treating well the people you like because anybody can do that. The virtue lies in treating well the people you don't like. So what does it say about Harry that he doesn't even treat well the people he likes? How screwed up is that--and he?

Hermione’s right that Fred and George weren’t good for Ron’s confidence, and that he might do better now that they’re now constantly belittling him. Funnily enough, she doesn’t seem to use this line of thought on her own behaviour.

But that would require insight into her own personality, behavior, and motivations, which nobody in this series has--because their creator doesn't, either.

Hagrid comes and takes Harry and Hermione to talk with him, conveniently allowing JKR to get away with not writing this Quidditch match.

Silly for_diddled. Quidditch only matters when Harry's either playing or angsting about not playing.

Hagrid calls Grawp a “big buffoon”. Note how there’s never any suggestion that he deserves to get his chest cut open for insulting an animal like this.

But Grawp's his family. Insulting your family is A-OK, as long as the narrator approves of your doing so. See "Weasley, Percy" for details.

Ron yells that they won, as if he knows they’ve been away. Surely it would be more natural for him to assume that they had been at the match, and therefore knew the result? Even if he knew that they’d be absent, wouldn’t we expect him to be annoyed at them for missing his moment of glory?

Nah. He knows how unimportant he is. He knows they have better things to do than cheer him on. Showing up only matters when Harry's playing.

[sunnyskywalker]

You know what would have been neat? Some Muggleborn kid using the Skiving Snackboxes to skip learning how to turn rabbits into slippers to sneak off and study algebra and English literature in furtherance of a grand Blow This Magical Popstand and Go to University plan. I'm going to pretend that actually happened and Harry just didn't notice.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

does Grawp serve any purpose other than chasing those centaurs away when Hermione’s leading Umbridge off to her raping?

Yes. He inadvertently calls the thestrals to the kids by getting large drops of blood all over them. Well, one could debate whether that's a purpose, exactly, but I do think the thestrals are cool.

Otherwise, great spork!

[oryx_leucoryx]

Both actions involve the same scene. In DH he also tosses Hagrid into the castle through a window (which does not result in a Hagrid-shaped hole) and at some point participates in fighting the two giants on the DE side - with the assistance of thestrals and Buckbeak. Altogether lame.

[sunnyskywalker]

I would have cut Grawp and just had them get badly scratched in some brambles or mildly injured by the IS, but I guess that's why I'm not a world-famous author.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

* Hagrid guilt-trips Harry and Hermione into helping him without telling them what it is they’ll be helping with. What a good friend that man is.

Just like Hermione with the DA parchment.

* And I’m not sure why everybody’s cheering Ron in particular, given that Keeper is quite a minor role. Wouldn’t it be more natural for them all to be cheering the Seeker? Or would that make Ginny too much of an obvious Mary Sue even for JK Rowling?

Presumably this match saw the worst performances of both Seekers in Hogwarts' history, thus making it work like a sensible sport*. Ginny's actually incomptetent, and coincidentally Harry's never present to witness this. For obvious reasons, no one dares tell either Harry or Ginny the truth.

* Two words I never thought I'd put together.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

* Sadist!Harry alert – he’s feeling “a kind of vindictive pleasure” at reminding Ron of how incompetent he is at Quidditch.
I'm afraid I can't remember this - why did he feel vindictive here?

* Hermione’s right that Fred and George weren’t good for Ron’s confidence, and that he might do better now that they’re now constantly belittling him. Funnily enough, she doesn’t seem to use this line of thought on her own behaviour.<7I<
To Hermione, the big difference lies in the motive behind the belittling. The twins do it just to have some cruel fun - and we know that to be their favourite kind. Whereas Hermione does it to help Ron improve. So you see he should really be grateful to her.

And I’m not sure why everybody’s cheering Ron in particular, given that Keeper is quite a minor role. Wouldn’t it be more natural for them all to be cheering the Seeker? Or would that make Ginny too much of an obvious Mary Sue even for JK Rowling?
On the contrary, I'd say the reason was that Ginny couldn't possibly be given limelight as a Seeker. That's her husband's-to-be role to shine as God intended.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I can't remember this - why did he feel vindictive here?

I think it was envy of Ron being allowed to play Quidditch.

[oryx_leucoryx]

“JKR wants us to think that the other teachers could have removed the swamp, but can’t tell us directly due to her choice of narrative voice”.

It will be done later, though.

That security troll guarding Harry’s broom is just so hilariously over-the-top, it’s hard to know what to make of it.

Harry's broom is as important as the Philosophers' Stone?

Bubble Charms are now common knowledge, even though in the last book they were so rare that Harry, Ron and Hermione never found any mention of them despite searching for days (weeks?) in the library.

Told ya' - all the relevant books were in Hufflepuff House.

Great point about the IS.

Normally I’d wonder why we didn’t get to see the Quidditch match, when it clearly represents the resolution of a fairly major subplot. In this case, however, it isn’t the resolution of the subplot: Ron will go back to being insecure again in the next book, as if this whole thing never happened.

Since Harry didn't see Ron's performance it didn't happen. Or perhaps the anxiety resurfaces in HBP because Ron realized that although he managed to play OK in front of the entire school, now he was going to play with Harry also participating.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore hires security trolls to guard the Fat Lady in chap. 14 of PoA.

[oryx_leucoryx]

And in PS he let Quirrell use a troll to 'protect' the Philosophers' Stone.

[https://me.yahoo.com/a/gNLVidA.xeLuPiOU_2B_USM.HYNFjA--#b0b6b (from livejournal.com)]

>> Bubble Charms are now common knowledge, even though in the last book they were so rare that Harry, Ron and Hermione never found any mention of them despite searching for days (weeks?) in the library.

> Told ya' - all the relevant books were in Hufflepuff House.

Or maybe it was an obscure, generally unknown charm until everyone saw Cedric do it in the Second Task the previous year.

Thanks for the sporkage. The only good thing about this chapter was that Hermione had the guts to say that Hagrid was getting completely out of hand, even if she had to cry and say sorry immediately after.
It is rather creepy now that I think about it that out of the kindness of his heart, Hagrid kidnaps, ties down and forcibly 'civilises' his brother ... interesting idea of family values JK has here. I guess it was for the Greater Good?

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

You know, there is something incredibly bizarre about a school story that is against education. It's like a detective story that is against catching criminals.

[oryx_leucoryx]

The purpose of school is to be a place where kids can be together, do fun stuff and rebel against boring adults. Any education that happens is incidental. How common is this in stories intended for the youth?

JKR's jibes

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

JKR would call you a geek for making that observation. No exaggeration, she really is that immature in interviews when referring to those who criticise the series for whatever reason.

Re: JKR's jibes

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

What, seriously! I really want to see some of these interviews now.

That makes me think of young writers on Fanfic.net that get angry if you say anything negative about their stories, no matter how diplomatically you put it.

Re: JKR's jibes

[oryx_leucoryx]

Most of the interviews are summed up and linked from http://accio-quote.org/

Re: JKR's jibes

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

While I haven't found anything like that yet, I did find the following:

JKR: "Bigotry is probably the thing I detest most. All forms of intolerance, the whole idea of "that which is different from me is necessary evil." I really like to explore the idea that difference is equal and good. But there's another idea that I like to explore, too. Oppressed groups are not, generally speaking, people who stand firmly together -- no, sadly, they kind of subdivide among themselves and fight like hell. That's human nature, so that's what you see here. This world of wizards and witches, they're already ostracized, and then within themselves, they've formed a loathsome pecking order." [Read the exact quote from Entertainment Weekly, 2000]

Is she honestly that unaware of the moral context of her books?

Re: JKR's jibes

[sweettalkeress.livejournal.com]

As if wizards are the oppressed group here. It's easier to feel sorry for the non-magic folk who are locked out of the loop because they're deemed too stupid to understand.

Re: JKR's jibes

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Oh, poor things! How I weep for them! *barfs*

It's like feeling bad for those poor, oppressed southern slaveholders before the Civil War. The woman's morality makes me ill.

Re: JKR's jibes

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

JKR would call you a geek for making that observation. No exaggeration, she really is that immature in interviews when referring to those who criticise the series for whatever reason.

At least she's honest about her contempt, conceit, and defensiveness. It's easier to defend against that than the subtle digs of Laurie R. King, who thinks anybody who objects to her depiction of Sherlock Holmes as a drunk, wimpy, dimwitted pervert is mentally unbalanced. Oh, she's much too clever to say that outright, but she refers to her sellout Sherlockian friends as "eminently well-balanced," (a redundancy) which means that anybody who doesn't agree with them and her must be unbalanced. Of course anyone who objects to degrading a cultural icon and using him to sell alcoholism, incest, and pedophilia has to be crazy. And just like Rowling, King's books have one message that's overt and another, diametrically opposed message that's covert. Or to put it in philosophical terms, "An author's arrogance and defensiveness about her work exist in equal proportion to her immaturity and lack of personal insight."

Re: JKR's jibes

[sunnyskywalker]

What, the cocaine and tobacco and sometimes coffee binges weren't enough and she felt she had to add alcoholism to the mix? Imagination fail.

Re: JKR's jibes

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Yes, because her own creation, Mary Russell, who becomes Pseudo-Holmes's wife, is an alcoholic, the kind who has to get drunk every day in order to function. To make her excessive drinking less obvious, King has "Holmes" and other characters drink too much, also. Not that I'm suggesting King is consciously aware of that, mind you. I've read her blog, and it's clear she's one of those immature people who thinks getting drunk and making jokes about it are funny.

Re: JKR's jibes

[sunnyskywalker]

I really hate alcoholism being presented as a joke. Ugh. Will definitely avoid those, thanks.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

* Bubble Charms are now common knowledge, even though in the last book they were so rare that Harry, Ron and Hermione never found any mention of them despite searching for days (weeks?) in the library.

Maybe wizard librarians are just really bad. They couldn't even find Flamel (a Muggle would have the name in five seconds on a computer or a minute with a Dictionary of Biography / encyclopedia)

* The Inquisitorial Squad members are constantly being sent to hospital, but we don’t hear of them doing the same thing to any of the students. Don’t think that this means the IS are better than the other students, though. They’re Slytherin, and therefore evil. Behaviour has nothing to do with it.

Also, they're HPverse villains and are capable of simultaneously being (1) all-powerful, terrifying and act with impunity and also (2) easily defeated, stupid and constantly humiliated, and rarely use their powers to get any substantial revenge.

* Hagrid comes and takes Harry and Hermione to talk with him, conveniently allowing JKR to get away with not writing this Quidditch match.

A pity that he couldn't also have Harry twist his ankle so as to avoid the Grawp scenes too.

* When I first read about the Snackboxes, my main thought was “But education is important! You shouldn’t just be skipping classes like that!” which I suppose just goes to show that I’m not cool enough for these novels.

Not to mention that they sell them openly, so all the teachers would know about them, rather than sneakily in corridors and corners.

* Hermione’s right that Fred and George weren’t good for Ron’s confidence, and that he might do better now that they’re now constantly belittling him. Funnily enough, she doesn’t seem to use this line of thought on her own behaviour.

Or, indeed, in their thoughts on Percy

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/Maybe wizard librarians are just really bad. They couldn't even find Flamel (a Muggle would have the name in five seconds on a computer or a minute with a Dictionary of Biography / encyclopedia)/

Reminds me of this comic: http://loleia.deviantart.com/art/Harry-Potter-Comic-04-96585429

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

I was thinking about this as well. Maybe Library of Congress Classification just isn't good enough for them. ;-)

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Well, they are in Britain. ;-) I can see why they wouldn't want to use a system named after another country's legislative branch. Besides, these are people who can't find their own butts with both hands. They'd certainly be overwhelmed by the intricacies of the LoC system. However, I don't see why they can't use the Dewey Decimal system. That's what's used in elementary through high schools in the U. S., which is the level Hogwarts is on. For that matter, they may have some special classification system all their own that deals with magical subjects. That's one of those little details that would have made the books so much better if Rowling had thought to include it.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Actually, I am pretty sure that real life British libraries use LCC.

http://www.bl.uk/bibliographic/subject.html

Dewey is also originally an American system, but I think that some libraries there may use it.

I think that they would probably do best to have some sort of modified Library of Congress subject headings, like they have for medical libraries. (MeSH)

Dear God, I think I have been in library school too long.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Also, I agree that these people are seriously challenged at finding things. That idea that magic is a sapient force that feeds on their mental capacities in exchange for granting special abilities is looking pretty good right now. I sure wish I could remember who first proposed it. Quite ingenious.

[oryx_leucoryx]

So being magically strong and reasonably intelligent requires superpowers? Or do wizards get to choose whether to sacrifice intelligence or morality for their magic?

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

My guess is the latter, though I might be over-critical here. The fact that so few people in the wizarding world are truly intelligent, creative or compassionate makes me think that there has to be some trade off going on. Or maybe the magic prefers to feed off of dull, elitist people?

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

If that were the case, most politicians and celebrities would be magical, not to mention all the JKR dittoheads. Now, that's a scary thought. ;-)

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Wow, I am not sure whether that is hilarious or terrifying. Probably both.

[sunnyskywalker]

To be fair, they found Flamel's full bio as soon as Hermione realized she needed to look in a book other than a 20th century biographical dictionary, and they never asked Pince. She probably knew exactly where to find the right book.

[penguinsuzie.livejournal.com]

* When I first read about the Snackboxes, my main thought was “But education is important! You shouldn’t just be skipping classes like that!” which I suppose just goes to show that I’m not cool enough for these novels.

To be fair education at Hogwarts doesn't seem that great.

* Wait, no, I see my mistake. I said “people like Montague”, when we all know that Montague isn’t a person, he’s a Slytherin. So totally different, then.

This really reminds me of Harry's momentary horror at what his father had done to Snape and the idea of using that spell on anyone then thinking unless it was someone who deserved it like Malfoy.

I like to think that Grawp and the other giants aren't stupid they just can't communicate properly with humans and have no patience for wizards who try to use them. I'm curious how Voldemort gained their help, possibly by the fact that if there was no Statute of Secrecy and the Ministry enforcing it then the Giants would gain back more of their land. It's ironic that Voldemort arguably treats non humans with more respect than the good guys.

I feel rather sorry for Ron. He seems to be the one Rowling likes the least out of the Trio and he's constantly sacrificed for the other two. His knowledge of the wizarding world goes to Hermione and he always has to be the one to fail or do worse than Harry at everything.

(I hope it's not bad form to comment on old threads. I know that's the case on some sites and it's always a shame as it stops discussion.)