[identity profile] sweettalkeress.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] deathtocapslock
So recently I was reading this (actually really excellent) Pokemon fanfic, which appears to have been an attempt to iron out a rather confusing Pokedex entry. Basically, the fanfic revolves around the idea that a certain species of Pokemon has a custom that all young male members of the community must kill their own mothers as a rite of passage. Anyone who can’t do it is disgraced and treated as vermin for the rest of his life- failure to kill your own mother is considered a sign of despicable cowardice. The more I thought about this fic, the more I realized that there’s a similar parallel in Harry Potter- except that instead of the message being, “If you’re truly a real man and worthy of belonging, you’ll kill your own family on instruction,” it’s “If you’re truly brave, a true Gryffindor, you’ll kill yourself on instruction.”
 
In Harry Potter we see characters committing ritual suicide on just about any pretext. We see people kill themselves to protect their family (Lily and James), to escape a bad boss (Regulus), as a strategic ploy (Dumbledore), and even to vanquish their enemies (Harry). Granted, it’s quite possible that these people were better off dead than otherwise, given the circumstances; but still, it does seem to be a pattern.
 
Consider the fate of Lily Potter nee Evans. She dies to protect her son, and in doing so, grants him special love protection. Now, it’s stressed again and again that Lily’s sacrifice was so noble and granted Harry the protection specifically because Voldemort offered her a choice about whether or not to live. And it was noble of her to die for her child- but it also established a pattern that the books’ attitudes towards death reinforce: if you’re in big enough trouble, trouble you can’t escape from any other way, die. Preferably as prettily and dramatically as you can manage.
 
Then there’s Regulus. There was another essay on here in which someone, I think it was Terri Testing, puts it out there that Regulus’s search for Slytherin’s locket was not to have the locket destroyed, but to, effectively, commit ritual suicide rather than serve Voldemort any longer. And for this the heroes emphatically reward him.
 
Now consider Peter Pettigrew. Peter Pettigrew is easily one of the most confusing characters Harry Potter ever gave us. He’s pretty much the only Gryffindor who’s never presented in a remotely positive light (at least not once his identity becomes known). The main reason given for this (both by the author and her fans) is that he’s a coward who betrayed Lily and James rather than be killed by Voldemort (granted, we don’t actually know how much of this is true, since the evidence of his cowardice is rather conflicting and since we never get his side of the story- just the main characters’ assumptions). Tellingly, when Sirius confronts him, he specifically goes out of his ways to say that, had Sirius been in his situation, he would have willingly died rather than betray his friends (the fact that Peter easily would have been better off dead than with Voldemort is largely beside the point here, since it’s only DE’s, and never anyone who could be counted among the “good guys” who serve Voldemort out of fear).
 
And then there’s Phineas Nigellus, who makes the statement about Slytherins choosing to save their own necks. This in and of itself is taken as reason to regard Slytherins as contemptible cravens- they won’t kill themselves for any greater good they can come up with (and you could argue that one of the downsides of “ambition” is that you’re motivated to stay around and wait for things to turn in your favor, rather than the Gryffindorish “bravery” of permanently ending your problems through death).
 
To return to the fanfic I read earlier, like most pieces of media dealing with death cults from the inside, the fanfic mostly just illustrates how things are done- it doesn’t take a stance on the morality of the characters’ actions, and the narrator is genuinely conflicted about killing someone he loves so much- but not enough to stop himself from doing it. What makes Harry Potter’s death cult so freaky is that it really does seem as though suicide is treated, not merely as a cornerstone of wizarding culture but *objectively good and righteous.* Throughout the series we meet literally no suicide bombers among the villains (despite the fact that the DE’s are terrorists, and terrorists in the modern world are notorious for suicide bombing). No, the only suicide bomber we meet (so to speak) is Harry Potter- who’s supposed to be the hero we’re meant to admire!
 
So, yeah.

Date: 2011-12-05 06:18 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] condwiramurs.livejournal.com
True. But Dumbledore knew MUCH earlier. Snape knew too, although much later than Dumbles, and he was in a situation that would have made it difficult for him to do much experimenting. And it is a bit surprising that the Trio never thought about the Veil, etc. in regard to the other Horcruxes.

Date: 2011-12-05 06:59 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Harry finds out alone and doesn't share with anyone. But the forest and Hogsmeade were swarming with dementors. If only someone with half a brain was with him (for instance if Severus had told him while not dying) they might have come up with the thought that risking a dementor was better than certain death. Especially if Severus prepared some precautions for such an eventuality.

Date: 2011-12-05 07:18 pm (UTC)
sunnyskywalker: Young Beru Lars from Attack of the Clones; text "Sunnyskywalker" (spandex jackets)
From: [personal profile] sunnyskywalker
Since Voldemort himself would have still been around as Harry's pseudo-Horcrux, then even if the Dementor did suck his soul out he might be able to pop back in after they'd drifted off to find more food. Harry wouldn't know that, but he might at least look at it as certain death vs. only almost certain death.

Also, since they spent the whole year trying to figure out how to destroy Horcruxes, they might have wondered whether they could sneak into Hogwarts and steal the fangs long ago, or whether there was any way to buy some venom in Knockturn Alley or something - and then since they had nothing else to do, they might have tried figuring out an antidote just in case they got some venom and accidentally poisoned themselves in the process. Because even if it's a long shot, wasn't the whole damn quest a long shot so they might as well prepare for everything they could?

Date: 2011-12-07 05:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] for-diddled.livejournal.com
To be fair to Dumbles, he didn't leave Harry completely without defence, since (IIRC) that whole "Voldemort himself must be the one to do it" thing was to make sure that only the Horcrux got destroyed. Although I suppose that even if Harry wasn't killed by Voldie's AK, he'd still be surrounded by Death Eaters who'd be able to finish him off, or Voldemort himself could have another go. I'm not sure what Dumbledore hoped would happen then. (That they'd all be too scared by Potter's survival to try again?)

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