HBP Chapter Fourteen: "Felix Felicis"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* First up, I’m not sure what the name “felix felicis” is about. It’s Latin for “happy of happy”, but that makes no sense whatsoever. If I were in a particularly cynical mood, I might suggest she looked up happy in a Latin dictionary, found felix felicis, and didn’t realise that the second word was just the genitive singular of the first.

* Ron correctly points out that Harry’s lessons with Dumbledore aren’t actually teaching him anything useful, although once again we’re probably expected to judge him for his lack of blind faith in whatever his superiors say ought to be done.

* Hermione’s defence, that the lessons help to find out Voldemort’s weaknesses, might be more convincing if Harry ever actually uses something from Voldemort’s childhood against him.

* I’m not sure why Harry’s so averse to attending Slug Club meetings. Yeah, Slughorn’s a bit obsequious, but not so bad as to justify Potter’s constant attempts to avoid him.

* This scene perfectly captures Ron and Hermione’s dynamic: Ron sneers at Hermione for being better than him, and Hermione puts Ron down and makes him feel jealous. If this is JKR’s idea of romance, I’d hate to be her husband.

* Still, at least Harry’s got his priorities right: how will he be affected if they start going out?

* “Under the influence of Butterbeer” makes it sound like an alcoholic drink, but I’m pretty sure we’ve seen no-one (or at least no-one human) get drunk off it before, and there’s never been any indication of an age limit for drinking it. Oh dear, continuity.

* Seamus slams his books and looks sour when Dean gets a place on the team instead of him. For all that fandom has Slytherins down as the Hogwarts drama queens, I think that Gryffindors are definitely the most stroppy.

* I can’t imagine where the rest of Gryffindor house gets the idea that Harry plays favourites from. Except perhaps from the fact that he chose his best friend Ron two years in a row, despite the fact that Ron always goes to pieces whenever there’s a game on. Perhaps that has something to do with it.

* Still, it’s a pity JKR had to resurrect nervouskeeper!Ron. Not only was it tedious enough in the last book, its inclusion here just makes the Quidditch scenes in Phoenix seem even more pointless, and Ron even more needlessly pathetic.

* Ginny, of course, looks even better than usual in this scene: not only does she score most of the goals against Ron (which is probably meant to increase his emasculation – even his little sister is better than him), but she also makes Harry laugh with her sassy put-downs. When she and Harry get married they can both bond over their mutual enjoyment of other people’s discomfort.

* And… here comes the chest monster! Honestly, Harry and his chest monster must be the second-worst romance I’ve ever read (the first, of course, is Ron and Hermione).

* We know Ginny’s going to be awesome in this scene when she begins by “tossing her long red hair and glaring at Ron”. Somebody kill me now.

* What’s with all this “let’s get this straight once and for all” business? Ginny’s choice of words seems to imply that Ron keeps prying into her love life, but we’ve never been given any indication that this is the case.

* I presume the thing Ron doesn’t want people calling Ginny is “slut”? I wish they would. Not because I think it’s true, but because Ginny’s just so irritating that anything which would annoy her is OK by me.

* Ginny has a go at Ron for not having enough experience. Because obviously, modern society isn’t nearly sexualised enough, we need a series of popular books telling children that anybody who hasn’t had enough sexual experience is pathetic.

* Man, Ginny’s just a total bitch in this scene. Yes, Ron was rude to her, but her response is really disproportionate and uncalled-for.

* It’s odd, but Ginny seems to get most worked up about the way Ron tries to get Fleur’s attention. She sounds rather like a spurned lover here. Hmm, maybe all that Weasleycest fic isn’t quite so out there as I’d assumed.

* No, Harry, don’t stop Ron from cursing her! Let Ginny get zapped for once!

* So Ginny flounces off, leaving Ron behind. I suppose he should count himself lucky she didn’t whip out her wand and perform a super-sassy Bat-Bogey Hex on him.

* “She’s Ron’s sister, Harry told himself firmly. Ron’s sister. She’s out of bounds.” Even though Ron practically threw her at him at the end of the last book. Plot-induced amnesia strikes again.

* Harry feels “dazed and confused” the next morning. So do I, after trying to make sense of this book.

* Hermione’s feeling “hurt and bewildered” by Ron’s “icy, sneering indifference”. If this was a semi-believable book, I’d say that Ron had finally had enough of Hermione’s constant passive aggressiveness and undermining, but as it is I think we’re supposed to assume he’s just upset at finding out Hermione had snogged Krum two years ago.

* Incidentally, why is this supposed to be such a big and shocking revelation? Surely when two teenagers go out, the natural assumption is that they’ll end up snogging?

* Luckily for Ron, he’s got no need to worry: Hermione’s just getting her necessary practice in to hone her technique for her true man.

* FOR GOD’S SAKE ROWLING SHUT UP ABOUT THAT SODDING BAT-BOGEY HEX GINNY IS COOL AND SASSY WE GET IT ALREADY STOP RAMMING IT DOWN OUR THROATS AAARGH… *takes deep breaths*

* Lavender’s trying to make Ron feel better. Keep away from him, you hussy! Ron doesn’t need a nice, friendly girlfriend, he needs a scornful and contemptuous one to keep him down in his rightful place.

* Well, at least the Slytherins are sensible enough to have substitute players.

* Harry gets his hand crushed by the Slytherin captain, and I seem to recall Flint used to do the same thing to Oliver Wood. Is hand-crushing a typical Slytherin trait then? Maybe all their parents told them about the importance of a good firm handshake, and they just take it a bit too far.

* Harry dislikes Zacharias heartily… presumably because he can just sense the latent evil in the boy, even though he hasn’t done anything yet which would merit such dislike. If anything, surely Harry ought to feel friendly towards a fellow DA member?

* Ginny scores four of Gryffindor’s six goals. Colour me shocked.

* The game goes pretty much unremarkably: Gryffindor score a few goals, and then Harry’s broom wins the game, rendering everything which came before totally pointless.

* “Oi, Harper! How much did Malfoy pay you to make you come on instead of him?” I’d say that distracting an opposing seeker like this was a very Slytherin thing to do, were it not for the fact that we hardly ever see Slytherins actually doing cunning and sneaky things like this.

* Not that playing on superior brooms and deliberately psyching out opponents makes the Gryffindors any less chivalrous, you understand.

* Ginny flies into Zach for his insufficiently fawning commentary, placing the crowning turd on the mountain of raw sewage that is this Quidditch game.

* “I never said you couldn’t [save goals]!” No, Hermione, you just implied it really, really strongly, such that nobody could miss that that was what you were thinking.

* Ron “looks like he’s eating [Lavender’s face],” unlike Ginny, who daintily glues herself to her boyfriend’s mouth.

* Unfortunately Ginny’s probably right: most first romances in these books seem to be for people to “refine their technique” before moving on to their true love.

* Hermione seems rather surprised that Ron got tired of her hectoring and decided to hook up with somebody who actually respects him instead. Maybe she’s been getting all her dating advice from The Game or whatever the wizarding equivalent is.

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I’m not sure why Harry’s so averse to attending Slug Club meetings.

He doesn't like being 'used'? Plus he's never liked people going on about his fame, right, he's always been humble that way.

You'd think he'd want to question Slughorn about his memories of his mother, though. But that lack of curiosity is consistent with all the books up to the very last, with Rowling having Harry artificially have absolutely no interest in his family, background or parents until he suddenly decides he has to visit their graves. Because she wanted to keep that for the last novel. Such horrible writing/plotting.

This scene perfectly captures Ron and Hermione’s dynamic: Ron sneers at Hermione for being better than him, and Hermione puts Ron down and makes him feel jealous. If this is JKR’s idea of romance ...

Rowling's portrayal of romantic love is just horrible; almost the only paint she has to draw it is jealousy-green. Ron's jealous of Hermione's suitors for half the books. In HBP he and Hermione are jealous of each other. Harry's feelings for Ginny spring from jealousy. In DH Ginny's every second appearance is marred by her being jealous of any female around Harry.

It's horrible. Thank goodness for superior fan fiction that actually have these characters LOVE each other!

Ginny, of course, looks even better than usual in this scene -

That's the rule for the entire novel, isn't it? HBP IS GINNY'S BOOK. Rowling only had the one tome to boot her up into "suitable for the hero's love interest" status. If you look closely you can see the rocket strapped to her back. :-)

I presume the thing Ron doesn’t want people calling Ginny is “slut”? I wish they would. Not because I think it’s true -

The 'Ginny is a slut' thing seems to be pretty common in the anti-Ginny side of the fandom. I'm anti-Ginny and several times I've had pro-Ginny fundamentalists accuse me of calling her a 'slut' when I never have.

Ginny's not a 'slut' - she doesn't sleep around, there's none of that hanky-panky in Rowling's child-rated books - but she IS The-Girl-Who-Dates. Half her character is defined by her dating activity. Because she's a one-dimensional character whose only purpose/dimension is to be a love interest, but still. She dates Michael, the very last scene of book 5 - the VERY LAST SCENE, this is IMPORTANT - is that she's IMMEDIATELY switching boyfriends, no pause, her dating is VITAL to her, to Dean; and then dates with barely a pause in this book, the focus squarely on The-Girl-Who-Dates.

She's not a slut, but she's the child-rated Rowling equivalent.

Ginny scores four of Gryffindor’s six goals. Colour me shocked.

Ha ha ha!!

Gawd, I remember the one time I read this book. The EYE-ROLLING as Rowling wrote some clumsy, artificial, in-your-face scenes to promote Ginny. It's just such bad writing/timing, isn't it?

“Oi, Harper! How much did Malfoy pay you to make you come on instead of him?”

I really wonder about Rowling sometimes. She was absolutely determined to give Harry no great intellect, no extra 'powers', no abilities of a 'hero'. She made him totally passive, winning in the end by a series of flukes and dei ex machina.

But in Quidditch, at least, she'd given him actual *talent*. (After manufacturing the game so his role was the only important one.) And yet, in this game, she only has him win through a non-sportsmanlike insult?!?!

And then she writes Ginny as such a brat, in both books 6 & 7, totally at odds with what she *tells* us she wrote in her desperate post-publication interviews. Rowling's a bad author, but sometimes I wonder if she was even trying at all with the last two books, once she knew they were best-sellers regardless of the effort put into them.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

While it is annoying that Ginny's character was boxed into just being the Love Interest, I'm not really comfortable criticizing her for dating a lot, for reasons related to the above thread. There's nothing inherently wrong with dating lots of people.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I'll have to disagree with you on this, then. Ginny's ... well, 'promiscuity' is the wrong word, as I've said earlier Rowling's world is a child-rated one ... dalliances with dating are (a) frequent, (b) serial, (c) a major part of what we see of the character, how she is defined and (d) shown to be highly important, even necessary, to the character herself.

She dates Michael. Then, when she dumps him, she *immediately* switches to Dean. There's no mention of delays or intervals of reflection. Nor any of 'love' or attraction. No, she's dumped Michael and she's decided to move on RIGHT AWAY to Dean. She is Ginny Weasley, the Girl Who Dates.

In HBP Pansy tells us that Ginny is well known, 'a lot of boys like her'. She's seen 'cozily closeted' with Dean at the very public Madam Puddifoot's. She tells Ron that "everyone else does it", it's not "something disgusting". That's Ginny, age 15, telling us that she's okay with 'everyone kissing'. Then, following a very brief interval after she breaks up with Dean, she throws herself at Harry in front of the entire populace of Gryffindor Tower. The fact that she's now dating Harry interests "a great number of people".

You might not find it comfortable, but canon Ginny Weasley views dating as something she's just got to do. It's a very large part of all we ever see her doing. She declares that it's something that 'everyone does' (consistent with her feeling the pressing need to have a boyfriend). She takes no real pains to keep her dalliances private. In fact she delights in making her liaisons with Harry very public - throwing herself at him, then encouraging the girls who ask her for Harry gossip (re Romilda Vane and the tattoo). Not asking them for privacy. Ginny Weasley is The Girl Who Dates and the public are all agog about her latest conquest. And she has absolutely no problems about that; she plays along with it, if not encourage it.

I don't like it either. A not-very-nice girl like Ginny shouldn't be promoted as the love interest of the 'hero'. But that's what Rowling did.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

She dates Michael from the ball in GoF until the end of OotP -- a year and a half. Yes, she abandons Neville at that ball, which wasn't especially nice, but they weren't going out; Neville asked Ginny because Hermione had turned him down.

At the end of OotP, she's commenting on having dumped him after the Gryffindor-Ravenclaw Quidditch match -- which was before people were gearing up for OWLs, which themselves were spread out over two weeks. Then there appears to be another week between OWLs and the trip home where Ginny mentions all of this:

The journey home on the Hogwarts Express next day was eventful in several ways. Firstly Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle, who had clearly been waiting all week for the opportunity to strike without teacher witnesses, attempted to ambush Harry halfway down the train as he made his way back from the toilet.

There's no information on when she got together with Dean, so we have no particular reason to believe that she "*immediately* switches to Dean." You know, after being with the same boyfriend for a year and a half.

Then Ginny is with Dean for all of HBP until *well* into spring. So, nearly a year. After we see her break up with Dean, and *before* she gets together with Harry, we have this line:

The following fortnight saw the best Quidditch practices Harry had known as Captain.

That's two weeks right there, and that isn't *all* of the time between the two relationships. Is that a "very brief interval," in your book? I suppose considering that she'd been with Dean for nearly a year, it's pretty brief.

I'm sorry, but while the character might be defined by her boyfriends in these books because we're told so little else about her, none of the above is exactly *outrageous.*

There's plenty to dislike about Ginny. It isn't necessary to make everything she does something to be held against her.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Yes, she abandons Neville at that ball -

Wow, really? I'd remembered various things about that but I've never picked up on the canon prose that supported it. Okay, I'll take that as written. Wow. Yet another boyfriend for the Girl Who Dates.

The 'immediacy' of Ginny's switch from Michael to Dean was my impression from the book - we learn about her dumping Michael in the same announcement in which Ginny proclaims she's moving onto Dean. But I'll happily accept what you've said. Because, yes, two-three weeks is pretty much immediate compared with a dating span of 1.5 years.

And then the Oh-my-God-I've-got-to-DATE 'immediacy' again with the next switch:

That's two weeks right there, and that isn't *all* of the time between the two relationships. Is that a "very brief interval," in your book?

Yes. That's why I said "very brief interval"; in this latest switch for the Girl Who Dates I knew there were a few weeks interval between dumping Dean and throwing herself at Harry.

while the character might be defined by her boyfriends in these books -

Right. Which is why I'm calling her a serial dater, the Girl Who Dates.

It isn't necessary to make everything she does something to be held against her.

I think a girl who's defined largely/only by her boyfriends - as you've admitted yourself - is a pretty sad state of affairs.

Hermione Granger - a girl who saved Harry Potter on numerous occasions, strived to save Buckbeak, launched a campaign to rescue house elves from despicable conditions, set up the D.A., top of her class, prefect.

Ginny Weasley - oh, she dated Neville, abandoned/rebuffed him for Michael, dumped him and hooked up with Dean Thomas, dumped him and threw herself at HARRY POTTER, a lot of Hogwarts boys like her don't you know - yeah, nothing greatly admirable there.

We wouldn't be "holding it against her" if it wasn't for the fact that Rowling clearly - from canon and interviews - expects us to laud Ginny. And that the character ends up with her prize, Harry Potter himself.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

It's a pretty sad state of affairs... for the *book*. The *book* defines her by her boyfriends. Does she define herself that way? (Most of us here primarily look at things in-universe, remember.)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Heh, a month ago when I popped in and saw a profusion of 'Watsonian' and 'Doylist' descriptors I had to go to Wikipedia to work out what was being said.

While I think I understand those terms I don't know what you're on about here.

Ginny seems happy to 'be herself', 'never give up' on her crush target, while being very busy making sure she's dating boys.

None of the textual references (from the 'book'???) are contested by Ginny. None of them are in dispute.

???

[oryx_leucoryx]

So Ginny should be shamed for not being a prude?

It's bad characterization that there isn't more to her as far as we know - because what we know is what Harry knows. He wants her, but he can't really love her because he knows nothing about her. What is her favorite subject? What electives did she take? Does she ever talk to anyone besides the trio? (I suppose she sometimes talked to whoever she was dating, and she must have said the word 'yes' or something similar to Neville when he asked her to the Yule Ball.) Does she have any hobbies? Harry has no idea. The only saving grace is that 19 years after the war James Jr is only 12 or 13, so one can imagine Harry and Ginny getting to know one another at some point.

But specifically regarding her love life, my only criticism is where she was using Mike and Dean to become less awkward around Harry, not that she dated them per se.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

So Ginny should be shamed for not being a prude?

I think there could have been some middle ground between 'prude' and girl-who-felt-she-should-be-continuously-dating which a nicer, more interesting, more rounded girl could have occupied, yes.

Being a girl whose primary goal is BOYS BOYS BOYS just isn't very admirable, in my opinion.

my only criticism is where she was using Mike and Dean to become less awkward around Harry, not that she dated them per se.

I didn't want to get into that, but yes, that too. The moment that Ginny tells Harry that she 'never gave up' on him ... that meant that whenever she was kissing Michael, or kissing Dean ... she was hoping that, one day, she'd be kissing Harry. Which ... cheapens ... the amorous activities of the Girl Who Dates even more.

And then Ginny tells us that Hermione's invaluable advice was to 'be herself'. (Okay, no one has ever suggested that Ginny should be in Ravenclaw.) So the amorous activity of the Girl Who Dates was her 'being herself'. The girl 'a lot of boys like'.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Look, I see nothing bad in the number of boyfriends she had (Neville doesn't count, he knew they weren't going as boyfriend and girlfriend), nor the length of interval between them. What is wrong is her motivation, her insincerity. The lack of any other aspects to her reflects badly on Harry (for never getting to know her) rather than on her, because it is his POV.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Yes, this.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Being a girl whose primary goal is BOYS BOYS BOYS just isn't very admirable, in my opinion.

Look, I'm tired of tiptoeing around this: that's a misogynist opinion to hold. It's a misogynist view no matter who is holding the opinion, because it asserts that a woman whose number of relationships and attitude toward sexuality don't neatly fit into a box defined for her by society is inherently tainted or less-than. (And no, when discussing these things in context you can't separate sexuality and 'dating' so neatly as you try to do, but even if you could it wouldn't make your opinion not misogynistic.)

There's valid reason to criticize the way Ginny handles some of her relationships as relationships, yes - when she's using them in an attempt to get at Harry. That would be equally unacceptable if it was Harry doing it to Ginny, Harry doing it to Draco, or Ginny doing it to Luna. It's unacceptable because it reduces the other person to a means, an object, rather than a person. And her characterization is poorly written in that we don't get to *see* other sides of her. But to criticize her simply for the number of relationships she has or how long she goes between relationships is a very traditional way of shaming women rooted in notions of 'purity' and women belonging to men rather than to themselves. If Ginny enjoys being in relationships rather than going it alone, there is nothing inherently wrong or less than admirable in that, as long as she treats her partners as people. But as soon as any given relationship ends, nobody but Ginny has any rightful claim to dictate what she does with her body or who she chooses to date next or when. There's no amount of time that Ginny should have to leave between partners for any reason other than that she did not want to be in a relationship at that moment.

Talking about women's "amorous activities" as if they had exchangable value like money - which is precisely what the word "cheapens" does - is also misogynistic, another classic misogynistic trope in fact. Women's "amorous activities" are not currency or goods up for barter, and she does not owe them to anyone such that she must give them to one person but not another/not too many people. A woman is not a vending machine or a set of sexual/"amorous" goods that are somehow up for sale or exchange. A woman engages in amorous activities for the same reason and with the same rights that a man does: because she enjoys it and her partner is willing. Period. Full stop. The fucking END.

I'm not telling you this just because I'm trying to change your mind, though a part of me hopes you will actually listen and consider what I am saying. I am saying this because I refuse to stand by silently while women get shamed over and over again in exactly the same fucking way as they have been for centuries, and I refuse to be drawn into even passively supporting it through silence just because it's a character I don't particularly like and who fandom loves to hate. I would say the same thing if it was Umbridge being discussed, and she's one of the few characters I despise almost as much as Dumbledore. You are free to hold whatever opinion you want, but be aware exactly what sort of opinion it is.

Tired, stale, misogyny.

[sunnyskywalker]

I'll give you serial and a shocking lack of down time, but frequent? She says she met Michael Corner at the Yule Ball, and they're still dating until near the end of OotP, right? Which is when she starts dating Dean, whom she is still with until April in HBP, nearly a year later. That's two guys in two and a half years - hardly frequent. And the third guy she marries.

A lot of boys may like her, but all that means is that they've noticed her in the Gryffindor common room and the Quidditch pitch making her jokes and whatnot, not that she's been encouraging them all. (Not that some guys can tell the difference. There's always those few who think the fact that you're in public, talking to people and having fun, and not wearing a burlap sack means you're totally coming on to them, and there's those few girls like Pansy who agree, or at least will say they do if they don't like you...) Going to a restaurant with your boyfriend and being obviously affectionate is, again, not exactly noteworthy. Why would she "keep her dalliances private"? Is there some new teenager code I'm unaware of where you not only shouldn't tell anyone you're dating, but make sure never to be seen within three feet of each other in public? And people are very interested that she and Harry are dating? She's one of, what, maybe ten attractive single girls in a three or four year age range when she jumps on Harry? Of course people are watching her. And also watching Harry, super-famous Boy Who Lived who's suddenly gotten very handsome that year, according to Hermione.

I say this as someone who went to a small high school. You know exactly who's dating whom, who's currently single, and who looks like someone you might find interesting even if you aren't consciously paying attention or planning to date, never mind whether a particular person has shown the slightest sign of interest in you.

I think Ginny's changes of partners seems more frequent than it is because that's practically the only time Harry feels a need to point her out to readers. Which is a problem with him and/or JKR's perception of what's important about Ginny, and a serious problem, but it's a different kind of problem.

She does, however, move on very rapidly, which does seem to point to either her deliberately using the guys or to feeling that she always has to be with someone (or both). Which is also a problem.

Rowling could have done something interesting if she'd noticed that in the world she set up, there is a very small pool of eligible future marriage partners and appears to be a lot of societal pressure to marry young, which ought to influence dating patterns, and could very well account for why pureblood, wizard-raised Ginny thinks this way (and why Pansy appears to have tried to latch on to Draco as early as third year, for that matter). She didn't, of course. Nor did it occur to her to figure out whether young wizards might also be concerned about snagging a suitable girl before it was too late and they were left with nothing but girls like Pansy Parkinson or Moaning Myrtle to choose from.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

She does, however, move on very rapidly, which does seem to point to either her deliberately using the guys or to feeling that she always has to be with someone (or both).

Frankly, it could also be that Ginny avoids breaking up with her boyfriends until it's *really* not working out. I don't see enough evidence to show that that's *true*, but I don't think it's ruled out, either.

[sunnyskywalker]

Good point! Didn't Hermione say Dean and Ginny were "rocky for ages"? So she didn't ditch him at the first sign of trouble, at least. So it actually wouldn't be out of character if she and Michael had been drifting apart for a while but she didn't break up with him until it was hopeless. And, Dean being her brother's roommate, a DA member, and around in the common room and at Quidditch games, she'd undoubtedly met him before, so it isn't like she just picked a random guy. He was a guy in the same secret club, someone with similar interests, someone she may have already been friends with.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I'll give you serial and a shocking lack of down time, but frequent?

Including Neville, four boys in three years. More than one a year. That seems frequent to me.

But I guess this is a subjective term. If you decide it's not 'frequent', for you, then fine. This is one of those terms/topics where we won't be able to go to a dictionary and find an objective yardstick.

'Frequency' wasn't my strongest argument anyway. The 'serial and a shocking lack of down time' that you accept were more important. Ginny clearly felt a pressing need to have a boyfriend. She hopped very quickly into another boy's arms once she jettisoned his predecessor.

A lot of boys may like her, but all that means is that they've noticed her -

True. Pansy's quote is more debilitating when it's used to highlight Rowling's desperate and contrived bootstrapping of Ginny into the stratosphere of Hogwarts student society and onto Harry's radar.

Going to a restaurant with your boyfriend and being obviously affectionate is, again, not exactly noteworthy. Why would she "keep her dalliances private"?

Just going to show that Ginny was The Girl Who Dates, and that everyone could see it. The 'Girl Who Dates' tag wouldn't be as much fun to use if only we readers knew of her drive to have boyfriends. :-)

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Including Neville, four boys in three years

Personally, I wouldn't include Neville- they weren't dating, really, they just attended the Yule Ball together. She wasn't romantically interested in him, nor was he interested in her, given she was his second choice! They were just going together as friends and y'know, GoF!Ginny was a time when I actually liked her - because she agreed to accompany a friend as his date and then even when her crush was an option, the boy she's been head-over-heels for over the past couple books, she declined to embarrass Neville. That was pretty admirable to me (I admit, in that situation, I would've been less noble and gone to the person in question and begged them to release me from my agreement so I could go with my love interest!)

It's a shame that girl didn't show up in the later books.

[sunnyskywalker]

Everyone could see any of the couples in Madame Puddifoot's. There is absolutely nothing unusual or exhibitionist about any of them. And all we ever really knew about Michael Corner is that he dated Ginny. That doesn't make him The Boy Who Dates.

The difference is that Harry isn't paying attention to those other couples. Harry only pays attention when Ginny is involved in something date-related - or, eventually, Quidditch. This doesn't say anything good about Harry.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Rowling's portrayal of romantic love is just horrible; almost the only paint she has to draw it is jealousy-green

Ugh, sad but true. None of the canon ships are well-done at all. The only one that seemed believable to me was Harry/Cho, I mean, his crush on her was subtle by comparison and written very realistically!

Of course, then she's written as succumbing to jealousy and being unreasonable and Harry being the long-suffering martyr for dealing with her silly feminine sentimentality and illogical tears. *eyeroll*

Btw, curious what your thoughts are on Hermione and McLaggen? If Ginny's a slut for using boys to while away the time til Harry realizes her awesomeness and cements her status as One True Love Interest, what about Hermione wrt shamelessly manipulating McLaggen? It's not enough that she uses mind-control on him to boost Ron's chances of making the team, but now she plays with his mind in a less literal way for the sole purpose of making Ron jealous? Yikes...

Randomly, Ginny's behavior reminds me a bit of Draco's- the sneering putdowns, the hexing of those inferior to her, the casual arrogance...I wonder if JKR discovered the popularity of HP/DM in fandom and after being horrified, took some notes and replicated that dynamic for HP/GW.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

"Btw, curious what your thoughts are on Hermione and McLaggen? If Ginny's a slut for using boys to while away the time til Harry realizes her awesomeness and cements her status as One True Love Interest, what about Hermione wrt shamelessly manipulating McLaggen? It's not enough that she uses mind-control on him to boost Ron's chances of making the team, but now she plays with his mind in a less literal way for the sole purpose of making Ron jealous? Yikes..."

I agree! I was appalled at Hermione all the way through HBP! Not just over McLaggen, but also Marietta! The 'snitch' zits were bad enough, but for them to still be there!?! And then sending the birds at Ron as well. Sorry, for me, those birds should have told Ron to stay far, far away from a relationship with Hermione.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Book 6 is where it all goes downhill for me. I used to love Hermione, but that was when the character assassination became too much for me to ignore. What she did to Marietta was bad enough in book 5, but yeah, the fact the girl's still facially disfigured in the following year... >_<

Ugh, those bloody birds! I want movie canon to wipe away my memory of book canon, but even so, conjuring a flock of birds that violently hurl themselves towards Ron and then smash into the wall near his head...that's scary and downright abusive. It's worse in the books with Ron still bearing cuts from her attack weeks later! True Love means never having to apologize for physical abuse if your feelings are bruised! *headdeskwallfloor* Combined with Hermione's attack on him in DH, well...troubling pattern being established here. (again, movie canon improves on book with that scene being more humorous and less violent than what was on the page)

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/Of course, then she's written as succumbing to jealousy and being unreasonable and Harry being the long-suffering martyr for dealing with her silly feminine sentimentality and illogical tears./

Even though Cho was treated positively before. In GoF, she gently turned Harry down when he asked her to the Yule Ball (she didn’t laugh at him or sneer at him), she notably *didn’t* wear a “Potter Stinks” badge, and, on the whole, didn’t seem to believe any of the rumors that Harry had sneaked his way into the tournament. Then, all of a sudden, she’s portrayed negatively for crying and becomes jealous of Hermione for no reason.

But yes, way to avoid the issue. Don’t actually make Cho justified in being angry that Harry’s friend cursed her friend. No, just make it all due to jealousy of Hermione. That way, Harry doesn’t have to face the fact that Cho is right and that he’s friends with somebody who did something so awful.

/Btw, curious what your thoughts are on Hermione and McLaggen? If Ginny's a slut for using boys to while away the time til Harry realizes her awesomeness and cements her status as One True Love Interest, what about Hermione wrt shamelessly manipulating McLaggen? It's not enough that she uses mind-control on him to boost Ron's chances of making the team, but now she plays with his mind in a less literal way for the sole purpose of making Ron jealous?/

That’s a good point. It’s interesting that the fandom in general *didn’t* call Hermione demeaning insults because of that, even though one would argue that that behavior was worse than Ginny’s because it *was* explicitly stated that Hermione was only manipulating McLaggen and didn’t even like him.

/I wonder if JKR discovered the popularity of HP/DM in fandom and after being horrified, took some notes and replicated that dynamic for HP/GW./

Ha, I never thought of that! But then again, some people have argued that the reason why Draco has such a larger role in HBP and why Harry is suddenly so obsessed with him was because JKR was sticking it to the Harry/Draco fans or was trying to emulate certain tropes in Harry/Draco fanfiction because she thought that that would appeal to some of her fans.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Btw, curious what your thoughts are on Hermione and McLaggen?

I've forgotten the details; does Hermione actually *admit* to 'using' McLaggen to get back at Ron? To Harry? Or is it only in the film?

I have the dim recollection that she does admit to that ... or that it's obvious that that's what she's doing. You might care to remind me of the canon facts? In any case, if that's her motivation, then yes, that's part of the whole 'juvenile games of puerile jealousy' package that I detested in HBP.

Rowling might only know of one way to write adolescent 'romance' - and she might find such games of jealousy and spite entertaining - but I for one found it to be pretty miserable reading.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Yes she does. She considered inviting Zacharias Smith, but decided Cormac would irk Ron more.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Okay, thanks.

Then yes, that's part of the whole 'juvenile games of puerile jealousy' package that I detested in HBP. :-)