[identity profile] oneandthetruth.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] deathtocapslock

Harry seems to be suffering from PTSD at the beginning of this chapter: As he looks at Dobby’s body, he flashes back to kneeling beside Dumbledore’s body at the foot of the Astronomy Tower. That seems a little odd, given the differences in manner of death as well as size, color, and species of the corpses, not to mention that Dobby’s body has to be in much better shape than Dumbledore’s was. You’d think Harry would be reminded of Cedric’s body, since he was killed cleanly and left an intact corpse. But of course, Harry didn’t love Cedric the way he did Dobby and Dumbledore, so I guess that’s why he’s not associating them.

Harry calls for Dobby, “even though he knew that the elf had gone where he could not call him back.” Um, actually, you can, Harry; you just aren’t able to yet.

Bill, Fleur, Dean, and Luna gather around him. Harry asks how Hermione is, and Bill tells him Ron has taken her inside, and she’ll be all right. She’s the hero’s close friend, so she has to be all right, but she really shouldn’t. She was slashed up repeatedly by Bella, Crucioed, and had a large, glass light fixture fall on her from a great height. (You know the ceilings in Malfoy Manor have to be at least 12 feet/3.66 meters high, and probably more.) I’m certainly not an expert in emergency medicine, but it seems to me that just the weight of the chandelier should have broken quite a few bones and crushed some internal organs. The large quantity of broken glass also should have made her hemorrhage, given that she was already cut up from Bella’s knife.

Damn! Rowling had a perfect chance to kill off one of the Trio, but she didn’t take it! That sucks!

Somebody else who should be dead is Griphook. He was already in bad shape when they got to the Manor, and he’s smaller than Hermione. Being crushed by the large light fixture should definitely have killed him. Of course, he can’t be dead, either, because he’s needed for infodumping later in this chapter.

I know a lot of people hate Dobby and Hagrid, and I can understand why. They’re both so over-the-top, it’s easy to get too much of them both. But I’ve always liked them in small doses.

However, Harry never seemed to care that much for Dobby, so I don’t get why--again--we’re being treated to Harry’s angsting over the death of a minor character, which goes on for almost five pages. We’re supposed to believe Harry’s suffering is entirely due to his intense grief--”though Dumbledore, of course, would have said that it was love....” Well, yeah, one does tend to feel grief when someone one loves dies. The description of Harry’s feelings as he digs the elf’s grave is actually very authentic; I’ve dug enough graves to recognize and empathize with his emotions. I just don’t believe Harry feels this kind of grief for Dobby.

What does make sense is the guilt Harry feels because Dobby died saving him. Harry’s insistence on doing the hard work of digging the grave by hand and by himself is his way of paying tribute to and paying back the elf in the only way he can. The book admits as much, saying, “...every drop of his sweat and every blister felt like a gift to the elf who had saved their lives.” I don’t know why Harry can’t just admit feeling survivor’s guilt, instead of pretending it’s grief and love. Well, actually I do. None of Rowling’s self-inserts can feel appropriate guilt because that would be to admit they had actually done something wrong (in most cases, though not in this one). Narcissists admit wrongdoing only in extremis, and psychopaths never at all.

What Harry’s inappropriate grief seems like is more of Rowling’s telling rather than showing: “See? See! Harry is so capable of deep love and loyalty! He’s all broken up over the death of somebody he didn’t know well or even like that much. Only a person who’s really deep and compassionate is capable of such suffering.”

It’s been mentioned by others that Harry loves best those who aren’t around him. When people are present, he’s unpleasant or indifferent to them. That must indicate some kind of psychopathology, but I don’t know what kind. Ms. Rowling must be a very hard woman to live with if she is this emotionally confused herself.

As I was rereading this installment prior to posting it, I remembered something a commentator wrote about Beethoven: He got along best with people when they weren’t around him. When I was in college, I did a directed study one summer attempting to prove (I think successfully) that Beethoven had a Borderline Personality Disorder. So I started wondering: Does Harry have one, too?

This sporking is already book length (225 pages and growing), so I’m not going to explore that topic in detail here. I don’t have the canon knowledge necessary to make a thorough case, anyway. However, I did look up the symptoms of BPD (on psychcentral.com), and they certainly sound a lot like Harry. To qualify, he has to have a majority of the symptoms listed below across time and in a variety of contexts. Here they are:

* Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment

* A pattern of unstable and intense interpersonal relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation

* Identity disturbance, such as a significant and persistent unstable self-image or sense of self

* Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g., spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating)

* Recurrent suicidal behavior, gestures, or threats, or self-mutilating behavior

* Emotional instability due to significant reactivity of mood (e.g., intense episodic dysphoria, irritability, or anxiety usually lasting a few hours and only rarely more than a few days)

* Chronic feelings of emptiness

* Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger (e.g., frequent displays of temper, constant anger, recurrent physical fights)

* Transient, stress-related paranoid thoughts or severe dissociative symptoms

Yeah, that sounds very Harryish. Sweettalkeress’s HP abridged series is doing a great job of illustrating certain symptoms, such as the identity disturbance (entitled hero vs. tortured martyr), emotional instability, empty feelings, and anger problems. We’ll see the transient dissociation aspect in chapter 34. Harry also comes from the kind of abusive, neglectful background that produces personality disorders of all kinds.

In fairness to Harry, it’s common for teenagers to have fluid identities and behave erratically. That’s not even to consider the tremendous pressure he’s under, with his whole society screaming, “KILL VOLDEMORT! SAVE US ALL! ONLY YOU CAN SAVE US!” That’s far too much pressure to put on anyone, let alone a messed-up kid from an abusive and neglectful background.

Back to the story:

Something good came out of the Mash Up at Malfoy Manor: Harry recommits himself to the Horcrux hunt and is no longer entranced by the Hallows. “...[H]e no longer burned with that weird, obsessive longing. Loss and fear had snuffed it out: He felt as though he had been slapped awake again.” I’m glad somebody slapped you awake, Harry. I’ve been wanting to do that for ages.

After the grave is dug, everybody except Griphook and Ollivander (who are apparently too badly injured) comes out for the burial. Luna again proves herself the most spiritual character in the series as she says some lovely words of thanks and tribute, then Bill uses magic to fill the grave with dirt. I thought Harry would want to do that, too, but apparently not. Or rather, apparently Rowling has finished with the character development and Voldie-vision Harry experienced while he dug, so she can now get on with the plot. However, Harry does tarry long enough to find a rock and use his wand to carve a grave marker.

Now that Rowling has established (to her own satisfaction, at least) that Harry is a fount of love and compassion, he can return to normal, i.e., being a selfish jerk. He demands to see Griphook and Ollivander, and tough luck if they’re not up to his questioning right now. Of course, this is presented as being manly, take-charge behavior on Harry’s part, but it’s really overbearing selfishness and impatience. It’s not as if he’ll be acting on their information until Hermione is ready to leave, and that won’t be for a few days at least. (In fact, it’s not until early May, as we find out in chapter 26. That’s at least five weeks away, and probably longer. The lengthy recuperation required by Hermione and Griphook, even with the assistance of magic, are further evidence they should be dead.)

While the commandant is waiting for the prisoners to be prepared for interrogation, I mean, the hero is waiting for his fellow guests to get ready for his gentle information-gathering, Harry muses again over who sent Dobby and is convinced it was Dumbledead. He doesn’t know how that worked, except that his idol once told him, “Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it.”

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Tell that to Severus Snape! Tell that to all the victims of the James gang! Tell that to Moaning Myrtle and Rubeus Hagrid! Tell that to all the anonymous victims of bullies and administration favorites over the decades, no, centuries, because you just know Albus Dumbledore, as much as he sucked, can’t have been the only Hogwarts head who let his pets do whatever the hell they wanted without punishment. That sentence should read, “Help will always be given at Hogwarts to those who ask for it, IF the school officials feel like giving it, and they aren’t overruled by their superiors.”

For some bizarre reason, Bill removes Griphook from the guest bedroom and lays him on his and Fleur’s own bed for the questioning. Way to screw up your marriage in the first year, there, Bill. I sure wouldn’t approve of that, and Fleur seems more fastidious than I am. Harry apologizes to Griphook for disturbing him and asks about his health; this proves Harry learned something from Dumbledore, i.e., insincere concern for others.

Griphook remarks on how unusual it was for Harry to dig a grave for an elf and rescue a goblin. He acts as if Harry were, maybe not the Jesus of this story, but certainly the Gandhi. Maybe my standards are too high, but I see what Harry did as the minimum he owed to decency. It’s a mark of how warped are the morals of both this book and the Potterverse in general that Harry’s minimally honorable behavior is treated as a sign of his extraordinary compassion and goodness. It’s also a mark of just how screwed up are wizard-every-other-species-on-the-planet relations that everybody seems to agree with this view.

Harry tells Griphook he wants to break into the Lestranges’s vault at Gringotts, and Griphook says he’ll think about helping him.

Hermione does something she should have done years ago when she calls herself a mudblood and says she’s proud of it. I’ve thought since I first read these books that someone should have started a mudblood pride movement at Hogwarts. They could have T-shirts and sweatshirts that say, “Mudblood Pride,” “My Muddy Blood Is Richer than Your Pure Blood,” and “Say It Out Loud! Mudblood and Proud!” You can’t insult somebody if they refuse to be insulted.

For once Harry is allowed to figure out something before Hermione when he tells her and Ron he thinks there’s a Horcrux in Bella’s vault, and that’s why he wants in it.

After finishing with Griphoook, Harry continues his questioning with Ollivander. Keep this fact in mind as you read about Harry’s conversation with the wand maker: Ever since his holly wand broke, Harry has blamed his inability to perform magic effectively on the replacement wands he’s been using, first Hermione’s, then the captured wand Ron gave him.

First Harry asks if his wand can be fixed and is told ‘no.’ Ollivander tells Harry, “...[I]f you are any wizard at all, you will be able to channel your magic through almost any instrument.” Take that, Harry! This is Rowling admitting Harry sucks as a wizard!

Harry also asks why his holly wand broke Voldy’s borrowed wand during their dogfight. It seems Voldy had been told by Ollivander that his and Harry’s wands had twin cores, so Voldy used a different wand because he didn’t want a repeat of the GoF graveyard battle, when the wands nullified each other. Ollivander says, “I had...never heard of such a thing. Your wand performed something unique that night. The connection of the twin cores is incredibly rare, yet why your wand should have snapped the borrowed wand, I do not know....” (Ellipses in original)

*frantically waves hand in the air like Hermione* I know! I know! Call on me, teacher! PLEASE!

Harry’s wand has to think for and protect him because he’s too stupid and incompetent to think for and protect himself! Ollivander’s the expert, and he just admitted it. He said any halfway decent wizard can perform magic with almost any wand. The reason Harry could only work with the holly wand is because of the phoenix feather core it shares with Voldemort’s wand. That is, it wasn’t Harry doing the magic with Harry’s wand! It was the Voldemort soul piece!

Once Harry was forced to use wands that didn’t have that core, the soul piece couldn’t do the work for Harry any more. He was forced to rely on his own magical powers and competence, which are clearly minimal. This is proven by his inability to do effective magic with any other wand.

It’s also proven by an incident from PS/SS. Remember when Harry was being chased by bullies and inexplicably found himself on top of the shed roof? That was the soul piece allowing him to fly like Voldy. Lily could slow her descent from a height, as if she had an invisible parachute, but that is not the same as flying, and we have no evidence she could fly. Only Voldemort and Snape fly without assistance!

The evidence is overwhelming that I am right. How many spells can Harry do effectively? Expelliarmus, Expecto Patronum, Protego--that’s it. Even as a young adult, he is incapable of doing the basic healing or cleaning spells a young child should have down pat before going to Hogwarts. Of course, we’re told the Patronus spell is difficult and advanced, but who told us that? Remus Lupin, friend of Harry’s father, sycophant, and notorious liar, particularly when it comes to flattering Harry. Recall Lupin also said Snape didn’t like James because Snape was envious of Potter Sr.’s Quidditch prowess, and we know that was a lie. Given this evidence, anything Lupin says that cannot be confirmed by an independent source, especially regarding the Potters, should be dismissed out of hand.

True, Hermione has trouble with the Patronus spell, and she’s super-competent. Doesn’t that prove it’s a very difficult spell? Not at all. To take an example from a different field, Ludwig van Beethoven was a virtuoso organist, the greatest pianist of his day, one of the greatest pianists in history, and probably the greatest improvisational musician ever. But he was only a decent violinist. Everybody has areas of weakness, no matter how good they are overall.

In addition, Hermione is very gullible where authority figures are concerned. If a teacher tells her, “The Patronus is a very difficult, advanced spell that many people can’t ever master,” she’ll believe that, which may create a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A couple of years ago, another DTCL member and I facetiously suggested Harry was less intelligent than his wand. We didn’t know we were right. It rarely happens, but this is an occasion when I would have preferred to be wrong.

Ollivander also confirms the existence of the Elder Wand, but says he doesn’t know if it has to be captured by murder, or if it can be won by other means. Harry then asks about the Deathly Hallows, but the wand maker has never heard of them. At least, that’s what he claims. Since the Deathstick is part of the set of Hallows, I find it unbelievable that any wand expert has never heard of the rest of the set.

The main point of this conversation is to introduce that “wand mastery” BS that so warped the story and infuriated the independent-minded parts of the fandom. It is completely unnecessary: Harry had defeated Voldemort before with his regular wand--and the graveyard battle at the end of Goblet of Fire is far more interesting and exciting than the contrived silliness of their final showdown at the end of Deathly Booby Prizes.

It is essential to remember that Rowling didn’t work this “wand mastery” garbage into the story until the final book--and two-thirds of the way through the final book, at that. If it had been important, it would have been brought up and built up far sooner, e.g., the way Harry’s painful scar was. The real reason for the “wand mastery” nonsense is to give Rowling an excuse to kill Snape. It serves no other purpose!

After finishing with Ollivander, Harry goes outside with Ron and Hermione. He tells them the conclusions about the Elder Wand he’s gleaned from his Voldie-visions and Ollivander’s information. He’s realized that Gridelwald was the hot blonde who stole the EW from Gregorovitch, and that when Dumbledore defeated his ex, he became the wand’s owner.

Just then, Harry has another convenient Voldie-vision. He sees Voldy arrive at Hogwarts and wait at the gates for Snape to let him in. I don’t understand this. Since the Dull Lord has taken over the school, shouldn’t he be able to get in by himself? Since he can fly, why doesn’t he just fly over the walls? That’s what he does later during the final battle. More arbitrary nonsense.

Anyway, the DL sends Snape back to the school, promising to meet him later. Then he goes to Dumbledore’s tomb and breaks it open. Carrying on magical society’s liking for traditions that have been abandoned by non-magical society, the body is wrapped in a shroud. “The face was translucent, pale, sunken, yet almost perfectly preserved.”

Hmmm. I wonder if his body smelled like flowers? In an episode of The X-Files, a man died, but several days after his death, his body had not begun to decompose and smelled like flowers. Scully, who was raised Catholic, says in Catholic doctrine there are people called “incorruptibles,” saints whose bodies do not decompose, and that smell faintly like flowers. I’m really sorry Rowling did not include that nauseating little detail to make her Dumbledore worship just that bit more offensive. On the other hand, if mary_j_59 is right, and Snape is a saint, that bodes well for anybody who wants to resurrect him.

After thinking contemptuously about Dumbledore, Voldy takes the EW from the corpse’s fingers. The last sentence of this chapter is actually very good: “The spiderlike hand swooped and pulled the wand from Dumbledore’s grasp, and as he took it, a shower of sparks flew from its tip, sparkling over the corpse of its last owner, ready to serve a new master at last.”

Date: 2014-01-19 10:41 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Did Harry become the master of Voldemort's wand in the graveyard? Or did Harry become the master of all of Voldemort's wands after the 7P battle?

Did Sirius become the master of Severus' wand after POA?

Date: 2014-01-19 10:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hwyla.livejournal.com
Snape's wand in PoA would probably stay with him. It was the kids that hit him with Expelliarmus - not Sirius. And since he wasn't actually fighting them I don't think one could say they 'won' it from him. But if anyone did, then it would be shared between the 3 kids.

It's such a silly distinction in that practicing for school or the DA apparently doesn't count. But if stealing or snatching the wand from the wizard counts - like in DH for Harry grabbing ANY wand from Draco or Gellert actually stealing the Elder Wand - then Harry lost his wand to BartyJr at the Quidditch World Cup when he stole it out of Harry's back pocket!
Edited Date: 2014-01-19 11:03 pm (UTC)

Date: 2014-01-19 11:32 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
I'd say using a wizard's own wand against him is a form of defeat.

Oh, yes. So Barty owns Harry's wand - that must have helped getting Harry through the tasks! So was it Barty's lost soul operating Harry's wand in the 7P battle?

Date: 2014-01-20 12:59 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
BTW, and completely off topic: Via Googling I saw you were discussing Pottermore on HPN. Are you a Pottermore participant? Can you please say if there were any GOF revelations? (Perhaps post to the thread I started a while back?) I understand there is some info on the other schools?

Date: 2014-01-20 04:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hwyla.livejournal.com
I'm not on Pottermore. I get most of my info on it from the folks on HPN discussing what the additional stuff means.

You are more than welcome to come over and discuss (or ask) over there. We don't have anywhere the traffic we once did. It has occasionally been questioned by some of our newer members whether any of you might be interested.

At the moment, we've been sighing over the 'see no difference scene', where we are basically told that it happened one way when the canon left it open to interpretation. For the other schools, I only know there was something about Flamel having gone to Beauxbatons and Durmstrang teaching 'martial' magic.
Edited Date: 2014-01-20 04:05 am (UTC)

Date: 2014-01-21 10:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] maidofkent.livejournal.com
So far, there have been three new pieces of information 'from J K Rowling', on Beauxbatons, Durmstrang and the Daily Prophet, none of which are particularly exciting.

We are told that Beauxbatons is in the Pyrenees, has a mainly French intake, with a smaller intake from the Iberian peninsula, and the Low Countries. The Flamels met at Beauxbatons and gifted it with a healing fountain.

Durmstrang's location is hidden and memory charms are used on all visitors. it was founded by a Bulgarian witch. It has had two dubious headmasters in its history (only two?). One was the second Head, Harfang Munter, who established the school's reputation for duelling and martial arts, (not sure why that's dubious) and the other was, of course, Karkaroff. Many parents withdrew children during his period of office. Nothing is said about teaching of the Dark Arts, and whether this was always part of the curriculum, or only took place under Igor; all that is said about Igor's time is that he 'encouraged a culture of fear and intimidation' (thank goodness there was nothing of that at Hogwarts).

It is said in passing that there are twelve wizarding schools - i assume this is world-wide.

The Prophet - we are told that as a 'small, sometimes beleaguered' community, the WW likes parochial news, and doesn't seek political variety in its media (The Prophet is the only large-circulation periodical). That confirms the general view of the WW gleaned from the books. It is also said that whereas Muggles have turned to the internet, wizards seem likely to prefer print for the foreseeable future, and perhaps Muggle papers would do better with moving photos (a joke - I hope).

Date: 2014-01-21 10:47 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] maidofkent.livejournal.com
Just adding that the 'see no difference ' bit mentioned by Hwyla was in the chapter summary, not the new writing by JKR, so presumably does not come from her.

Date: 2014-01-22 01:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hwyla.livejournal.com
Thanks! That's a bit of a relief, since the summary apparently seems to say that Ron & Harry got detention for their roles when the Slytherins didn't - failing to mention that Harry & Ron REALLY got their detentions for cussing out a teacher, not for cursing (with a hex, not words) Goyle.

And of course, that Snape was insulting Hermione's appearance, even tho' he never does anything of the sort to anyone else (or even her) anywhere else in the entire series - making him entirely out of character.

Snape does not even do so when he has Peter at his disposal, in his own home. Someone whose appearance offers considerably more opportunities for insults than Hermione's. I can't believe Snape only controls his wish to insult Peter's looks solely because Peter might go whine to Voldy about it. Voldy would blast Peter for being such a crybaby.

Snape is quite sarcastic and insulting at times, but it always seems to be about abilities and/or character.

Date: 2014-01-22 04:41 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
I have since found the wiki of all things Pottermore, and have posted a summary with links to the new GOF stuff. So if anyone wants to discuss any of it we can do so there.

Date: 2014-01-20 02:37 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] terri-testing.livejournal.com
Actually, the new and improved wandlore plays perfectly into an evil!Lupin scenario. Remember in PoA in the Shrieking Shack, when Lupin won the children’s trust by giving them back their wands…? See, he knew that it was safe to do so because their wands would forevermore answer to him, and so they couldn’t harm him or cast anything against his will. But the kids didn’t know that, so they thought the gesture established Lupin’s trustworthiness and good intentions.

If so, the irony is right up there with Harry’s heatedly assuring Snape in the same scene that he knew Lupin could be trusted because, “Professor Lupin could have killed me about a hundred times this year... I’ve been alone with him loads of times, having defense lessons against the Dementors. If he was helping Black, why didn’t he just finish me off then?”

Yep, Harry, you can absolutely count on the fact that a Death Eater would never refrain from attacking you at the first possible opportunity. Anyone giving you privileged treatment, special lessons, and kindly advice must clearly be the Harry-fan you take him for, rather than a Voldemort-supporter cleverly setting you up for one of the Dark Lord’s schemes….

How’d that trust work out for you the following year with Barty?

Date: 2014-01-20 07:52 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Hmm. So Remus owns the trio's wands. The trio owns Severus' wand, but he may have found Gilderoy's wand (which Harry tossed outside the DADA office's window), which he now controls. Or perhaps Harry controls that one too, after disarming Gilderoy?

Date: 2014-01-20 09:28 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dorea-ysleen.livejournal.com
I don't think Harry disarming Gilderoy would have made a difference, since that happened AFTER Snape disarmed Gilderoy. But after disarming Snape in the Shack, the trio should now be masters of both Snape's and Gilderoy's wands. Right?

Personally I choose to believe that it's only the elder wand that's so finicky. Death himself made it to get the oldest brother and all successive owners, after all, so it would make sense for it to be unique in that way. All other wands seem to choose their master and stay loyal to them, though they may also work for others to varying degrees, maybe depending on how the new user got them, but also and probably more importantly intent, the relationship between the owner and user, personality, magic etc.

Edited Date: 2014-01-20 09:30 am (UTC)

Date: 2014-01-20 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hwyla.livejournal.com
But then why would Harry be the Elder Wand's master if he isn't master of all of Draco's wands? It wasn't the Elder Wand that Harry physically took from Draco. And then it's all convoluted by whether or not Draco actually just let go, as has been speculated. Presumably, he didn't. Or the Wand would not transfer.

But I also wonder about that very strange bit in 7 Potters, where Voldy is using Lucius' wand. That's related to wand ownership and I don't know whether one could say Voldy 'defeated' Lucius for it. He didn't fight him for it. But Lucius' attitude IS defeated. So I'm not positive a wand must even be stolen or won physically/magically. Intimidating someone into giving up their wand seems to also work somehow? So perhaps if Draco did 'let go' he's admitting defeat because he wants Harry to win - hates Voldy?

And does this concept of wand stealing have something to do with the idea that muggleborns somehow 'stole' magic?
Edited Date: 2014-01-20 01:15 pm (UTC)

Date: 2014-01-20 02:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] maidofkent.livejournal.com
In response to your first question, I think the situation envisaged by dorea ysleen is this:

Draco is Master of the Elder Wand. Harry snatches Draco's hawthorn wand, and becomes its master, because and only because of Draco's mastery of the Elder Wand. Only the Elder Wand wants to and/or can transfer mastery when its owner is 'defeated' (by whatever method), and once someone is Master, an overcoming of any wand they hold transfers mastery of that wand and the Elder Wand.

Taking the wand of/overcoming anyone who is not Master of the Elder Wand does not transfer mastery of that wand to the victor, because a normal wand does not change allegiance in that way.

Date: 2014-01-20 07:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dorea-ysleen.livejournal.com

That's what I meant, basically, yes, though I'm not quite decided on the mastery of Draco's wand. The elder wand knows its current master has been defeated and changes allegiance accordingly, and that' probably also part of why hawthorn wand works for Harry, but it's not impossible that another reason is that at that point Draco wants Voldemort finished just as much - sort of how Hermione's borrowed wand works for Harry without abandoning her.

Date: 2014-01-20 07:35 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Not really. We do not know why some wands feel better or worse to some people. My take is Ollivander was lying, the wand-defeat rule applies only to the Elder Wand, and some wands feel better or worse because of similarity or lack thereof in the style of people's magic. I think Ollivander wanted Harry to know about the Elder-Wand's rules, was ashamed of himself for cracking and giving Tom info that led him to the Elder Wand and was using the situation at hand as an opportunity to work in the missing info. Misleading the trio about other wands was insignificant, as they now all had wands that worked.

Though I agree with you that Rowling somehow expects it to work for other wands as well, in contrast with multiple events in COS, POA, and GOF at the very least that contradict the new info.

Date: 2014-01-20 07:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dorea-ysleen.livejournal.com

I'd forgotten about that, thanks. Maybe that's what JKR wanted us to believe, but I don't think that's necessarily true. Harry is also often wrong, and according to JKR, Hermione often speaks for her. I think it's up to the reader which character he trusts more.

I agree that a big reason for this new piece of wandlore is JKR's need to kill Snape, though I don't see why it was necessary for that - he was a spy and the middle of a battle, there were lots of ways and reasons to kill him without making up something new. I think an even bigger reason is that this way, Harry ends up as the master of the wand Voldemort tries to use against him, which decides the final battle in Harry's favour without Harry having to actually kill Voldemort himself.

Date: 2014-01-20 09:29 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Well, she didn't just need to kill Severus, but to kill him so that he can communicate with Harry and give him the memories, yet without Harry knowing his allegiance before actually seeing the memories. So he can't be exposed as a spy until later, nor can he die by AK.

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