11 Magical Schools
Feb. 1st, 2014 07:29 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslockThe recent Pottermore blurb about Durmstrang says, "Durmstrang once had the darkest reputation of all eleven wizarding schools, though this was never entirely merited." IOW there are 11 wizarding schools worldwide. I find this number surprisingly small, considering that the magical population served by Hogwarts comes from a population of roughly 64 million (UK) plus 4.7 million (Ireland) totaling some 69 million, out of a global population of about 7 billion, so just under 1%. I was expecting there to be several dozens of schools, not fewer than one dozen. (Yes, we only knew about 2 other schools in Europe, but surely those were merely the oldest ones, and additional schools could have been founded over the centuries?)
So how do we reconcile these?
If the proportion of magical to non-magical people in the UK is typical, then one possibility is that other schools have about 10 times the student body of Hogwarts, supporting the impression some readers here have of Hogwarts as a magical backwater.
Alternatively, it is possible that some parts of the world do not use wizarding schools as the way to pass on magical education. It is possible that some areas rely on home-education, private tutors serving improvised small groups of children, or apprenticeships with locally famous wizards. Perhaps some traditional societies still have magical folk living openly within the local non-magical community, with no requirement for separate education, just specific training in magic with a local adult wizard on top of whatever education is typically available in that community.
Or perhaps the UK and Ireland have an exceptionally high proportion of magical folk, and there really aren't all that many wizards in the world. Or other wizarding communities don't make an effort to include every magical child in their educational system as Hogwarts does with the quill. We are told (by Draco) that Durmstrang doesn't educate Muggleborns. Perhaps anyone who doesn't have parents that know about the magical school or whose parents don't make an effort to get their child into the magical school doesn't learn there. Not only Muggleborns, but also orphans like Tom Riddle (or only orphaned of their magical parent, like Dean), children of parents who didn't like the school or disagree with how it is run, children of neglectful parents, children of parents who lack the means to provide transportation, and so forth. In this case, there may be many undiscovered wizards within non-magical society, while the magical society outside of the UK and Ireland would be significantly more inbred.
What is your preferred scenario?
Also, where do you think these schools should be located?
In this blog post Andrew claims:
However, Goblet of Fire does also briefly mention an unnamed Brazilian wizarding school, where Bill Weasley once had a pen pal. In Wonderbook: Book of Potions, which also includes new content written by J.K. Rowling (as both Book of Spells and Book of Potions were created through an extension of Sony’s “Pottermore partnership” with Rowling), we also learn of a wizarding school in Japan named the “Mahoutokoro School of Magic” (see the Harry Potter Wikia), as well as one in Russia and another in South Africa, the names of which I was not quite able to catch while playing this game.
If we accept the details then the Russian school may be a 4th European school, or it may be somewhere in Siberia. IMO there should be more Asian schools, maybe in Tibet or Nepal, serving wizards from China, India and other parts of eastern and southern Asia. Then there should be a school serving wizards from the Middle East and northern Africa, perhaps with connections to the alchemy center in Alexandria. No Quidditch in this school, but they may race flying carpets. Probably 2 schools in the Americas?
Any thoughts?
So how do we reconcile these?
If the proportion of magical to non-magical people in the UK is typical, then one possibility is that other schools have about 10 times the student body of Hogwarts, supporting the impression some readers here have of Hogwarts as a magical backwater.
Alternatively, it is possible that some parts of the world do not use wizarding schools as the way to pass on magical education. It is possible that some areas rely on home-education, private tutors serving improvised small groups of children, or apprenticeships with locally famous wizards. Perhaps some traditional societies still have magical folk living openly within the local non-magical community, with no requirement for separate education, just specific training in magic with a local adult wizard on top of whatever education is typically available in that community.
Or perhaps the UK and Ireland have an exceptionally high proportion of magical folk, and there really aren't all that many wizards in the world. Or other wizarding communities don't make an effort to include every magical child in their educational system as Hogwarts does with the quill. We are told (by Draco) that Durmstrang doesn't educate Muggleborns. Perhaps anyone who doesn't have parents that know about the magical school or whose parents don't make an effort to get their child into the magical school doesn't learn there. Not only Muggleborns, but also orphans like Tom Riddle (or only orphaned of their magical parent, like Dean), children of parents who didn't like the school or disagree with how it is run, children of neglectful parents, children of parents who lack the means to provide transportation, and so forth. In this case, there may be many undiscovered wizards within non-magical society, while the magical society outside of the UK and Ireland would be significantly more inbred.
What is your preferred scenario?
Also, where do you think these schools should be located?
In this blog post Andrew claims:
However, Goblet of Fire does also briefly mention an unnamed Brazilian wizarding school, where Bill Weasley once had a pen pal. In Wonderbook: Book of Potions, which also includes new content written by J.K. Rowling (as both Book of Spells and Book of Potions were created through an extension of Sony’s “Pottermore partnership” with Rowling), we also learn of a wizarding school in Japan named the “Mahoutokoro School of Magic” (see the Harry Potter Wikia), as well as one in Russia and another in South Africa, the names of which I was not quite able to catch while playing this game.
If we accept the details then the Russian school may be a 4th European school, or it may be somewhere in Siberia. IMO there should be more Asian schools, maybe in Tibet or Nepal, serving wizards from China, India and other parts of eastern and southern Asia. Then there should be a school serving wizards from the Middle East and northern Africa, perhaps with connections to the alchemy center in Alexandria. No Quidditch in this school, but they may race flying carpets. Probably 2 schools in the Americas?
Any thoughts?
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no subject
Date: 2014-02-03 01:43 am (UTC)www(dot)redhen-publications(dot)com/wizpopulation(dot)html
Her *claim* that there are some 3000 witches and wizards in the UK is nonsense. It is even greater nonsense if we accept her claim that there are 600 students at Hogwarts. But then we know that Rowling has no sense of proportion.
Although, if the magical population of Great Britain *is* as low as 3000 it would explain how Albus Dumbledore ended up with all those honors and ceremonial offices. A population of 3000 doesn't give you much of a "talented tenth" to parcel out all of the leadership positions *to* does it?
But in any event, unless Great Britain's magical population is vastly higher or lower than that of the rest of the world, I ended up extrapolating a worldwide magical population of something under half a million (something like 320,000). Of whom those of school age would be a mere seven 1-year cohorts within an extrapolated age range of 0-120.
It still comes to more than 11 schools of the size that Rowling claims Hogwarts to be and never actually showed us.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-03 02:38 pm (UTC)I love the flying carpet racing :)
no subject
Date: 2014-02-03 09:24 pm (UTC)And the teacher being magical isn't something that is going to make a difference considering the actual demands. Not unless anyone who teaches is required to use a time-turner and burn themselves out in the process.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-03 10:57 pm (UTC)If the T.A.s were never really in the classroom proper, nor given pride of place with the main staff in the dining hall, Harry could easily never have noticed them (nor is he curious or empathetic enough to wonder how his teachers deal with so many students without the issue being shoved under his nose).
Do you think this is reasonable?
no subject
Date: 2014-02-03 11:24 pm (UTC)Indeed, all of Hogwarts is consistent with an 8-year-old's interpretation of how a school works. And that was just fine when these were all obviously children's books. But Rowling doesn't seem to give any thought past a certain point in the planning stage on any of the elements that she sets up. She never made any attempt to *keep* them children's books (and indeed claimed that she always intended them NOT to remain so). But whenever she wanted Harry to learn something new, she always dragged him out of Hogwarts to someplace else. She never seems to have shown him anything new *about Hogwarts* after she introduced the RoR. She certainly never let him notice that things worked in a more complex way or needed more staff to run it.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-08 02:18 am (UTC)That sums up it up really well. Once the story goes beyond the children's book level she really needed to start adding depth.
She certainly never let him notice that things worked in a more complex way or needed more staff to run it.
That's true of the entire HP world. She never goes beyond the surface to think about the complexities need to make it really work.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-08 02:32 am (UTC)One of the worst examples was when she used Slughorn as an exposition machine in Book 6 to explain to the reader about Horcruxes. And makes it necessary at that time because *there was no other information about them at Hogwarts*. The subject was *banned*. This works just fine. But then in book 7 when she tries to carry forth, she's already changed her mind (or forgotten) about who knew what when and has Harry abruptly *explaining* to us that of course Tom already knew what they were -- he just wanted to know about multiple ones.
This just makes Slughorn's explanation to Tom a useless diversion and probably untrue as well *for no good reason*. Harry had already seen that the RoR is full of banned books. Slughorn had inadvertantly told Tom where to go to find information on any banned subject. I mean can anyone say that Tom didn't discover the RoR at some time during his time at Hogwarts? It's perfectly obvious that he did -- he used it to hide a Horcrux after all. He didn't learn that after he left. He probably discovered at least the Room of Lost Things while he was hunting for the Chamber of Secrets.
Admittedly this isn't as bad as contradicting information handed us in the *same book* a handful of chapters later. But it's bad enough.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-08 02:40 am (UTC)And no student ever smuggles in banned thing!
no subject
Date: 2014-02-08 02:54 am (UTC)Yes he probably did spend some time with his classmates over the summers, but until he came across the term and knew what he was looking *for* he wouldn't have any idea where to look.
What fits with what we were given in HBP is that Tom came across the same reference that Hermione did some 50 years later -- which appears to be the only reference to the subject left in the library, and decided to investigate it. Sluggy gave him the basic summary and disavowed all personal knowledge. He also tried to head him off at the pass by letting him know that he wouldn't find that information at Hogwarts.
It also reads that Tom, now having been given a clue of a procedure that would further his attempt at immortality, started chasing the possibilities to the wrong person, off the top of his head, which resulted in frightening Slughorn out of his wits, and, belatedly warning Tom to shut up about it and back off. A bit of further consideration would probably have had him thinking of checking the Room of Lost Things for further information. If he had in mind what he was looking *for* in that room when he was pacing in front of the door it wouldn't have been a protracted search.
Admittedly, by the time the trio is at Hogwarts, those books are safely in the Headmaster's office, but when Tom was there, Dippett was Head and I'm not sure that he's have wanted them in *his* office. Indeed, Albus may not have retrieved them until after Tom showed up after his years away from Britain to ask for the DADA post.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-25 04:55 am (UTC)I'd bet Latin is still a living (second) language for most Continental wizards. Perhaps students at the Asian schools (there has to be more than one) speak Sanskrit and write with classical Chinese characters? Arabic and Swahili maybe for their relevant regions?
I would love if there were a wizarding creole somewhere. Given that with wizarding travel methods Paris and Naples might as well be just down the street from each other, there ought to be even more mingling than Muggles with our trains and planes manage--and more importantly, since Floo powder is centuries old, it should have been going on far longer than Muggles have been zipping around at high speeds. At least if I were a magical merchant in 1500 and had made a cross-continent trip once, I'd be willing to put a lot of resources into building a humongous fireplace or inventing a special industrial Portkey to transport goods back. (Can you Portkey or side-along a wagon full of spices?) Even if that doesn't work, since Seclusion the small marriage market in any given region would provide some motivation to stay in touch. Maybe on the Continent these days an Italian pureblood is a more desirable match than a French halfblood, if you're French. Add in a multinational, multilingual student body being locked up together with no Muggle contact for most of the year and there ought to be at least a bit of linguistic difference from the Muggle neighbors.
no subject
Date: 2014-02-25 05:48 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-03-01 04:54 am (UTC)But in fact there is probably no official catchment area for either school, and both take students from wherever they can get them.
Of course there seem to be translation spells, but I'd hate to base my education on one.
no subject
Date: 2014-03-01 06:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-03-01 06:47 pm (UTC)Hogwarts appears to mainly teach only English-speaking students and doesn't appear to teach them anything out of the ordinary -- although it is possible that one of the optional subjects may be a Hogwarts specialty. I doubt that Divination, Muggle Studies, or Ancient Runes would be the specialty, but Care of Magical Creatures or Arithmancy seem at least possibles.
no subject
Date: 2014-03-02 01:13 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-03-02 02:25 am (UTC)Durmstrang is so paranoid about secrecy it probably doesn't want large numbers of difficult to control magical beasts living nearby. Beauxbatons may be poorly positioned to maintain them while protecting Secrecy.
If so, then I think we have further evidence of Dumbledore sabotaging Hogwarts as an educational institution. Weren't even the thestrals brought in under Dippet?
no subject
Date: 2014-03-04 03:47 am (UTC)It would still be easier to actually have it all on site, since constant Flooing or Portkeying still opens potential security holes. But it might not be as tricky as it would be for a Muggle school facing an equivalent challenge.
no subject
Date: 2014-03-02 05:56 am (UTC)Frankly, I'd say that Arithmancy is about the only real likely *subject* to be a specialty of the school. Although more than one of the instructors of the core subjects are probably *very* highly rated.
no subject
Date: 2014-03-02 07:54 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-03-02 08:58 pm (UTC)But yes, Hermione would have picked up exactly that kind of information by the end of her first year -- in the remote chance that it wasn't mentioned in any of her prep reading before she ever boarded the Hogwarts Express. And she's fortunate that she has the kind of mind that can handle the demands of the subject. Wizardly illogic is not advantage in anything that deals -- however peripherally -- with math.
no subject
Date: 2014-03-02 01:12 am (UTC)But consider what Bulgaria was when Durmstrang was founded. It was an important empire that rose from the 7th century and expanded to capture the areas settled by southern Slavic people. To their north were the Rus - northern Slavs who were at the time still ruled by the Norse (Slavic tribes with a thin Norse ruling class). In the 9th century Bulgaria was invaded by the Byzantines who demanded that the Bulgarians convert to Christianity. Meanwhile the Vikings founded an empire of their own in the Ukraine, with Kiev as its capital, but this empire became Slavic shortly as the Norse ruling class became assimilated. Over the course of the 10th century Bulgaria declines to non-existence, while Kievan Rus expands. More areas of eastern Europe are converted to Christianity, including the Rus. These areas receive a strong Greek influence through Byzantium.
In the 11th century Kievan Rus breaks up in civil wars while the Duchy of Moscow rises. In the 12th century a smaller second Bulgarian empire is established. Meanwhile The Holy Roman Empire invades Slavic territories.
I think the background to the founding of Durmstrang had to do with the greater Christian influence - which brought both classical magic (Greek wandmaking, Latin spells) and persecution of magical folk. I am guessing the Bulgarian founder and her Germanic heir chose a place that was far from the fighting and not settled much by non-magicals. Perhaps the founders were tribal magicians that lost their positions when their respective tribes became Christian.
no subject
Date: 2014-03-04 03:42 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-03 06:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-02-03 07:28 pm (UTC)