Knave or Fool?

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

“Tell me honestly . . . do you think me most a knave or a fool ?’” asked John Willoughby of Miss Dashwood, and I think it’s time we addressed that question directly with regards to our friend and mentor Albus. 




Just because I love Jane Austen (and so, allegedly, does Rowling), here are two quotes in which a heroine is trying to figure out the true nature of a man of her acquaintance. 

First, Lizzie Bennett abour Willoughby:
“As to his real character, had information been in her power, she had never felt a wish of enquiring. His countenance, voice, and manner had established him at once in the possession of every virtue. She tried to recollect some instance of goodness, some distinguished trait of integrity or benevolence, that might rescue him from the attacks of Mr. Darcy; or at least, by the predominance of virtue, atone for those casual errors, under which she would endeavour to class what Mr. Darcy had described as the idleness and vice of many years continuance. But no such recollection befriended her. She could see him instantly before her, in every charm of air and address; but she could remember no more substantial good than the general approbation of the neighbourhood, and the regard which his social powers had gained him in the mess. “ (Pride & Prejudice)

Second, Anne Elliott about her cousin:
“Though they had now been acquainted a month, she could not be satisfied that she really knew his character. That he … talked well, professed good opinions, seemed to judge properly and as a man of principle, this was all clear enough. He certainly knew what was right, nor could she fix on any one article of moral duty evidently transgressed; but yet she would have been afraid to answer for his conduct. She distrusted the past, if not the present…. The names which he occasionally dropt of former associates, the allusions to former practices and pursuits, suggested suspicions not favourable of what he had been. She saw that … that there had been a period of his life (and probably not a short one) when he had been, at least, careless in all serious matters; and, though he might now think very differently, who could answer for the true sentiments of a clever, cautious man, grown old enough to appreciate a fair character? How could it ever be ascertained that his mind was truly cleansed?

“Mr. Elliot was rational, discreet, polished, but he was not open….”  (Persuasion)

(“Not open” as an indictment!—chokes on tea….)


So.  Is our friend Albus in truth a heartless, even soulless villain like Tom, with the primary difference being that unlike Tom, Albus was “a clever, cautious man grown old enough to appreciate a fair character”? 

Or can we find "some distinguished trait of integrity or benevolence," that might rescue Albus from the attacks of marionros, oneandthetruth, the_bitter_word, and, er, me, among others; or at least, by the predominance of virtue, atone for those casual errors, under which we might endeavour to class what JKR has depicted as the idleness and vice of many years continuance?

I seriously don’t know the answer here.  I look forward to the discussion.

I’ll start the ball rolling by saying that I see two things (and two only) that I don’t see how to explain by the “knave” theory. 

One is Albus’s giving up both Gellert and the pursuit of world domination after his sister’s death.  Why, unless continuing to pursue that shared dream had become impossible to reconcile with his own image of himself as a decent (ish) man?  Even if he shook off Gellert only in disgust for Gellert's having abandoned him to the mess of hushing up their mutual murder, why abandon his grandiose dreams if he hadn’t had a change of heart—and therefore, a heart to change?

The second is the Birdbath of Doom.  What was Albus sniveling about after drinking Tom’s potion, if he wasn’t feeling remorse or something like it?

Can anyone else find any irreducible attestations to virtue in his behavior, or conversely, unarguable evidence of his villainy?

I look forward to your responses!

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

Intelligence has many dimensions. Some can be a genius is science (or magic) and at the same time a simpleton where it comes to human affairs. And wizarding society seems to appreciate the former kind of intelligence and just assumes that it implies the latter too. Not sure how that can happen when both Hufflepuffs and Slytherins are socially aware. But then both are ill-considered in Dumbledore's Hogwarts (we don't know what their relative status was in earlier times, but I doubt the ostracizing of Slytherins started much earlier because there would be no smart Slytherins around by now if so).

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

You're right. Then the question is: was Dumbledore able to foresee the outcome of his actions?
Not everything, of course; only things like "If I'll do/allow this, it can cause roughly that".

Because there is one thing I don't understand about Dumbledore. He is repeating a few mistakes all along, starting with Gellert and Ariana. Is it because of his stupidity, or is it an intention?
(EDIT: He covers it by stating that he is benign enough to give second chances, or just by not speaking about it. In fact, his second chances are no second chances - for the good people. He is giving second chances to the villains only - and to be better villains the second time only. The rest is smoke and mirrors.)

True about the Slytherins - I don't see the ostracizing as going for too long, either.

Ostracized Slytherins

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I would say that at the very least, it is unlikely that they were ostracized when Phineas Nigeleus was Headmaster. However, he died in 1925, which is at least 15years before Tom entered Hogwarts.

Truthfully, I did not get the feeling that Slytherins were particularly ostracized during Tom's time at Hogwarts. He was apparently a favorite of many teachers and only Albus 'suspected' anything was wrong about him. He sounds as if he was popular (unless he or his crowd apparently secretly 'picked' on you - don't know the extent, whether it was worse than the Marauders or not). However, I find it interesting that Albus was suspicious of Tom's gang, but didn't apparently disapprove of James'.

Anyways, I would say the Slytherins became more overtly separated from the rest of the school during/after Tom's time at Hogwarts. Albus was probably treating them differently, but not the rest of the staff. Certainly Dippet seemed to like Tom.

Re: Ostracized Slytherins

[guardians-song.livejournal.com]

"However, I find it interesting that Albus was suspicious of Tom's gang, but didn't apparently disapprove of James'."
Tom's was far more successful, I think. The analogue would be *ironically - or not so much so?* Dumbledore's Army. James's gang was basically 'the Twins 0.5, but with two hangers-on'.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

You're right. Then the question is: was Dumbledore able to foresee the outcome of his actions?
Not everything, of course; only things like "If I'll do/allow this, it can cause roughly that".

I think there was no accident there was a chess game in the first book. One defining characteristic of a chess game is that the players do better if they see several moves ahead. Even though it doesn't seem to come up much after book 1, it's an image that fans keep bringing up. I think we're supposed to look at the series in that light.

True about the Slytherins - I don't see the ostracizing as going for too long, either.

When Snape talked to Lily about the Hogwarts houses, he said Slytherin was the one for (iirc) the smart people (or something along those lines.) He didn't seem to have much contact with the WW, but he got that idea from somewhere. It could have been Eileen, or it could have been Eileen and her parents, if the Princes weren't killed off like so many other parents and grandparents in the series. It's likely that Slytherin was seen as being a house of canny business acumen, rather than raw (and, therefore, evil) ambition before DD's time as headmaster.

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

In that case, Dumbledore is as bad as Voldemort (or whoever is the other across the chessboard) for me, because you just don't play chess with sentient beings for entertrainment if you want to stay good in my world.

Yes, Slytherin as a complement to Ravenclaw for the scholarly, and Gryffindor together with Hufflepuff for those who prefer physical actions, that could be the intention and it makes sense like this.
1/4 of children inherently good and 1/4 inherently bad from age 11 to the end of their lives doesn't make sense. :-)

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

I love coming up with classifications for the Houses. My first pairing of Houses was the one you pointed out: Slytherin and Ravenclaw are the “head” Houses—Houses of the intellect—while Gryffindor and Hufflepuff are the “heart” Houses—Houses of the emotions. Then I cross-matched them: Ravenclaw and Hufflepuff are rule-followers while Slytherin and Gryffindor are rule-breakers. I think it was Terri who pointed out to me that one can also pair Ravenclaw with Gryffindor as individualists, and Hufflepuff with Slytherin as community-thinkers. With Hufflepuff it’s friendship and loyalty; with Slytherin it’s networking and trading favors. In other words, Hufflepuff is a family and Slytherin is a political party (while Ravenclaw is a research academy and Gryffindor is a band of adventurers. Your fellow-Ravenclaw will debate your theories and check your facts, and your fellow-Gryffindor will watch your back and rescue you when you’re beaten, but each is out for his own intellectual/heroic glory.)

Therefore according to the Gospel of JKR, emotional, rule-breaking individualists are the Epitome of Good, and intellectual, rule-breaking networkers are EVIL EVIL EVIL.

[ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com]

Yes! I love these classifications, too.
And I love to write (and read) stories where the plot cannot go on *without* all four Houses cooperating. Because you need all four not to omiss something. Ravenclaw will find the core of the problem and (hundreds of possible) solution(s). Gryffindor will be first to try to do it. Slytherin will make it possible and will arrange things so that they will not be disturbed or killed when doing it, and Hufflepuff will provide all the materiál needed including transportation and fuel. :-D Can't omiss any, can you?