death to capslock

Isn't it odd though that Ron thought it made sense to suggest that Hermione ask her parents?

And what is the relevance of them being dentists to it being safe to ask them about Flamel?

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traverse.livejournal.com

Maybe this is supposed to show that the kids are running out of versions and options and are desperate enough to try the really dense suggestions. At least I think that this idea is supposed to come across as dense (even though on a different reading it is quite astute). And Hermione, accordingly, is just being mildly sarcastic about it.

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vermouth1991.livejournal.com

As I recall (which just might be dead wrong) the previous part of their conversation was that Harry saying he couldn't possibly ask the Dursleys about Flamel since they'd knock his block off if he so much as mentioned magic. And then Ron suggested that Hermione ask her parents because no matter what her parents might know, at least they're not abusive and magic-phobic.

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terri-testing.livejournal.com

Sorry to have to correct you, but I have the book here. They'd been searching in the library for information on NF, Harry had just been kicked out by Madam Pince (for loitering--the kids are hiding what they're looking for, and Harry says "Nothing" when Pince asks what he's looking for).

When Hermione and Ron join him Hermione enjoins the two boys to keep researching (while she goes home for Christmas vacation) "And send me an owl if you find anything."

"And you could ask your parents..."

So I took Ron's "safe" to mean, there's no chance they would tell Snape/other teachers that the Trio is poking into the mystery they are supposed to leave alone. (Whereas Ron owling his folks asking if they know who NF is might raise red flags.)

And Hermione's response? To imply that Ron is dense to imagine her (well-educated) Muggle parents could possibly know anything relevant.

Ouch. SHE'S teaching RON to have contempt for her Muggle parents.

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Part of me wants to make a connection between Alchemy and the use of amalgam fillings. Just imagine a secret society of dentists that diverged originally from alchemists.

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Contempt which she has learned herself in only a few short months. It's so sad. And especially since we never see the characters learn from that, or anything improving...

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That would be amazing.

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radicalhighway.livejournal.com

"The schedule of events would hardly be different from the actual book, but the kids would have discovered that Muggles aren't just helpless, pitiable lumps. Wouldn't that have been something."

That's not possible in the Potterverse.

Also, Hermione is woefully ignorant of muggle things in general. Not once is she seen talking about it. My guess is that once she found out she was a witch and after seeing how superior the WW was, she left the useless Muggle world behind. No point in searching for answers there anymore.

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guardians-song.livejournal.com

Giving a whole new meaning to the Rotfang Conspiracy.

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She seems to see learning as a way to prove to people that she's worthy, at this stage in her life. She might have grown out of it if she'd been in a better environment. But here... well, she's surrounded by people who utterly disdain Muggle knowledge. And so many of them seem so clever to her, doing all these amazing things. They must be right! Musn't they?

Hogwarts has a lot to answer for.

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terri-testing.livejournal.com

(she says reluctantly)

Well, if her parents are dentists they presumably had a good education in science, and probably value for it. And Hermione doesn't ever show signs of having had an extensive cultural education, does she? (Not for her, the speculations whether Ophelia's flowers are the ingredients for a memory potion....) Or to have spent her childhood reading fairy tales and fantasy?

If her parents had spent her childhood trying to come up with proper scientific explanations for the weird things that occasionally happened around Hermione, then it must have been horribly disillusioning for Hermione to discover that they were dead wrong all along: magic, the explanation they wouldn't even consider, is real!

If she'd spent her childhood encouraged to read fairy tales and fantasy, it would have been natural to look and see what, if anything, the sources in the Muggle world got right. But if, prior to her diagnosis, she'd never read much if any.... and then once she knew she was a witch, she had all those CREDIBLE books to read. Like Hogwarts, a History.

But she still has absorbed a very scientific, or at least pragmatic view of magic: it's rules to be learned, different from the Laws of Science and superseding them, but to be mastered in the same way. But she knows that the Laws of Magic trump the Laws of Science, and that her parents know only the latter. So she showed up at Hogwarts with her texts nearly memorized....

Oh, goddess. That's why the Ministry leaves it until midsummer before Hogwarts to tell the Muggle-raised AND THEIR GUARDIANS what the kids are. They WANT the parents to have made fools of themselves coming up with alternate explanations that don't explain, punishing their kids for things they can't help... Floundering.

Then they waltz in with the explanation that the parents were too dumb to come up with, and five weeks later whisk the kids off to join their magical peers. And an all-pervasive indoctrination that "Muggles" are stupid and incompetent.

Well, their folks certainly were!

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mary-j-59.livejournal.com

Yes! It would have been awesome! Also reasonable.

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Hermione definitely seems focused on memorizing Facts and Rules and nothing else to a greater degree than your average kid her age (still often concrete thinkers), and she seems to expect that spitting out these facts will gain her approval. Which definitely makes me think there was something... uncreative about the Granger household, as you say. Like maybe the Grangers were extremely focused on outward appearances* of being scientific and knowledgeable, somewhat like how the Dursleys are obsessed with looking normal and respectable.

You do have to wonder if there was a Squib Granger not too many generations ago, insisting on the family looking as science-y as possible and discouraging the kids from reading fantasy or anything too magical, because UGH MAGIC I REJECT THOSE AWFUL PEOPLE WHO REJECTED ME.

Oh! You might be on to something with why they leave the notification so late. Wizards to the rescue, poor clueless Muggles, right.

*Appearances, because she doesn't seem to much concept of science as constant experimentation, with theories subject to revision. Which she ought to have if her parents had encouraged her to play with a chemistry set or whatever, instead of patting her on the head for reproducing textbook experiments correctly.

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I'm glad I'm not the only who noticed (and was a little bit bothered by) the fact that much of Hermione's "brilliance" is simply regurgitated facts from a textbook.
When I think "brilliant" I think of a pioneer; someone who breaks the rules and makes new ones, mapping out uncharted territory, someone who thinks outside of the box, a creative and inventive mind. What Hermione does seems to be the opposite of that; memorizing textbooks and sticking staunchly to the rules, not daring to go outside "the Box", as it were.

One would expect magical skill, of all things, to be more creativity based, since as Hermione herself says, most wizards don't have an ounce of logic.
What is magic then?! There's no logic or critical thought necessary, but neither is their any creativity in it; to succeed at magic one must simple follow the rules and don't ask questions because nothing can be explained. No wonder wizards are a miserable lot- they lack reason and artistic merit, there's one thing in their world that matters and that's magical potency.

On the other hand, maybe Hermione was just trying to fit in. In the first book she seems to be more logical (Snape's puzzle) AND creative (her blue-fire spell). It's almost like as the series went on it all got stamped out as she desperately tries to assimilate into being what an ideal witch should be. Either that or Rowling just doesn't know how to write a smart person.

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terri-testing.livejournal.com

As I've said before, as someone who was bright AND very insecure when I was a teen, regurgitating your texts for teachers is what you do when you're absolutely terrified of GETTING IT WRONG. Or at least it's what I did. If I ventured an explanation on my own, I might end up being mistaken, oh nos.... Anything but that! Plus, if I repeat what the text says, I'm backed by Authority; if I venture an observation of my own, I'm on my own defending it.

So I can see a bright but insecure person, entering the WW from outside, clinging to textbook knowledge as Hermione seems to. (What if, before she was taken up by Harry and Ron, she'd had an encounter with the Gryff girls in which Hermione's opinion was met with giggles and "Only a Muggle would think that!"?)

Also, as I've mentioned, Jo's internalized sexism: if you look at the history of sexist attitudes over time regarding education, the version of "women are intellectually inferior to men" prevalent in her and my youth-to-college days was, "women aren't really creative--if they chance to outperform a man in a class, it's just because they memorize better."

And here's Jo, creating a universe in which the bright males are all creators, but her token brainy female is a memorizer....

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She cac creatively adapt magic to new uses when it isn't going to be graded, like the DA coins. But she doesn't seem to value experimentation, or think it will be rewarded, or that she could do more of it. She seems stifled. Hogwarts does seem to reinforce her attitude, or at least doesn't do much to dissuade her. But it also seems possible that her parents also praised little Hermione for being so bright and knowing all those facts and not encouraging creativity for her to already take that approach for granted when she arrives.

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Yes, that does makes a lot of sense. And from my view, the WW doesn't seem to place a high value on creativity anyways. Like you said, Hermione's insecurities are probably doubled by her heritage, she seems to feel the needs to prove herself as the perfect witch.

Those sexist attitudes toward education are fascinating to me, since the attitudes when I were in school were starkly different.
When I was in school, girls were actually seen as being more creative than boys. The thought process was along the lines of "girls are sensitive and emotional and that makes them artistic". Boys, on the other hand, were seen to be logical and rational, they were supposed to be better at math and science. "Girls are bad at math" was a popular sexist attitude from my time. I also remember when I was a kid some of the boys would get teased if they were into art for being a 'pansy' or 'gay'. (Born in 1991, by the way, to give you an idea of my time period).

The 90s-gen kids like myself would be getting a very different reading than someone from Rowling's generation. Maybe that's why many HP fans don't notice the unfortunate implications as much?

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I was born between you and Harry, and I got similar implicit messages--except that even though girls were supposedly more artsy and creative in general, somehow it was still usually men who did textbook-worthy great artistic things. (The whole "women are better at cooking and men are hopeless in the kitchen, but it takes a man to be a truly great chef because... er... *mumblemumble*" contradiction.) Painting? Girly. Creating a masterpiece painting or starting a new artistic movement? Suddenly masculine, or at least masculine enough not to mock! Which gave us the overall message that girls were creative at stuff that "didn't matter," like crafting or writing generic sappy poetry, and boys were usually uncreative unless they were creative geniuses. Wizards aren't the only ones lackign in logic, unfortunately.

I can very much see Hermione getting the message that "creative" means "girly and therefore worthless," and being too insecure to think that she might have the genius-level creative potential boys were alleged to have sometimes. And obviously Hogwarts is not teaching the kids to work at experimenting and being creative, and it sure doesn't seem like her parents did either. Poor kid.

Edited Date: 2015-10-06 01:25 am (UTC)

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Very true. It's a pretty ridiculous double standard: art is girly and feminine, but all the famous painters and musicians in the textbooks are male for... some reason. There isn't a lick of sense to it.

You have a good point about Hermione, I could easily see her having that point of view about herself.

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Ahem, science is an incredibly creative endeavor. You can't do new stuff without creativity.

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Well, of course, but it isn't taught that way nearly as often as it should be, in my experience. Learn these standard equations and replicate these experiments so you can see that the textbook is correct, kids! And it seems like Hermione is more comfortable with that view than with science as constant experimentation and revision of provisional understandings. If her parents did encourage her to actually experiment with a chemistry set and praised her for trying new things even if they didn't work out, we sure don't see much evidence of that in her behavior when she arrives at Hogwarts. It seems more likely that they taught her the "science as memorizing True Facts Discovered By Great Men" view, if they gave any particular thought to it.

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You're right, science naturally needs creativity in order to make breakthroughs, new technology, etc. But as a child, I was led to believe that science and creativity were like oil and water; they just didn't mix, never ever. When I was a teen I hated science; thought it was the most boring subject ever. But when I met my boyfriend (a science student), he showed me how interesting and creative science is supposed to be! Nowadays I'm actually quite fascinated by it. I never truly hated science, I just hated the way my teachers taught it.

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nx74defiant.livejournal.com

There is an episode of Big Bang Theory where Penny has Bernadette and Amy do her college homework. Bernadette comments: I feel like I'm back in High School, doing the popular girls homework to get her to like me.
Amy replies happily: Yes, and this time it is actually working.

Hermione's role in the trio is to do all the homework. Quoting the books is safe. Going beyond, and taking risk is scary, not only is she risking her grades, it could cost her the only friends she has.

Edited Date: 2015-10-11 02:40 am (UTC)

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By sheer luck, today I ran across a post on The Toast called "A Harry Potter Where Hermione Doesn't Do Anyone's Homework For Them."

I think you're right about how Hermione weighs the risks.

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merrymelody.livejournal.com

I notice even in a liberal stronghold like the toast, potter still brings out the 'snitches get stitches!' comments.

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This is why I avoid comments sections almost everywhere.

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vermouth1991.livejournal.com

Sometimes the sites' contents themselves can take you by surprise, as well. The most negative review I ever read on "Schindler's List", for example, was not on some Nazi-sympathizer movie review site, but on an *American Jewish affairs* site, which actually condemned Spielberg for somehow missing the while point about the holocaust, or some other rot. (I wish I could give you link, but I've mostly erased the experience from my brain.)

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