Regarding DTCL's frequent attitude toward two certain HP characters

[star-dragon5.livejournal.com]

You're all familiar with the Draco in Leather Pants and Ron the Death Eater tropes, right?

After seeing the way some--not all--members of this comm treat Snape and Dumbledore, I'm seriously tempted to rename the tropes "Severus in Leather Pants" and "Albus the Death Eater."

I'm sorry if I've offended anyone, but I joined DTCL under the impression it was about analyzing the more problematic parts of the HP books, not about glorifying characters you like/bashing characters you don't like. It looks like I was wrong.

Comments

[star-dragon5.livejournal.com]

- yes, Snape was right: James Potter was an arrogant so-and-so who used to strut around as if he owned Hogwarts

So? That in itself isn't a crime.

- yes, Draco really WAS mauled by a Hippogryff and yes those 'lessons' by Hagrid are bloody dangerous

Which was his own fault for not listening to Hagrid. And I can't recall anyone else in Hagrid's class getting seriously injured like that, can you?

- yes, Lucius was right: Albus Dumbledore really WAS the worst thing that ever happened to Hogwarts

How so?

- yss, Lupin was lying when he claimed that Snape 'hated James because James was better at Quidditch'

No. Either he was telling the truth because JKR hadn't thought Severus's crush on Lily up yet, or he thought he was telling the truth because he didn't know Severus had a crush on Lily.

- yes, Dumbledore was lying when he claimed that 'Snape hated Harry because he hated Harry's father because James and once saved his life and Snape resented the 'Lifedebt'

Maybe he was. Or maybe he was telling the truth because JKR didn't write in Snape's obsession with Lily until sometime between HBP and DH.

- yes, Sirius was lying (or at least lying to himself) when he claimed that Snape 'deserved' the bullying dealt out by the Marauders because 'he was eyeball deep into the Dark Arts and came to Hogwarts knowing more Dark curses than anyone else' - I mean, who would've taught Snape those spells? His muggle father? Sheez!)

How do you know Snape (and possibly his Death Eater buddies) wasn't equally nasty to them in return? I don't even like Snape and I refuse to believe the guy who invented spells like Sectumsempra in his spare time couldn't have taken on all four Marauders with both hands tied behind his back. And we all know he's not exactly a doormat.

This means, among other things, that we point out the many, many faults of the Sainted Albus Dumbledore (so sainted that his name even means 'white') and, among other things, point out the good things Snape does.

I won't deny that Dumbledore has faults (my opinion of him went down quite a bot after reading DH), or that Snape does good things. I just wish people would stick to discussing their canon flaws and good deeds respectively without resorting to coming up with wild theories unsupported by the text.

Or at least the way the text tries to manipulate the reader into believing that Snape does Awful Things (aka 'red herrings') while it's later revealed that he was actually doing Good Things.

So emotionally abusing your students for years, blatantly favoring your House above all the others, taking your old grudge out on your rival's son, and attempting to murder a child's beloved pet are good things?

There is this weird perception among Potter fans, however, that if you like the Snape character, warts and all, or even - God forbid! - try to understand - but not excuse - his faults, this must mean that these 'Snape Apologists' MUST think that Snape is sexy (aka 'Snape in Leather Pants') and therefore must be either attracted to 'Bad Boys' (Snape is a Bad Boy?!!) or, at best, "only likes Snape because they like/are attracted to/want to get in bed with Alan Rickman".

I've never quite understood if they truly believe that, or if they just use this rather weird straw man to fling at anyone who dares to suggest that Dumbledumb is less than saintly or that Snape is actually a pretty good teacher and so prevent any deep analyses of the text (and thus any criticism of their beloved HP characters).

I've no doubt some do, but maybe the rest of them just don't like seeing a perfectly good character stripped of all his canon depth and complexity, which is what the Snape apologists do, not the true Snape fans. You like Snape, fine. You think he's good-looking, fine. You start making excuses for him and insisting that the morally-questionable things he does in canon aren't really that bad, we have a problem on our hands. Which, if you'll click that link again, is the essence of the Draco in Leather Pants trope, not merely finding someone attractive.

She knew the evil that narcissists like Dumbledore do

Since when is Dumbledore a narcissist?

[penguinsuzie.livejournal.com]

I've no doubt some do, but maybe the rest of them just don't like seeing a perfectly good character stripped of all his canon depth and complexity, which is what the Snape apologists do, not the true Snape fans. You like Snape, fine. You think he's good-looking, fine. You start making excuses for him and insisting that the morally-questionable things he does in canon aren't really that bad, we have a problem on our hands. Which, if you'll click that link again, is the essence of the Draco in Leather Pants trope, not merely finding someone attractive.

I've never seen anyone on this forum act like Snape is some kind of saint, he's a seriously damaged bitter person who lashes out at people.

The difference though is that the crappy things he does are called out, unlike the actions of characters that are designated as "good": Dumbledore left Harry with the Dursely's even though he knew they were abusive, Minerva locked Neville out in the halls as punishment when she thought there was a serial killer prowling the halls, Lupin kept Hogwarts' secrets to himself because he didn't want to let Dumbledore down even after he believed that Sirius had used them to sneak into Harry's room and attempt to murder him, Hermione kept Rita as a prisoner for several months, the Twins almost killed a student and showed zero regret when he was hospitalized for months (we never even find out if he actually recovered), Harry regretted almost killing Draco for a short while before deciding that it was completely unfair that he got detention for it. It goes on and on and these things are barely mentioned. Dumbledore is treated like the golden mentor, Minerva as if she's actually strict but fair, the Twins like good natured tricksters, and Harry as some kind of martyred Jesus figure.

I like these characters but the double standard bothers me. IMHO Snape is a strong example of Good is Not Nice.