Fidelius Charm speculation
Jan. 1st, 2019 05:35 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sunnyskywalker posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
deathtocapslockWhile looking over Oryx's posts on Vold War I, the question of why the Fidelius Charm seemed to be entirely broken by the time Hagrid arrived caught my eye again. Because obviously, anyone can see the house now--it's a graffitied memorial. Hagrid could find it with no problem (he doesn't seem likely to have been on the short list of people let in on the secret in the week it was active), and so could the Muggle emergency services shortly after.
Oryx suggested that the secret ended when its subject ceased to exist, whether that subject was the house or the Potters themselves.
However, the house didn't really cease to exist, except in the sense that having a big hole in one room damages its integrity as a house. Does it work similarly to Horcruxes, where if you damage the subject enough that it doesn't function properly (in this case, as a house), the secret breaks, even if the subject is otherwise mostly intact? This seems like a really bad way to set up the charm: all you'd have to do is figure out the general location and start lobbing small explosives in the right direction. Eventually, one would do enough damage to break the secret. But maybe wizards wouldn't think of that.
Also, making the secret be the Potters rather than the house causes its own problems. You'd have to assume that Harry wasn't part of the secret, most likely, or how would Petunia have been able to see him on her doorstep? But if Voldemort could still see Harry through the window, what would it matter if he couldn't see James and Lily? They don't know Harry is the primary target, but Voldemort taking Harry as a hostage to force James and Lily to reveal themselves should have crossed their minds.
Or maybe the secret was that "the Potters are inside Whatever Cottage in Godric's Hollow," so that they couldn't be seen while in the house, and then Harry could be seen by anyone as soon as Hagrid took him out. That brings us back to Hagrid having been brought into the secret. It couldn't have been by Peter telling him in person (unless Polyjuice was involved), but maybe Peter sent a note. On the other hand, there's still no obvious reason for them to have let Hagrid in on the secret. Unless Dumbledore convinced them that they needed someone on the Hogwarts staff to be a secret-knower for some reason, and they felt Hagrid was the most trustworthy?
However you work it, something always seems off. You can explain it... but it takes work and feels forced.
Here's another possibility, which I haven't fully worked through yet: no one told Harry, but the Secret Keeper isn't restricted to only telling one person at a time. The Secret Keeper has the option of revealing the secret to the world all at once.
After all, suppose the secret needed to be undone quickly for some reason? For instance, if the people inside a Fideliused location needed emergency help and you couldn't contact the Secret Keeper in time to let the rescuers in on the secret? Or maybe you would want whichever bystanders were closest to be able to get in, so breaking the secret for everyone at once would be the quickest method. Or maybe if a person inherited a secret-kept house like Grimmauld Place, they might want to de-secret it at some point when the danger had subsided and their kids wanted to bring friends over without needing to go through a magic ritual first.
Why would Peter have used this option instead of just telling Voldemort the secret, though? If the secret was the house, maybe Voldemort wanted to make sure the world could see his murderous handiwork right away. No point in sending up the Dark Mark to advertise that you've killed your enemies if no one can see anything when they get there.
A smart villain would have waited until after he'd killed his targets, but this is Voldemort. And maybe he had some concern that if he left Peter sitting around, thinking about how he'd betrayed his friends, Peter would try to run off or something before breaking the secret, reasoning that if he left the secret intact, everyone would assume Voldemort just used his mysterious dark powers to get in rather than that the Secret Keeper was a traitor. It should only take him a few minutes to kill them, so he should have plenty of time to get away before whatever alarms Dumbledore might have set brought the Order to the scene.* So the risk was low.
So Peter broke the secret and Voldemort immediately Apparated to the Potters' street (where a kid admired his "costume"). Then he busted in through the front door, killed James, ran upstairs, killed Lily, and failed to kill Harry. Fortunately, the secret being broken meant that Hagrid had no trouble digging Harry out of the rubble before Muggle emergency services arrived.
I'm not sure this works more smoothly than the other possibilities, but at least there's another slightly strained option?
Incidentally, what kind of alarms did Dumbledore have that he knew immediately that (a) James and Lily were dead, (b) Harry wasn't, and (c) he should send Hagrid to take Harry to Little Whinging? Or should we assume time travel shenangigans?
Oryx suggested that the secret ended when its subject ceased to exist, whether that subject was the house or the Potters themselves.
However, the house didn't really cease to exist, except in the sense that having a big hole in one room damages its integrity as a house. Does it work similarly to Horcruxes, where if you damage the subject enough that it doesn't function properly (in this case, as a house), the secret breaks, even if the subject is otherwise mostly intact? This seems like a really bad way to set up the charm: all you'd have to do is figure out the general location and start lobbing small explosives in the right direction. Eventually, one would do enough damage to break the secret. But maybe wizards wouldn't think of that.
Also, making the secret be the Potters rather than the house causes its own problems. You'd have to assume that Harry wasn't part of the secret, most likely, or how would Petunia have been able to see him on her doorstep? But if Voldemort could still see Harry through the window, what would it matter if he couldn't see James and Lily? They don't know Harry is the primary target, but Voldemort taking Harry as a hostage to force James and Lily to reveal themselves should have crossed their minds.
Or maybe the secret was that "the Potters are inside Whatever Cottage in Godric's Hollow," so that they couldn't be seen while in the house, and then Harry could be seen by anyone as soon as Hagrid took him out. That brings us back to Hagrid having been brought into the secret. It couldn't have been by Peter telling him in person (unless Polyjuice was involved), but maybe Peter sent a note. On the other hand, there's still no obvious reason for them to have let Hagrid in on the secret. Unless Dumbledore convinced them that they needed someone on the Hogwarts staff to be a secret-knower for some reason, and they felt Hagrid was the most trustworthy?
However you work it, something always seems off. You can explain it... but it takes work and feels forced.
Here's another possibility, which I haven't fully worked through yet: no one told Harry, but the Secret Keeper isn't restricted to only telling one person at a time. The Secret Keeper has the option of revealing the secret to the world all at once.
After all, suppose the secret needed to be undone quickly for some reason? For instance, if the people inside a Fideliused location needed emergency help and you couldn't contact the Secret Keeper in time to let the rescuers in on the secret? Or maybe you would want whichever bystanders were closest to be able to get in, so breaking the secret for everyone at once would be the quickest method. Or maybe if a person inherited a secret-kept house like Grimmauld Place, they might want to de-secret it at some point when the danger had subsided and their kids wanted to bring friends over without needing to go through a magic ritual first.
Why would Peter have used this option instead of just telling Voldemort the secret, though? If the secret was the house, maybe Voldemort wanted to make sure the world could see his murderous handiwork right away. No point in sending up the Dark Mark to advertise that you've killed your enemies if no one can see anything when they get there.
A smart villain would have waited until after he'd killed his targets, but this is Voldemort. And maybe he had some concern that if he left Peter sitting around, thinking about how he'd betrayed his friends, Peter would try to run off or something before breaking the secret, reasoning that if he left the secret intact, everyone would assume Voldemort just used his mysterious dark powers to get in rather than that the Secret Keeper was a traitor. It should only take him a few minutes to kill them, so he should have plenty of time to get away before whatever alarms Dumbledore might have set brought the Order to the scene.* So the risk was low.
So Peter broke the secret and Voldemort immediately Apparated to the Potters' street (where a kid admired his "costume"). Then he busted in through the front door, killed James, ran upstairs, killed Lily, and failed to kill Harry. Fortunately, the secret being broken meant that Hagrid had no trouble digging Harry out of the rubble before Muggle emergency services arrived.
I'm not sure this works more smoothly than the other possibilities, but at least there's another slightly strained option?
Incidentally, what kind of alarms did Dumbledore have that he knew immediately that (a) James and Lily were dead, (b) Harry wasn't, and (c) he should send Hagrid to take Harry to Little Whinging? Or should we assume time travel shenangigans?
no subject
Date: 2019-01-07 01:07 pm (UTC)IMHO goblins probably use the quill for certain types of paperwork. Knowing them their human employees probably have to sign their contract in blood.
Because Harry is so sheltered/incurious we never learn if there is *lawyer* profession in WW. Heck considering OotP I would even say that there is no such thing as attorney or prosecutor in WW. Perhaps people who study law fulfil a bit different role from what we see in real world? Perhaps they only advise instead of representing?
After all "representing" suggests an *active role* and as DH showed us being proactive is bad :P
no subject
Date: 2019-01-07 10:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2025-02-01 08:39 pm (UTC)And maybe there are civil suits. Lucius Malfoy might have overlooked an opportunity to fight for damages from Buckbeak's injury as well as pushing for the "criminal" trial. Okay, fine, Buckbeak escaped execution, but Hogwarts still owes the Malfoys a gazillion galleons, so there!