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deathtocapslock(I've been lurking in this community for a couple of days now, reading posts from way back and enjoying the discussion [and snark]. I know this topic has been done before numerous times, but I hope it's okay for me to offer my thoughts as well.)
It is over a decade later and I am still disenchanted with how Severus Snape was flattened as a character in DH by having everything connect to Lily. I rarely encounter fans of Snape on Tumblr who feel the same way, so I decided to post this here to find other people who can empathize.
From books 1-6, I found Snape to be a fascinating character. He was a mean teacher and a bitter man, but also (seemingly) on the side of the good guys with his own mysterious agenda. Despite his cruel nature, he was presented as capable of protecting and helping those whom he loathed or did not care for. He had a sense of right and wrong when it counted, even while remaining bitter. This unpleasant man left a group of prejudiced and dangerous criminals because even unpleasant people are capable of stepping away from evil. All of this made him an intriguing character full of potential, and I hoped that JKR wouldn’t waste that potential by making everything he’s done be for the Love of a Good Woman that Got Away.
But then she did, and I ended up disappointed. Snape’s character was demolished for me. No longer was he a complex man capable of both good and bad, but a man reduced to a static lovesick figure who never changed at all. Defecting from the Death Eaters, protecting innocents, working for the good guys, striving to win the war, risking his life… all for Lily. All for an ongoing obsession that made him look pitiful. He had no sliver of light or goodness of his own merit as a person; everything was for and about Lily.
It didn’t help matters that Lily was nothing more than a cardboard cutout of a character. She had no flaws. She was an angel that every (male) character was meant to adore. James, Sirius, Remus, Peter, and Snape were all presented as men who made mistakes. But Lily? Everybody loves her because she’s always right and a symbol of Purity and Goodness for every man in the vicinity!
And you mean to tell me that Snape, a man known for holding grudges and festering in his vindictive anger, would continue to love a woman who chose his tormentor, popular and privileged Gryffindor bully James Potter, over him? Really? Another way Lily was presented as perfect and exceptional; even Snape couldn’t dislike or hate her. How convenient (and, in my opinion, out of character).
Snape, the lower-class, ugly, greasy, mean, miserable, and unhealthy mess of a man wasn’t allowed any redeeming qualities of his own volition. No, it all had to come back to Lily, the middle-class, beautiful, popular, kind, pleasant, and perfect mother and wife. Who needs character development, growth, and depth when you’ve got the “power” of Loving the Good Woman?
I never expected Snape to become a selfless and nice saint. Of course not. What I did expect and hope for was the lesson that "good" is not always pretty and pleasant, just as "evil" is not always ugly and mean. That bravery can be found in the unlikeliest and darkest of people; that even the people you hate can still be heroic and do the right thing. I thought that was the lesson readers (and Harry himself) had to learn through Snape, whether he survived the war or not.
But I was wrong. It wasn’t meant to be complex and profound. It all came down to Loving the Good Woman. Lily was the linchpin for everything. Instead of finding it interesting or meaningful, I found it insulting, trite, and boring. Snape went from being a character full of potential to another shallow example of a brooding, broken man following the whims of obsessive love as a stand-in for morality. I couldn’t agree with other Snape fans who liked his reasoning for turning ex-Death Eater, but I couldn’t stand with people who hated every aspect of his character either. I was torn (and still am).
My ideal ending for Snape would’ve been him surviving the war and walking away from everything. With no masters, no obligations, and no need for atonement, he would have the freedom to finally control his life. He would have to question his purpose in the new world. Death is the easy way out for a complicated messy character; it’s easy to honor Snape when he’s dead, but how to deal with him alive? How would Harry see Snape if Snape had survived and remained unpleasant as ever, despite his bravery and loyalty? What would have their final interaction been like?
But that would’ve been too difficult for JKR to deal with, so let’s kill Snape off in a lame way and let’s give him the power of Loving the Good Woman to wrap everything up quick and easy. How painfully lazy.
I have long speculated that JKR never wanted her major Slytherin characters to have any depth or redeeming qualities of their own because it would overshadow the heroic Gryffindors or send the "wrong" message. Slytherins are regulated to two roles: evil (e.g. Voldemort, the Death Eaters, Umbridge, etc.) or pitiful (e.g. Snape and the Malfoys). Snape couldn't make his own choices, have his own motivations, or live his life on his terms; it had to revolve around Lily to give him the worth he didn't "deserve" for being a Slytherin.
Anyways, if anyone has read this long overdue rant of mine, thank you for taking the time. I had to let it out after re-reading the series and experiencing great frustration all over again.
Edit: Fixed some mistakes and changed to a different layout. Forgive me, I'm rusty with LJ.
It is over a decade later and I am still disenchanted with how Severus Snape was flattened as a character in DH by having everything connect to Lily. I rarely encounter fans of Snape on Tumblr who feel the same way, so I decided to post this here to find other people who can empathize.
From books 1-6, I found Snape to be a fascinating character. He was a mean teacher and a bitter man, but also (seemingly) on the side of the good guys with his own mysterious agenda. Despite his cruel nature, he was presented as capable of protecting and helping those whom he loathed or did not care for. He had a sense of right and wrong when it counted, even while remaining bitter. This unpleasant man left a group of prejudiced and dangerous criminals because even unpleasant people are capable of stepping away from evil. All of this made him an intriguing character full of potential, and I hoped that JKR wouldn’t waste that potential by making everything he’s done be for the Love of a Good Woman that Got Away.
But then she did, and I ended up disappointed. Snape’s character was demolished for me. No longer was he a complex man capable of both good and bad, but a man reduced to a static lovesick figure who never changed at all. Defecting from the Death Eaters, protecting innocents, working for the good guys, striving to win the war, risking his life… all for Lily. All for an ongoing obsession that made him look pitiful. He had no sliver of light or goodness of his own merit as a person; everything was for and about Lily.
It didn’t help matters that Lily was nothing more than a cardboard cutout of a character. She had no flaws. She was an angel that every (male) character was meant to adore. James, Sirius, Remus, Peter, and Snape were all presented as men who made mistakes. But Lily? Everybody loves her because she’s always right and a symbol of Purity and Goodness for every man in the vicinity!
And you mean to tell me that Snape, a man known for holding grudges and festering in his vindictive anger, would continue to love a woman who chose his tormentor, popular and privileged Gryffindor bully James Potter, over him? Really? Another way Lily was presented as perfect and exceptional; even Snape couldn’t dislike or hate her. How convenient (and, in my opinion, out of character).
Snape, the lower-class, ugly, greasy, mean, miserable, and unhealthy mess of a man wasn’t allowed any redeeming qualities of his own volition. No, it all had to come back to Lily, the middle-class, beautiful, popular, kind, pleasant, and perfect mother and wife. Who needs character development, growth, and depth when you’ve got the “power” of Loving the Good Woman?
I never expected Snape to become a selfless and nice saint. Of course not. What I did expect and hope for was the lesson that "good" is not always pretty and pleasant, just as "evil" is not always ugly and mean. That bravery can be found in the unlikeliest and darkest of people; that even the people you hate can still be heroic and do the right thing. I thought that was the lesson readers (and Harry himself) had to learn through Snape, whether he survived the war or not.
But I was wrong. It wasn’t meant to be complex and profound. It all came down to Loving the Good Woman. Lily was the linchpin for everything. Instead of finding it interesting or meaningful, I found it insulting, trite, and boring. Snape went from being a character full of potential to another shallow example of a brooding, broken man following the whims of obsessive love as a stand-in for morality. I couldn’t agree with other Snape fans who liked his reasoning for turning ex-Death Eater, but I couldn’t stand with people who hated every aspect of his character either. I was torn (and still am).
My ideal ending for Snape would’ve been him surviving the war and walking away from everything. With no masters, no obligations, and no need for atonement, he would have the freedom to finally control his life. He would have to question his purpose in the new world. Death is the easy way out for a complicated messy character; it’s easy to honor Snape when he’s dead, but how to deal with him alive? How would Harry see Snape if Snape had survived and remained unpleasant as ever, despite his bravery and loyalty? What would have their final interaction been like?
But that would’ve been too difficult for JKR to deal with, so let’s kill Snape off in a lame way and let’s give him the power of Loving the Good Woman to wrap everything up quick and easy. How painfully lazy.
I have long speculated that JKR never wanted her major Slytherin characters to have any depth or redeeming qualities of their own because it would overshadow the heroic Gryffindors or send the "wrong" message. Slytherins are regulated to two roles: evil (e.g. Voldemort, the Death Eaters, Umbridge, etc.) or pitiful (e.g. Snape and the Malfoys). Snape couldn't make his own choices, have his own motivations, or live his life on his terms; it had to revolve around Lily to give him the worth he didn't "deserve" for being a Slytherin.
Anyways, if anyone has read this long overdue rant of mine, thank you for taking the time. I had to let it out after re-reading the series and experiencing great frustration all over again.
Edit: Fixed some mistakes and changed to a different layout. Forgive me, I'm rusty with LJ.
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no subject
Date: 2019-01-09 04:55 pm (UTC)"In HP verse there is a lot of characters whom I genuinely liked in pre-HBP era, not because they were nice or good characters, but because either they were interesting or had potential to grow into something interesting."
For some reason, it takes a lot for me to find nice or good characters interesting. I liked Luna and the Golden Trio well enough, but I never thought their characters would go anywhere beyond their roles (although I hoped Harry at least wouldn't remain the same, but that was a disappointment too). I got ahead of myself assuming that JKR had something extra up her sleeve for her Slytherin characters, when they were meant to be nothing more than antagonists for Harry to despise, defeat, or judge.
"This culminated in background characters, who are supposed to be plot devices, looking much more interesting because we don't know much about them.
Heck pre-OotP Dumbledore looks much more interesting than he is, because Jo didn't try to explore his character."
Yes, we were allowed to fill in the characters' "empty spots" as it were, and provide them with our own motivations, background info, etc. But it seemed that nearly every character was already destined to play a role they wouldn't evolve or change out of for the sake of the plot.
I think by OotP, JKR wanted to take her series in a "darker" and more "mature" direction by playing around with the potential for shades of grey, ambivalence, and questioning the world and people around you. But, in my opinion, she never followed through with her potential. She never had her characters mature or develop along with the newfound "dark" tone the books had taken. I think that's why PoA is a favorite for many fans; it's when she peaked with her story and characters.
I have a lot of things to rant about, so maybe I'll post more in the future, but I don't want to over-stuff this community with my frustrations, ha.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-10 07:49 am (UTC)You might say 'duh, it's obvious!, but let's look at the characters involved in this affair:
Lily: saint, pure lady of whom love men fight
James: a man who used to be bad, but through his struggles for the lady's love he becomes better man.
Severus: a man who introduces the lady to the court, he doesn't treat her well (from author's perspective), but struggles to keep her by his side.
To me it reads like corrupted version of Courtly Love.
We know that Jo used other elements from Arthurian mythology and that she writes parodies of creatures from fairy tales (poor brownies), so it wouldn't surprise me if in her mind Severus/Lily/James was her reinterpretation of Arthur/Guinevere/Lancelot.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-10 10:11 pm (UTC)Nevertheless, even if Snape were irredeemably evil, I'd still find him a more interesting character than Lily or James. Snape appears more in the books than either of them and provides an actual personality and mystery for the reader. James at least is shown to have some personality, but Lily is there to be a morality guide for the men in her life. It's not enough to spark my interest.
Even as a kid reading HP, I felt like a callous person for not particularly caring about Harry's parents and finding Lily's sacrifice nothing special while the rest of the fandom adored them. I did like Sirius and Lupin though, and still do. But I can't find it within myself to care about James/Lily as characters. Any time fans gush over them, my reaction is some variation of "meh." Different strokes for different folks.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-12 10:54 am (UTC)Heh. This makes him sound like Young Man Ebenezer Scrooge. He obsessed over his ambition and that's why his love broke off their engagement.
I don't think it was a bad idea for Lily to be the catalyst for Snape to leave the DEs. His information, linked to his ambition, put her in danger and, in the end, got her killed. That's a huge wake-up call for anyone. That she remained his only reason for 'being on the side of light' is, IMO, unrealistic.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-12 10:27 pm (UTC)I'm sorry to say, but I can't find it within me to like anything about the Snape/Lily plot. Having her be the sole catalyst for Snape leaving the Death Eaters doesn't show anything of him questioning the DE's ideologies or tactics. It implies that if it were not for Lily, he would be a happy little Death Eater terrorizing muggleborns. There was no goodness within him of his own personhood; he needed a perfect and pure Gryffindor girl to show him the way.
And yes, it's even more disappointing that Lily remains his only motivation. If he grew beyond her, fine, then maybe I could've stomached Lily being the linchpin for his turn. But he didn't. JKR makes it clear that he does everything for her. He doesn't care about his students, colleagues, the Wizarding World, innocent people getting hurt, Harry, Dumbledore, or even his young Slytherins like Draco. The only thing motivating him to take down a dangerous maniac is... his childhood crush that rejected him and hooked up with his bully? How ridiculous.
And incredibly unrealistic, as you've said. JKR wrote Snape as someone who's spiteful and unforgiving to those who have wronged him. But he never directs his ire towards Lily? The girl who dropped him and presumably never felt a speck of regret for their failed friendship? She's oh so special that even mean and cruel Snape can't dislike her?
And how come no one mentions Snape's supposed amazing tight-knit friendship with Lily? If they were so close, why doesn't Sirius or Lupin say something to Harry? Why doesn't Sirius throw it in Snape's face to get a rise out of him? Why doesn't Lupin (or Peter) tell Harry that Lily had another friend besides the Marauders? Why doesn't Dumbledore early on attempt to manipulate Harry in trusting Snape by mentioning that Snape knew his mother and cared for her? Why don't the Malfoys bring up Snape's dalliance with a mere "mudblood" girl? Or the other Death Eaters like Bellatrix? Why don't any of the Hogwarts teachers who knew Snape when he was a student mention his friendship with a Gryffindor girl? Snape and Lily's relationship was so significant and wonderful that NO ONE has anything to say about it to Harry? Even as an aside?
It's sloppy. JKR took the laziest and easiest route possible with Snape's character and diminished him in the process. I remember after reading HBP and thinking that the two worst things that could be done to Snape is:
1) making him loyal to Voldemort all along.
2) making him in love with Lily and having his entire life revolve around her.
The one positive thing I can say is that at least she didn't give us the first scenario. Or both. That would've been a nightmare of epic proportions....
no subject
Date: 2019-01-13 11:04 am (UTC)Totally agree that this supposed friendship would have been mentioned at some point, especially when Snape was seen camping out in front of the Gryffindor tower entrance. That's extreme, and it's very noticeable. I could see Sirius especially rubbing Snape's nose in it, and the fact that, as a DE, he'd gotten his best (only) friend killed. In fact, getting his best friend killed and having only one friend are two topics about which Sirius would have waxed long and I could very well see him doing it in front of the kids so he demeans Snape's role as teacher.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-13 10:34 pm (UTC)I've read meta and essays explaining how Snape did grow beyond Lily and began to care for others but was too emotionally stunted to see his actions as separate from his idolization of Lily. As interesting as that interpretation is, I don't think JKR intended it. She wrote Snape as a two-dimensional ex-Death Eater who obsessed over Lily and dedicated his life for her. As much as I'd love to think she intended for something more nuanced and different, I don't think canon!Snape was meant to be anything more than a pitiful static Lily-haunted creature. It's probably the reason why she was perplexed (and offended) in interviews when talking about fans liking Snape. What IS there to like about a man who only cares about his childhood crush and nothing and nobody else? Fans, including myself, gave Snape depth and complexity that JKR never wanted or planned for him.
And JKR conveniently having no one mention the friendship or interaction between popular Gryffindor Lily and unpopular Slytherin Snape is unbelievable. It's another example of her being too focused on creating a "sneaky" plot twist instead of writing characters as real people.
Sirius wouldn't have hesitated for a single moment throwing insults about Snape's friendship with muggleborn Lily while hanging out with Death Eaters. If I were in Sirius's shoes, I would've spat in his face how he got Harry's mother killed, his one and only friend. It would've been a spectacular way of hurting Snape and simultaneously making Harry hate Snape even more. But JKR had to keep the Snape/Lily twist hush hush, so Sirius draws a blank on the greasy Slytherin kid being seen with James's future wife.
And the teachers not mentioning anything is even more preposterous. Everyone can talk on and on how Snape and James hated each other, but Snape's connection with Lily is a big secret everyone keeps to themselves. Uh-huh.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-13 06:24 pm (UTC)1) making him loyal to Voldemort all along.
2) making him in love with Lily and having his entire life revolve around her.
The one positive thing I can say is that at least she didn't give us the first scenario. Or both. That would've been a nightmare of epic proportions....
Actually in hands of better writer I can see a character like that working quite well and being interesting.
A double agent torn between hating his master for killing love of his life and working with people who try to kill a man with whose goals he agrees.
But for it to work author would need to do quite trough reworking of HP plot and world building. And Rowling sucks at both world building and character development.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-13 09:22 pm (UTC)And no person in this world, no matter how emotionally stunted they are, would have one single motivation pushing them through life. People are more complex than that. It's one of the many reasons why I hate the Snape/Lily plot line and can't find anything positive about it.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-14 08:49 am (UTC)An Intellectual one (his career and political ideology) vs Emotional (his emotions towards Lily and Voldemort). This scenario isn't very original, but in hands of skilled writer could be very interesting.
As I mentioned, we would need to change A LOT in HPverse. For example Voldemort couldn't just be this stereotypical cartoon villain, but character with coherent plans and motivations.
I'm not big fan of writers who spend way too much time on world building without proper pay off, but Rowling's world building is bland, unoriginal and boring. Most of it falls into one of 2 categories: either they are borrowed from other place and twisted until they became the most boring and safe version of themselves (Horcruxes, House Elves, Vellas) or they make no sense/don't fit with the rest of world building (Voldemort's ritual).
What else we have? Action scenes? Confusing and/or boring. Interesting plot lines and character development? Nope, rejected in favour of showing off how great is Harry or how much of underdog he is. Riveting dialogue? Good joke!
About the only thing she is good at are descriptions, but even then it's very specific kind of descriptions: idyllic, homey descriptions of life. The best fragments of her books that I dismantled up to this day are description of Diagonal Alley from PS and descriptions of life at Burrow.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-14 10:17 am (UTC)As for JKR's world building, perhaps I'm being too lenient. I thought books 1-4 did an okay job, especially when they were primarily focused for children. But books 5-7 took a different tone and tried to be mature and present a "bigger" and more complicated world. I do agree there are many problems within Rowling's vision of a Wizarding World. From her portrayal of racism (muggles and muggleborns) to slavery (house elves) and other serious subjects almost being humorized (bullying, child abuse and neglect, etc), it seems like her world is backwards and lacking in innovation. I don't know how to adequately explain it, but the bigger Rowling tried to make her universe, the more lackluster it became. As I've said before, I think PoA was when she peaked in everything she had to offer as a writer, including world building and characterization.
no subject
Date: 2019-01-17 12:13 am (UTC)At first everything was new, but as she continued to build she does not stop and think - how does this fit in with what I've already established?
no subject
Date: 2019-01-17 03:21 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2019-01-17 05:15 pm (UTC)The world, the story, the characters, the houses, the hero, the villain, the conclusion - it wasn't meant to be that deep.
If JKR kept the books as a straightforward fun story set in a magical school where crazy shenanigans happen to the hero, then it would've been fine. But she teased hidden depths, possibilities for complicated moralities, and characters growing beyond what they're meant to be and...never followed through on any of it.
I have to say, I'm thankful I found a place to express my criticisms of the books. I don't hate them; I'll always have a soft spot for HP because of my childhood memories and there are some things I like. But, re-reading the books as an adult opened my eyes to the flaws and downsides.
I've been thinking about writing a post on how strangely JKR treats child abuse/neglect in her books. It unsettled me how Harry's experience with the Dursleys is portrayed as nonchalant or comical while other characters, like Snape and Tom Riddle, have their childhood backgrounds conveyed in a more serious and dire manner. I'm not sure if I want to get too into it but it's been on my mind as one of the many things that bothered me about the books.