OotP Chapter Seventeen

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

• The chapter title indicates we're getting into one of JKR's critiques of beaurocracy and society at large. Spoiler: the solution to all the problems of both is putting Harry and Hermione in charge of everything.



• Harry's happy there are people who don't think he's a lying weirdo. Harry is a very high-maintenance hero.



• Harry's happiness lasts a whole paragraph before being replaced by insides that are pulsing with rage(!!). ETA: I think his chest monster is gestating. So counting back, clearly Harry was impregnated with it at the Hogshead.



• Umbridge has disbanded all legitimate clubs, thus making Hermione's illegitimate club even more illegitimate if only that were possible. Yeah, I know Hermione spent a lot of page space in the previous chapter telling us their club was legitimate, but everybody knew it wasn't.



• You know, it's even more of a tragedy there's no real legal system in the WW because the one profession Hogwarts seems to really prepare students for is that of Defense Attorney. If there's one thing you learn here it's how to present whatever you do, from torture to assault to blackmail to murder as justified, correct and probably deserving of a medal.



• I find it refreshing the way Ron's suspicions are so transparently stupid and personal they can be seen as transparently stupid and personal without fear they're supposed to be objective. He just always assume it's the blokes he doesn't like what done it...even when Marietta begins wearing a tee-shirt to practices that says, "I find this all very dodgy and I'm getting ready to squeal."



• *sporfle* I'm sorry, did Ron just refer to Hermione as "honorable and trustworthy?" So much so that she can't imagine anyone being otherwise? It's the opposite, Ron. See also: Dumbledore, Albus.



• Note that he doesn't take it back when Hermione reveals she's put a disfiguring charm on the parchment without the knowledge of the suckers who signed it.



• Note also Hermione makes it seem as if said charm is actual useful in ways it isn't.



• I don't get why Harry lies to Prof. Binns about not feeling well. The whole class just saw him get his owl. Would a teacher really not let you take your hurt pet to get help?



• Then again, I'm still puzzling over why Hermione lied to Prof. McGonagall about why she was in the bathroom in PS/SS.



• Harry wishes Hagrid were here. Because he apparently wants to make this all that much worse.



• Thank goodness the bad guys can't actually take out something as big as an owl. Intercepting a letter's lot harder than taking over the world./*snerk



• ETA: Okay, they CAN take out an owl, at least if the owner helpfully traps it in a cage for them. Too bad Harry wasn't able to let Hedwig fly on her own in DH because...because then we wouldn't all learn an Important Lesson About Death.



• Hermione has figured out that somebody tried to intercept Hedwig. Thank God Sirius was using the special code language. "Same time, Same place," would read as total gibberish to somebody who wasn't in the know.



• And thank goodness Sirius was able to send this letter, at least, because it's not like he would be able to show up in the fireplace without warning like he did the last time.



• Btw, can the kids not use the fire themselves to warn Sirius?



• Malfoy's gone to Umbridge and she's given the Slytherin Quidditch team permission to play. Clearly evil is at work.



• Shouldn't Montague have gone to her since he's captain? Did it really require Ministry connections to be allowed to play Quidditch?



• Also, btw, I'd like to think that Draco used that interview with Umbridge to put his house forward to start using Umbridge to benefit Slytherin. He may have suggested the Squad himself when he saw how the woman responded to flattery and anti-Potter sentiments. ETA: Nah, that assumes far too many brains in Slytherin House. And too much ambition as well, sadly.



• This is where I started wondering if Neville was being affected by something, when he flew at Draco, because how would he have kept his secret for so long if he always flew at anyone who made a loony face? Surely this can't be the first time somebody's made a joke like Malfoy's in his presence. Would Harry hit someone for pretending to kill someone dead because his parents were...Oh wait, he probably would. And they'd deserve it too!



• Harry tells Neville that Crabbe and Goyle would have torn him apart so we know to give a) Neville credit for being very brave for moving to attack Malfoy and b) blame Crabbe and Goyle for tearing Neville apart even though they didn't actually lay a hand on him. Bastards.



• Umbridge mentions Snape's class is advanced...Snape's abilities as a teacher really get validated in this book.



• Not that this makes it any more horrible that he's given Harry more sleepless nights with more homework...though this is kind of diluted by the fact that we've already been told more than once that Hermione's managing far more work far more easily. Harry's drudgery is always surpassed by Hermione's normal life, so get over it, Harry.



• I have no idea why Hermione's nagging Harry not to skive off Divination when we know it's a joke class and she cares so little about it she told off the teacher and quit, especially when he's going to be working on a real class instead. Swot=/=brilliant genius.



• Poor Hermione, forced to live in perpetual Intervention-mode. It's kind of amazing she's never told off. Apparently the phrase, "What are you, my mother?" has never caught on in the WW.



• ETA: Sorry, that phrase obviously *has* caught on in the WW. Only there it's an expression of true love: "What are you, my mother? Oh my god, you are! Marry me and give me babies to name after her asap!"



• Neville slipped off his pouffe. I didn't know Malfoy was in this class. /*immaturity



• Good lord, someone's come up with a case for non-offensive response to magical attack? And lived to tell the tale? That's pinko commie Voldemort talk! F*****g Ghandi!



• I like it when Hermione is so blatantly harsh and mean about the stuff Fred and George know as being flashy and no use to anyone. Seriously, I like Hermione the best in this book when she's being openly judgmental and mean because it hints at a personality and some sort of motivation that might actually go somewhere. ETA: Not that it does, but I like Hermione when she's being a flawed character.



• Harry can't do his essay for Snape partially because Hermione is distracting him with all her sniffing and huffing, which would be really annoying. *Makes theory about Hermione purposefully sabotaging Harry to be sure to be needed.* (ETA: Which I later wrote on my lj.)



• Molly's warning about the DA is very appropriate. Go figure.



• Why doesn't Sirius Polyjuice himself into other people to walk around? Oh of course, it's the law of Wizard forgetfulness--you can only remember this stuff when it doesn't interfere with the plot.



• Dolores' stubby hand with lots of rings (old fashioned and ugly, just like women like her!) chases Sirius out of the scene and that's a great image.



• You'd think a Muggleborn would start itching for a mobile phone about now. For all their magic they're easily and completely cut off from everyone.

Next up is Dumbledore's Army and I'm queasy at the prospect.





Designated Hero
Harry and Hermione, King and Queen of the DA 4-evah!

IITS:
Was that note of Sirius' really necessary? Imagine if Hedwig had lost her life over "Same time, Same place." ETA: It would have been a far nobler and less pointless than the death she got.

Also: Sirius is a Wizard and they can't figure out any way he could leave the house without being captured? Really?

Informed Attributes
Honorable and trustworthy. ROTFL!

Final Score: 4

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

* Note also Hermione makes it seem as if said charm is actual useful in ways it isn't.

The first time I read this scene, I filed Hermione's actions under "school story ethics". Rough justice and all that. If someone's stealing Jimmy's candy, the reader's expected to point and laugh when the candy thief gets caught in Jimmy's elaborate trap that probably involves GBH. Fine. However, when you think about it, Hermione's secret jinx is in itself a betrayal of trust. It's a pre-emptive trap. Now, obviously she couldn't warn people before they sign, unless she's prepared to Obliviate anyone who chickens out. But why not afterwards? "Remember, you'll be very, very sorry if you tell. I mean it." I'm sure she'd be believed.

To be fair, that didn't really bother me at the time. The truly disturbing part is how the jinx doesn't work, and what it tells you about Hermione's, or rather JKR's priorities. It doesn't prevent the jinxee from speaking (Langlock, anyone?). It didn't even alert the DA that they'd been ratted out. Its one and only function is to punish the person who tells on them. Never mind that they all got caught, as long as Marietta's disfigured for life it's all good.

* ETA: Okay, they CAN take out an owl, at least if the owner helpfully traps it in a cage for them. Too bad Harry wasn't able to let Hedwig fly on her own in DH because...because then we wouldn't all learn an Important Lesson About Death.

The inimitable JKR touch again. She kills Harry's owl to show us how scary and terrible this war is, then asks the fans, "Why are you upset about this thing that I wrote to upset you? She was just an owl! You should be upset about the human who died!" I'd forgive her the note of surprise since after all, she did her best to make Hedwig as flat, wooden and furniture-like as she clearly finds all animals; but Moody was a far more minor character than Hedwig, and not particularly deep or likable either. Why is it hard to grasp that the hero's pet might mean more to readers than some borderline fascist old blowhard who Harry barely knew?

* Umbridge mentions Snape's class is advanced...Snape's abilities as a teacher really get validated in this book.

Snape must be one of the best teachers at Hogwarts. Which isn't saying much when you look at the competition, but if he'd leave off bullying individual students he'd be pretty good by normal Muggle standards. At least he wants all his students to do well, even if he's a jerk about it.

-L

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

If the hex it had just been the one scene where they appear without all the gleeful references to how it's not going away, it would have at least been just like rough justice. All the references get sadistic.

But even outside of that, what bugs me is that first nobody ever realizes that Hermione screwed up, that she left their club wide open to betrayal--begged for it, really, by pushing all these people into it without making it clear they were signing their life away. Instead everybody acted like the plan was foolproof, as if Marietta being punished is the same as their not getting caught. Just as you said, the priorities are right there--not prevention but punishment. It's almost like she's hoping somebody will tell on them so that they get punished.

Also I lost respect for the other members of the DA that *nobody* objected when they found out about the hex. I certainly would have. I just thought these other people had to be complete morons not to object to being tricked that way no matter how much they hated Marietta or hated that she told. It's like nobody can really believe in any other view than the one Hermione herself happens to have, when she's hardly objective.

And this is in a book where the author seems to think she's teaching people to *question* authority.

I think JKR needs to just accept that most of her deaths fall flat. At least they do for me. But the idea that we're supposed to care that Moody died just because the text essentially shouts at us that SOMEBODY DIED HERE! DEATH IS INCREDIBLY SERIOUS AND AWE-INSPIRING!

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

pushing all these people into it without making it clear they were signing their life away
It just occurred to me, this is essentially the same thing like Sirius states about his brother's idea of quitting Voldemort's group "you don't hand in your resignation with the Dark Lord". Yeah - you don't with Hermione either.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Exactly! Only with Voldemort you know that going on. This was the only study group with that kind of policy!

Of course, one should note that this falls on Hermione because Harry, the alleged leader of the group and the one who considers everybody out to get him, hasn't given a single thought to any of this stuff.

[polymechanos.livejournal.com]

And this is in a book where the author seems to think she's teaching people to *question* authority.

Not to mention that Zacharias, the one DA member who actually seems to ask questions that any reasonable person would ask rather than blindly accepting that what Harry and co. say is true by default, is constantly upheld as being a despicable person because of it, and of course he runs out at the battle in DH (though then again, looking at the headache-inducing logistics of that and purposely ignoring the fact that the battle read, at least to me, as a teenager's fantasy of an awesome fight where poorly trained kids take on conveniently incompetent bad guys, he was probably the most reasonable student by far).

JKR's mixed messages about morals are confusing as hell, and I'd probably mind a whole lot less if she actually acknowledged that the heroes are flawed and frequently hypocritical. But that would involve her pulling her 'good' characters off of a pedestal, which she seems incapable of doing.

(Oh yeah, and just before this comes off as too creepy -- long-time reader, first time commenter, if that's all right. You guys are awesome.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh god yes! That was one of the weirdest things in the last 2 books. I was surprised to see that there were people who didn't think it was odd, who basically thought ZS came off like such a complete jerk that he deserved everything he got. Meanwhile most of the people I knew thought he was a red herring there to teach us that asking questions *doesn't* make you the bad guy, and figured Harry would work with him in the future. Instead he gets punished throughout HBP and then gets this last shot of him pushing firsties and puppies out of the way to run away from the battle, even though he'd actually shown himself to be pretty committed to fighting in the past!

Thanks for commenting!

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

Zacharias is really just a wonderful example of the books as a whole. We're told he's a total asshole, but we're shown that all he does is ask questions.
There's room for someone in the books to question intelligently while still being invested in the fight against evil; he gets victimised in the Slytherins place in HBP (and in HBP it seemed like there still may be one last shot at some depth in the series generally); he has the same name as the Hufflepuff Cup owner...
And of course as ever, the simplest explanation - that someone who dares to question Harry is 100% deficient - is naturally true.
I guess we had clues to his true cowardly alliances, though. Where was he when the other Hufflepuff boys are bravely outnumbering the Slytherins on the train and hexing them into jelly?! What a pinko.

[(Anonymous)]

We're told he's a total asshole, but we're shown that all he does is ask questions.

Questions are assholish in and of themselves, apparently. "He kept on and on asking about what happened at the Ministry and in the end he annoyed me so much I hexed him". A line that, oddly enough, leaves it up to the reader to decide whether Zacharias was in fact being obnoxious or whether Ginny overreacted. Since we've already been shown that violent overreaction is Ginny's middle name, I'm led to assume the encounter went like this:

ZACH: Hey, what happened at the Ministry?
GINNY: Evil Harry-questioner sighted! Targeting!
ZACH: I just wanted to know --
GINNY *hexes*

Well, it's one way to get out of having to say, "I was total deadweight and had to be rescued by Luna".

-L

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

Well, it's one way to get out of having to say, "I was total deadweight and had to be rescued by Luna".
claps enthusiastically. If this com does HBP again, as has been suggested, I'll have a look out whether my impression is correct, that Ginny's aggression seems to take place on unsuspecting victims (zacharias asking questions, Zacharias commenting on Quidditch...) whereas in a fight she reverts to useless damsel in distress...

[(Anonymous)]

Not to mention that Zacharias, the one DA member who actually seems to ask questions that any reasonable person would ask rather than blindly accepting that what Harry and co. say is true by default

It is even funnier than that, IMHO. Apart from the Patronus (and frankly, IMHO Hermione should have been all other Harry to teach her that as soon as he mastered it himself) the only things that Harry could reasonably "teach" his fellow students were detailed descriptions of his confrontations with TEH EVIL and his tournament tasks. Then, they could have discussed tactics in the rare cases any were involved, etc. All other spells that Harry knows in OoTP, one or more people in the DA should know as well or better. For instance, judging by DH the Shield spell is a standard 6th year stuff - i.e. the twins yearmates should have learned it from Crouch Jr., who was no slouch at teaching duelling. Everything else extracurricular was taught to Harry by Hermione and again is probably part of the syllabus of the senior years.

Re: Hermione's hex - isn't it interesting that she bound people by it even _before_ the DA was forbidden? Technically it was within the rules when they signed in. Supremely useless as any kind of saufguard too, of course.

[polymechanos.livejournal.com]

I think that's also related to another thing I don't get about the series -- which is how advanced the spells everyone learns is supposed to be. I mean, it always seems like Hermione's the only on in their year who can do anything taught in class, so either magic is so ridiculously advanced that no one can do it (doubtful, or it wouldn't get flung around the series so often by everyone) or everyone is just incredibly moronic (more likely, given the general zombie-like behaviour in their universe). Then the Patronus is supposed to be this SUPER-DIFFICULT-OMG spell and then all of these DA kids -- and since they weren't exactly recruited based on talent, they can't all be particularly skilled, naturally or otherwise -- can do it? I suppose one could argue that 'Harry's just a really good teacher!', but that always came off more as something JKR tells me to think than anything.

I know slagging off on the DA apparently makes me a bad person who supports tyranny or whatever it is now, but it really boggles me how they're supposed to be this awesome rebellion when they really don't do very much. Even in DH -- and admittedly, we don't really see the story from their perspective -- it sounds like all they really did was play some pranks and graffiti some walls (but did anyone ACTUALLY get recruited into the new DA or was it just a slogan for the sake of having a catchy catchphrase? I mean, they didn't exactly give instructions for how to join, it seems), and then pretty much fell apart by Christmas. Although I'm definitely getting ahead of myself there for this chapter, so I'll stop now.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't say that every death fell flat. Just every death in DH. I cried when I realized (about half a page ahead) that Cedric Diggory was going to die and I found Sirius's death deeply disturbing. I went through all those stages, denial, anger....

I was also oddly sad at Amelia Bones's death. And Emmeline Vance. We'd only ever seen them once, but Bones seemed especially nice and I thought for a long time that there must be some deep strategic reason for her death (to get her out of the way of Scrimgeour's appointment?) Nope.

In DH, only Snape's death was even half-way affecting. Well, and Regulus's death, but I don't think that one really counts. And it wasn't so much for me that Snape died, but that he sacrificed his memories as he died. It was more affecting to see in his memories how truly wretched his life under Dumbledore was. Death must have been a sweet release.

I might have found Lupin and Tonks's deaths tragic, if they hadn't become so annoying up to that point, and if their deaths hadn't been treated as just another annoying detail in the midst of so many others.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I will always admire Cedric's death. Though thinking back I think the main reason it's so powerful is the great characterization of Mr. Diggory. So along with benefitting from being the first of the "lights are on, but nobody's home!!!" descriptions of a dead body, she really sold me on just how devestated this ordinary man was going to be at losing his son.

I should admit I didn't even *get* that Lupin and Tonks died at first. I thought they were supposed to be asleep and then I realized oh no, they bought it. Probably they were trying to fight while simultaneously Remus was trying to ditch her and she was wanting to talk about their relationship.:-)

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

Don't forget the tragedy of Frank Bryce! He had a hard war. *sobs*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Oh yeah! Never forget!

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

Wait for JKR's next interview to clarify that you weren't SUPPOSED to feel sorry for Amos Diggory (maybe you're thinking of the guy in the movie?!) - he totally questioned Harry's Quidditch skillz!1!!

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

LOL! OMG, you're right. Obviously that guy deserved to lose his son. If he'd only properly reverenced Harry...

[(Anonymous)]

Wait for JKR's next interview to clarify that you weren't SUPPOSED to feel sorry for Amos Diggory (maybe you're thinking of the guy in the movie?!) - he totally questioned Harry's Quidditch skillz!1!!

LOL! I was expecting that the Diggories would join the Order and do something significant against Voldy, but clearly loss of a son can't motivate people like that, only adoration of Harry can! Of course, I thought that magical creatures would be significant in the last battle either and not just as token presences, so there.

BTW, isn't it funny how Diggory totally didn't even come _close_ to fairly beating Harry and how Hufflepuff didn't have a hope at the Cup? And how Diggory had nothing to recommend him as a champion except being a mediocre Quidditch player and really nice to Harry over that game? Geez, JKR really needed to build up the supposed main rival to Harry in GoF more. In fact, isn't it funny how she wouldn't even use the normal Hollywood sports flick routine and have Harry lose until the last event? No, he had to be first all the way, come hell and high water.
Via cheating from the outside source of course - but _that_ got forgotten completely in the later volumes, just as the fact that the Stone was perfectly fine and unobtainable to Quirrelmort, until Harry decided to stick his nose in and that only DD's appearance prevented disaster. History is written by the victors, indeed.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

I might have found Lupin and Tonks's deaths tragic
We didn't find it tragic, because it didn't occur in DH - JKR murdered them in HBP already characterwise - who cares for Zombies?

[(Anonymous)]

I think JKR needs to just accept that most of her deaths fall flat. At least they do for me. But the idea that we're supposed to care that Moody died just because the text essentially shouts at us that SOMEBODY DIED HERE! DEATH IS INCREDIBLY SERIOUS AND AWE-INSPIRING!

The most amusing thing about this is that I couldn't put my hand on my heart and say that those exact words didn't appear somewhere in Deathly Hallows.

Well okay, maybe not those *exact* words but words to that effect.

...with them like a presence indeed.

- Dan Hemmens

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

That will always be one of my favorite lines. Death was with them like something that was with them.

There's also all that almost meta commentary about how "it seemed like everything should stop, the world should stop spinning on its axis..." when somebody dies. It's almost like saying, "It seemed like this should make some very impressive point to the reader and give them a new undersatnding about death...too bad it totally doesn't.

[(Anonymous)]

I know, it's like (in a roundabout way) that bit in [i]Revenge of the Sith[/i] when Anakin says - completely straight faced - "From My Point of View, the Jedi are Evil!"

You can just imagine Lucas sitting at his typewriter thinking "hmm ... the important thing in this scene is that, from Anakin's point of view, the Jedi are evil. Now how can I best convey that..."

Rowling's Death descriptions are just the same. "I need to find some way of highlighting the way that death can seem really ... sudden and really ... complete and that it's almost like ... like a presence in the room with you ..."

GBH

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

If someone's stealing Jimmy's candy, the reader's expected to point and laugh when the candy thief gets caught in Jimmy's elaborate trap that probably involves GBH.

I read that and at first thought, "Great blue herons?"

(Sorry, my mom's a birdwatcher, and that's her standard abbreviation!)

It didn't even alert the DA that they'd been ratted out.

To be fair, it does if the ratter doesn't flee.

Re: GBH

[t0ra-chan.livejournal.com]

But it only does so after the fact, the hex doesn't warn them that they have been rated out when it actually happens. The only reason they managed to get out of the RoR was because of Dobby. And in the end even that didn't help because Pansy found the parchment with everyone's name, which Hermione pinned to the wall for all to see in the RoR. The only reason the whole DA isn't punished by Umbridge is because simply JKR didn't write it, even though it makes no sense considering the kind of character she is.

Re: GBH

[cressida0201.livejournal.com]

But it only does so after the fact, the hex doesn't warn them that they have been rated out when it actually happens.

Sure. I'm just saying that it could have a notification/identification aspect. It's not like ... I dunno ... giving the ratter a stomachache or something.

Re: GBH

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

To be fair, it does if the ratter doesn't flee.

It's more like it could, as a secondary plus, under the right circumstances. But chances are it wouldn't because the ratter doesn't have to flee, she just has to not be seen by somebody in the DA. And given that she's just broken out in a huge thing on her face, there's a good chance she won't be.

As it is, the kids are rounded up with little problem, their only warning coming from iirc Dobby, and Marietta hasn't fled.

Re: GBH

[(Anonymous)]

I read that and at first thought, "Great blue herons?"

Hee! There probably are revenge stories that involve birdwatching, at that. Nearly all public schools in fiction seem to be surrounded by beautiful scenery.

Originally, iirc, I assumed the rationale behind the jinx was something like this. Jinxes are single purpose, so Hermione has to choose between tipping off the DA, silencing the snitch, or identifying them so the DA will know who did it. With the latter option there's a chance of getting the others as a bonus (it's not unlikely that the person will clam up for fear of making the pustules even worse). But, that interpretation doesn't square with JKR's gloating interviews ("I loathe a traitor").

-L