OotP Chapter Eighteen
Feb. 22nd, 2008 10:57 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslock*Recently I remember somebody saying something about even how when Harry is upset he's still so kind that he's sweet to animals. In fact Harry is as careless about animals in his anger as he is about people. He's obnoxious to Hedwig and apologizes, and here he squeezes a bullfrog violently, much like he squeezed the bowtruckle. No, I'm not accusing him of animal abuse, but he's no Francis of Assisi either, as I remember him being described. He's nice to animals when the text is making a point about how awful people are mean to animals, and then the text forgets about it.
*Speaking of animals, the class is practicing charms on animals that are quite annoyed at them for doing it, but that doesn't count as being mean to animals.
*Hermione is practicing her silencio charm, which will later completely disarm DEs, the idea being that clever underdogs with less power can outwit far more sophisticated enemies, though what comes across is more that DEs fight so kids can beat them.
*Are we honestly supposed to believe nobody ever thought of silencing somebody so they couldn't do a spell? I'm surprised this isn't a common Wizarding Punishment for crimes. How exactly do adults fight if not by doing stuff like this? There's not that much stuff that's required in fighting, after all.
*Of course, if you go down that road you start wondering why anybody fights using anything but AK, expelliarimus and stupefy.
*Harry is only especially gifted in cool magic, while Hermione continues to surpass him in all things banal. To review: the twins do flashy things that are of no use to anyone (except they really are), Hermione does non-flashy stuff that's very useful, Harry does everything connected to angst and evil. Ron's just generally useless. Oh, and Ginny does the bat-bogey hex which is more awesome than everyone else except Harry's stuff combined.
*Angelina says she thinks McGonogall went to Dumbledore, who then forced Umbridge let Gryffindor reform the Quidditch team, as if that's a great thing for Dumbledore to do, proving his awesomeness. You know, as headmaster shouldn't Dumbledore being looking out for these kinds of things anyway? Should somebody really have to go to him and demand this? You'd think the whole school would be petitioning him.
*What to make of Hermione's sudden misgivings about the DA? As a character trait for Hermione that works--she's always thinking and insecure underneath so questions herself (unless somebody challenges her, in which case she's stubborn and won't listen). But in this book it feels to me like another handy way to use Hermione to herd thought processes. She makes up the club, but then must also be the person to question the club while everybody else just reacts to her, because Harry and Ron are too dull-witted to think at all.
*So checking off Hermione's "Expositional To Do" list, now she's got the DA established she can start dropping hints that Something's Coming with Sirius, etc.
*If Hermione more often questioned along the same lines I am, I'd probably find this more satisfying.
*Hermione sounds like Ron's mother, according to Ron. ::shudder::
*We're not in fanon anymore. The kids can't just do an umbrella spell so they don't get rained on.
*Seriously, Wizards came up with spell to make people dance or turn their legs to jelly, but nobody's come up with an umbrella spell. The Wizarding World in a nutshell.
*Last year Harry could feel when Voldemort was feeling hatred; now he can feel his joy too. Are they just more connected now or is that significant? Like, is there something to the fact that Harry can feel Voldemort's joy, like that they're becoming more alike? ETA: Yes, they did become more alike, but I don't think I was supposed to notice.
*I hope Voldemort's feeling Harry's feelings too. Imagine being stuck with a teenager's mood swings: "He's feeling pleased…somebody likes him." "He's in a snit. Nobody understands him." No wonder he wants Harry dead. It's like being mentally linked to Pitt the Younger from Blackadder.
* "The Weapon" is back, taunting us with a far more interesting plan that the one Voldemort is actually using. Damn that weapon!
* I kind of keep wishing the elves would rebel—but only to tell Hermione to stop intentionally cluttering up the Common Room that they have to clean. ETA: Rebel? Nonsense! Happy masters make happy slaves make happy children!
*This was also where in my first reading I thought we'd find out Sirius or Harry or Neville was being befuddled. Is that information about befuddlement there for future developments, or just so Harry can drift off to sleep thinking about Sirius being reckless? ETA: Guess we got that answer--it's the latter.
*I guess that's why Harry never actually accepts the fact that his own mistakes led to Sirius' death since as usual the real answer is right here for us. It wasn't Snape's fault, but it wasn't Harry's either. It was Sirius' fault because he's very very reckless.
*Dobby the Free Elf has so much more dignity than Kreacher the rebellious slave, the way he looks up at Harry with "positive admiration" and bows so that his nose touches the floor. See, Hermione knows the score here. Forcing someone into slavery isn't that great. Much better to have someone who bows and scrapes and does your bidding just because they adore you because you made them free. ETA: Or gave them a cheap necklace. Kreacher, you're still dead to me.
*Props to Harry here for being smart enough not to run off to see the RoR the second he hears about it, even if he has to hear Hermione's voice to do it.
*I can sort of understand Hermione/Snape when you see the kind of relationship she has to authority. Hermione feels mostly confident about something when a Good Adult (usually Dumbledore) is attached to it, which is more about emotion than logic. Which is good, because if you're really relying only on your brains, you're probably evil. The heart does much better thinking.
*However, this quality also makes her seem younger than 16, because it seems like the same impulse she had at 11. ETA: On second thought, it just makes her seem like a Wizard. The end of this journey is the same as the beginning: look up to Dumbledore. And then look up to Harry.
*Does the map show where everybody in the school is? I'm surprised you can find anybody with the hundreds of dots that must be moving around. ETA: After HBP I guess we know that it does show everybody. I'm surprised you can read anything on it.
*There's no mention of a solitary Draco practicing piano somewhere, so apparently it doesn't pick up fanon characters.
*Nice that all the books in the room are careful to imply these books are for people being attacked by others. I'm surprised there wasn't one called, "Cursing for Good Guys" of "Everything is Self-Defense If I'm Doing It."
*What is a dark wizard, exactly? Dark detectors are supposed to be able to tell—would it go off if one of the Slytherins walked in? Is anyone ever surprised to set one off? (Harry's used an Unforgivable, for instance—and what about Snape? He's described as a Dark Wizard.) ETA: Well, that won't ever be answered. Dark Magic? It's what those other people do!
*Harry mentions how the detectors can be fooled, because like so much else it's all-powerful but also totally useless as the plot demands.
*Hermione insists on giving Harry authority, because Gryffs love authority when they're the ones possessing it. Hermione also wants to name the group for "team spirit." You know, that thing that's so useful in singling out traitors and pressuring people to go along with the crowd.
*Note nobody says, "Wtf do we need a leader and team spirit for? We're not a team, we're here to learn DADA. Piss off with your team spirit."
*Can you imagine the way the Gryffindors would have reacted if the group had elected somebody else? As if any of them would bow to Terry Boot.
*Ginny comes up with the name Dumbledore's Army and everybody laughs cause she so rebellious and cool and witty. Not to mention right. Defense Association is far too neutral. This is an army for Dumbledore.
*At the next meeting perhaps they'll hand out the uniforms. Hufflepuffs? You get the red shirts.
*Hermione pins the damn paper with that title to the wall, for easy reference once they get caught. I'm sure whoever finds it will know it's meant to be sarcastic.
*Harry shuts up Zach Smith by revealing expelliarimus helped him against Voldemort. Yes, Zach just opens his mouth "stupidly" after claiming that charm wouldn't help against Voldemort. What else can he say? Harry Potter pwns all!
*But again, WHY would anyone think that Expelliarimus wouldn't work? What are all these other spells the DEs are supposed to be using? Wouldn't that spell either be something everybody used or the DEs had a good defense against? It's like if this was a Muggle class and Harry said, "Let's work on punching," and Zach said, "THAT won't be much good in a fight! Bad guys don't merely HIT people!" just so Harry could say he hitting does indeed help against bad guys.
*I have this image, when Zach opens his mouth stupidly, of him thinking, "Why do I always have to feed lines to challenge Harry, only to be shocked into silence by Harry's easily anticipated response?" And people
* Usually Neville can't even perform a charm, much less focus it on something as small as a wand. Harry's mere presence fills him with that elusive confidence he needed. Only bad kids truly lack skill.
*WTF is with all the hostility toward Zach? I hate to think what might happen if, as in fanfic, Slytherins showed up to this thing. They'd have to wash them off the walls.
*Not that I can't see the twins doing this, but you'd think Zach would, uh, notice. His needing Harry to figure out the twins are hexing him and put a stop to it is a little emasculating, wouldn't you say?
*Btw, no, it's not bad of the twins to be hexing him from behind at all. They can obviously tell he's the kind of person who'll push tiny children out of the way in his cowardly race away from the bad guys. Can't you just tell how cowardly Zach is in this scene?
*If I were Marietta I'd look sour too, dragged along to this meeting so I could watch Harry and Cho butter each other up. I wonder just what their relationship is that she's willing to do this for Cho. Cho seems like a very high-maintenance friend. Marietta's probably already sat up with her nights, slipped her in after curfew and accompanied her to a free clinic for a pregnancy test by now. No wonder Cho feels guilty enough to defend her—she probably was privy to the stress Marietta was under all year. Cho here tells Harry flat-out that Marietta is getting pressured by her parents to have nothing to do with stuff like this (Cho's family don't seem to work for the Ministry).
*Not that this makes any impression on Harry. I think when Cho talks about Marietta and her problems and her family Harry just hears, "blah blah blah blah blah. You make me nervous."
I seemed to have forgotten Jabootu for this one. Go figure.
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Wish Fulfillment List
Date: 2008-02-28 06:23 pm (UTC)Oh, please make one!! *puppy dog eyes* Or maybe we could do a collective one in the whole group.
"I want a devoted servant whose whole existence is wrapped up in tending to my every whim - but I want him to want to do it out of admiration for my true awsomeness so I don't have to have any moral qualms about it."
Except I have to wonder why on earth she introduced SPEW, if that was her underlying idea. If it's lampshade-hanging, then it's hanging a really ugly lampshade which makes the whole thing look bad.
In fact, JKR isn't the first one with these ideas - go and look at Agatha Christie or Dorothy Sayers for it...
I'm trying to remember where the example of this is in Christie. Sayers' example would be Bunter, I assume--but I'll give her a pass on that because (1) I had a massive crush on Lord Peter myself in high school, and (2) Bunter's really quite awesome himself.
Re: Wish Fulfillment List
Date: 2008-03-02 08:13 pm (UTC)Don't we all. I still contend (as preposterous as it seems) that her IQ either took a dramatic dive by about 50 points between OotP and HBP or she was just fed up with the books and thus decided to tie up everything in the easiest (and thus most shallow) way possible. If she wanted to say something along the lines that Hermione meant well but overlooked the fact you can't judge everybody by your own feelings/ notions/ ideas and that what seems like slavery to one person may be a fulfilling life for someone else - then she should and could (!)have. But she didn't, essentially forgetting about it. The same thing with Ginny!Croft. Either decide you want the hero's girl sweet and helpless and waiting at home for him - or you want her to be spunky and kick-ass - but then let her do it! There was no sense in Harry taking the completely useless Ron with him (apart from the lake scene which was clearly constructed to give Ron at least one usefull moment)but leaving Ginny and her supposedly awsome bat bogey hex behind. Sorry, got on a rant here. What I wanted to say, was: IMO, there is no logic behind the SPEW arc in HP. Having discarded it, she fell back onto her middleclass dreams of being waited on like the real aristocracy is supposed (and envied for it) to be.
Hee hee, another Wimseylover! Yes, I was thinking of Bunter as the typical example although I agree Sayers gave him enough dignity and own interests (fotography!)to make his devotion at least bearable. In Christie, I might name Miss Lemon and Poirot's manservant George, but they are not so glaringly obvious in themselves. The point I am getting at, is the general assumption in both authors' work that a "good" servant is naturally content to serve 24/7. He/she has no interests outside their work, no private connections, let alone a serious love-affair or something. The only servants this is sort of tolerated are the lowly ranks like kitchen maids or gardeners or something and that in itself is often treated as a sign of relative moral unworthiness or stupidity. In fact, being a servant is viewed as a vocation, similar to taking religious vows in a monastery/ convent. You don't serve to earn a living, but you live to serve. Only, with a convent, you devote your life to a higher being, not a fellow human. What makes me sort of sick in this respect, is the all too transparent way of the (painfully middle class) authors to imagine themselves at the receiving end of that devotion - never on the giving one. As a reader, we are always on the level of the "gentry" - just like we are with Harry one of the pampered slave owners, not one of the slaves. That was Hermione's fault - she identified with the latter, until she learnt better...
Wishfulfillment lists? I'd love to do one (together with you and others), but I'm afraid, it will be difficult to leave anything out at all, because, in a sense, all HP is one. So, how do you propose to do this?
Re: Wish Fulfillment List
Date: 2008-03-05 11:49 am (UTC)May I point out that in case of Sayers and Christie those weren't dreams and imaginings, but fond memories? That is how things used to be pre-WW I as many memoirs and so on demonstrate. I have read Christie's own autobiography and they did have a couple of servants like that, not to mention that she had a secretary / nanny / friend who occupied basically a similar position later in the 20-ies and the 30-ies - which was unusual. See also Ishiguro's "The Remains of the Day" for an example of the same in a more glamorous household. It may seem strange to us now, but that's how things used to be, a whole class that used to exist and to have their own ideal of service.
Re: love affairs, it was very risky for women, so most wouldn't engage in them unless there was a serious likelihood of a forthcoming offer of marriage. After all, they could be dismissed for something like this and get a bad reputation preventing them from getting a new place. And there weren't many jobs open to women then.
As to the men they had their usual recourse. Anyway, a pretty large part of the population used to be single in Victorian/Edwardian England. Most would only marry if they felt that they had enough money to support a family. That's another reason why many female servants were quite cautious about marriage - due to the laws of the time, the husband would have gained control of their savings.
Re: Wish Fulfillment List
Date: 2008-03-05 04:41 pm (UTC)Re: Wish Fulfillment List
Date: 2008-03-05 04:40 pm (UTC)If she wanted to say something along the lines that Hermione meant well but overlooked the fact you can't judge everybody by your own feelings/ notions/ ideas and that what seems like slavery to one person may be a fulfilling life for someone else
I was actually half-hoping for that idea, because it would have been a nice way to keep Hermione from being infallible, as well as showing the pushy side of her nature, without making her hateful. (I have an unpopular confession to make: I don't hate Hermione. I no longer like her after the last two books, but I don't hate her either, and I just can't summon up the vitriol that gets hurled at her here. It's more that I'm terribly, terribly disappointed at what she became.)
But on the other hand, even while thinking that would be a great plot for Hermione, I never saw how JKR could spin it in a way that wouldn't come out sounding like supporting slavery in the real world. Part of me wonders whether she originally intended to make Hermione wrong, belatedly realized how people would see it, and simply dropped the plot rather than look bad. But then I have to wonder why she made Harry inherit Kreacher without a second thought. She could've, at a minimum, had Harry feeling very uncomfortable about being the owner of a House Elf, or gone further and had Harry free Kreacher.
The point I am getting at, is the general assumption in both authors' work that a "good" servant is naturally content to serve 24/7.
I don't know...I recall a quote from Christie about how she remembers the servants she grew up with as tyrants, the people who really ran the house and expected things to be done their way. JKR actually goes much further with the meekness of House Elves.
I suppose a lot of the difficulty comes from the fact that servants live in the same house as their employers, so they can't ever be truly off-duty in the way people can who go in to an office and then go home. The line of separation between "work" and "real life" is a lot thinner.
Wishfulfillment lists? I'd love to do one (together with you and others), but I'm afraid, it will be difficult to leave anything out at all, because, in a sense, all HP is one. So, how do you propose to do this?
Maybe just start writing them down in comments when we spot them, and anyone can join in? Then later someone can post a summary entry with all the examples noted, perhaps one entry for each book, and others can add to it.
Re: Wish Fulfillment List
Date: 2008-03-05 05:37 pm (UTC)So what on earth to do with that? Because ultimately--I've been participating in long discussions about whether the house elves are slaves are not and I think absolutely they are. Even if they find serving fulfilling, the main house elves we see both suffer from being slaves (not from serving) when they can't choose who they want to serve.
But there's the trouble--since they really are slaves Hermione isn't wrong at first to say that slavery is wrong. What she also could have done would be to have Hermione still believe that slavery is wrong but not know how to go about changing it so just have personal beliefs and behavior about it. But then she doesn't even do that--on the contrary, Harry himself inherits a slave (which nobody else in school even has) and she not only says nothing but happily enjoys the benefits. And changes her belief from being against slavery to supporting being a good mastery.
I think it was Montevilla who said, accurately imo, that this story would be great if its intended audience were children in a slave owning society, or even upper class children in a society with a servant class, who were being instructed to be kind to their slaves and servants. But since both Harry and Hermione start out as kids from our society, any way you look at it they're stepping backwards.
SPEW
Date: 2008-03-06 04:31 pm (UTC)Even if they find serving fulfilling, the main house elves we see both suffer from being slaves (not from serving) when they can't choose who they want to serve.
Saying that in the books and making Hermione change the focus of her campaign would be the obvious solution, so why didn't JKR just do it? *tears hair*
Re: SPEW
Date: 2008-03-07 04:29 pm (UTC)Reporter: Your books have a theme of racism with the wizards oppressing other races and half-bloods. Do you think this has changed how people think when they read them?
JKR: Do not think I am pessimistic but I think I am realistic about how much you can change deeply entrenched prejudice. So my feeling would be that if someone were a committed racist, possibly Harry Potter is not going to have effect.
I would hope that it would make people think. I mean, I do not write the books thinking what is my message for today, what is my moral, that is not how I set out to write a book at all. I am not trying to criticise or make speeches to you in any way, but at the same time, it would be great if the people thought about bullying behavior or racism.
The house-elves is really about slavery, isn’t it? The house-elves are slaves, so that is an issue that I think we probably all feel strongly about enough in this room already.