OotP Chapter Thirty-Three
Jun. 6th, 2008 09:50 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslock*I’m not sure if the "fight" in this chapter refers to the early physical battles or the later tedious bickering. ETA: Foreshadowing of DH?
*Umbridge is breathing raggedly, like an obscene phone call behind Harry. Unfortunately, after all the mentions of how squat etc. she is, I feel like it’s a dig at her weight.
*If Harry went to an American high school he’d sign everyone’s yearbook:
I can’t believe we made it through Transfig and Charms! Isn’t weird how all year I was going through horror and despair while you and everyone else didn’t have a care in the world not 20 feet away from me?—Harry.
p.s. Umbridge sucks!!!!
*Seriously, Harry is amazed that not 20 feet away hundreds of people are eating dinner. Meanwhile I'm amazed they don't appeal to any of these people for help instead of isolating themselves in the forest. Run into the dining room, ya'll! The other students will be far more help than centaurs you may or may not run into and might kill you if you do!
*I wonder what exactly gets Umbridge so excited—is she hoping to turn the weapon over to Fudge so he can use it, to show him how she’s stopped Dumbledore’s plans for him by discovering it, or to use it herself against someone? Or is it just a power thing?
*Umbridge is scared of the forest—she must really be evil. Harry says going into the FF without a wand is the most foolhardy thing they’ve done yet. Yet when he walked into the Forest with Hagrid earlier he and Hermione asked Hagrid why he was armed, pointing out he wasn’t when he showed them the Thestrals. I can’t remember first year, but did the kids go into the forest with their wands out? I guess he's just trying to scare her. Which he can totally do because she's a bad guy and therefore a coward.
*Hermione thinks her plan with the centaurs worked. You can tell because of her triumphant smile. Would one good hoof print on her face be too much to ask for Marietta’s sake?
*It’s rather odd that Umbridge calls the centaurs half-breeds since, uh, they’re not. They are full-blooded centaurs. It’s not like you become a centaur because you had one parent who was human and another who was a horse…do you? ::shudders::
*I guess even when it goes along with her plans, Hermione can’t help but instinctively make a show of offense on the centaur’s behalf when Umbridge calls them filthy half-breeds and animals. She's totally on your side, guys!
*Interestingly, she has no such reaction when Hagrid calls them mules, which are animal half-breeds. Interesting, but somehow not surprising.
*Harry is nearing manhood, according to a centaur who apparently hasn’t been keeping track of his behavior all year. ETA: I guess the centaur recognizes Wizarding Manhood.
*And here’s where Hermione does something really dumb, but in a Hermione way. She tries to defend herself to the centaurs by telling them she doesn’t think like Umbridge (iow, she’s a good liberal so as minorities they should love her) and then says they came there so the centaurs would do her dirty work, rather than, you know, saying that Umbridge brought them to the forest at wand-point and Hermione had no choice but to keep walking or be killed. The text acknowledges she was dumb to say this, but it seems like we’re supposed to blame the centaurs for their bad reaction instead of acknowledging the arrogance. Hermione couldn’t help letting people know about her brilliant plan.
*The grey centaur is absolutely right that they would have left the forest boasting about getting the centaurs to do their work for them. The fact that the centaurs didn’t do what they did because the kids wanted them to (as Harry claims they know) is what makes it such a boast—centaurs are stupid and easily manipulated. If the centaurs had done them a favor they’d have to be grateful.
*"You said you didn’t hurt the innocent!" Hermione cries. Again with this focus on this nebulous concept of "the innocent"--from somebody currently controlling somebody via blackmail, no less. (And it implies she did expect Umbridge to be hurt while she would be spared because she doesn't deserve to be hurt.)
*Luckily, at this point Hagrid’s brother appears. May I ask why Grawp is so stupid? "Hagrid’s Tale" (if we can bear to remember it) told the story of a violent and primitive tribe, but one that was perfectly capable of normal adult communication. Grawp is acting like someone with severe mental disabilities, stumbling around looking for "Hagger" like he’s in need of affection and surprising Hermione by being able to remember he’s met her before. Scooby-doo falls far further up the human scale than Grawp.
*I do think it’s funny, btw, that when Hermione’s plan doesn’t work the author steps in and uses the same plan successfully: Hermione leads everyone into the forest so the centaurs will, according to their nature, get rid of the bad guy adult while naturally protecting the innocent children. JKR gets the kids into the forest so Grawp will, according to his nature, get rid of the bad guy adults while naturally protecting the innocent children. The only flaw in Hermione’s plan was that Grawp was a good Forrest-Gump-type animal while the centaurs are too smart to be good.
*Surely we should expect Grawp is loyal to Hermione and Harry for life now, having bonded with them when he found them with a group of others who shot arrows into his face while Harry and Hermione ran away.
*Wait, wasn’t that cowardly of Hermione and Harry to run off leaving Grawp being attacked? *checks house patch on their school robes* Nope, not cowardly.
*If there were ever an HP drinking game (which would admittedly be hard to get drunk in given how long it takes to read all these pages) I think you should take a drink every time Hermione makes some vague allusion to worrying about others being hurt or killed so she gets points for compassion before Harry and Ron can dismiss the need. In this one Hermione says Grawp might kill all the centaurs and Harry says he’s not that bothered by that idea.
*Hermione is for some reason not worried that the centaurs might kill Grawp. Personally, I’d bet on the centaurs in this kind of battle. Hundreds of intelligent, deadly hunters with weapons vs. one large, wounded animal? ETA: Bad flashbacks to Hagrid NOT being killed by those damn spiders in DH! Damn you, spiders!
*Harry’s kicking trees in fury—yup, almost reached manhood, this one!
*Now is the perfect time to bring up the question of exactly how they’re supposed to get to London. All of us who were asking that three chapters ago just don’t have Hermione’s brilliant, strategic mind.
*Hey guys, Umbridge is gone now. You can fire talk with anybody you want and ask them for help. No? Okay.
*"How did you ever get away from the evil Slytherins?" Hermione asks Ron. "Funny thing," Ron says. "Once you all left the Slytherins just let us go and said we were supposed to hex them."
*Oops, I mean they all threw those fabulous hexes the kids learned in the DA. Because while the Slytherins took the trouble to gag them all (why?) they didn’t take anybody’s wands. Don’t ask how they did all this gagged, though, since they don't know wandless magic yet. It was Ginny! With the bat bogey hex! And Neville had this big swell of confidence and his gag popped right off!
*Ron asks what Harry found out in the fire and Harry says he found out Voldemort had Sirius. If I were the other kids and I knew Harry I’d want to know exactly what Harry saw in the fire. How would he know Voldemort had him? Did Sirius leave the fire equivalent of an answering machine: "Hi, this is Sirius. I can’t come to the fire right now, because I’m in the clutches of the dark lord…"
*Ginny resembles Fred and George—well, we know she’s super cool now! And naturally she cares about Sirius as much as Ron does. She cares about everyone as much as the Trio! Go Sextet! *vomits*
*You know, I did not share Harry’s impatience to get on with it until these extra DA members showed up to whine about all the things they’ve done and why they should come with Harry. I know you idiots have to come too for plot and theme purposes; must I be subjected to the lecture?
*Why on earth would Harry not have picked Ginny as one of the DA members he’d want with him? Haven’t we been incessantly told how excellent she is? ('Course, Neville too seemed to be one of the best DA members but whatever.)
*I love the way Neville is all about how this it the "first time [the DA] gets to do something real," and rebukes Harry by asking if it was "all a game or something" when asking that question really does make it a game: They have to save Sirius so they can do something real like they were promised. Getting help from an adult would mess up the fantasy.
*Why must Luna drag out her revelation of how they’re going to fly?
*Boy, those Thestrels sure are tame. You can just get on them and ride. And only Hagrid is able to tame them. Which naturally means that if the wrong person tried to climb on board it would bite his/her leg off. Hagrid’s trained them to be puppy dogs to the right people, so that getting hurt by one is merely a sign that you deserved it.
*Thestrels are drawn to the scent of blood, like sharks. Only if a shark shows up and discovers you’re not really injured, it doesn’t offer you a lift to London.
*Still, here’s the payoff for all the Thestrel talk throughout the book, kids. They can fly you somewhere. Even though they really shouldn't be able to do that at all.
*Hey...errr...CoMC is a yearly class. Presumably each year is supposed to be doing different stuff, right? I mean, it doesn’t make sense for Hagrid to just teach the same thing to every year—not that he’s got a problem inflicting advanced, dangerous animals on first years, but if he teaches the same animals to everyone then the younger years would miss everything the older years have already done. What this is leading up to is, how does Ginny know about how Hagrid lured Thestrels when she’s in fourth year? Hagrid specifically said he was saving the trip into the forest until the kids were in fifth year (unless you get detention, in which case you get a frightened dog and some bread to leave a trail of crumbs and take your chances). You weren’t in that scene, Ginny. But aren't you clever and practical. (I'm beginning to notice this is a girl!power.)
*So now we’re up, up and away with our six heroes who at this point all annoy me immensely. Seriously, I’d rather just go back to Ravenclaw and see what Cho’s up to.
The Avoid the Limbs Rule (n):
The centaurs go for Grawp’s face, though this does seem like it would slow him down.
IITS
Hey! Umbridge is gone! Now they can call for help—maybe they can even get in touch with Arthur at the Ministry and he can nip downstairs and...wait, where are they going?
Informed Attributes
Yes, we know you were previously informed Thestrels were dangerous and usually untamable, but now they’re not. And it was very good of Hagrid to teach them!
Ken and Andrew’s Rule of Plot Holes
So I guess first Neville chewed through his gag, and then chewed through Ron’s, without anyone noticing. Or maybe the Slytherins got bored and started playing parcheesi...
Misdirected Answering
I so do not care why Neville, Luna and Ginny deserve to go to the MoM. Does Harry really hold their abilities in such little regard we have to spend a big exchange on it?
Monster Death Trap Proviso
Although it’s not about trapping a monster, clearly the attempt to get into Umbridge’s office and use the fire follows this rule: it was stopped the first time, so now we must go to the MoM ourselves instead of trying to use it again.
The Stealth Monster Rule
Um, hi Grawp, you gigantic, clumsy oaf moving through a forest. Where did you come from so suddenly?
Final score: 6.5
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I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-06 05:25 pm (UTC)Especially since there are 20 or 30 members of your super-secret fighting force *and* several adults. But perhaps they're afraid that the adult teachers would try to prevent Harry from going off to save Sirius with the totally unfair powers of commonsense.
*It’s rather odd that Umbridge calls the centaurs half-breeds since, uh, they’re not. They are full-blooded centaurs. It’s not like you become a centaur because you had one parent who was human and another who was a horse…do you? ::shudders::
Well, Dean thought that was how you get a centaur. But then he's not a centaur. On the other hand, we never do see any female centaurs, do we?
*Interestingly, she has no such reaction when Hagrid calls them mules, which are animal half-breeds. Interesting, but somehow not surprising.
Well, there we go. Mystery solved. They are the product of horses and humans, and Hagrid was simply using an accurate term to describe them. And I suppose there's a genetic reason why they all appear male. Something to do with the number of chromosomes.
Now, the question becomes: Human female/stallion? Or male human/mare? Were the centaurs punishing Dolores, or taking her away to become breeding stock? Since they were planning on hurting Harry, rather than recruiting him, it's probably the female humans they're interested in...
You know, sometimes these books take me to very disturbing places in the imagination.
*And here’s where Hermione does something really dumb, but in a Hermione way. She tries to defend herself to the centaurs by telling them she doesn’t think like Umbridge (iow, she’s a good liberal so as minorities they should love her) and then says they came there so the centaurs would do her dirty work, rather than, you know, saying that Umbridge brought them to the forest at wand-point and Hermione had no choice but to keep walking or be killed. The text acknowledges she was dumb to say this, but it seems like we’re supposed to blame the centaurs for their bad reaction instead of acknowledging the arrogance. Hermione couldn’t help letting people know about her brilliant plan.
I don't know. The idea that Hermione was being incredibly speciest and arrogant wasn't lost of me when I read this passage. In fact, at this point, I was hoping that the centaurs would carry Hermione off to their unholy breeding grounds.
*"You said you didn’t hurt the innocent!" Hermione cries. Again with this focus on this nebulous concept of "the innocent"--from somebody currently controlling somebody via blackmail, no less. (And it implies she did expect Umbridge to be hurt while she would be spared because she doesn't deserve to be hurt.)
Carry her away, centaurs! Carry her away!
Re: I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-06 09:48 pm (UTC)That's because according to JKR there are no female centaurs. Just like they are no male Veelas. ... Yeah, that makes a whole lot of sense. I guess she didn't have female centaurs, because a) there weren't any in greek mythology as far as I know and b) because centaurs don't wear clothes, so the females would be bare-chested like the males.
As for the Veelas, reason a) probably applies here too. Except of course, in her world Veelas breed with humans and create part-Veelas. So if there are no males, where do the full-blooded females come from, since the human-Veela offspring is not fully Veela.
Re: I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-06 09:56 pm (UTC)...You notice, I hope, that she did not have a son? >D (If she has a brother or something in canon, my theory is totally screwed. XD)
Re: I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-06 10:07 pm (UTC)Re: I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-06 10:25 pm (UTC)Perhaps she got Bill to start pronouncing it "Oui-ZLAY"
Re: I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-07 05:34 pm (UTC)Bwahahahaha! Bill and Fleur as Richard and Hyacinth Bucket.
Re: I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-07 09:50 pm (UTC)Re: I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-08 06:59 pm (UTC)Re: I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-06 11:07 pm (UTC)I don't remember there being any female centaurs in the Narnian books. But you could easily imagine them existing. And there were no nasty implied bestial-rape scenes that we're expected to laugh at, which is why only the geekiest of the geek would wonder about the Narnian centaurs.
Re: I Keep Making Comments that Are Too Long (Part One)
Date: 2008-06-07 03:06 pm (UTC)Oh yes, I think it's clearly there. That's what gets her into trouble. But by having the centaurs then turn out to be even more crazy than she thought it sort of evens out. Which we need for plot reasons, but it's never revisited as something that Hermione learned. She stays just as speciest and arrogant and I think by the end of the book seems to be taking credit for getting rid of Umbridge or at least being given the credit as if nobody remembers how the plan failed. I wouldn't be surprised if asked if JKR would sort of brush off her arrogance--acknowledge it but consider it a sign of her earnestness.
I'm fascinated by JKR apparently saying there are no female centaurs or male Veela? Because I do think that's the way it probably works in mythology but in this context it does make you wonder how they're supposed to reproduce if they're actual races and all. Do they breed with each other?
Where do baby centaurs come from?
Date: 2008-06-09 05:16 pm (UTC)Good heavens, have we just discovered canonical mpreg?
Re: Where do baby centaurs come from?
Date: 2008-06-10 02:33 am (UTC)Re: Where do baby centaurs come from?
Date: 2008-06-10 03:29 pm (UTC)The "saving people" thing
Date: 2008-06-08 07:13 pm (UTC)Especially since there are 20 or 30 members of your super-secret fighting force *and* several adults. But perhaps they're afraid that the adult teachers would try to prevent Harry from going off to save Sirius with the totally unfair powers of commonsense.
You know, when I first read OotP, I was sure that that was the whole point--that Harry shouldn't have run off alone, that he should have trusted Snape or gone to the Weasleys or done anything but what he did. And I like to think that JKR even meant it that way at the time; she just forgot about it in the last two books because she doesn't re-read her work.
Re: The "saving people" thing
Date: 2008-06-09 12:43 pm (UTC)Ditto. I also thought that another point was that yes, he needed to learn Occlumency and in general couldn't rely on beginner's luck to carry him through any more. That as he was growing up the whole consequences thing would apply to him more and he'd have to prepare and think before he acts to succeed.
And I like to think that JKR even meant it that way at the time; she just forgot about it in the last two books because she doesn't re-read her work.
Maybe. Or maybe it were screams about Harry and the trio being less of the constant center of attention in OoTP, the "darkness" and the loss of "whimsy", as well as too many other characters having a chance to do something on-screen. One would have thought that it was a natural consequence of things moving towards a civil war, but no... some people wanted it to be _only_ about a young boy (who never really grows up) and his quest and that's what it eventually turned out to be.
Let's Hope this Doesn't Exceed the Word Limit (Part Two)
Date: 2008-06-06 05:27 pm (UTC)That is bizarre, isn't it? I mean, they left Grawp howling in pain with dozens of arrows sticking out of him and huge drops of blood falling from his wounds. And yet, Hermione's worried about the centaurs.
Like this big, dumb little brother of Hagrid isn't worth worrying about. How are we, the readers, supposed to think about Grawp? (Mind you, I wish we didn't have to think about Grawp at all, but since we have had TWO chapters invested the guy before we even reach this part of the story....)
For all Hagrid's tying him to trees, he obviously loves his brother. So, are we supposed to want him to succeed if we like Hagrid? Or are we supposed to think of Grawp as a Bad Idea, along the lines of the Blast-Ended Skrewts? Then he comes along and saves the sorry hides of Harry and Hermione--so he's a Good Idea.
Except they just run off and abandon him to be killed. Do to a little math, Hagrid says Grawp is small for a giant, only 16 feet tall. A centaur has got to stand at least 8 or 9 feet. They aren't tiny compared to Grawp. But the kids never give him another thought--until a year later when Harry merely mentions him at the funeral.
Re: Let's Hope this Doesn't Exceed the Word Limit (Part Two)
Date: 2008-06-07 03:10 pm (UTC)Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-06 05:28 pm (UTC)I assumed they were gagged in order to keep them from spoiling the surprise when Umbridge grabbed Harry. But maybe JKR gagged them in order to cut down the dialogue. But, yeah, I couldn't figure out why they were gagged, either.
*You know, I did not share Harry’s impatience to get on with it until these extra DA members showed up to whine about all the things they’ve done and why they should come with Harry. I know you idiots have to come too for plot and theme purposes; must I be subjected to the lecture?
I don't mind the lecture, because they're right. What I mind is Harry's arrogance and stupidity. Don't want the lame D.A. members to come along? Why don't you give them something else to do instead? Like, say, using Umbridge's fireplace to contact the Order?
*Why on earth would Harry not have picked Ginny as one of the DA members he’d want with him? Haven’t we been incessantly told how excellent she is? ('Course, Neville too seemed to be one of the best DA members but whatever.)
Who are the D.A. members he would rather have? The Creeveys, who can't shoot straight? Smith, who would challenge him at every point? Cho, the friend to a traitor and human hosepipe? The twins, who fire hexes into the backs of their comrades?
This stray thought of Harry's really bugged me, and it's all of a piece with his general attitude toward the people who follow him. If he needs them, great. If he doesn't, they're nothing to him. And he never thinks about whether his followers need him.
I don't know what McGonagall was thinking about, making him captain of the Quidditch team. Or Shacklebolt, putting him in charge of the aurors. Harry Potter is the worst leader in the world.
*I love the way Neville is all about how this it the "first time [the DA] gets to do something real," and rebukes Harry by asking if it was "all a game or something" when asking that question really does make it a game: They have to save Sirius so they can do something real like they were promised. Getting help from an adult would mess up the fantasy.
Yes, I ge the irony. But it's still a good question.
*Thestrels are drawn to the scent of blood, like sharks. Only if a shark shows up and discovers you’re not really injured, it doesn’t offer you a lift to London.
The magical world really only exists to be convenient to Harry. You need a magical being that can fly you quickly from Scotland to a specific spot in London? Why, look! Here's a super special flying horsie that only you can see that will do just that!
It sort of like in the Hitchhiker's Guide books, when the babel fish prove the non-existence of God by being so useful that they show that a benevolent being must be running the universe, negating the need for faith in God. And, since faith is necessary for the existence of God, he disappears in a flash of logic.
Adams also points out later in the series that, in the infinite vastness of the infinite worlds, any thing one could ever desire would evolve on one planet or other. This observation is in connection with a conversation between Marvin and a living mattress.
*Hey...errr...CoMC is a yearly class. Presumably each year is supposed to be doing different stuff, right? I mean, it doesn’t make sense for Hagrid to just teach the same thing to every year—not that he’s got a problem inflicting advanced, dangerous animals on first years, but if he teaches the same animals to everyone then the younger years would miss everything the older years have already done. What this is leading up to is, how does Ginny know about how Hagrid lured Thestrels when she’s in fourth year?
Yeah, that bugged me, too.
Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-06 06:27 pm (UTC)LOL! Well, to be fair he can't be sure that any of the remaining teachers would stand up to Umbridge. After all, Flitwick and Sprout are non-entities with a couple of behaviour quirks instead of personality, Snape has just "callously" refused to have a heart-to-heart about Sirius's terrible danger in front of Umbridge and thus can be discounted in Harrymind, and others are only names. As to the DA - maybe he doesn't want him to get expelled? A fairly unlikely consideration for a self-centered egotist, I know, but maybe that's why Hermione didn't try to ask them for help.
Why don't you give them something else to do instead? Like, say, using Umbridge's fireplace to contact the Order?
The funny thing is that Ginny could use any old fireplace to contact the Order via her mother or even call her dad at work. And surely somebody as awesome as all that could have come up with some code phrases to explain their predicament. But of course, they could have also taken Testrals to Hogsmeade and flooed to the Barrow from there. Possibilities are endless! Naturally, once one remembers the handy, but somehow totally forgotten gimmick passageways the whole extent of the kids absurdity becomes clear. They could have acertained Sirius's well-being hours ago and without tangling with Umbridge. In fact, Harry could have visited Sirius that whole term if he wanted to.
BTW, the funny thing is that subsequent books have shown, that yes, DA was a game for Harry. No useful goal was ever seriously intended, he just wanted to pull one over Umbridge.
Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-06 09:12 pm (UTC)It's this attitude that makes me wonder about the "saving people" thing. Is that really an important part of Harry's character? I mean, an actual part that we see demonstrated, not just something we're told about him. It just seems to me that there are plenty of times someone around Harry is hurting and he walks on by with barely a thought. (Neville, Luna, Percy, various victims of the twins, etc.)
I suppose I'm looking at a deeper definition of "saving"... But it seems to me that Harry worries about saving only specific people and only at specific times.
Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-06 11:00 pm (UTC)I liked the Mistful (Sarah) put it in Drop Dead Gorgeous, which is set in an AU future in which Harry is both an auror and part-Veela. This is from Chapter Five, which you can find at: Maya's Fics (http://maya.haraheta.net/about.php)
...[Harry] unchained the door and opened it. Outside, Dean Thomas stood. He looked cross and embarrassed, he wasn’t looking at Harry, and he had a black eye and a bloody nose.
“What happened to you?”
“Oh, this?” Dean asked. “Nothing. It doesn’t matter. I don’t care. I’m not sure if I was right to come here,” he said abruptly. “I mean, it’s not like you give a toss about anyone outside your special little circle.”
“I did save the world that one time,” Harry pointed out coldly.
“I didn’t mean it that way,” Dean said. “I mean, obviously you care about other people’s lives, it’s just other people’s feelings you don’t notice-”
Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-07 01:53 am (UTC)Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-07 03:23 pm (UTC)Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-07 03:19 pm (UTC)It seems like the most obvious advantage to their being gagged is their not being able to do any spells since we don't know about silent spell casting yet. But then they seem to be able to do it anyway.
This stray thought of Harry's really bugged me, and it's all of a piece with his general attitude toward the people who follow him. If he needs them, great. If he doesn't, they're nothing to him. And he never thinks about whether his followers need him.
I get the feeling the point here is that we're supposed to consider it a warm and fuzzy thing that Harry starts to accept help from people and realize that all these people want to help him. I suspect at most he's supposed to just be silly not to accept it here rather than being all that rude or insensitive to these other kids.
Since as someone else pointed out he never thinks anything of anyone else's abilities, even Ron and Hermione. That sort of foreshadows DH where the entire British WW is supposed to be supporting Harry if they're good. It's not presented as a war that other people would have plenty of reasons for fighting without ever thinking of Harry.
Also in DH iirc he shows up at the school and is still keeping everything a secret from people as if the whole world is just a backdrop for his personal quest even though by that point other kids have proved themselves too and Neville, in particular, has far surpassed him in many ways.
Yes, I ge the irony. But it's still a good question.
I don't think it's really ironic, I mean what Neville is saying. Neville's question is fine. He's absolutely right in terms of wondering why Harry wouldn't think they would help. But in real life somebody like Neville would also probably take the next step and think it would be good to get adults involved. It's the genre convention that stops them from really doing the thing that would most help the situation, pointing out that this really is a game. Just one the author is playing.
Though I also agree with the person pointing out that Harry does see the DA as a game. The only reason it ever does anything worthwhile is because Neville redefines it and picks it up when Harry gets tired of it.
Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-07 06:22 pm (UTC)Also in DH iirc he shows up at the school and is still keeping everything a secret from people as if the whole world is just a backdrop for his personal quest even though by that point other kids have proved themselves too and Neville, in particular, has far surpassed him in many ways.
You're absolutely right, but I have a hard time even suspecting we're supposed to see it as warm and fuzzy, because the closest we get to that is far away in HBP, when Harry would rather sit with Neville and Luna than with the aggressive, unattractive, near-complete stranger who urges him to sit with her "cool" friends. We never have a moment when Harry is glad Neville was there to carry Hermione or Luna led Ron and Ginny to relative safety.
Unless it's that moment when they all share a bonding laugh over Umbridge's gang-banging.
Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-07 09:54 pm (UTC)Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-09 10:46 am (UTC)I think this is more to do with him not wanting her to get hurt. I can kind of understand him not wanting Luna, because she might just sqitch off or go vague at the wrong moment, but why he doesn't want neville is beyond me. Neville prooved how brave he was back in book one, and has been getting better ever since...
Re: Third Time's the Charm! (Part Three)
Date: 2008-06-09 10:04 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-06 06:03 pm (UTC)This is the biggest piece of DH foreshadowing ever. Harry runs off into the woods and does something stupid. While they're there, the DH members still left in the school do actual battle (somehow) that isn't shown, but they come back with marks of it and telling tales. Meanwhile, all Harry did was run like a bitch.
Then Harry wonders what in the world he would need these people for and why they think they have anything to contribute.
Uh-huh.
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Date: 2008-06-07 03:20 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-06 09:08 pm (UTC)With JKR? Of course you do! :D JKR's been nasty-sexing Imagination Land since we were first introduced to Hagrid. (It just took awhile for her to share the complete picture with us lucky readers.)
...the centaurs are too smart to be good.
That's totally the key to the Potterverse. Smart and ambitious are the true signs of evil there. (Which goes a long way towards explaining the state of education at Hogwarts. *g*)
I so do not care why Neville, Luna and Ginny deserve to go to the MoM. Does Harry really hold their abilities in such little regard we have to spend a big exchange on it?
This made me wonder... I'd read a list of "Do's and Don't's" in writing science fiction at one point, and one of the "don't's" was something about starting a story in a white room with a protagonist who doesn't know who he is or why he's there. Apparently it's a popular technique for a frustrated author staring at a blank, white, page. And it's been done a lot.
So I wonder if some of this extraneous discussion is JKR working out on paper some of the questions she had while getting the plot to work? She knows she needs all six children at the DoM, but she's not sure why the extra three would be allowed along, so she has her characters discuss it on page. And then she fails to edit. ;)
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Date: 2008-06-07 01:47 am (UTC)I know, as an adult reader, I wouldn't be sitting there thinking, "hey, why is Harry letting the three bozos go?" if Harry had just let them without the argument. Ginny, Neville, and Luna are right there. It's weirder to leave them behind than to take them.
Unless you think they're incapable for some reason.
Either JKR is deliberately making Harry into a jerk here in order to boost the surprise when Neville starts kicking ass in DH, or she's using the Harry filter to make Neville look dorkier than he is, or she genuinely thinks those characters are unlikely heroes.
Of the three, only Luna is really unfocussed about casting spells. And she's just proved herself smarter and more observant than Harry, so I don't see why she's such a liability.
As Magpie said, Neville seemed to be one of the D.A. stars (working harder than anyone else). He's just as old as Harry, just as brave, and he's got just as much reason to fight the Death Eaters. So, why leave him behind?
And we've been hearing all year about how gosh-darn powerful Ginny is. Let's see her in action.
And we know Hermione chokes when in dangerous situations. Why take her and not the others?
Ahem. This gets back to my theory about Harry being the worst leader in the world. Next year, when the inevitable showdown occurs, Harry is off with Dumbledore. Presumably Ron gets the job of allocating troops. Note that he puts Luna and Hermione on Snape-watching duty, and uses Ginny and Neville in the more dangerous positions. That makes sense. Hermione and Luna can probably talk their way out anything that happens with Snape, but Neville and Ginny are better with their wands.
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Date: 2008-06-07 02:06 am (UTC)I think she sees them as unlikely heroes, honestly. I mean not Ginny, of course! But Luna and Neville are supposed to be these lovable dorks, and I suppose there's this idea that Harry wants to keep Ginny tucked away safe and sound. (Or maybe it's supposed to be Harry underestimating Ginny?)
But JKR has so consistently been surprised at any but the most surface readings of her characters, I can see her thinking to herself "Okay, why would Harry take these guys with him?" and then typing, "Harry wondered why he'd take these guys with him."
Of course, I tend to do the opposite of giving JKR the benefit of the doubt. I presume she herself believes only the surface reading of her characters and that she thinks her readership will miss anything she doesn't spoon feed them (barring the sort of inside information JKR thinks everyone knows about and agrees on, ie: Pansy is the devil). I may be leaning too far into cynicism though. ;)
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Date: 2008-06-07 09:40 am (UTC)Like George Lucas thinking "but how can I demonstrate that from Anakin's point of view, the Jedi are evil?"
- Dan Hemmens
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Date: 2008-06-07 09:54 pm (UTC)Why not Ginny?
Date: 2008-06-09 06:03 pm (UTC)Re: Why not Ginny?
Date: 2008-06-09 09:54 pm (UTC)Re: Why not Ginny?
Date: 2008-06-10 02:33 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-07 09:06 am (UTC)Well, Harry thinks that everybody is incapable, except for himself, no? He was going to go by his lonesome to rescue poor, poor Sirius from LV and all is DEs, wasn't he? I mean, Harry is somewhat used to R&H persistently tagging along and refusing to be left behind, but a thought that anybody else could be useful would be quite foreign to him, IMHO.
I also wonder about Luna being "unfocussed". IIRC it just meant that she wasn't paying much attention to aiming during DA exercises - and I can't fault her for that, since they were on the whole deadly dull. I bet that as a Ravenclaw she knew and was able to cast more spells than Harry, Ron or Neville. So, yes, quite weird.
And we know Hermione chokes when in dangerous situations. Why take her and not the others?
Sorry, but that like Ron's "strategic genius" was just in PS and long past. Since then Hermione was doing better than anybody but Harry himself. She was sure a better magical fighter than all other non-Prophesized kids in the MoM.
What bugs me is that for all Ginny's supposed and relentlessly forced on the reader awesomness, she never particularly distinguished herself. There were as lot of opportunities to _show_ it - MoM battle being one of them. But we just kept hearing about it and apparently were supposed to believe without any on-screen proof.
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Date: 2008-06-07 05:34 pm (UTC)JKR does a LOT of character development like that. She's the Queen Of Tell And Not Show, which makes all her judgements turn out a little wonky in the end.
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Date: 2008-06-07 02:06 pm (UTC)Interesting. I hadn't thought of that. I've heard Harry described as a natural sidekick thrust into a hero/leader position, and what you've pointed out fits in with that.
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Date: 2008-06-07 03:24 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-07 06:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2008-06-07 05:32 pm (UTC)Of the three, only Luna is really unfocussed about casting spells. And she's just proved herself smarter and more observant than Harry, so I don't see why she's such a liability.
The problem is that, as usual, the Jo/Harry filter isn't very good, and she's never been very good at writing characters the way she sees them. She's always so shocked when people like characters she meant to be bad, or hate characters she meant to be good, because she - and Harry - see them that way, so that should be good enough, evidence and behavior be damned.
That whole scene reads like Jo convincing HERSELF to write them along and trying to give compelling reasons they should, because she WANTED more lil'Wizards along for the scene but doesn't personally think they're capable.
Most of it, in my mind, boils down to Harry being the WRITER'S pov, and her inability to make characters turn out the way she thinks they should be.
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Date: 2008-06-07 05:33 pm (UTC)I am deeply ashamed to say that when I read this the very first thing that popped into my head was, "Oh, that's why Dumbledore tries to be so tolerant of other species—it's all his half-human-half-goat nieces and nephews!"
sistermagpie: *Thestrels are drawn to the scent of blood, like sharks. Only if a shark shows up and discovers you’re not really injured, it doesn’t offer you a lift to London.
That's why thestrals are better, and why we need thestrals with frickin' laser beams.
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Date: 2008-06-07 05:35 pm (UTC)...
I would have paid to see those. They would have been ADORABLE.
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Date: 2008-06-07 09:56 pm (UTC)