Deathly Hallows, chapter 19

[anehan]

The Silver Doe

* What is it with the Potters and animals of the deer family? James's Animagus form is a stag, and now we find out that Snape associates Lily with a doe. Though according to Dictionary.com, a doe can be the female of, among others, deer, antelope, goat and rabbit. I think I prefer to think Lily is a female rabbit. Or a goat. So that she can be paired with Aberforth's goat.

* A wreath of Christmas roses? What's that? Is it some kind of English custom to have roses on Christmas?

* Harry imagines someone is calling out to him in the distance. It is Ron, of course, who would rather call out to Harry than Hermione, because he is so much more important to Ron than her.

* Why is Hermione reading A History of Magic? Doesn't she remember it by heart already?

* Why is Harry wearing the Horcrux again? Wouldn't it be safer in his pouch? I would have imagined that Harry and Hermione would have realized how stupid it was to wear the Horcrux around your neck. But I need not wonder. Whatever stupid thing Harry can think of doing, he will do it.

* Oh, so it's bitterly cold in the Forest of Dean, is it? As someone who hails from Lapland, I snap my fingers at your bitter coldness. Apparently wizards can manufacture tents that are as spacious as a real house but not tents that are warm.

* Harry feels as though he is recuperating from some brief but serious illness, an impression reinforced by Hermione's solicitousness. That's because he must turn everything into high drama. One would think that after meeting Voldemort so many times, another confrontation would not faze him, but apparently it was enough to make him lose his sleep.

* Harry is wearing all the sweaters he owned, but he is still shivery. Apparently wizards can't make warm clothes either. Or maybe they are Dudley's cast-offs, which makes me wonder why Harry has continued to wear them even after he came to money? Or is it fanon that he wears them? I can't remember.

* Or maybe it's not wizards who can't make warm clothes. Maybe it's the English. At the very least they can't make warm houses. I once read a Finn who had lived in England write that he had never felt so cold in Finland as he had felt in an English house.

* Harry was on the point of taking out the Marauder's Map, so as to watch Ginny's dot for a while. Creepy, or what?

* So Harry follows the deer. Without telling Hermione where he is going. Is the boy stupid, or what? Oh, but he knows this is no Dark Magic. Of course it isn't, it's a Patronus. Doesn't mean a Death Eater couldn't have cast it.

* By the way, how does Snape know where Harry and Hermione are?

* He thinks the doe is going to speak to him. Which she would do only once she had led him deep into the forest.

* Oh, now Harry considers whether the doe has led him into an ambush. Our glorious hero. Stupid as a sock. (And possibly quite as smelly, too, if he has continued to bathe as often as he did at Hogwarts.)

* I'd like to know why the sword must be at the bottom of a pool.

* Harry remembers that "their daring, nerve and chivalry set Gryffindors apart". Well, if you consider foolhardiness to be daring and nerve, then it's true, as far as that goes. But chivalry? Maybe from someone like Neville, but Harry? Our resident drama queen?

* The description of Harry drowning? Well, let's just say that Rowling reveals another kind of scene she can't write to save her soul.

* Even Ron realizes how stupid it was to dive while wearing the Horcrux. You know, the stupider Harry acts, the more Ron grows on me. Not that he is much better, but at least no anvils of how great and noble he is are dropped constantly on me.

* Harry thinks Ron is supposed to be the one to destroy the locket. "Supposed to"? So now Harry wants to abandon being a hero. Of course, JKR only wrote it this way so that we could have the affecting scene of Ron's insecurities being thrown on his face. Puh-leeeze. As if the readers weren't already perfectly aware of what Ron's insecurities are. Must it always be anvils, JKR? They are so heavy.

* Please, no more Harry intuiting (is that a word?) things.

* Harry shouts and bellows and yells at Ron to stab the thing, but Ron does not listen. Yet he still stubbornly insists it's got to Ron who destroys the locket.

* Okay, so I don't really understand why Ron is so fazed with the locket-Harry and Hermione. Surely he has got the two brain cells that are required for him to realize the locket is preying on his fears.

* Now this Hermione I like. Looking demented, putting Harry and Ron in their places. "Don't you tell me what to do, Harry Potter!" Sweet, sweet words. If only she remembered them when Harry was being his usual self. *cheers Hermione on*

* Ah, the magical Deluminator appears. Or rather, Deus Ex Machina, as I prefer to call it. One of many in the series. And of course Dumbledore would know Ron would need it. The man can't stop meddling even after he is dead.

* Ron's pyjamas are maroon. Somehow I'm not surprised. Molly must really hate him, only she can't admit it to herself, so she takes it out in this passive-aggressive way. (I think this last piece is the most interesting bit of the chapter.)

Comments

[guardians-song.livejournal.com]

* Even Ron realizes how stupid it was to dive while wearing the Horcrux. You know, the stupider Harry acts, the more Ron grows on me. Not that he is much better, but at least no anvils of how great and noble he is are dropped constantly on me.
Goodness knows 90% of my liking for Ron comes from how he's always the most sane one in bad fanfiction. (What this says about DH...)

* By the way, how does Snape know where Harry and Hermione are?
Phineas Nigellus.

* I'd like to know why the sword must be at the bottom of a pool.
Arthurian myth ripoff. Though if Snape ascended from the lake, holding a sword aloft, Harry would let out a high-pitched shriek and run away, so Snape had to just leave it there and presume Harry had two brain cells to rub together.

* Harry remembers that "their daring, nerve and chivalry set Gryffindors apart". Well, if you consider foolhardiness to be daring and nerve, then it's true, as far as that goes. But chivalry? Maybe from someone like Neville, but Harry? Our resident drama queen?
To be fair... doesn't Harry wonder the same thing?

I sort of wonder if this was some sort of passive-aggressive punishment of Harry on Snape's part. After all, Albus-the-Idiot's portrait is busy lecturing Snape on how to use the Sword of Gryffindor, and Snape says "[...] I have an idea..." if I recall correctly. And thus, he runs off to give James Potter's son an IQ test that will be quite unpleasant (if possibly fatal, but then again, he knew Harry had to die anyway) if Harry fails (yes, I know, you can't fail an IQ test, but I'm sure Harry could manage because he's Just Special That Way)... and Harry proceeds to fail most epically. This is not to mention that Snape, from where he was watching, was probably taking notes and rolling his eyes.

"Following a Patronus blindly, without back-up... fifty points from Gryffindor... diving into a freezing pool... twenty points from Gryffindor... following that idiot Dumbledore's plans in the first place... one hundred points from Gryffindor..."
There was a pause.
"And one hundred and fifty points from Slytherin for the same..."

[anehan]

Phineas Nigellus

Ah, I see.

Though if Snape ascended from the lake, holding a sword aloft

I would have paid to read it. Not that I didn't pay to read this pile of crap.

To be fair... doesn't Harry wonder the same thing?

He wonders what chivalry has got to do with retrieving the sword, but he doesn't doubt that he's capable of it.

"And one hundred and fifty points from Slytherin for the same..."

*giggles*

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

Heh. Lapland rules! I remember a winter I was living in England and people would have conversation of the "bone-chilling" cold when it was by my home standards actually not cold at all.

It is kind of funny that with all their magic they can't seem to do central heating or body warmth ever.

When I read this scene the first time I so wanted that doe to talk in Snape's voice and insult Harry.

The sword's at the bottom of the pool because that's where it is in myths, I guess.

It is kind of great that Harry says Ron's "supposed to" destroy it because he's just admitting they're following a plot outline. Either JKR's or Dumbledore's. Doesn't matter.

[anehan]

It is kind of funny that with all their magic they can't seem to do central heating or body warmth ever.

I guess it's supposed to be charmingly old-fashioned, but really, after seeing how wizards live (candles instead of electricity, sewage routed straight to the lake, etc.) I can't imagine why any Muggle-born would want to change their comfortable life to that.

When I read this scene the first time I so wanted that doe to talk in Snape's voice and insult Harry.

Yes!

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

Is it true that their sewage is just routed to the lake? They have a plumbing system in place, otherwise Chamber of Secrets would have been a very short book, surely they can handle treating raw sewage. I'm also not aware that there were ever issues with heating/keeping warm when at Hogwarts or even at that notorious poorhouse, The Burrow. Sorry if it has been stated, and I've forgotten.

In different hands, this world could effortlessly be more attractive than our own - that's one of the reasons lots of people were drawn in in the first place. It only became less attractive because JKR obviously has no fixed idea of what's possible, despite her statements to the contrary. If she has rules, she doesn't stick to them.

Is it not possible that the problem is not with the Wizarding World, but JKR's attempts to build up a bleak atmosphere with no regards for what has happened before? I'll bet that Hermione could easily create warming charms if JKR was in Super-Hermione mode.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Ha. I feh at so-called British hardihood. I was over there in the summer of '84 when there was a major heat wave going on pretty much all of July and August. When it finally broke and the temperatures dropped below 80F, the shops turned all their heaters on!

[artystone.livejournal.com]

LOL I was going to mention that. Anything over about 65F is "boiling".

[lissa2.livejournal.com]

"Ah, the magical Deluminator appears.Or rather, Deus ex Machina, as I prefer to call it. one of many in the series. And of course Dumbledore wold know Ron would need it."
How does JKR dare to preach to H/Hr shippers about Ron bashing and then write something like this?
I like to think that Dumbledore put a "help find your lost friends" enchantment on the Deluminator and the snitch and the book. That way I don't get annoyed with that scene.

"By the way, how does Snape know where Harry and Hermione are? Phineas Nigellus"
But that wood was probably a huge place, how did Snape know where exactly in the wood they where?
And another thing, how could Snape be sure that Harry (or Hermione) had noticed the doe patronus? what if both of them were asleep when the doe past their tent?

[anehan]

I like to think that Dumbledore put a "help find your lost friends" enchantment on the Deluminator and the snitch and the book.

That'd sure make it more palatable. And it'd be sensible as well.

But that wood was probably a huge place, how did Snape know where exactly in the wood they where?

I guess it's just one of those things that don't bear closer scrutiny.

[anehan]

Ah, thanks for the explanation. Now the thing makes sense.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

* Harry feels as though he is recuperating from some brief but serious illness, an impression reinforced by Hermione's solicitousness.

People often treat the dangerously insane or downright crotchety with kid gloves. But there's no reason not to turn this into a fanfic:

**Harry opened his eyes. The months - perhaps years - of illness suddenly drained away. Hermione smiled down at him.

"Hermione..."

A hulking nurse shoved her out of the way. "He's come 'round. Dr. Wellesley!"

Ron hove into view. "Ron!" Harry smiled, pleased to see him.

"Still hallucinating," the doctor said. "I do wish he'd get my name right."

He checked his clipboard and left. The massive nurse left.

Hermione gave Harry a sympathetic smile. "I'll be back to give you your pablum, Mr. Potter," she said before she secured his arms and left.**


* Harry thinks Ron is supposed to be the one to destroy the locket.

It's those voices in his head. They tell him things.

* Please, no more Harry intuiting (is that a word?) things.

Yes, it's a verb. To intuit means to know things through intuition. It isn't used a lot.

* Harry shouts and bellows and yells at Ron to stab the thing...

Which is why, in the fic, he's in restraints.

It really was stupid, not brave, for him to go wandering off after a questionable Patronus. I kept thinking that he was going to get himself into trouble for believing every little thing he imagined to be true - Stan Shunpike under Imperius, the doe being benign. But, no, he had to be just that awesome. *grumble*

[anehan]

There was this fic where Harry was a patient at a mental hospital, because he kept hallucinating that he was a wizard.

I kept thinking that he was going to get himself into trouble for believing every little thing he imagined to be true - Stan Shunpike under Imperius, the doe being benign. But, no, he had to be just that awesome.

I guess his intuition is supposed to be super-awesome, but it would have made so much better a story if he had been wrong.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty sure that the "Christmas roses" are some other plant altogether. I think one of the helebores(?). They have a vaguely rose-like flower. I'm pretty sure they bloom in the autumn and haven't all died off by Christmas, so they get used for decoration during the festivities.

One of the people over on loose_canon pointed out that does and stags haven't anything to do with one another. Stags mate with hinds. Does mate with bucks. And the breeds of deer who are called one, and the deer which are called the other, don't interbreed at all. (Sydpad did a cartoon of the doe Patronus cussing Harry out back when the book came out.)

Harry can't destroy the Locket because the Locket pwned him. It's like wand mastery.

(I wonder if Rowling thought she was passing this off as foreshadowing?)

All of the sweaters Harry owned would be all the ones that Molly has knit him. I'm impressed he can still get into the one she made when he was an undersized 11-year-old.

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

I'm impressed he can still get into the one she made when he was an undersized 11-year-old.

No wonder he was cold! Bigger, blousier sweaters hold the heat in better.

[anehan]

One of the people over on loose_canon pointed out that does and stags haven't anything to do with one another. Stags mate with hinds. Does mate with bucks.

I guess Rowling missed that memo. Although maybe it's a hint that Harry really isn't James's son. Rejoice, Snape/Lily shippers!

I'm impressed he can still get into the one she made when he was an undersized 11-year-old.

I thought it was fanon he was fragile and shorter than all of the girls. I guess not.

[aasaylva.livejournal.com]

What is it with the Potters and animals of the deer family? James's Animagus form is a stag, and now we find out that Snape associates Lily with a doe.
As offensive as it is, I think the whole point was that Lily's inner self defining her personality was to be James Potter's wife. And yes, I know a doe is NOT the biologically correct mate of a stag but I'm ready to bet Rowling doesn't. In children's books stag and doe are often "married" and Rowling is the one who ascribed eye-lids to snakes, after all. So it's not just "oh dear, maths!", it's also "oh dear, biology!"

Why is Hermione reading A History of Magic?
The author felt, there needed to be a spot of characterization here. Like, you know, making a Frenchman utter "Mon dieu!" every other sentence.

Harry was on the point of taking out the Marauder's Map, so as to watch Ginny's dot for a while. Creepy, or what?
The sad thing is that it might have been completely natural IF their relationship or at least Harry's longing for Ginny had been established in a convincing way beforehand. As it is, this effort to remind us of their presumed love doesn't come off like a boy in love who'll cling to anything that reminds him of his beloved girl, but creepy, like a scientist watching bugs in a Petri dish...

Of course it isn't, it's a Patronus. Doesn't mean a Death Eater couldn't have cast it.
I am not sure but wasn't there an interview where JKR stated that DE couldn't cast a patronus because they are too "light" to issue from corrupted souls like theirs? If so, she contradicted herself again when she made Umbridge cast one at the ministry because your soul can't get much nastier than hers, can it?

Please, no more Harry intuiting
Another word for it is "plot-devising" which should be a word after DH came out.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

I am not sure but wasn't there an interview where JKR stated that DE couldn't cast a patronus because they are too "light" to issue from corrupted souls like theirs? If so, she contradicted herself again when she made Umbridge cast one at the ministry because your soul can't get much nastier than hers, can it?

I had to look it up (http://www.the-leaky-cauldron.org/2007/7/30/j-k-rowling-web-chat-transcript), naturally. She said Snape was the only DE would could cast a Patronus because it's magic used to fight the magic DEs make. DEs don't need to use Patronuses (Patroni?) because DEs are all about the Dark Magic (ooh) -- that light stuff is for sissies. I think if DEs knew that they could lead people around with a Patronus, they'd learn how to use them. But that would be logical.

JKR also said the locket helped Umbridge cast her Patronus. Mixes messages much?

She was asked about the Doe-Stag thing, and confirmed it wasn't a coincidence before sidestepping the question entirely.

[anehan]

As offensive as it is, I think the whole point was that Lily's inner self defining her personality was to be James Potter's wife.

I fear you are right. And it really doesn't get much more offensive than that. Though really, must JKR make Lily and James so meant-to-be that even Snape can see it?

Like, you know, making a Frenchman utter "Mon dieu!" every other sentence.

OT, but much as I love Hercule Poirot, his frequent use of "Mademoiselle" and "Madame" and all the rest drives me mad. There's no reason for someone who is as fluent in English as Poirot to use French words when he's speaking English. And if he did use them, they sure as hell wouldn't be such easy words as "Mademoiselle"! *rants*

[eir-de-scania.livejournal.com]

So it's not just "oh dear, maths!", it's also "oh dear, biology!"
***Yes. and "Oh Dear History".

Part One

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

- “Why is Harry wearing the Horcrux again? Wouldn't it be safer in his pouch?”

He’s still wearing it after Ron stormed out because of it? Sigh.(Though Harry, who wasn’t wearing it at the time, told him to go – don’t put all the blame on Ron) If Ron hadn’t turned up in this chapter, I can just imagine Harry, still brooding on how Hermione failed to save his wand whilst saving his life, kills her in her sleep, spurred on by the Horcrux. “At last, you and Ron can be together!!”

- “Apparently wizards can manufacture tents that are as spacious as a real house but not tents that are warm.”

Hermione can cure Harry from Nagini inflicted wounds, unlike the finest MediWizards St Mungos have to offer, but she can’t produce a Warming Charm? On the one hand, I might have read too much fan-fiction, on the other, JKR changes people’s abilities from chapter to chapter to fit her plot. Not that this is essential to the plot, she probably thought it was atmospheric writing. Still it’s her fault – if she was more realistic about Hermione’s abilities in the first place, then it would be easier to swallow when she couldn’t do something.

- “So Harry follows the deer. Without telling Hermione where he is going. Is the boy stupid, or what? Oh, but he knows this is no Dark Magic.”

Arrrrggghhh!! He leaves Hermione asleep with NO WAND. I know they have protections around the tent, but if he’s hurt/delayed, she’ll have to leave the tent and wander round the forest looking for him with nothing to protect her. I’ve heard some apologists say that these badly paced camping chapters were essential for the Hero’s development. What? He’s already been out there for an epoch. Yet he’s blaming her for his broken wand as opposed to thanking her for saving his worthless carcass, taking her for granted (even more than usual) and now is prepared to abandon her with no warning/explanation. Plus how does the whole camping sequence end? With Harry being careless and Hermione almost dying because of it - great development. He’s as crap a friend to her as he is a protagonist.

Harry KNEW it was no Dark Magic, just as he KNEW Stan Shunpike was no willing Death Eater - I’m still not convinced. Remind me, did he think of Lily, like he thought of James when he saw the stag in Book 3? If he’s going to make a stupid mistake, I’d rather it was because he thought Lily was somehow trying to help him, then he just KNEW.

- “By the way, how does Snape know where Harry and Hermione are?”

Didn’t Hermione have a painting of Phineus Nigellus Black in her bottomless pit of a bag? I think he went back and forth between that and his portrait in Snape’s office, waiting for one of them to mention their location. Ropey, I know, but I’m always pathetically grateful when JKR actually tries to fill in a plot hole, instead of Snape just happening by on the off chance.

Re: Part One

[anehan]

if she was more realistic about Hermione’s abilities in the first place, then it would be easier to swallow when she couldn’t do something

Yes! Either she is super-Hermione or she isn't. Or maybe it's just that Rowling is so inconsistent with what magic can or cannot do that it leads to this kind of stupidities.

I’ve heard some apologists say that these badly paced camping chapters were essential for the Hero’s development

Development? What development? I haven't seen any development here.

just as he KNEW Stan Shunpike was no willing Death Eater - I’m still not convinced

I'm convinced Stan was a real Death Eater, though I think Rowling wants us to believe he wasn't.

Part Two

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

- “I'd like to know why the sword must be at the bottom of a pool.”

Possible Reason 1 - The sword had to be won by an act of bravery - like pulling it out of a rock - not just left lying around for someone to pick up. When instructing Snape, Dumbledore should have made it clear that there had to be some large obstacle to overcome. (I don’t remember what was said) Snape could even have replied that he knew just the thing for a hero such as Potter. JKR would stop the inevitable comparisons to Excalibur if it was obviously tongue in cheek. Plus it wasn’t *that* dangerous a resting place. Snape had seen Harry swimming underwater at length in the Second Task, so why should he, or Dumbledore, think Harry would be so very THICK AS PIG SH*T as to wear a Horcrux round his neck while retrieving it?

Possible Reason 2 - Snape was hoping that Harry would drown.

- “Now this Hermione I like. Looking demented, putting Harry and Ron in their places. "Don't you tell me what to do, Harry Potter!" Sweet, sweet words. If only she remembered them when Harry was being his usual self.”

This Hermione seems to surface with Ron or relating to Ron. I think this sometimes emotional, but ferociously strong Hermione is the real one. It might get a bit old, but I think it’s healthier. The timid, scared of standing up to anyone, cringing Hermione is the one which deals directly with Harry and is pathetic. She’s a far more capable person than him, but puts on this weak act which sticks in my throat because he’s the ‘Chosen One’ (it better have nothing to do with gender)

- “Ah, the magical Deluminator appears. Or rather, Deus Ex Machina, as I prefer to call it. One of many in the series. And of course Dumbledore would know Ron would need it. The man can't stop meddling even after he is dead.”

I wish Dumbledore had left Ron Sirius’ mirrors. The way it was written, Harry led Sirius to his death for no reason, as he had them all the time. This made at least one reader despise his intelligence even more. It would be better if they had nothing to do with Sirius. Dumbledore could just think (rightly) they'd be useful, rather than know Ron's character inside out, despite hardly ever talking to him. Yes, they would still be Deus Ex Machina, but far better than suddenly learning that an already established object had a completely new, and 'amazingly useful at that moment in time' function. At least the mirrors, one of which Ron would give to Harry, would be introduced as a method of communication. Harry could just call for Dobby in Malfoy Manor.

- “Molly must really hate him, only she can't admit it to herself, so she takes it out in this passive-aggressive way.”

I don’t think she hates him in particular, I think Ron’s insecurity (did JKR ever mention it?) is more to blame for his feelings in this chapter. As for the pyjamas, I just think she’s a nagging domineering woman who colour coordinates her children and expects everyone to fall into line. Growing up is not an option. Why do you think Bill spent time in Egypt and grows his hair long despite her reaction, or Charlie lives in Romania, or Arthur has a shed? Her reaction to Ron becoming prefect was that everyone in the family had got a badge. Saying that in front of the twins was impressive in its tactlessness. I’m sure they all love her, even as adults, but in small doses.

Re: Part Two

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

IMHO, they ought to have discovered the capabilities of the deluminator much earlier in this laughingly called adventure. Possibly when they first escaped from Yaxley. Or very soon after. Something ought to have separated them much earlier and Ron didcovered that it could lead him back when it *didn't especially matter*.

He could have gone out after information, so we weren't sitting in a tent in a vacuum. He could have been out on an fact-finding mission when the doe showed up and come back early in the nick of time. He could have stormed out exactly as he did, got over his sulks and come back to apoogize -- exactly as he did. But something ought to have made the stupid deluminator an integral part of the story rather than something tossed in only when it was needed, and then forgotten about.

ETA: after all. We knew the Mellenium Falcon existed *before* it showed up in the trench. *That's* what made its appearance so efffective.

Re: Part Two

[anehan]

Possible Reason 2 - Snape was hoping that Harry would drown.

Somehow I prefer this explanation. ;-D

because he’s the ‘Chosen One’ (it better have nothing to do with gender)

It may not have anything to do with gender on conscious level, but the gender politics of these books are such that I wouldn't rule that out either.

I don’t think she hates him in particular, I think Ron’s insecurity (did JKR ever mention it?) is more to blame for his feelings in this chapter.

Oh, I don't think Molly really prefers Harry to Ron. It's just Ron's insecurity when it comes to Harry speaking out of the locket. I was merely referring to the pyjamas. I think there's something very unhealthy about the relationship Molly has with her children and with Ron in particular.