Deathly Hallows Epilogue

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

This is it! The end of the book. Thank you all for bearing with it. It was a long, hard road.

Looking forward to Sistermagpie's sporking of Prisoner of Azkaban!

Nineteen Years Later

There isn’t all that much to say about this epilogue that hasn’t been said before, but there is a definite change in tone as it starts with an idyllic autumn day as “crisp and golden as an apple.” People have called this epilogue treacle-y, but the sweetness is good after all that action and angst.

Either JKR did write this long before the tortured prose of the earlier chapters, or her relief at reaching the end was so strong that pours out on the page.

We are introduced gradually to the unnamed family. Harry speaks, so we know it’s him. The first child who speaks is Lily, who is whinging about wanting to go to school, too. It’s a bit of a shout out to Ginny’s first appearance in the books, and it’s absolutely bizarre how every single child in this series can’t wait to leave home for several months. There is not one of them who ever experiences the slightest bit of homesickness.

Albus is the second one named. And he’s whinging about the possibility of being placed in Slytherin House.

Ginny then tells James to give it a rest, which is slightly confusing because it makes it seem like James is the one complaining.

But then James cuts in to defend himself. “I only said he might be. There’s nothing wrong with that. He might be in Slyth—“

And then he stops at the look in Ginny’s eyes.

So, right away, we know a few things about this family: 1) They’re all whiners. 2) James is a bully. 3) Ginny is not to be trifled with.

And 4) Calling someone a Slytherin is such an effective insult that even the possibility of being sorted there is enough to cause tears.

James runs ahead like the minature alpha male he is, and Albus worries that his parents won’t write, or that they will write more than the once a month that James says is proper.

Harry tells Albus not to believe his older brother because James “likes a laugh.” Teasing brothers, lying to them, playing practical jokes on them—that’s all a laugh. It’s also a laugh to do that to other students. Unless it’s doing it to Slytherins—which is justice (pre-emptive or otherwise), or Slytherins doing it to anyone else, in which case it’s bullying. Got it. Only took me seven books!

They pass through the barrier and the steam from the Hogwarts express is so incredibly dense that Harry and his family are unable to distinguish any faces at all in the crowd. Harry hears Percy Weasley talking and is thankful that he can’t see him and therefore doesn’t have to talk to him.

I guess Percy hasn’t been completely forgiven after all.

The only people they are glad to see are Ron and Hermione and their kids. We find out their names are Rose and Hugo, and at least they aren’t named Arthur and Molly. I guess because Ron doesn’t feel the need to replicate his parents in his kids.

But I can’t help noticing that Rose and Hugo have the same initials as Ron and Hermione—and that they fit nicely with Ron and Hermione’s first dates: (Viktor) Hugo and (Lavender) Rose. I’m sure that’s all in my own head, because it’s so weird and random a thing to do with names. But there it is.

So, Ron tells Harry that Hermione didn’t think he could pass a simple driving test—which Hermione denies, but even I don’t believe her. Then Ron admits to Harry that he didn’t pass the test and used magic to cheat. So, we know that the wizard contempt for Muggle customs hasn’t changed. I find it kind of weird that Ron waited until his late thirties to get his driving license. Is that a British thing?

Oops. And here’s Ron threatening to disinherit his daughter if she doesn’t get into Gryffindor. Reinforcing the competition between Houses.

And right after that, we get Ron warily pointing out Draco Malfoy, his wife and child. Draco nods curtly after noticing all four Weasley/Potter adults staring at him. That’s pretty rude of them when you think about it. Has Draco been off in Portugal for nineteen years or something?

Also, Ron knows the name of Draco’s kid and demands that Rose beat the kid in every test. So… is this the weird Weasley/Malfoy feud continuing? Why the hell is Ron being so hostile to some kid he never saw before?

Could he be--gasp!--prejudging a child based on his feelings towards the kid’s father? Nonsense. Only bitter, twisted semi-evil old virgins professors do that sort of thing, right?

Of course, I’ve read posts from readers who contend that Scorpius must be evil, like his father, because he’s named Scorpius. I don’t really understand that logic, although I guess there’s some evil character named Scorpius in some television show or something? Or is it a video game? Anyway, I doubt JKR had that character in mind when she wrote this chapter seventeen years ago.

And Scorpius Malfoy doesn’t strike me as any more inherently evil as a name than Sirius Black or Remus Lupin.

I can’t help noticing, also, that Ron gets to embody all this wizard prejudice towards Slytherin and the Malfoys so that we get to know that it’s still there—but Harry can be above it. And Hermione, who tells Ron not to start turning the kids against each other before they even start school—even though she just finds his attitude amusing.

And she’s right. There’s no need for that Ron. I’m sure that the school will do a perfectly fine job in turning them against each other through the course of the school year.

Then Ron tells Rose that Arthur will never forgive her if she ends up marrying a pureblood wizard. So, while we can hope that prejudice against Muggleborn is fading away, prejudice against pureblood is going strong!

Let’s see. Percy supposedly married Penelope Clearwater (Muggleborn) and Ron married Hermione (Muggleborn). Charlie didn’t marry anyone. Bill married a French quarter-Veela. Is Angelina Johnson pureblood or not? Did George get blasted off the family clock if she was? (Note: Most of this information comes from the documentary on JKR, not from canon.)

Then we get about a page of dialogue to inform us about the fortunes of various characters. Teddy Lupin is through with school and “snogging” the daughter of Bill and Fleur. Plus, he’s close to the family already through being Harry’s godson.

Neville Longbottom is the Professor of Herbology at Hogwarts (no mention of his barkeeping wife, though.)

James aims a kick at his little brother, teases him by mentioning thestrals, kisses his mother, hugs his dad, and runs off into the train. What a charming lad he is! Why, he reminds me of a young Dudley Dursley!

Poor little Albus is now about to throw up at the thought of invisible skeletal horses. Obviously this kid is not Gryffindor material.

Harry comforts Albus by telling him that thestrals are sweet and not scarey and that he won’t have to encounter then this year. Then he tells him that he actually knew a brave Slytherin once, that he and Ginny won’t stop loving him if he is sorted into Slytherin, and that he can just tell the Hat to put him somewhere else.

And that’s the moral of the story, I guess. Maybe you were born into that quarter of the population naturally inclined to evil—but you have the choice to ask the Hat not to condemn you immediately.

And maybe—just maybe—the Hat will listen.

Finally, we get everyone staring at Harry because he’s famous and Ron making a joke about it. The joke being that anyone might possibly be staring at Ron. Lest we were worried about it, we’re reassured that Harry is still the prettiest one!

And then the train leaves and Harry suffers a pang of separation anxiety. Ginny comforts him by saying that the boys will be fine. Harry touches his scar and tells her knows that—because the scar no longer hurts, which means that Voldemort is still dead.

And, since there couldn’t possibly ever be another Dark Wizard, all is well.

Fan Service:
Harry names his children just like a fanfic author!


Fan Slappage:
Draco is prematurely balding. Take that fan girls!
Harry named a kid after Albus Dumbledore. Ewww!

DVD Extras:

EXT: DAY – KING’S CROSS STATION PLATFORM

As the train pulls away, Harry and Ginny’s hands abruptly stop waving and drop to their sides. Ron and Hermione each grab onto one of Hugo’s hands.

HARRY
See you.

GINNY
I thought you were going to take Lily out for an ice cream.

HARRY
I have to get to work.

Ginny sighs. A tall young man with blue hair emerges from the steam clouds left by the train. It’s obviously Teddy Lupin.

TEDDY
I can take the kids, Aunt Ginny. I was hoping we could make it a holiday.

LILY
Teddy!

He hugs Lily, who runs over to him. Hugo follows, climbing familiarly onto Teddy’s back.

HERMIONE
You don’t mind?

TEDDY
Nah. Shall we go to Diagon Alley?

HUGO
Diagon! Diagon!

He gathers up the two kids and they all disappear into the steam. Ginny turns to leave as well.

GINNY
See you at home then.

Left together, Harry, Ron and Hermione smile at each other.

RON
Been awhile, Harry.

HARRY
It’s summer. There’s always more obliviating to do in summer.

They start strolling toward the parking lot. As they pass onto the street, Ginny can be glimpsed in the background crossing the street. She pauses at the doorway to a dark bar, looks around furtively, and then darts inside.

Harry slaps himself in the forehead.

HARRY
Sorry—I forgot something.

He turns back into the station. Ron and Hermione shrug at each other.

CUT TO:

Harry, walking through the steam clouds of the station. He is anxiously looking around for something. He passes a pillar, barely noticing that Draco Malfoy is lounging against it.

Harry stops and does a double-take.

DRACO
Potter.

HARRY
Where’d your wife go?

DRACO
She had a thing. Noticed you staring earlier.

HARRY
Shut up. (There is an awkward silence.) So… Leaky Cauldron?

DRACO
I already booked a room.

Harry nods curtly and turns to go. Draco draws his wand and points it at Harry’s back.

DRACO
Expelliarmus!

Harry’s wand flies out of his hand and clatters to the platform. Draco scoops it up.

HARRY
Draco! Goddamnit! Stop that!

DRACO
(grinning) I’m the Master of the Elder Wand! I’m the Master of the Elder Wand!

HARRY
(rolling his eyes)
Please. You are not. That’s been over forever.

DRACO
(handing Harry the wand) Then who is?

HARRY
Some vagrant in Knockturn Alley, I think. Happened my first day as an auror.

DRACO
Doesn’t that worry you? Maybe he’ll go steal the wand.

HARRY
Like he remembers. He was dead drunk at the time.

They grin and walk away side by side into the mist, knocking their shoulders together.

CUT TO:

PARKING LOT – KING’S CROSS STATION

Ron and Hermione get into their car. Hermione immediately sticks a magical device (which is most definitely not a Bluetooth headset) into her ear and pulls a pile of papers out of her briefcase.

HERMIONE
Don’t forget to check your mirrors.

RON
(annoyed)
I was going to!

HERMIONE
You always forget. (She touches her device in her ear:) Thickness? Did you get that brief about Elvish welfare I sent you?... That’s the one…. No, it isn’t a step backward… Let me explain.

Ron frowns and throws the car into reverse to back out of the parking spot—without checking the mirrors.

Ginny appears briefly in the back window, weaving slightly as she walks.

With a THUD, the car stops and Ginny abruptly drops out of sight.

Ron and Hermione glance at each other puzzled.

HERMIONE
What was that?

RON
Speed bump.

He pulls forward and speeds away, as a crowd of Muggles gasp and run to Ginny’s body, which is lying on the pavement.

FADE OUT

Comments

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

Yes. One of the things that I will never understand about Rowling is that she doesn't seem to see that certain acts (rape and torture, notably) are wrong in themselves, no matter who does them.

Rape?????? Sorry, who raped whom in these books????? My mind is boggling!


BTW, original post above very funny. :D

I've enjoyed reading this comm, off and on. :)

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Well - this has been discussed before, but it is strongly implied that Umbridge was raped by the centaurs in OOTP. On the other hand, I can understand and sympathize with Hermione's actions there; what gets me is the kids' cruelty in the hospital later. Just as I hate Harry sneering at poor Marietta. And there is no excuse at all for the torture scene. There should have been some consequences to Harry for that, but no. His soul remains pure. Yuck.

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

it is strongly implied that Umbridge was raped by the centaurs in OOTP.

It is????????????? Well, I've not read OotP for some years, but this reading of the text certainly takes me aback!

OK, I need some clarification here. Do you mean you think this horrific meaning is actually implied by the author herself??? Because, without wanting to sound like a 'canon whore' (LOL), whatever one thinks of Rowling's writing, her leftist credentials are fairly impeccable, e.g. worked for Amnesty International, votes for the Labour Party. I find it difficult (make that impossible) to believe that a woman in her position would intend or imply any sexual violence in her books. Especially as the books are Children's/Young Adult fare. (And wasn't her ex-hubby abusive, or something?)

Or do you mean this is something that readers have read into the text and that JKR is blissfully unaware that people could extrapolate this from the narrative? In which case, the theory seems really OTT to me ... especially for a children's book. For some reason I'm reminded of those feminist critics who interpreted Frodo and Sam venturing into Shelob's Lair as symbolising Tolkien's hatred of women (the tunnel representing the vagina and Shelob representing the dark side of female sexuality ... or something). And while I suppose there might be something in this colourful literary theory, mainly I feel like saying: HANDS OFF MY TOLKIEN, THANK YOU. :D Not that I feel about Rowling the way I feel about Tolkien ...

I agree with you about Harry's 'Crucio', and I dislike how Marietta is treated, certainly. But Umbridge being RAPED?????? Seriously, a book written for KIDS -- OK, teenagers -- in which the young heroes and heroines are mocking a woman who's been gang-raped??? I'm not buying it.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

I actually agree with you. It didn't occur to me when I first read it; it was only on reading various opinions on the internet (!) that I realised that this was a relatively wide-spread opinion. JKR's use of so many mythical creatures is one of the things I enjoyed about her work - I certainly don't think it makes her unoriginal. There probably hasn't been a truly original idea in fantasy for hundreds of years. However the problem was that she frequently failed to give it her own twist. There's a discussion somewhere in these comments about werewolves along those lines. JKR could have done what she wanted with them - it's her world - but she didn't really bother. There's a difference between leaving a gap to create discussion/encourage imagination and leaving a gap for readers to invent their own rules and this is what JKR did again and again.

Centaurs in the Wizarding World are basically 'haughty' and 'noble', so unless otherwise guided, it's possible that readers will attribute to them the existing characteristics they have in Muggle mythology - including a real reputation for sexual violence. Like you, I’m not convinced, but I acknowledge the possibility. If JKR knew the first thing about Centaurs, which she should if she was going to use them in her world, she'd know that reputation. So why she had them carry off a woman into the forest as they frequently did in myths, without considering that people might think it ended in the exact same way, I'm not sure. (That said, everyone here has put a lot more thought into the series than JKR did after the first four books.) As I said above, if she wanted to use the 'woman being carried away by the Centaurs' idea, she could have made damned sure that she didn't put Umbridge's downfall in Hermione's hands. The extremely well read and intelligent muggle-born and bred witch who would have read every muggle fact about Centaurs the minute she realised they existed in her new world - probably before she first got on the Hogwarts Express. If Harry had led Umbridge to the Centaurs, we'd know his intentions were simply to 'escape' - because we knew his thoughts (and lack of basic knowledge). Hermione's characterisation was such that you could believe that she'd behave with malicious intent to another woman because she'd done it before. This was the girl who saw nothing wrong in scarring a girl for life for daring to put her mother's cause above the DA. Forgetting anything sexual, if the idea was that Centaurs wouldn't hurt children, she must have known that they *would* hurt Umbridge.

Anyway, my real problem (like mary_j_59) is that JKR made them all laugh at her after the event - *whatever* it was. Not because she was raped, I really can't believe Harry for one, was supposed to have realised that was a possibility, but because she got her 'come-uppance'. The woman was in total shock and had been through a bad physical experience and their behaviour was deeply in-appropriate for people we're supposed to admire and root for. It's all part of the culture she actively promoted that bullying and bitchiness is fine as long as your tie has red/gold stripes. Cruelty and torture are defined as being wrong not in themselves, but dependent on whose responsible. As an adult, I have no need for my reading matter to be morally sound, just entertaining, but really - this series ends as a moral cess-pit!

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

@ tdotm: I agree with a lot of what you say here ... Rowling has a very inventive imagination but it lacks depth. There are at least three really interesting potential novels hidden within the Potter series that would have made great adult reading, IMO. (Make that the individual stories of Severus, Sirius and Remus respectively).

There's a difference between leaving a gap to create discussion/encourage imagination and leaving a gap for readers to invent their own rules and this is what JKR did again and again.

I agree. I am very fond of the HP books but I have often found HP fanfiction, and various HP theories, a lot more interesting than the actual text ...!!

As for centaurs equalling sexual violence, well, my first introduction to centaurs was through Narnia! And centaurs were benign and noble in that, if not to be messed with.

Anyway, my real problem (like mary_j_59) is that JKR made them all laugh at her after the event - *whatever* it was. Not because she was raped, I really can't believe Harry for one, was supposed to have realised that was a possibility, but because she got her 'come-uppance'. The woman was in total shock and had been through a bad physical experience and their behaviour was deeply in-appropriate for people we're supposed to admire and root for. It's all part of the culture she actively promoted that bullying and bitchiness is fine as long as your tie has red/gold stripes. Cruelty and torture are defined as being wrong not in themselves, but dependent on whose responsible.

Hard to argue with that!

As an adult, I have no need for my reading matter to be morally sound, just entertaining, but really - this series ends as a moral cess-pit!

For me that's a bit strong. I read HP purely for entertainment and at worst 'shallow' is the word I would use. I thought the first HP book was not unlike Roald Dahl's stories, with their sense of the humorously macabre and the horrible comeuppances for the villains and maybe, when all is said and done, the series really doesn't mature much beyond that in its various moral scenarios. I enjoyed reading DH, although it has plenty of flaws (plot holes galore, for one thing). But a redemptive arc is there, nonetheless.

It's not as if Rowling is the first children's author to come under fire: C.S. Lewis and Philip Pullman have their fair share of detractors!

[oryx_leucoryx]

I enjoyed reading DH, although it has plenty of flaws (plot holes galore, for one thing). But a redemptive arc is there, nonetheless.

My problem was that after DH I felt the characters most in need for redemption after the war was over were Harry and Hermione. That's not how one normally expects to find the supposed heroes at the end of their adventures and ordeals.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

I'm afraid I have to disagree about the redemptive arc. Harry starts the series as an unremarkable boy who has greatness thrust upon him, but tries to do good. He ends the series as an appalling young man, self-centred to the point of cruelty, who deserves exactly none of the admiration given to him. 'His'achievements are usually due to others' hard work.

In the early books, despite a great deal of luck, Harry always does his best and is braver than you'd expect from a child. Fighting the Basilisk is his true 'heroic' high point. In PoA, even though you suspect he'll regret it, his heart's in the right place in saving Wormtail. By OotP, his reckless refusal to listen to the Official Brains of the Trio (and basic common sense) makes him culpable for Sirius' death. In Deathly Hallows, this continued recklessness gets Hermione tortured – he learns nothing about self-discipline in the intervening 1,000 pages since the events in the Ministry. It’s not even his lowest point – don’t forget torturing the enemy to 'teach them a lesson' - a truly evil act. He also does it from the safety of his Invisibility Cloak - a truly cowardly act.

Hermione started the series as a breath of fresh air. A character that was flawed, yet honest to herself and all the more attractive for it. Then JKR started adding the heartless, ruthless aspects, until Scargate in OotP showed her as a younger version of Umbridge. They were both happy to do unspeakable things in the name of loyalty to their 'boss'. I honestly see no difference between the basic behaviour of the two - with one exception. We're supposed to approve of Hermione's bad behaviour because she's on the 'right' side - she continues to get away with it throughout the rest of the series, with no hint that she’s wrong. This is never going to be acceptable to me - I think it's morally bankrupt. I believe the wrong thing for the right reason is still the wrong thing.

As the world is apparently going to end in 2012, I doubt there's enough time left for me to go into Dumbledore's failings - which as the obvious authority figure are even more damaging to the series. Then there are characters which started off well then suddenly crumbled at the end. McGonagall's ridiculous (and wildly out of {original} character) appreciation for Harry's use of the Unforgiveable is an obvious one. The twins started off relatively amusing and ended up as bullying gits with never a hint of understanding that they were ever in the wrong. Sirius and James Potter joined the list of characters that were not just realistically flawed, but downright unpleasant, with no hint from the author that it mattered.

Ron got a hint of redemption with the locket thing and facing up to his weaknesses, manufactured though that whole, over-familiar sub-plot was. Neville also developed over the series (though over the top at the end) but neither of them was that bad in the first place. The characters I believe JKR failed the most with, were the ones she tried the hardest to portray as heroes. Leaving aside the major plot-holes (agree with you there!) a real problem with DH was it continued the later HP trend for bullying, cowardice, arrogance and ignorance to be merrily accepted - even held up for admiration - if the 'right' people were showing those traits. In my opinion, HP didn't have a redemptive arc – it was more of a one way line plunging downwards...

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

It's really hard for me to figure out what JKR meant with the centaurs. It's almost like she took the C.S. Lewis version (wise, star-reading Sagittarian centaurs) as the default. But she was clear about them being proud and disdainful of humans and quick to violence when they felt insulted.

Hmm. So, I decided to look up centaurs on Wikipedia for a little background information and there's a tidbit there that says JKR drew her inspiration from C.S. Lewis for the centaurs. Which makes sense to me. It's quite possible then that she ignored the association of centaurs with "lower" animal instincts and sexual violence. C.S. Lewis certainly did.

On the other hand, C.S. Lewis never included a scene where the centaurs carry a protesting woman away and she's later shown with twigs and leaves in her hair and post-traumatic stress.

What I remember from my kid's book of Greek myths is that Hercules' wife was tricked by a centaur into letting him carry her over a stream and that he then attempted to kidnap her. I think there was also the story of women being carried away from a wedding. Even as a kid I knew that wasn't for good purposes.

But it's really, really hard to tell with JKR whether she's not seeing the implications of her writing or whether this is a "joke" she's sharing with the adults and thinking it'll go over the heads of children. It's pretty clear that she meant Aberforth's meddling with goats to be taken as a sexual joke with adults (from her cagy answer to a 10 year old who asked about it). So, she's not completely unaware of what she's doing.

I wonder what it's going to be like for those 10 year olds when they start reading this series to their children. Sometimes when you revisit your favorite books as an adult you can be shocked at what you missed.

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

Sometimes when you revisit your favorite books as an adult you can be shocked at what you missed.

Well, yes. I love Narnia but have read some pretty harsh reactions to it from people who didn't read it as children and fell under its enchantment (as I did) but who have real issues with some of Lewis's politics.

In which case, I can feel as if someone just kicked my puppy. :D Because I loves my Narnia!!!!1111111 Not that I'm incapable of critiquing Lewis as an adult reader.

I'm honestly having a hard time believing that JKR would insinuate such a disturbing thing as gang rape. *shudder*

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

That's the thing. There are these.... implications. But if you call them out, it can seem like it's just your dirty mind.

I would have had a hard time believing that JKR would insinuate someone having sex with goats. But it seems like she did.

But it's all that it is. An inference. A hint. We really have no way of knowing what was in her mind.

I find the Marietta thing just as shocking. I think JKR just finds it a comical commuppance, like Violet Beauregarde turning purple in Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, but it brings up all sorts of disturbing associations for me, like shaving the heads of collaborators or scarring women with acid. Since JKR worked for Amnesty International, I find it hard to think that she wouldn't know about those practices and how abhorrent they are.

But would she make that connection? I really don't know.

[oryx_leucoryx]

With Marietta Rowling could have toned it down by making it a temporary condition. Harry could have still disliked her and could have wanted to avoid Cho because she maintained the friendship with Marietta without feeling smug about Marietta's continued disfigurement (over something she can't remember doing, mind you - Kingsley Obliviated her during the hearing).

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Well, this *could* just be another of those cases where Rowling threw something in without paying attention to what kind of traditional baggage it dragged in with it.

She thought it would be cool to have Centaurs in the forest. Fine. However, traditionally, Centaurs have been attributed with committing rape against women (human or nymph) without a lot of provocation since ancient Greece. You cannot unwrite the role of Centaurs in mythology or literature. You could contradict it in your own version, but Rowling doesn't do that. So the element remains in play.

Since, as you say, the books were marketed for children, the aware reader is willing to dismiss this facet of tradition as inappropriate and irrelevant. *Until* Rowling throws us a situation in which the possibility is simply too prominent to ignore.

We would continue to ignore it, however, except that Umbridge's reaction after her ordeal is simply too extreme to be that of a bully who has merely been bullied in turn. And we know that Rowling studied classics, so *she* is certainly aware of the baggage involved.

Whether she actually *intends* for the reader to draw this conclusion is less apparent. I think that she can hardly be unaware that many of her college-aged and adult readers will do so. But for so long as she does not admit as much, the marketing of the books for children will loan her some plausible deniability. Which I am sure that she is more than willing to enshroud herself.

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

Well, this *could* just be another of those cases where Rowling threw something in without paying attention to what kind of traditional baggage it dragged in with it.

Could be. She doesn't pay that much attention to the Byronic/Heathcliff-type type archetype that Snape clearly embodies, for one thing.

But I am really having a hard time with the idea that she would ever imply RAPE.

Kind of reminds me of a theory much beloved by Tolkien fanficcers back in the day, that Frodo was gang-raped by the Orcs in Cirith Ungol. (GAAAAAAAH! No, precious!)

[oryx_leucoryx]

Well, a large component of fans posting on fansites read Ariana's ordeal as rape. Once you see instance of rape in the series the other pretty much jumps at you.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

We had a long discussion about that in an earlier chapter. I thought people made some pretty good points against it being a rape--although I definitely saw that implication when I read the book.

And you're right. If you can accept the inference that a child was raped by a gang of boys, it's not hard to see Umbridge being raped by a herd of centaurs. Especially since we also have Fenrir slavering over Hermione and being a metaphorical pedophile.

[pearlette.livejournal.com]

Ah, yes. Ariana's ordeal, and Hermione's ... definite rape overtones, particularly in Hermione's case, and I am sure those were deliberate.

But with Umbridge, we're talking about the possibility of a female author writing gang rape as a punishment for one of her female characters. *BOGGLE* I mean, seriously, WTF, that is even more disturbing than the Marietta thing. I just can't believe Rowling would go down that route. :(

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

But she justifies torture, and, as you pointed out, she worked for Amnesty. So she's demonstrably inconsistent about certain moral/ethical questions. Besides, the way she writes about relationships sends all kinds of mixed (and pretty toxic) messages about abuse,

As you said before, I doubt any of this was intentional. But it's there. The mixed messages, I mean. They drive me crazy.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Hey! I see many others have already commented on this one - but, just to recap, Umbridge is practically catatonic when we see her in the hospital, obviously deeply traumatized and having flashbacks - and the kids mock her! What, reasonably, knowing what we know of centaurs in mythology, could have happened to her to traumatize her so deeply? But I don't especially like the way Rowling approaches sexuality and relationships, anyway. (And the thing about the goats really threw me for a loop. I would have thought nothing of it had she not asked the small child who asked about it: "How old are you," and then tiptoed around her answer.) Worse yet, there is something very meanspirited and vindictive about these books that turns me off. I really do think they are morally bankrupt, as well as artistically flawed - and yet Rowling, as you said, is a genius in some ways.

But let's not argue. We don't differ all that much, really. I do admire the sporkers here because I would never be able to force myself to read DH again. I haven't read many books that I enjoyed less, and I've never been so disappointed in the conclusion of a series. It's a pity, because I really loved the first five books, in spite of their obvious flaws. Now the whole series is wrecked for me.

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

Exactly - we don't know precisely what happened - it's how the 'good guys' react that is so unpleasant (and disturbing). I've just posted a long rant above about the same.

I really enjoyed Goblet, despite the obvious 'why didn't 'Moody' portkey Harry out of there in the second week of September' plothole. I also enjoyed Order and Prince to a lesser extent, despite increasing dislike for some of the main protagonists. They rambled, but I'm easy about that as long as I'm entertained. It was DH that ruined the series for me - because it was boring. Once my mind started to wander, there were too many things for me to pick apart and my dislike for some characters turned to contempt. I ended up hating Harry and Hermione more than Voldemort and Lucius - how is that right?

I haven't re-read DH either and have no plans to - luckily montavilla has taken a MASSIVE bullet for the team!

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

Honestly, this has been a cathartic experience for me. I didn't have as visceral a reaction as some readers--I just felt disappointed without knowing exactly why. I read and read and read... and read a lot of esssays, fanfics, and sporks to help me process that disappointment.

And it helped.

But this has really been a great experience for me. Especially reading all your comments!