PoA Chapter Six

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The first thing Harry notices the next day is that Draco Malfoy is doing impressions of him fainting to laughing crowds. I know this joke will soon get old and people will stop laughing? But I can’t believe they’re even laughing at it now. Either Draco Malfoy is a comic genius and we just don’t hear the routine that goes with the fainting, or wizards have been seriously warped without TV, literature or theater. What teenagers would find this funny?

I mean, as much as I hate to defend HBP!Ginny, her impression of Harry falling off his broom at least had a context to explain why it was funny. The joke was that Harry was bellowing at people when he got socked in the head with a metal ball that should have killed him. Nobody saw Harry faint and there was nothing funny going on at the time.

Pansy Parkinson has a face like a pug. And totally deserves it.

Harry consoles himself with the fact that the only time he and Malfoy faced each other at Quidditch, Malfoy definitely came off the worst. I’ll bet he feels even better when he remembers that the same is true for just about anybody stupid enough to play Quidditch with Harry.

How was McGonagall expecting Hermione to keep this secret about the Time Turner, btw? Even if she doesn’t really have any friends besides Harry and Ron, it’s not like she doesn’t make herself noticeable in class. Don’t tell me that not once during the year did two students not complain about her in conflicting classes to each other and figure it out.

My canon is now that the whole school except Harry and Ron knew that Hermione was using a Time Turner. Several of them even stole it a few times to do something fun.

Oh god, here comes Hagrid swinging a dead polecat. Because he only likes giant predators.

On their way to Divination they pass a painting that’s kind of a Don Quixote rip-off.

I don’t care what anyone says. I like the way Trelawney decorates her room.

The fog in the room makes Harry feel sleepy and stupid. Which might be the most self-aware Harry has ever been.

Harry predicts Ron might work for the MoM. He could be right. Maybe Ron’s just got 3 jobs instead of the 2 he gets in post-DH interviews.

Once again Hermione randomly decides that something is illogical while accepting that she can turn a frog into a teacup by waving a stick over it. And naturally she’s kind of right.

Or not. If Trelawney's seeing a big, black dog in Harry’s tealeaves, she’s right. And in HBP she was batting something like .397.

McGonagall then announces that Trelawney’s an idiot and Divination is worthless. Harry Potter: So awesome he makes useless subjects true!

Seriously, all Trelawney's true predictions center around Harry. Which I guess validates the centaurs views as well.

McGonagall also says Trelawney predicts a student’s death every year. Ron must be silently resenting why she had to pick Harry this year, stealing what he’d think was his one chance to be the center of interest.

I do like the implication that Hermione really does dislike Divination because she can’t be good at it, but since it really does seem to be a crock, I can’t like it that much. It seems to basically just be a class for poseurs who like putting on an act.

Ron and Hermione aren’t speaking to each other now. I'm sure the crazy hot make-up sex is the heart of their marriage.

Oh god, give me a second to gird my loins for Hagrid’s dumb class.

If you’re waiting for any parallel to be drawn between Draco’s attitude towards Hagrid and Hermione’s attitude towards Trelawney, stop. They’re exact opposites, because Hagrid’s a noble drunk and Trelawney’s a useless drunk. Or something. Also Hagrid’s a half-giant and Malfoy’s a jerk.

Yup, Malfoy’s a total jerk, even calling into question Hagrid’s being qualified to teach class.

Hagrid leads up the animals and introduces them by saying the first thing to know about ‘em is that they’re proud, so don’t insult one or it’s the last thing you’ll do. Malfoy, Crabbe and Goyle are whispering in an undertone, the same way Harry and Hermione and Ron have done a dozen times before. Only it’s totally different to do it in this class, so what happens is totally their fault.

I have to go off on this here, because in the past I’ve gotten in tons of long, detailed lectures on how peoples’ riding instructors gave speeches on how dangerous horses were where they made sure everyone was paying attention, and made everyone show they knew the rules, and watched everyone carefully and if they did anything wrong they made them sit out for the day. Only it’s given as an explanation for how Malfoy is wrong here, as if that’s not exactly what Hagrid doesn’t do, and his whole schtick isn’t not getting how dangerous animals are so treating them as if they’re not.

Hagrid’s class isn’t really going over well, so Harry has to step in to back him up. I guess to repay Hagrid for all those times he almost got Harry killed or got Harry in trouble and felt no responsibility for it.

For all the stuff about hippogriffs being proud, apparently they’re okay with Hagrid dumping a kid on their back and slapping them on the ass. I guess since it’s Harry it’s a compliment.

Harry has a big ride full of wonder, proving that if you’re a Gryffindor all animals are glorified taxi services.

Now that Hagrid’s demonstrated proper behavior by treating the hippogriff really carelessly, he sends all the kids into the paddock en masse. What would he have done if they’d all had a chance to take off?

Luckily Malfoy calls Buckbeak a “big ugly brute” (much the way one would probably speak to a beloved pit bull) and the thing rips a big gash in his arm, probably heading off a greater catastrophe. Neville was inches from a meltdown with his own animal.

The Slytherins yell about Hagrid being sacked, proving they suck. These are the type of people who would complain about their kid being petrified in school instead of seeing it as character-building. Probably like child proof medicine caps as well.

The Gryffindors, with Malfoy’s blood still wet on the grass, say it was his fault. Okay yeah, obviously the thing was reacting to Malfoy insulting it like he wasn’t supposed to, but could their little black hearts be smaller or stingier? It’s not even like Malfoy gets sympathy until his dad calls for the animal to be put down (since nobody actually cares about the animal besides Hagrid anyway). They immediately blame the victim.

Harry’s had far worse injuries healed by the nurse. All Harry’s injuries are worse, really, because Slytherin injuries don’t count. You have to have a soul to feel.

“Trust Malfoy to mess things up for [Hagrid],” says Ron, which would be okay if that didn’t seem to be the official reading of the scene. To review: the dozen things Hagrid did to create an obviously crazy unsafe environment for 13-year-olds and wild animals are mistakes any new teacher would make. Malfoy’s mild snottiness and acting like a 13-year-old is unforgivable, indicative of his evil nature and deserving of severe punishment.

In fact, obviously he planned to be attacked to hurt Hagrid. Just like he’ll intentionally force Harry to attack in OotP. Buckbeak and Harry are the real victims here. Draco’s just a master of making people hurt him.

Back at dinner, Harry thinks the Slytherins are cooking up their own version of how Malfoy got injured. Which must be where the whole “Malfoy lied” story always comes up, but I don’t see why Malfoy has to lie (even if he’s malingering, the injury speaks for itself so they can check it).

Note we never exactly hear this “Slytherin version” yet there’s always this vague implication that it’s ruining everything for poor Hagrid. Even though the attack had a dozen witnesses, one of whom was Harry Potter, and pensieves exist.

Hagrid deals with the challenge by drinking—-all the more reason his teaching job should be protected apparently.

Why is it that weakness is so often treated with total contempt while Hagrid sits crying in his beer and blaming his troubles on other people and still sits in the center of the inner circle? I think it’s because Hagrid’s like a pet or a baby so has special license to be pathetic.

Naturally the Trio’s all ready to back Hagrid up. It’s Malfoy’s fault he wasn’t listening. Just like it was Ron’s fault for getting bitten by Hagrid’s dragon. And every student’s fault they didn’t know to stroke their books.

The only reason I can even read this annoying chapter again is that at least I know JKR wrote Hagrid as an unpopular teacher that even the Trio eventually admit is terrible.

Also, weird as it sounds, Malfoy spends the rest of his school career listening very carefully in CoMC. Which I’m sure is a sign of cowardice? But is actually one of the book’s only examples of someone learning something from a mistake!

To review, since obviously this scene bugs me, I don’t have a problem with Malfoy getting a lesson in what happens when you don’t listen in class, or when you dick around with wild animals. (Even if what he did couldn’t actually be considered dicking around in any real sense of the word.) But the way Hagrid immediately gets turned into this innocent victim we’re supposed to rally around so he never has to learn anything drives me nuts. And then people wonder why there are fans who think Slytherins might as well be jackasses since the only time the heroes aren’t happy to watch them die is when they see a chance to dramatically rescue them for their own egos.

Things happening twice:

Ron points out Hermione is scheduled for 3 classes at once. Later she and Harry will be in two places at once.
McGonagall mentions Animagi and turns into one, just like Sirius will. Also transformation turns Lupin into a wolf and Peter into a rat.
Ron has a Great Uncle Bilius and that turns out to be his middle name.
Draco’s attitude in Hagrid’s class, though condemned, is pretty parallel with Hermione’s at Divination.
Harry rides the hippogriff, because he’s going to have to do that again later.
Buckbeak’s slashing will be totally outdone by Harry’s own slashing of Malfoy in HBP.
Also in sixth year Draco will again wind up in a pool of his own blood due to a combination of his own behavior and a Gryffindor’s actions, and again the Slytherins will be seen as making Harry’s life hard by caring.
We meet Sir Cadogan here because he’s going to fill in for the Fat Lady later.
Harry barely listens in Transformation and Malfoy barely listens in CoMC, but everyone knows the first is normal and the second is idiotic because WILD ANIMALS!

It’s a gun. No it isn’t! It’s Chekov! No it isn’t!.
Trelawney’s prediction to Parvati
Beware a red-haired man!
Status: Dud. If only it had been Lavender!
McGonagall’s lesson
Status: 20 gun salute. Harry barely listens to McGonagall telling them that Animagi are wizards who can transform into animals, and barely watches her demonstration as she does it herself, because it’s going to be really important.




Designated Hero
We can tell they’re the good guys because they have no compassion for kids whose injuries either benefit, amuse, bore or cause problems for them and their friends while the compassion they show to innocents is lovingly highlighted.

IITS
How come Divination is arbitrarily the one kind of magic that doesn’t really work? It’s in the script.

"Watermelon, watermelon, cantaloupe, cantaloupe"
I’m sure there were a lot of angry watermelons and cantaloupes coming from the Slytherins in that last scene.

Jabootu Score: 3

Comments

[tdotm.livejournal.com]

I loved the idea of the prophecy too! Especially the way it linked Harry to Neville, that it could so easily have been either of them. I also loved the idea that if Voldemort had just sat on his hands, or Snape had kept his mouth shut, nothing would have happened - it was a great example of a self fulfilling prophecy. However, JKR handled it so badly towards the end. I hated the way, as you point out, that Dumbles just dismissed it, despite the havoc it caused. He should have warned Harry of the great power that knowing the future can bring and the responsibility it entails. He should have warned of the danger of trying to change the future (as opposed to the past, which is handled quite well in this book). He should have warned that trying to prevent something in the future, can actually be the cause of it happening.

Instead, because JKR wanted to poo poo the subject, she torpedoed what could have been an interesting subject the moment it wasn't needed, instead of making it valid in its own right. It really takes away from her story when she rubbishes something on which she built her plot earlier on. Why not say that Divination was as valid a form of telling the future as arithmancy. However prophecys were a whole different ball game, being dependent on having the Inner Eye, a very rare gift. As Trelawney was hardly semi-skilled, they couldn't depend on her properly. Dumbles should have shown more respect for the art, if not the practioner.

Still, it could be worse - it could turn out that Wizards could be their own Secret Keepers and the key event that whole series was based on was pointless. Even JKR wouldn't shoot her series in the foot to that extent! Oh wait...

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

What's weird is that the prophecy is supposed to be rubbish, yet the very people who think so work so hard to bring it about. Voldemort's the only person who does the right thing dramatically, really. He hears that there's one coming who will vanquish him and sets out to make the prophecy not come true by killing him and *that* makes the prophecy come true. There's nothing interesting about people hearing a prophecy and then working to make sure it comes true.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

I despised the prophecy from the moment Albus hinted at it in the end of this book.

Prophecies are bloody stupid plot devices and they generate stupid plots. Worse, they render plots that *weren't* stupid so. Anyone over the age of about 25 who thinks that throwing a prophecy into the mix will be "cool" needs their head examined. Hardly anyone can pull them off acceptably.

(Edited for typo.)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I loved the idea of a real, bona fide, serious, researched, fair dinkum, I-promise-to-use-it-properly prophecy. See my post below if you want to know why. While it wasn't the reason OotP is my favourite HP book (which, these days, is comparable to my talking about my favourite vegetable) it was certainly the best thing to come out of it, the result which boded the best for the next novel.

At least that's how I felt in the period between OotP and HBP ...

*weeps*

:-)

But you hit the nail on the head with this:

Anyone over the age of about 25 who thinks that throwing a prophecy into the mix will be "cool" needs their head examined.

Like so much of what she wrote - particularly with the last 3-4 books - the prophecy was just another gimmick that Rowling 'threw into the mix'. She *needed* it desperately as the foundation for the entire fifth novel; all 880+ pages relied on Dumbledore hiding from Harry through fear of Voldemort finding out about the prophecy, the Order protecting the prophecy, Voldemort inserting visions into Harry because he was the only one who could fetch the prophecy (ha!) and so forth.

But then she treated it horribly in the last two books. Not quite throwing it into the garbage like her other one-book wonders, but giving it lip service, mentioning it a couple of times per novel in the hopes that it would 'stick' and the (gullible) fans would be impressed (wow, a prophecy, it MUST have meant something, surely?!?!!) and so forth.

Pfah.

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Well, to be fair, the prophecy is clearly a part of her original Plan, or she wouldn't have had Albus hinting about it in PoA. She was still proceeding according to the program in PoA. That It was *there* was suggestive of some shoddy thinking back when she drafted the original Plan, but then she was about 25 back then, and these days claims not to really care for fantasy, as a genre, and might not have realized just how tawdry a plot device prophecies really *are*.

After all. Myth is not precisely fiction, except to the dilletante and the disbeliever. Moreover, she studied the classics in college, which are lousy with prophecy.

But while they may be branded as "literatiure* they aren't the kind of fiction that someone makes up out of whole cloth. They were all retellings of an underlying cultural mythology and creation storie which once were taken rather seriously insofar as people used them to tell themselves who they, as a society, were. They are not something that some author arbitraritly dragged in to be "cool". Hammering in the message that you *cannot* defy or escape the gods was the *point*.

So while it might disappoint, it does not astonish me that it is there in the first place. But what it has come to look like to me, is that although she had decided that there was going to *be* a prophecy, she hadn't really worked out how it was supposed to *work* yet. And the original Plan has already unraveled before she actually got to it.

So while she went into the 5th book knowing that this was the one in which she was going to reveal the prophecy, and pretty much what the Prophecy was going to be, she hadn't thought beyond that to how she intended to make use of it. Or not, as the case might be.

(Farah Mendlesohn's book on DIana Wynne Jones very nicely delineates just what I find so odious about the use of prophecies in fantasy novels. They cooly remove any real agency from the characters and their actions, rendering them either unconsious automations, or futile losers.)

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I am totally saving up for that book.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I remember being quite thrilled with the idea of a solid, bona fide, fair dinkum prophecy as it stood at the end of the fifth book. Harry pondering his fate - to be murdered or murderer. Wondering what this 'power the dark lord knows not' could possibly be.

I've read several fan fiction stories which stand as solid testament as to the potential of the prophecy as a device for generating maximum angst and drama. The way that Harry reveals it to his friends - from one at a time, to only those closest to him - with them giving him solace and support - to mass 'broadcasts' to the wizarding populace. The reactions of those who find out. The tension in trying to keep Voldemort from learning the whole thing. Ploys in fabricating 'false prophecies' to give the dark lord. Differences in how the prophecy can be interpreted. Danger where one least expects it ... was Pettigrew's artificial limb fashioned by 'the hand of the other', could Pettigrew therefore kill Harry? What was the meaning of the superficially nonsensical 'neither can live while the other survives' thing? Was Harry immortal? And so forth.

But no. Rowling only mentioned the prophecy twice in the next book - she made a deliberate farce of Harry's unveiling it to his two closest friends (Hermione gets punched in the eye by a joke telescope three nanoseconds after he tells them about it, completely defusing the moment) and then nothing more happens until Dumbledore poo-poos the whole thing. Harry, the prophecy means nothing, there's no power other than your 'love' (which turns out to be bollocks), okay, I let two men, almost three, die protecting it from Voldemort, but really now, put it out of your mind, forget that your beloved godfather died because I put so much priority on protecting the prophecy I failed to tell you anything about it ...

Bleh.

And then in the seventh book it's left unmentioned until the very end, where Harry pays it some lip service in justifying his suicide march, helping to build up his fatalistic determination to die ... and then Rowling has the effrontery to have him quote the darn thing, 'neither must live while the other survives', in the final piece of melodrama against the Dark Lord. Trying to justify the whole thing, having it stick in the readers' minds - oh, Harry mentioned the prophecy, yeah, it must have been relevant after all!

Bah!

It really takes away from her story when she rubbishes something on which she built her plot earlier on.

Precisely. Normally she just drops such one-shot wonders. In this case the prophecy popped in and out of the last two books, meaning almost nothing but just irritating us with its presence (and irritating me when I come across brainwashed fans who insist that Harry was fated to defeat Voldemort 'because of the prophecy', that he *did* have a 'power of love' and so forth - argh!).

Still, it could be worse - it could turn out that Wizards could be their own Secret Keepers and the key event that whole series was based on was pointless. Even JKR wouldn't shoot her series in the foot to that extent! Oh wait...

Hee. :-)

Yes, the entire series is in ruins because of that seventh book, isn't it? She'd given up any pretence of quality control by then.

Albus and the Prophecy, part 1

[oryx_leucoryx]

The following owes much to Jodel, Terri, and countless others:

What was Dumbledore doing with the Prophecy in OOTP if he did not believe in it? Well, at the beginning of OOTP Dumbledore knows te following: Voldemort believed in the prophecy. Voldemort just suffered an unexpected defeat in the graveyard, so between Dumbledore's deductions and Severus' reports Albus knew Voldemort would seek the entire wording before making another move. Albus has known Harry was a Horcrux for quite a while, but from Harry's report of Voldemort's speech Albus finally realized there were more Horcruces besides Harry and the diary. Also, he has recently realized there was a way for Harry to survive the destruction of the Horcrux because of Voldemort's use of his blood. What Albus needed more than anything else was time to find and destroy the Horcruces. He didn't even know how many of them were around because the one most likely to know, Horace Slughorn, disappeared as soon as he heard Albus said Voldemort was back - confirming that indeed he had information Voldemort wanted hidden. So how does one gain time?

First, make sure Voldemort knows as little as possible - which means no mention of the prophecy in front of Harry, whom Dumbledore suspected to have become a Voldemort-communication device, based on the visions of the previous year. Second, convince Voldemort he is on the right track in pursuing the prophecy by having Order members risk their lives protecting it (no, they had no idea they were being used as part of a scam). Third, keep Harry away from the prophecy by not mentioning it to him and later by having him learn Occlumency. Fourth, feed Voldemort disinformation by letting Harry think the Order is protecting some 'weapon'. It didn't work out for long enough because Harry didn't trust his Occlumency teacher and because said teacher's life depended on keeping some of his own secrets from Voldemort, so the lessons had to be ended when Harry looked into the Pensieve.

(Severus knew Albus wouldn't teach Harry because he didn't want Tom to access his secrets. What about Severus' secrets? So he put his most damning and most emotional memories - I believe those would be the hilltop encounter and his mourning of Lily in the headmaster's office under another emotional memory in the Pensieve. He was hiding all 3 from Harry but the other two also from Voldemort. The rest of the important stuff he could guard by Occlumency alone, or so he believed. But he still had the problem of Voldemort being possibly able to spy on the lessons themselves - so he had to give Harry the essentials, but regardless of whether he was capable of teaching any other way, he couldn't afford to be seen to do so. He did tell Harry the purpose of the lessons was to prevent him from being led to act on Tom's wishes, and he told Harry that the Occlumency relied on similar mental skills like resisting the Imperius Curse. If Harry had connected the dots and worked on his own he would have had a chance to learn the skill.)

But did Dumbledore really not believe in the prophecy? Was there nothing in its contents he wanted to keep from Tom?

Albus and the Prophecy, part 2

[oryx_leucoryx]

Let's go back to the night the prophecy was made: Trelawney does poorly in her interview. Albus turns to leave - does that mean the door was ajar or was he still on his way to the door? Sybil starts prophesying. What is Albus doing now? When she comes out of trance Aberforth is holding Severus who is making some stupid excuse and apparently escapes - or does he?

Next time (that we know) that Albus and Severus meet they are on the windswept hilltop. Albus is hostile and suspicious of Severus so this is clearly their first encounter since Albus figured Severus was a DE, possibly their first encounter since the prophecy was made. Pay attention to the following details of their conversation: At first Severus gives the impression Lily is Tom's target. Albus retorts that the prophecy wasn't about a woman but about a boy born at the end of July. Then Albus wants to know how much Severus told - Severus says he told everything he heard, and now Tom thinks it's about Harry and he intends to kill the entire family. Albus does not question the logic or sanity of this move - while he did question Tom's thinking when he thought Severus was saying he was going to target Lily.

My conclusions are that Albus already knew Severus did not hear (or recall) the second part of the prophecy and that Albus believed the prophecy was indeed true. For once, attacking Harry only makes sense if Tom does not know the second half. The only way to avoid marking the would-be vanquisher is to stay away from him. So when Severus says he delivered everything he heard Albus knows it is the entire first part and none of the second. How could that be? Either Albus performed Legilimency on Severus when Aberforth held him, or Albus used an Imperturbable to soundproof the room when he realized Sybil's prophecy might be serious business or he placed Aberforth's memory in the Pensieve and found out the second half wasn't audible outside the room. As to what makes me think Albus (at that point) believed the prophecy - he was willing to reveal his interpretation of it to an untrusted enemy agent who will certainly face Tom in the near future. He didn't even attempt to use the fact Tom did not know the second half as a means to throw Tom off track by feeding him disinformation. After all, the first half can be interpreted in other ways too. It is only the second half that makes it clear the vanquisher wasn't born yet (and was male). 'Voldemort thinks the prophecy is about Lily? Or her son? He is mistaken. It is about an Albanian witch whose parents defied Voldemort many years ago, she arrived in the country shortly after the prophecy was made.' But Albus said it was about a boy born in late July because that was the only interpretation (barring alternative calendars) that fit the entire prophecy. (Well, assuming no babies matching the other criteria were born prematurely after 7 months of pregnancy or 7 months into their parents' marriage that year.)

So how did Albus interpret the prophecy at each stage? Before Godric's Hollow he knew Voldemort will at some point attack Harry, mark him somehow (but what does marking as one's equal mean?), Harry will survive and the two will meet again at least once so they can die at one other's hand. Albus' actions suggest that at least consciously he was trying to delay the initial encounter. The most significant evidence was when he offered himself as Secret Keeper and was unsatisfied with Sirius being given this task. OTOH he thought one of 3 men in his organization was an enemy spy yet he carried on as usual? Even allowing the group photograph to be taken? (Does anyone doubt Peter brought Voldemort a copy of the photograph? No wonder Order members started being taken out one by one after it was made.) And he took away James' invisibility cloak when he was planning for the Potters to remain hidden for years on end (until Harry was 11? 17?) So was he (subconsciously) trying to speed Voldemort on? Or trick the Potters into carelessness?

Albus and the Prophecy, part 3

[oryx_leucoryx]

(This section relies almost entirely on 2 of Terri's essays Keeper of the Keys and The Strongest Shield with some minor twists of my own.)

Immediately after the attack - well, he knew Voldemort made his move. In the Pottercast Rowling claimed Albus had some kind of alarm spell on the Potters' home (one that informed him, not one that could have warned them - what was he thinking?). Other signs might have been noticing the Fidelius Charm was gone - if he was able to remember or speak information that was concealed by the Charm then it was broken. Additionally there must have been some change to Severus' Dark Mark when Tom vaporized. I do not know if he already figured that Lily's actions had anything to do with Harry's survival or he made the decision to take Harry to the Dursleys based on other considerations (such as keeping him away from Sirius the supposed traitor) and figured out the blood-protection within the 24 hours. We do know Hagrid had the opportunity to talk to Minerva sometime between being sent by Albus and the following morning when she started making her way to 4PD, leading me to think Hagrid was not with Harry the entire time, thus giving Albus an opportunity to examine Harry without Hagrid's knowledge. So I think Albus knew Harry contained a bit of Tom's soul from day one. His actions suggest he did not suspect other Horcruces at this point, or he would have found at least the ring sometime in the years between the wars. Now he knew the meaning of Harry being marked by Tom. And why Harry had to die. But why 'either must die at the hand of the other'? If all that needed to happen was Harry's death, bringing about Tom completely leaving this world, that would be perhaps the culmination of Tom's AK at Godric's Hollow, but that would be a very strained interpretation of the prophecy.

Dumbledore tells Harry in OOTP that he was placed with the Dursleys so that the protection that Dumbledore created based on the one derived from Lily's sacrifice would keep him safe from Voldemort's followers. I do not believe he was saying the truth. How can protection from Tom extend to protection from others? Had Bellatrix been with Voldemort at Godric's Hollow and had she attempted to AK Harry immediately after Lily's death would her curse have rebounded as well? We see in PS that when Quirrell is acting on Tom's behalf but isn't physically possessed by Tom he can touch Harry safely. Only when Tom himself is in Quirrell's body does Lily's protection cause burns to Quirrell. Why would it be different for any other protection? Living with Petunia could protect Harry from Tom or anyone parasitized by Tom but nobody else. And the danger of Sirius was neutralized within a day. No, Harry was placed with the Dursleys and kept with them for 10 years (despite the fact that Albus admits that a short stay every year was sufficient to maintain the protection from the absent Voldemort) because growing under these conditions and then being 'rescued' by Albus' sycophantic agent Hagrid led to Harry trusting Dumbledore and being loyal to Dumbledore over all others, so that when Dumbledore told Harry he had to die in order to bring an end to the threat of Voldemort Harry will do it willingly. This was planned to happen when Harry came of age (hence the timing of the end of the protection). If by then Voldemort was still vaporized Harry would commit suicide, thus causing Voldemort to die at Harry's hand. If Voldemort managed to acquire a body by then Harry's death would have to be arranged as willing sacrifice to protect another, so that when Voldemort attacked whoever Harry was protecting (presumably Dumbledore) his curse would rebound on him again - thus Harry dies at Tom's hand and Tom dies at Harry's hand indirectly, without risking anyone's soul.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 3

[eri1980b.livejournal.com]

"such as keeping him away from Sirius the supposed traitor" - just a quick note to say thanks as I ahd forgotten about this completely. It bothers me that Dumbledore didn't just let Sirius take Harry and I have pondered the reasons why, however I did forget that of course Sirius as the "known" secret keeper would have been prime suspect therefore not to be trusted with Harry. I suppose I overthought on the subject. But thanks for reminding me!

Albus and the Prophecy, part 4

[oryx_leucoryx]

During PS Dumbledore was dangling the Stone as bait in front of Voldemort. I do hope he had a plan as to what to do with him had he found Quirrellmort on his own in front of the Mirror of Erised. But at the same time he was dangling the same bait in front of Harry, starting from making sure Harry saw the Stone being retrieved from Gringotts. Severus' potions riddle was designed to allow only one person at a time to enter the last room where the Stone was being kept (by having just one swallow worth of the potion for moving forward, and presumably having a refilling charm on the container). It is very likely that Dumbledore had some kind of alarm spell that notified him when the last room was entered, judging from the timing of his return from London and the fact that he knew both Quirrell and Harry were there. So he shows up to the sight of Harry and Quirrellmort literally at one other's hand - except Voldemort is able to flee. Dumbledore sees Tom is incapable of inflicting not only magical but also physical harm on Harry. So how was Harry going to die at Tom's hand?

COS ends with Harry bringing Tom's destroyed Horcrux to Dumbledore. This is very good news for Dumbledore, because it means Tom does not have to attribute his vaporized survival to the Harrycrux. If Tom made his own Horcrux deliberately then he would expect to survive a rebounding AK. And in the terms of the prophecy, can Dumbledore see it as fulfillment of Tom dying at Harry's hand? Then all that was left was to find a way for Harry to die at Tom's hand.

When Harry returns from the graveyard Dumbledore is quick to understand the implication of Voldemort's use of Harry's blood. Terri proposed this was because the ceremony Voldemort used, while likely indeed his own innovation, was based on known principles of Dark Arts. Notice that Voldemort invoked 3 triplets: 3 components (bone, flesh and blood), 3 people (a blood relation, a servant and an enemy) and 3 states of intent (unknowing, willing and forced). I pointed out that now that Harry and Tom share blood the three that faced him were also a blood-relation (Harry) a servant (Severus) and an enemy (Albus). Perhaps Albus noticed the same. In any case, he realized there was a way by which Harry could now 'die' at Tom's hand and survive, and under the right circumstances it could be arranged for Tom to die from a rebounding curse, thus fulfilling the prophecy in its entirety.

In summary, IMO Dumbledore's actions are consistent with the view that he in fact did believe in the prophecy or at least relied on it to gain information about how to bring about Voldemort's end. Of this there was one bit of information he wanted concealed from Voldemort all the way to the end and from Harry almost as long, and that was the fact that Harry had become Voldemort's Horcrux. If Voldemort found that out he would devise a way to keep Harry alive but incapacitated - maybe feed him Draught of the Living Death, so as to keep that Horcrux intact. And this fact might be deduced from the prophecy's wording regarding Harry being marked as Voldemort's *equal*. So perhaps there was a reason to keep the prophecy record from Voldemort, though the method Dumbledore chose also served the goal of buying him time in which Voldemort was sitting quietly while Dumbledore attempted to solve the problem of the multiple Horcruces. Obviously the same reason applies to downplaying the prophecy to Harry - Dumbledore didn't want Harry to reach that same conclusion either.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part A

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

My mind is fuzzy today but I think you're putting waaaay to much effort into trying to make sense of Rowling's flawed and error-riddled series. But I acknowledge that I don't recall the canon nearly as well as you.

(How many times have you read the books? I've got to ask! :-))

from Harry's report of Voldemort's speech Albus finally realized there were more Horcruces besides Harry and the diary

Well, in HBP Dumbledore says it was the cavalier way with which Voldemort treated the diary that led him to this belief. 2 years before the graveyard encounter.

... convince Voldemort he is on the right track in pursuing the prophecy by having Order members risk their lives protecting it

Who was on guard duty the night that Sirius was killed? Or is that a (convenient) plot hole? Did anyone ever ask or tell?

Third, keep Harry away from the prophecy by not mentioning it to him and later by having him learn Occlumency.

Why bother teaching Harry Occlumency if he would never be told about the prophecy?

Pay attention to the following details of their conversation: At first Severus gives the impression Lily is Tom's target.

That's not so; it's simply the case that Snape doesn't care about the male Potters, he only cares about Lily. (Which is evidence that what he feels for her isn't 'true love' IMO, BTW.) That seems clear from the conversation between them.

Before Godric's Hollow he knew Voldemort will at some point attack Harry, mark him somehow

At that stage Albus didn't know any more than Tom as to whom was going to end up being the dark lord's nemesis. It could have been Neville, or anyone else.

So I think Albus knew Harry contained a bit of Tom's soul from day one.

You say this, but where is your evidence? Dumbledore tells Harry that he only knows about the horcruxes from the end of CoS, viz the diary. And the nature of Harry's scar/connection/horcrux doesn't become evident until he starts high school at the earliest.

... And why Harry had to die.

The prophecy didn't state that *both* had to die, just one. So why would Dumbledore assume both? From right at the start?

Harry was placed with the Dursleys and kept with them for 10 years ... because growing under these conditions ... led to Harry trusting Dumbledore and being loyal to Dumbledore over all others, so that when Dumbledore told Harry he had to die in order to bring an end to the threat of Voldemort Harry will do it willingly.

I'm not opposed to that view - I think it's possible, and it's certainly a popular fanon construct - but is there anything in the canon about it? Does Dumbledore or Snape ever say anything along those lines?

So he shows up to the sight of Harry and Quirrellmort literally at one other's hand

Nice! I never noticed that before.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part A

[eri1980b.livejournal.com]

"You say this, but where is your evidence? Dumbledore tells Harry that he only knows about the horcruxes from the end of CoS, viz the diary. And the nature of Harry's scar/connection/horcrux doesn't become evident until he starts high school at the earliest"
I'm not sure if this counts as evidence as such bust I seem to remember in PS/SS the conversation with McGonagall and Dumbledore outside 4PD when she asks about the scar and having it removed and Dumbledore saying something vague about it being useful (then blithering on about a scar looking like a Tube map on his knee) so he wouldn't be removing it in any way, if he could. It suggests to me that Dumbledore knew something but he wasn't telling McGonagall. Also, in the same conversation Dumbledore does seem adamant that Voldemort could return, yet provides no proof to McGonagall of why he thinks this. It does make sense that he would suspect Harry to be a horcrux from here on in, then with the diary discovery he realises there is more than just Harry. That's still two years sitting on his arse doing nothing in my books, when he should have been out looking for horcruxes to make Harry's "job" easier.

And yes, who was on guard duty the night that Sirius got killed!

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part A

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

There's a theory that the guard was Emmeline Vance and that's how she got killed.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part A

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

My essay on the Pensieve gambit posts the suggestion that Albus withdrew the guards after Harry endd up being dragged along for the ride on Nagini just before Christmas.

After that incident there was no way that Tom was not going to start working on Harry, even if Harry knew nothing to the purpose. Also, the great Azkaban Breakout took place right after the kids all boarded the Express back to Hogwarts at the end of the break. The news was in the Prophect the following morning.

Once Tom had Rookwood to tell him how the protections on the Prophecy records worked, he wasn't going to waste time sending in redshirts.If the only people who could touch the thing were himself and the Potter brat, and he had a drect link to the Potter brat, then get the kid to do the dirty work. Albus may not have been 100% accurate but he knew enough to guess that much.

Guards out, Occlumency lessons in.

Pensieve Gambit essay also postulates what the purpose of those lessons were. Albus probably knew perfectly well that the boy wasn't going to learn it from Snape. Snape had another purpose behind his part of that charade.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part A

[oryx_leucoryx]

Well, in HBP Dumbledore says it was the cavalier way with which Voldemort treated the diary that led him to this belief. 2 years before the graveyard encounter.

That's what he said to Harry. But the fact is he only found the ring 3 years later, when he had all the evidence to point in its direction for years. He wasn't looking for another Horcrux because he thought there were only 2 - the diary and Harry. As he says, it was Voldemort's words about going further than anyone else in the path to immortality that really got him moving. But if he didn't say something about suspecting an other Horcrux after the diary Harry (or Hermione) might wonder why Dumbledore still believed Voldemort to be around (before Severus' Mark darkened in GOF) if his only Horcrux was destroyed, so he had to come up with a reason for him to have thought back then that there was at least one other Horcrux. His actions don't support it.

Who was on guard duty the night that Sirius was killed? Or is that a (convenient) plot hole? Did anyone ever ask or tell?

Nobody asked that I know of. I am in 2 minds about this. Either the Order stopped the watch at some point (after Arthur was attacked? after Rookwood told Voldemort only he or Harry could remove the prophecy record from its shelf?) or the guard was taken out by the DEs (or it was Mundungus Fletcher and he suddenly noticed a business opportunity). Order members that were never seen again past this point: Sturgis Podmore (should have been out of Azkaban since March), Arabella Figg (very unlikely, being unable to protect herself magically). There are some fans who think the guard was Emmeline Vance, and her kidnapping by DEs to which Severus claims credit in front of Bellatrix was from the Ministry but I'm not sure it matches the Muggle prime minister's version.

Why bother teaching Harry Occlumency if he would never be told about the prophecy?

To prevent him from *receiving* false messages from Voldemort, like the one that led him to go to the Ministry. Notice Severus' alarm in the Occlumency lesson when he sees the memory of Rookwood speaking to Voldemort. This message was sent to Harry deliberately. It was no leakage, it was a test run for Voldemort's plot. The reason to think so is its timing - Rookwood was broken out of Azkaban in mid-January, Harry had that vision in late February (after Valentine's Day). Also, Voldemort posing in front of the mirror in the vision looks like a deliberate act to catch Harry's attention.

That's not so; it's simply the case that Snape doesn't care about the male Potters, he only cares about Lily. (Which is evidence that what he feels for her isn't 'true love' IMO, BTW.) That seems clear from the conversation between them.

I'm not talking about Severus' thinking but Albus'. Severus says " - he thinks it means Lily Evans!" and Albus retorts "The prophecy did not refer to a woman" He must have been thinking Tom was insane, because there was no way Lily could match the criteria, even if we only consider the first half. Of course Severus knew Lily was 'only' being targeted as the mother of the would-be vanquisher, but that's not what he says, at least at first.

The prophecy didn't state that *both* had to die, just one. So why would Dumbledore assume both? From right at the start?

OK, I'll have to rework that. So if only one had to die, and Voldemort can't die without Harry dying as well then the conditions for the prophecy to come true aren't ready yet. Dumbledore was going to arrange to save Harry until he could dissociate the two deaths. The prophecy gave him hope Harry might survive despite evidence on the ground pointing the other way. Well, that makes Dumbledore look a bit better. Once it would have meant a lot to me.

Does Dumbledore or Snape ever say anything along those lines?

All we have is Dumbledore's need for Harry to forgive him at King's Cross and Severus' outrage at Dumbledore's (apparent) plan for Harry.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part B

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Dumbledore is quick to understand the implication of Voldemort's use of Harry's blood. Terri proposed this was because the ceremony Voldemort used, while likely indeed his own innovation, was based on known principles of Dark Arts. Notice that Voldemort invoked 3 triplets... I pointed out ... he realized there was a way by which Harry could now 'die' at Tom's hand and survive, and under the right circumstances it could be arranged for Tom to die from a rebounding curse, thus fulfilling the prophecy in its entirety.

Oh boy. You've got to do a lot better than that to convince me that any of your conjecture gives any solidity to Dumbledore's "guess" that Harry might survive any battle with Voldemort (or anyone). I don't know why you or Terri came up with any of that - I don't recall seeing anything like that at all in the text. Just Dumbledore's "look of triumph" at the end of GoF, I think, and then fast-forward three books to his 'guess' in Limbo. It stands as another no-way-the-reader-could-have-ever-worked-it-out deus ex machina in my opinion. We're told all along that horcruxes are the only way to be immortal (forget the Stone for the moment) but then lo! Shared magic Lily blood will also do the trick in the nick of time to save our hero, wow, gee, who could have seen that coming? With no 'known principles of Dark Arts' expounded by Rowling in her series - she was *never* that detailed about her magic (and the things she *did* try to be clever about, like the Fidelius, blew up in her face!) - I can't see how any reader could have predicted that. Guessed, maybe.

Still, that was always Rowling's style, from the start; the books were never written as 'mysteries' which the reader had a chance of solving. We always needed that penultimate chapter with Dumbledore telling us how it all worked. (And, with the last 2-3 books, Rowling telling us how brilliant/wonderful she was in the follow-up interviews. :-()

In summary, IMO Dumbledore's actions are consistent with the view that he in fact did believe in the prophecy ...

I'm not sure what your position actually is. I think that Dumbledore fully believed in the prophecy - in book 5 - but then his author turned things around, not knowing how to handle it any further, and had him emasculate it totally in book 6, going back on his book 5 position. Which I see as an error of the series. And then the prophecy is mentioned in passing a couple of times in book 7, Rowlling hoping that it would 'stick' and the readers would go wow, gee, there *was* a prophecy, it was somehow connected, this stuff is HEAVY!! -- without realising how inconsistently it had been used, how it never had really come into play once book 5 was done with it.

We're in agreement that Dumbledore believed in the prophecy up to the end of OotP, and since nothing really happened with the prophecy after that point I guess we're in rough agreement (although I disagree with some of your points, as per the above). But if Dumbledore *did* believe in the prophecy - as more than just a bit of bait for a gullible dark lord - why tell Harry what he said in HBP? And if Dumbledore was consistent in his view that prophecies mean nothing, have no importance other than what we ourselves might atttribute to them, why not say that at the end of book 5? Rather than let Harry wallow in dark despair for months that he was fated to be 'murderer or murdered', etc?

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part B

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

One of my main questions about the prophecy is why Dumbledore put it in the MoM to begin with. He and Snape were the only ones who heard it and it seems like completely against his nature to for some reason file it away officially--especially when that only leads to having to guard it and people getting hurt or killed...followed by it not really being important.

Or to rephrase--it is important, very important, but only in the past. It's important because it gets Voldemort to target Harry, which makes Snape realize he's gotten Lily killed, and that gets him to go to Dumbledore. For the Snape story it's important, but not as a prophecy of how Voldemort will be defeated. It's important because it forsees Lily being targetted.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part B

[oryx_leucoryx]

We don't know if Dumbledore put it in the DOM, or 'real' prophecy records are created automatically. If Dumbledore put it there we don't know when he did so. Immediately after he heard it? After Severus' turning? After Godric's Hollow? When he realized the signs are pointing to a return of Voldemort (ie anytime after Trelawney's second prophecy and Peter's escape and before the night of the Third Task)? After Voldemort's return?

If prophecies get recorded automatically then both Dumbledore and Voldemort knew, through their respective Ministry ties, that on that particular night a 'true' prophecy was made.

If Dumbledore himself put it there we might know more about his intention if we knew when he did so. Did he put it there in order to lead Voldemort to act on the prophecy? Did he put it there so Harry would have the record in case Dumbledore died before Harry turned an appropriate age (did an earlier version of Dumbledore's will include instructions about telling Harry to go and listen to the prophecy when he came of age?) Or was it placed there entirely as bait for Voldemort?

When the prophecy records are described it says "Some of them had a weird, liquid glow; others were as dull and dark within as blown lightbulbs." Harry's prophecy was among the glowing ones. (Could it have been otherwise?) Is there significance to this difference? Do prophecies glow until they come to pass?

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part B

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

It seems a bit too much and too efficient for prophecies to just spring into being with a label when they're made--if there was any system like that in place I don't think it could work better than the trace on underaged magic or animagi. Do all of Trelawney's pop up there even if she doesn't know what they say? It just seems far too unweildly and out of character for the rest of the Ministry. If Dumbledore wanted Harry to listen to it later I'd imagine he'd leave it to him in his own way rather than putting it in the Ministry. Voldemort didn't act on it because it was in the Ministry but because Snape told him about it--a far more reliable source. And if it was there for bait why didn't they have any sort of clever plan that involved using it as bait? As it was it was Voldemort who used bait in the scene.

To me it reads just like a handy place to have the prophecy so we should just assume that it's there because Dumbledore decided to follow procedure that time even though he's got a history of not doing that. I think it's there mostly because it helps the plot, explained through the kind of beaurocracy joke we always get with the ministry.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part B

[oryx_leucoryx]

We know the labeling is done by the 'keeper of the Hall of Prophecy'. The question is where do the images and soundtracks come from.

If Dumbledore wanted Harry to listen to it later I'd imagine he'd leave it to him in his own way rather than putting it in the Ministry.

Good point. So placing it in the Ministry (if done by Dumbledore) was entirely for Tom's sake.

And if it was there for bait why didn't they have any sort of clever plan that involved using it as bait? As it was it was Voldemort who used bait in the scene.

The plan relied on Voldemort not daring to show up at the Ministry himself. The plan was to have him believe there was information he was not aware of (which was actually true) to keep him lying low. Buying time for the Horcrux hunt.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part B

[jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com]

Iirc, Albus mentioned in passing that after Godric's Hollow the Prophecy record was relabled and now had Harry's name on it. I think it was during the debriefing in OotP when he told us that Neville was an also-ran.

Well, hey, if Albus was deploying it as bait in '80 *as well as* during OotP, of course he would have done the good citizen thing and gone down to the DoM to file a report that he'd been the witness of a Prophecy. Consequently, if Tom sent one of his moles to double-check on Snape's story, then yup, sure enough, there's a prophecy that has something to do with the Dark Lord there in the record archive.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part B

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Iirc, Albus mentioned in passing that after Godric's Hollow the Prophecy record was relabled and now had Harry's name on it. I think it was during the debriefing in OotP when he told us that Neville was an also-ran.

Yup. Which suggests another way Voldemort might have gotten the prophecy, if he'd been a more creative thinker.

Lucius says, in the DoM, "the only people who are permitted to retrieve a prophecy from the Department of Mysteries, Potter, are those about whom it was made." But does the magic of the shelves really interact with the prophecy itself? Or just the labeling? Considering how vague prophecies are, it'd be pretty risky to have people hurt for thinking a prophecy was about them, and being wrong. (Not that the WW would never have a pointlessly risky policy, but you know.)

And prophecies can be relabeled, if only by one person.

Chances are, if you get at that one person who can relabel the prophecies, then anyone can be the one to take a prophecy off its shelf. And the keeper of the Hall of Prophecy would probably get easier to get at than Harry Potter -- or at least quicker.

It'd at least be worth a try, considering that Voldemort could use imperiused people to take the risks, and that he could've pursued his strategy of luring Harry to the DoM at the same time.

Re: Albus and the Prophecy, part 4 - part B

[oryx_leucoryx]

I don't know why you or Terri came up with any of that - I don't recall seeing anything like that at all in the text.

It was a point that came up in a discussion about what the Dark Arts in the Potterverse were and why there is so much confusion and inconsistency about this definition. So no need to get into this side discussion now. We have Dumbledore's gleam of something like triumph when he hears about the ceremony. Perhaps the first thing that mattered was that the stalemate of the Quirrellmort/Harry encounter can be broken, and only later Dumbledore arrived at his other conclusions.

I'm not sure what your position actually is.

My position is that Dumbledore believed in the prophecy all along. Just like Voldemort - each was basing his plans on it, whether by trying to avert it or by trying to make it come true in a way most favorable to himself. And IMO Dumbledore was still doing it in HBP.

But if Dumbledore *did* believe in the prophecy - as more than just a bit of bait for a gullible dark lord - why tell Harry what he said in HBP?

Because there was one important fact Dumbledore wasn't sharing with Harry and which might be gleaned from the prophecy: that Harry was Tom's Horcrux. Fortunately for Dumbledore, Harry never repeated the actual wording of the prophecy to Hermione and Ron. If Hermione had given the wording half as much thought as she gave the identity of the Half-Blood Prince she would have realized there might be something fishy about Harry being Voldemort's *equal*. In what way are they equal? So when the story of the Horcruces comes up she might connect the dots and figure out that they are equal in that they both have Tom's soul. After all, in OOTP Dumbledore still believed he will be there to hunt down Horcruces and all the way to the last shoot-out. In HBP he knew this was highly unlikely. So he played down the prophecy as a bluff at Harry, to distract him from paying close attention to the words.

And if Dumbledore was consistent in his view that prophecies mean nothing, have no importance other than what we ourselves might atttribute to them, why not say that at the end of book 5?

This is not true in the general case, as Trelawney's other prophecy proved. Nobody would have done anything different the night of Peter's escape had they known of that prophecy - as Fudge said earlier in the book, it was accepted commonly that all Voldemort needed to return was one loyal servant. Those who thought Sirius was the servant were trying to stop him, once it was revealed that it was Peter those who knew that were trying to stop him. Well, maybe Harry would have allowed Remus and Sirius to kill Peter? (would he have been willing to risk losing Sirius again, as well as Remus, if it meant delaying Voldemort's return? and would Hermione have let him go ahead?)

As to the first prophecy - Dumbledore isn't entirely honest when he says it was *only* Voldemort's belief in the prophecy that started the chain of events leading to Godric's Hollow. His own belief in the prophecy had much to do with the events, and it is possible that even without Severus' presence at the Hog's Head Voldemort would have eventually gone after Harry or Neville - because he would have noticed Dumbledore paying extra attention to those two families.