PoA Chapter Eighteen

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I've been packing all day and totally forgot to post this like I planned until now!



Based on the title of this chapter, more interesting things to follow!

Sirius leaps on Ron’s broken leg. Sucks to be Ron. He doesn't even suffer in a woobie, sexy way.

Sirius says they can explain what's going on afterward he kills Peter. Apparently he hasn’t learned anything from Azkaban. Try explaining first just once, Sirius. You might like it.

Ron’s now been bitten a lot by Scabbers btw. Ron’s pretty tough to be able to still hold on to him. Rat bites are nasty.

It is kind of ironic that it’s Lupin telling Sirius to explain everything from the beginning. Almost as if he’s trying to stretch this out until the moon rises!

LOL! Ron actually tries to say “I’m off” and hobble out on his broken leg. Possibly the funniest thing Ron’s ever done. Yeah, we’ll meet you back at school, Ron.

Ron and Harry’s eyes meet. They both believe Sirius and Lupin are out of their minds because the story makes no sense. Um, yes it does make sense. You just saw that Sirius was the black dog here, you guys. Hermione really is the thinking brain dog, isn’t she?

There’s only been seven animagi in the entire century. It’s kind of cute that at this age it doesn’t occur to Hermione that that’s because nobody actually registers.

That door opening? Totally Snape entering the room. Severus Snape: Super Spy.

Despite the fact that Wizards grow up in a world where all sorts of magical things happen, they never seem any more prepared than a Muggle would be to deal with this stuff if somebody doesn’t walk them through it beforehand: But Scabbers can’t be a man, he’s a rat! Or: Oh, the door opened by itself as if someone was walking in? Couldn’t possibly be someone walking in. We didn’t see them!

Lupin says that “in those days” (when he was bitten) there was no cure. There’s no cure now either, Lupin, as far as we know. The Potion isn’t a cure.

Harry can see where this story is going. Well done, Harry! (Though I don't think Harry ever tells us where he thinks it's going. Knowing Harry maybe this is all leading up to Julie Christie, and not Petunia Dursley, being Harry's aunt.)

Lupin’s friends couldn’t help but notice he disappeared once a month. Too bad you didn’t have Harry for a friend, Remus. He could have easily not noticed. Or at least not deduce anything from it if he did. How are you and Ron doing on that “Hermione’s regularly three places at once” mystery you’ve been solving since September, Harry?

Lupin reminisces about how his friends let a werewolf wander around loose in a town, trusting that they’d be able to keep him in control. Next you can all share stories about those carefree nights drunk driving on the highway and the laughs you had when you’d almost hit someone. Hermione agrees with me, at least.

Lupin feels a little guilty about betraying Dumbledore’s trust. Don’t worry, Lupin. Once Dumbledore finds out he’ll make you pay for it. You didn’t really think all that spying on the werewolves was for nothing, did you? Or that Sirius really needed to live in the one house he hated more than anything?

Lupin explains he didn’t tell Dumbledore Sirius was an animagus because he was too cowardly. Though really he could have told him without his disapproval. He could tell him Sirius had become an animagus without telling him why. I just can’t help but cheer anyone on for keeping a secret from Dumbledore for any reason.

Lupin cleverly says that Snape’s been right about him all along in the exact company that will assure him that Snape is never right about anything.

Lupin makes the first reference to the trick Sirius pulled on Snape, which Sirius still says served Snape right. I miss this version of the Prank.

Wow. Speaking of versions of stories, Lupin throws in without having to that Snape didn’t like James because he was, I don’t know, jealous of how good he was at Quidditch. Does he just automatically cut Snape down and cover for James and Sirius here without thinking about it even though it’s not necessary for the story? Because there’s just no way Lupin could actually believe that.

Lupin continues to impress me with how smoothly he polishes up the story dishonestly on the fly. (Seriously, I love Lupin.) Not only did he take time to suggest Snape hated James over Quidditch but he adds that James pulled Snape back from the tunnel at “great risk to his own life.” Except James is an animagus, as we’ve already learned, and werewolves are only dangerous to people. James regularly went down the tunnel to see Lupin for fun. The only danger James was in was being outed as an animagus by Snape. But he sure sounds more heroic in this version of the story.

And this is where Snape reveals himself, and given what he’s just heard man he must be pissed.

Seriously, I know he won’t listen to reason here but he really did just hear Lupin give a completely self-serving speech about him and his buddies. Imagine Harry listening to a conversation where Draco talked about his time at school with Harry this way. He'd be even more angry than Snape for less reason.

Things that happen twice:

Peter’s an animagus, just like Black and McGonagall. Perhaps after a THIRD example Ron and Harry will catch on that sometimes animals turn out to actually be people.
Speaking of unregistered animagi: Rita Skeeter.
‘Member how Harry went to the Shrieking Shack in his invisibility cloak? Now Snape’s come to the Shack in Harry's invisibility cloak.
In fact, three books from now it’ll be Harry slipping in a door in his invisibility cloak, only Draco will actually notice. Draco, the only character besides Hermione known to ever deduce things or make a cunning plan—even if it’s usually with disastrous results.
I was half-joking when writing about Lupin’s life among the werewolves in HBP as Dumbledore’s punishment for betraying his trust but it actually makes total sense and is in fitting with Dumbledore’s character. Plus it’s a nicely eerie parallel for Voldemort amusing himself by giving Draco an assignment to make him suffer and fail in HBP!
Lupin didn’t tell Dumbledore Sirius was an animagus because he’s a coward. Because he’s a coward. Because he’s a coward. That'll come up a lot.
Lupin’s “Snape’s been right about me all along” is about as disingenuous as his later “Snape’s right to have me fired” will be shortly.
Lupin’s behavior really does make him seem like exactly the guy Snape thinks he is here, just as it did in the Marauders Map chapter.

It’s a gun. No it isn’t! It’s Chekov! No it isn’t!

The Prank
Well, this one’s obvious, isn’t it? The series can’t end until we get the real story…

Status: Um...fired, but it turns out it was not so much a real gun as an empty water pistol that Snape shot at his own pants to make an embarrassing stain.





Exploitation Filmmakers’ Credo
Animagus. It’s not that difficult a concept. Even when you heard the guy had died.

Foley Work
Come on, you know the door had to creak really loudly when Snape walked in, even if his footsteps were somehow muffled.

Informed Attributes
Lupin’s just spitting these out right and left without Harry questioning any of them.

James Bond Exposition Rule
That’s it, Remus, keep talking. Just a little longer before the moon’s up. Don’t leave out the part about Quidditch. Quidditch is really important to the story.

Misdirected Answering
The chapter’s over and we still haven’t gotten anywhere near how Peter’s alive and Sirius didn’t kill him or why Sirius suddenly isn’t a bad guy anymore.

The Stealth Monster Rule
See Work, Foley. Snape must be using some version of Muffliato as he comes up those stairs!

Jabootu Score: 6

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I used 'lust' too flippantly, you're right. A 'crush' turning into a strong desire to possess/have Lily, that's what it was. It's my assumption, I guess, that Snape found Lily sexually attractive and that 'lust' was mixed in along the way. As you point out, there was no sign of teenage sexual attraction ... not the slightest hint of a Rowling chest monster anywhere! :-)

(But Snape was clearly jealous of James, don't you think? And jealousy was practically the only emotion that Rowling used to signify the depth of her primary teenage romances. Chest monster jealous of Dean, Ginny jealous of anything female, Ron and Hermione using other people to make each other jealous and so forth. It seems to be the only way that Rowling knew to portray the romance, and what makes her beloved OBHWF pairings so desperately sad and loathesome. So maybe Snape did find Lily sexually attractive. It's an easy assumption to make.)

But it wasn't true love. If you love someone you want the best for them, you want them to be happy, even if it might go against your own desires, even if it kills you. If Snape had truly loved Lily then he would have wanted to rescue ALL of the Potters; not only her but also those whom she loved the most, her husband and baby boy.

But no, Snape was concerned only about the object of his own desire, without thinking at all about what *she* wanted. Not until Dumbledore prompts him - "you sicken me", was it? - and Snape says okay, save them all then (not that I care about the male Potters).

So it wasn't love. It started out nice, with Snape and Lily as kids - as a H/Hr man I applaud the trope of best friends going on to discover that it can get even better - but, sadly for Snape, it didn't end up that way.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Here's (most of) the conversation:

“Well, Severus? What message does Lord Voldemort have for me?”

“No – no message – I’m here on my own account!”

Snape was wringing his hands. He looked a little mad, with his straggling black hair flying around him.

“I – I come with a warning – no, a request – please – ”

Dumbledore flicked his wand. Though leaves and branches still flew through the night air around them, silence fell on the spot where he and Snape faced each other.

“What request could a Death Eater make of me?”

“The – the prophecy…the prediction…Trelawney…”

“Ah, yes,” said Dumbledore. “How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?”

“Everything – everything I heard!” said Snape. “That is why – it is for that reason – he thinks it means Lily Evans!”

“The prophecy did not refer to a woman,” said Dumbledore. “It spoke of a boy born at the end of July – ”

“You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down – kill them all – ”

“If she means so much to you,” said Dumbledore, “surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?”

“I have – I have asked him – ”

“You disgust me,” said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. Snape seemed to shrink a little, “You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?”

Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.

“Hide them all, then,” he croaked. “Keep her – them – safe. Please.”


My thoughts:

The spin that Dumbledore puts on that conversation, during the conversation itself, is unreal.

I mean, could Severus have possibly thought that Dumbledore would protect Lily but *not* James and Harry? Why on earth would Dumbledore do that? If Dumbledore was going to act to protect them, he'd protect all of them, surely. Or if Dumbledore would only protect one, surely it'd be Harry, the one in the prophecy, not either of his parents. In any case, Dumbledore would have no reason to protect Lily and only Lily.

Severus was primarily concerned with Lily; that's why he acted. But Severus' "hide them all" is hardly a *concession* on his part. That's what he must have expected Dumbledore to do from the beginning! When he "merely looked up at Dumbledore," he was probably thinking that Dumbledore was crazy, 1) for suggesting that Severus could have gotten Voldemort to spare the child in the prophecy, and 2) for ignoring the fact that Severus was, at that moment, doing something to save all three people.

Of course, Dumbledore also seemed to think he's entitled to charge Severus a price for protecting his (Dumbledore's) own people:

“And what will you give me in return, Severus?”

“In – in return?” Snape gaped at Dumbledore, and Harry expected him to protest, but after a long moment he said, “Anything.”

Yes, I'm fairly sure that Severus considered Dumbledore a lunatic at that point.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I agree that Snape's thoughts and motivation aren't crystal clear because of Dumbledore's pushing Snape and interrupting, but still (a) Snape says "I have" when Dumbledore suggests "haven't you asked for mercy for JUST LILY?"; not "Oh no, I wanted to save them all!"; and (b) that "Hide them all, then" is rather condemning. Especially with that 'then' tacked on. It seems rather clear that Snape didn't care less about the male Potters ... and that means he didn't have Lily's own desires and needs in mind. And that means he didn't truly 'love' her, IMO.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

(a) Snape says "I have" when Dumbledore suggests "haven't you asked for mercy for JUST LILY?"; not "Oh no, I wanted to save them all!"

Er, but the person being asked in that case is Voldemort. The guy who's specifically targeting *Harry*. If Severus asked Voldemort to spare Harry, it wouldn't've made him less likely to attack Harry. Or would you say that Severus was morally obligated to ask even though there was no chance?

...Or do you mean that Severus should've asked Voldemort to spare both Lily and *James*, since Voldemort had no specific purpose in killing James?

More to the point, though, it isn't as if Severus stopped after asking Voldemort to spare Lily. He did what he could with Voldemort to protect Lily, then turned to someone else, namely Dumbledore, to get him doing what he could.

Dumbledore specifically framed that question as a lose-lose situation for Severus, to make him feel guilty enough to promise "Anything" later.


(b) that "Hide them all, then" is rather condemning. Especially with that 'then' tacked on. It seems rather clear that Snape didn't care less about the male Potters

I'm not sure I can add to what I've already said. Severus had to have expected Dumbledore to hide all three from the very beginning, so the "hide them all" strikes me as a "I'm humoring a lunatic... (again...)" line. Not that JKR intended it that way, but she isn't a very good writer. :P Could Severus possibly have thought that Dumbledore would hide one but not all of them on Severus' say so? If not, why would he need to specify "please protect the whole family"?

I doubt that Severus did care in the slightest about James; he hated him. But Severus didn't prioritize getting back at James over protecting Lily. He *could* have, if he'd only asked Voldemort to spare Lily, and hadn't gone to Dumbledore.

and that means he didn't have Lily's own desires and needs in mind. And that means he didn't truly 'love' her, IMO.

Well, he protected Harry for seven years, for Lily's sake, despite hating him. That sounds to me like having her wishes in mind.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Or do you mean that Severus should've asked Voldemort to spare both Lily and *James*, since Voldemort had no specific purpose in killing James?

That, yes. I do understand why Snape couldn't beg for Harry's life, under the circumstances.

Severus had to have expected Dumbledore to hide all three from the very beginning, so the "hide them all" strikes me as a "I'm humoring a lunatic... (again...)" line.

Logically, I see your reasoning. But emotionally that "save them all, then" utterance seems pretty damning to me. I do feel that Snape had begged Voldemort for Lily - just Lily - and then went straight to Dumbledore with that same target/focus in mind. You want to save ALL the Potters? Oh, very well then.

I wonder if Snape's calling Lily by her maiden name - Lily EVANS - means anything? Further evidence that he didn't care one iota about the male POTTERS?

Well, he protected Harry for seven years, for Lily's sake, despite hating him. That sounds to me like having her wishes in mind.

After he couldn't acquire the woman herself, and felt that he had to atone for being instrumental in her death, yes.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

That, yes. I do understand why Snape couldn't beg for Harry's life, under the circumstances.

(nod) Still, I can imagine some people saying that he needed to ask for Harry's life even if it wouldn't be effective, although that isn't my perspective.

Unfortunately, looking at it practically, asking for James' life would more likely to undermine his efforts to protect Lily than to help James. The DE's were a violent group. If Severus wasn't okay with someone *else* in the group killing someone that he'd been enemies with throughout their school years... that indicates a pretty serious disaffection with the DE's in general.

Voldemort wouldn't've responded positively to that. It would probably have placed Severus in danger without helping James any, and it would have made Voldemort less likely to grant Severus the favor of sparing Lily.


Logically, I see your reasoning. But emotionally that "save them all, then" utterance seems pretty damning to me.

(shrug) Well, Dumbledore set up the conversation to have that effect (on Severus). He certainly didn't approach the subject from a neutral starting point.


I wonder if Snape's calling Lily by her maiden name - Lily EVANS - means anything?

I'm bad with timelines, but she hadn't been married for all that long at that point, had she? A year or two? Severus knew her as Lily *Evans* for... probably around eight years. And people get called by their last names a lot at Hogwarts, too.


Further evidence that he didn't care one iota about the male POTTERS?

I think some things are getting blurred. He certainly didn't care about James and Harry as much as he cared about Lily, but loving someone doesn't automatically mean caring just as much about their loved ones. At best, one would want Severus to care about keeping James alive for Lily's sake, but not because Severus cared about James personally.

Since Voldemort couldn't be trusted to spare Lily, we don't really know what Severus was thinking. Severus doesn't appear to have thought that Voldemort could be relied on, so he certainly didn't go to Dumbledore *just* to save James and Harry.

However, we do at least know that Severus felt more affection for Lily than he felt hatred for James. And considering that Severus believed that James was involved in setting up the "Prank" which nearly got Severus killed, among numerous other incidents, surely that's saying something.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

I should clarify, that last point says more about Severus' personality generally, that hate doesn't drive him as much as love does.

To be honest, I don't find Lily an interesting enough character to care very much about how much Severus loved her. I think he did love her, but... (shrug) It's just another subplot that could've been done well, and wasn't.

But I find it particularly... sad? revealing? that JKR seemed to use Severus' love/affection as another way to criticize him. Love's supposed to be this great power in these books, and Severus' love for Lily makes a huge difference in the way events play out. Harry would've died as a baby if Severus hadn't cared for Lily at all. But JKR uses it as much to make him look bad, as you've argued for, as to explain his being one of the good guys.

From the Doylist perspective, I'd say that the hilltop meeting could have been Severus' finest moment, but JKR didn't want him to have a finest moment, so we get this weird scene best explained by Dumbledore either just generally wanting to be self-righteous, or deliberately trying to manipulate Severus' emotions to get him to be an ongoing spy.

Getting off topic a bit, I would mind the manipulation less, story-wise, if there were some kind of acknowledgment of it, however subtle. Even if it were just someone acknowledged to be ruthless, like Moody, that was interacting with Severus here, I could appreciate the scene. But I think that JKR sees Dumbledore as being *genuinely* righteous, and that doesn't work for me at all.

[montavilla.livejournal.com]

You really hit it on the head for me, Lynn.

I remember that shortly before DH came out, my SQ nemesis, Madam V. Hunter imagined the scene pretty closely to how it came out in the book--she may have even had Dumbledore saying, "You're disgusting." It was something very similar to that.

I, of course, refuted that idea, as I couldn't imagine Dumbledore taking that tone when he's recruiting Snape to the "good" side. Also, I had bought that idea of Dumbledore as forgiving--willing to give people second chances. Heh. Should have realized that it was just another lie Snape was feeding to Bellatrix.

I mean, I was imagining Snape's return as a full-on Prodigal Son moment. Tears. Beating of the breast. Dumbledore's frail arms encircling the penitent and gently patting his shaking back.

Feel free to laugh at me for that.

Turns out that Dumbledore really isn't much into second chances after all. Yes, he'll persuade Dippet to take Hagrid on as a servant when he's certain that the real culprit is Tom Riddle (he just can't prove it). But, there was always that weird bit about never even talking to Sirius that we couldn't make fit with Dumbledore as the loving epitome of goodness. The only other person given a second chance was Snape, and we see how that went.

No, Dumbledore wasn't so much about seeing the best in people. He was really more about seeing the worst in everyone--and realizing that everyone was bad enough that it hardly mattered who he recruited into his team, as long as he could control them. That included Mundungus, who was only reined in when his actions interfered with Project Lamb to the Slaughter.

I honestly thought that JKR must have written that hill top scene to please the same fans who would hoot and clap when Dumbledore knocked the Durlseys about on their heads with hard glass objects. It was all about payback for making Harry feel bad--even though, chronologically, it was ten years too early in Snape's case, and fifteen years too late in the Dursleys'.

[oryx_leucoryx]

That, yes. I do understand why Snape couldn't beg for Harry's life, under the circumstances.

Ack! And I had all these versions of what Severus could have possibly said to Voldemort to get him to leave the entire family alone, just to see if you or anyone else would believe any had a chance of success!

"Prophecies Master? Surely you don't believe in them? They are so old-fashioned!"

"I checked with the Department of Mysteries and was told nobody ever heard of that Trelawney woman before. I'm telling you Master, she is a total fraud, she just made the whole thing up!"

"Killing a baby? Where's the style in that? At least let him grow up so you can face him in a fair fight and show him and everyone else who really is the boss!"

"But what has the baby done to you? Can't you at least wait and see if he indeed ends up opposing you?"

"How do you know the baby is the right one? At least let him grow up and see if he has any chance of being a threat to you."

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

The first two don't work because Severus was the one who delivered the prophecy to Voldie. Meaning he clearly ascribed some significance to it at the time. Switching gears so suddenly would be...suspicious in Voldie's eyes.

The other three...well, what sort of believable motivation is Severus supposed to have presented Voldie with in order to make such requests? Why on earth would Severus (in Voldie's eyes) care so much about a baby and/or his mortal enemy, and how would that not make Voldie suspicious? The guy is paranoid. One of his supposedly loyal DE's trying to talk him out of the clearly strategic thing to do from a Dark Lord's pov (eliminate a potential threat before it can become an actual threat) is going to get his mind working is ways Severus would not like.

I can buy him asking for Lily and getting away with it, because 1) hostage potential to keep Severus in line, 2) he could have presented it as a desire to be revenged upon Lily and/or James, something Voldie would have understood, and 3) she's not the real threat (indeed, Voldie attempted to recruit her, perhaps he saw value in having her under his control). I can't buy him asking for James or Harry and not ringing alarm bells in Voldie's mind, and he would have known this.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

"Killing a baby? Where's the style in that? At least let him grow up so you can face him in a fair fight and show him and everyone else who really is the boss!"

Okay, 'fess up, you got that one straight out of the Evil Overlord's Handbook, didn't you? The one used by Dr. Evil of the Austin Powers series? And all the James Bond masterminds? :-)

"But what has the baby done to you? Can't you at least wait and see if he indeed ends up opposing you?"

"How do you know the baby is the right one? At least let him grow up and see if he has any chance of being a threat to you."

And those two as well! :-)

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

It seems rather clear that Snape didn't care less about the male Potters ... and that means he didn't have Lily's own desires and needs in mind. And that means he didn't truly 'love' her, IMO.

This scratches me the wrong way. This sort of thought must be consciously taught. It doesn't come naturally. From what we've seen of Snape's upbringing, he probably never heard the concept. He certainly didn't hear of it in Rowling's universe where jealousy, as you've mentioned above, is the hallmark of affection. Jealousy is selfish. So are chest monsters and petty irrational hatred of all and sundry potential objects of affection, like an eleven year old girl (Ginny > Gabrielle).

I'd also suggest that teen-agers don't look at things this way unless prompted. They love, they ache over that love, they dislike the reason for their ache, in this case, Snape would dislike James merely because Lily preferred him to Snape even if James did nothing else to earn Snape's dislike. At the time of the Potters' targeting and deaths they're all still very young and this sort of altruism would still need to be prompted, especially in a world where people don't grow beyond their teen-aged years.

The only character we see being prompted to show this sort of grand gesture is Snape. Harry's almost lauded for invisibly shoving against the happy couple of Ginny and Dean, causing an argument that contributes to their break-up and, Ron and Hermione's bickering and jealous rages, such as siccing canaries on the object of affection, are indicative of them being meant for each other.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. While I'd like to think that even teenaged 'real love' is selfless, you've got me thinking with your last paragraph, reminding me that we're looking at characters operating in Rowling's world, not my (starry-eyed) version. A world where, indeed, ugly jealousy is equated to 'love' and is almost the sole indicator of same. Where H/G and R/Hr are held up to be ideal. Hmmm. Good point!

Still, Snape was in his early 20s, so maybe he can't be held back to Rowling's poor standards of teenage romance; maybe my version holds weight after all. Hmmm.

That aside, why did Snape join the Death Eaters in the first place if one of their main policies was to oppress or eliminate people like Lily Evans? Doesn't that show that Snape didn't truly love Lily?

[oryx_leucoryx]

That aside, why did Snape join the Death Eaters in the first place if one of their main policies was to oppress or eliminate people like Lily Evans? Doesn't that show that Snape didn't truly love Lily?

The DEs weren't openly eliminating people like Lily at the time Severus joined. Not if we trust Regulus to be as well informed as an outsider could have been at the time. And we see that Tom knew how to spin his recruitment speech to fit the individual - he spoke to Barty about their shared hatred of their respective fathers, he tried to recruit Harry at the end of PS in the name of his parents' sacrifice. So who knows what Severus believed he was joining and for what goals? For all we know Voldemort told him that they both were victims of the pureblood establishment and that half-bloods with brains and magical talent deserved more than the Ministry could offer - and Severus by extension believed Lily as a smart and talented Muggleborn will have a fine place in the New World Order if Voldemort won.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Especially given that we know Voldemort attempted to RECRUIT Lily to the DEs. It counted as one of the defiances, so it wasn't just some random follower going out on a limb.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Can you remind me as to where this is mentioned in the canon?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I think you're trying too hard to push the canon your preferred way again.

Voldemort's policies always embodied an anti-mudblood sentiment from the very start as far as I remember. Yes, he had charisma, he could bend the propaganda to suit individuals maybe, but the heart of the movement was invariant throughout, as far as I know; every time it's addressed in the books I do think the link was always there to blood purity.

I know I sound like a broken record, citing my poor recall of the canon, but what exactly was the reason that Regulus broke ranks? The discovery that Riddle was a half-blood? Or is that fanon? Anyway, I need more canon facts about Regulus to be convinced on that score.

Agreed, maybe Riddle wasn't espousing genocide/homicide in the beginning, but certainly his intent was to demean people like Lily Evans, to demote her, to put her in her place, to subjugate her.

And Snape signed up with that. That naughty, evil Snape. The more I think about it the more I can't reconcile that anti-Lily action with his supposedly spending 20 years suffering in her memory. Pffff.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I believe that Regulus became anti-Voldemort simply for what he did to Kreacher. Iow, he followed the usual Slytherin path: signed up happily for the Pureblood prejudice, but had a redeeming feature in his ability to love somebody else. Voldemort lost favor with Slytherins because he targetted their loved ones.

I thought when people talked about the interview canon they were specifically meaning the odd notion JKR suggested that Snape thought Lily would be impressed by his becoming a DE. In his mind I guess they were just the important people and he figured it wouldn't matter that they were specifically against Muggleborns, especially if Snape could get special treatment for her. It sounds odd, like I said, but I wouldn't be surprised if that sort of thing had happened IRL. It's just that JKR never really explained it in her canon, especially given the way the friendship ends because of Snape using the word Mudblood for Lily.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Voldemort's policies always embodied an anti-mudblood sentiment from the very start as far as I remember.

Well, the entire wizarding world is anti Muggle and anti-Muggleborn to varying degrees. There are very few Muggleborns in any position and the only Muggleborn with a known career in the adult generations is Dirk Cresswell (who had Slughorn's support). Young Tom implies that lacking a known wizarding ancestry would hamper his advancement in politics. Nobody seriously stood up to the 'magic theft' propaganda. And in the Black Family Tree marriage to a Potter, a Longbottom or a Prewett was legitimate, only the Weasleys were out. So I am inclined to think that at least up to the generation of the Marauders' parents the majority of wizards from all Houses were against full inclusion of Muggle-borns. Even those who didn't mind that some people married them didn't want to hire them or do business with them or have them in positions of authority. (Also notice that there were no Muggle-borns on the Hogwarts staff - they stayed under Voldemort's regime.)

And we know from Regulus that as far as he knew as late as 1977-8 the DEs were not known to be into killing Muggle-borns or Muggles. So the difference between the DEs as they were thought of by supportive outsiders and mainstream wizards was just one of degree.

(As for attitudes to Muggles - see Arthur casually Obliviating Muggles, Ron hexing the driving instructor and Hermione taking over her parents' lives for them.)

Regulus was happy with Voldemort until Kreacher's return from the cave. But then he was still 17, probably still a student. I doubt he had much experience in 'active duty' at all. I'm guessing he was proud to offer Kreacher because he was finally useful to his Master's cause. Then he became concerned, was no longer himself. Either because he realized his Master tried to kill Kreacher or because he learned that his Master had made himself immortal by means of a Horcrux. Or a combination of both.

[the-bitter-word.livejournal.com]

How many people do you know who love selflessly and for the good of everyone, even beyond the age of 20? You might be happy to see your ex-love interest with someone else, you might wish them the best, but in Rowling's world, that just shows you never really, truly loved them. In this specific case, Severus never stopped loving Lily, and his love was selfless enough for him at 20 to risk asking Voldemort that she be spared, then turning slave for Dumbledore to further assure her safety. I don't see selfishness in that. So what if he didn't specifically ask about James?

Severus hated James most of his life, probably from the moment they first encountered each other. James was arrogant, acting as if rules didn't apply to him. James bullied Severus and other students at school. He went around with a swelled head, showing off his athletic prowess. Even Lily seemed to loathe James, until the bitter pill, to Severus, of them getting together and getting married. In some way, Severus must have made his peace with that in order to go on. At the same time, I doubt Severus thought James had ever changed. As far as we know, he never did change! So how was Severus suddenly going to ask Voldemort to spare the life of James Potter, a reckless jerk who made his life hell and took the woman he loved, or Harry Potter, the person who is the whole point of the Prophecy?

I don't get why people suddenly want 20-year-old Severus, and only Severus, to be a Bodhisattva. The hilltop scene looks to me like a set-up by Dumbledore, who defines the terms of morality in the moment, yet he's making a statement not so much for readers, but to manipulate Severus. As others pointed out, there is no room for discussion, only judgment from above, only Severus' desperation to have Lily saved and Dumbledore's cold-blooded disgust and imposition of conditions. Of course it should go without saying that Dumbledore would save all the Potters, if he could. Yet he makes Severus hate himself more and swear allegiance to the better-knowing Headmaster. I'm not saying that Severus wasn't responsible, but he was made to feel like dirt even though he owned up to his responsibility and tried to make amends. Dumbledore didn't own up to his. He let Severus go after hearing the Prophecy, knowing he would probably tell it to Voldemort, in fact, probably counting on it. Why isn't Dumbledore disgusted with himself? He only allows himself to care about one person, after all, and the rest can put their lives at risk and be merely symbols for Dumbledore when they die.

You'll note that Dumbledore was putting all the words in Severus' mouth on the hilltop, and Severus was too distraught to respond coherently. Looking at this objectively, Dumbledore's premise, that Severus could or should beg for the lives of the male Potters, was faulty, as was his conclusion that Severus was disgusting because he didn't do it. In short (and sorry for the rant), it's a trap!

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Most of what you've said here is basically repeating what I only realised in my epiphany noted in my previous post; i.e. that my idealised definition of 'true love' might simply not apply in Rowling's world - given her disturbed and ugly portrayal of it for even her favoured couplings - and thus I maybe can't use it in measuring Snape's regard for Lily.

So yes, I appreciate the point, and it has me thinking.

But Snape's deciding to join a bunch of people dedicated to the oppression and (at least later) slaughter of people like Lily Evans is difficult to reconcile with any 'love' he might have had for her too.

You'll note that Dumbledore was putting all the words in Severus' mouth on the hilltop

Yes, I wish he hadn't; I wish he'd given Snape enough rope to show us what he truly thought!

[seductivedark.livejournal.com]

In a different fictional world the teen-aged or recently teen-aged unrequited lover would be counseled not to be bitter, that if they truly love the other person they should be happy to see the other person happy, and then the poor soul would spend the rest of the chapter at least trying to put this into effect because it really is the only way to have peace of mind when one is rejected. I'm a curmudgeonly old grandma but I remember aching so desperately when the guy I adored adored my neighbor instead. Happy? Not hardly. At peace? Hell, no. Ineffectual and, dare I say, impotent to prevent his preference? Absolutely. So, in the end, I liked someone else and learned that the first crush isn't the only fish in the pond.

Snape, being one of Rowling's creations, must adhere to his high school sweetheart until death does he part. Harry marries Ginny, his flame from high school, Ron marries Hermione/Hermione marries Ron, flames from high school, George marries Fred's old girlfriend because of some sick weirdness but she and Fred were romantic in high school, and so on. Only that evil Draco and that lunatic Luna dare to marry outside of Harry's very tiny circle of acquaintances. And Remus - he didn't marry a girl from his own school years and see what that got him.

The main policies of the DEs didn't seem to be anti-Muggle-born back in VoldWar I - according to Rowling, Voldemort tried to recruit Muggle-born Lily as well as her Pure Blood husband.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

... according to Rowling, Voldemort tried to recruit Muggle-born Lily as well as her Pure Blood husband.

I've asked someone else about that. Is this stated in the canon, or is it just a bit of jumbled, ill considered, spur of the moment, feel good at the time, inconsistent post-publication propaganda by Rowling?

(Can you tell I'm not a fan of her trying to prop up her story after the books were printed? :-))

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

The way I took it was that Snape did love her (we see plenty of examples in canon of love being more like obsession than love--look at Merope) but he loved her selfishly, so his love didn't reach a transcendent level. It was the same "greedy" feeling he had when he was a kid, and probably the same greediness that led to their breakup.

Ironically, of course, Snape learns to be more giving. I assume we're supposed to think that somebody like Harry already had that so Snape is only learning to be a bit better like Harry. But really Snape kind of leapfrogs over him just by having to meet that kind of challenge. The most of that type thing Harry gets comes with his opportunities to gloat over his enemies, like when he can pity Draco and Voldemort when he knows he's going to suffer. Harry's saving Draco does show that he's got enough basic decency to save Draco's life even though Draco's done nothing to deserve it and Harry would be happy if he were dead (Draco's own moment of showing more decency than Crabbe is rushed over even though Draco seems to actually be putting his life at risk more than Harry does), but he never gets to make the kind of sacrifice Snape does. It's just that with Snape it's a punishment and a penance so it's not as good maybe.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Madderbrad, I'm sorry to be nagging at you about this, but I simply have no doubt that Severus Snape loved Lily to the best of his ability. At the time of the conversation on the hillside, he was a poorly-socialized boy with (from what we see in canon) no experience at all of having been loved himself. That he is able to risk his life, twice, for someone who does not care for him is pretty remarkable. Unlike Dumbledore - whom I see as a monster after DH - I am not going to knock him for it.

But I'm not being very clear in explaining what I mean. Sionna_Raven was extremely clear, in an earlier discussion. She explains that what she sees in the memories Severus shares with Harry, and in his actions as a whole, is not obsession, or any kind of stalkerish "love". It's remorse. It's a confession of his own sins, and of his sorrow for his weaknesses and limitations, and of the harm he caused another person. And - that takes strength and courage of a kind we see from no one else in the Potterverse, as well as a capacity for love. Dumbledore, of course, cannot see this. But one of the things that drives me mad about the Potterverse is that confession and repentance are consistently shown as signs of weakness. Harry, the hero, never has to apologize and is rarely - if ever - truly sorry for anything he does. But this attitude in the books is wrong. If Severus is the only person who shows any capacity for repentance and transformation, this makes him a true hero in my eyes!

And that's what the Snape/Lily thing is all about. It isn't Cathy and Heathcliff, though I'm sure Rowling would like it to be. It's Dante and Beatrice, and Snape is Dante.

Okay. I'll get down off my high horse now. But I really need to thank Sionna_Raven for putting this so well. It's what I'd been fumbling towards for awhile, but I just never put it that clearly.