deathtocapslock | COS Chapter Seven: "Mudbloods and Murmurs"

for-diddled.livejournal.com posting in

* Collin’s really acting like an obsessive stalker here. I wonder if that’s how Harry appeared to Draco in HBP?

* Ron’s malfunctioning wand actually sounds quite dangerous, but nobody thinks it might be a good idea to replace it. Although OTOH having a lax attitude towards safety seems to be one of the few things about the WW that seems consistent throughout the books (they’ll show it again when Percy tries to stop people using dangerous cauldrons), so maybe I should be thankful that it isn’t just one of these things that changes whenever the plot demands.

* I assume that JKR’s just forgotten to mention the try-outs that every Quidditch team apparently does each year.

* I’m just going to tune out while Harry recaps the rules of Quidditch for Collin.

* Everyone’s not bothering to pay attention to Wood’s new tactics. Remember kids, teamwork’s for suckers! You just do what you want to do!

* Wood is still upset over Gryffindor losing last year. Serves him right for being too thick to have a reserve Seeker, IMHO.

* Note how Wood’s first reaction upon seeing Collin is to jump to the conclusion that he’s a Slytherin spy. Not that he’s in any way biased against Slytherin, or anything like that.

* Remember chaps, looking like a troll = evil. Part-giant, OTOH, = misunderstood woobie. Even though trolls don’t really seem much worse than giants.

* There are no girls on the Slytherin team, just to remind everyone that they’re sexist, and therefore evil. JKR hates sexism, which is why she took care to include so many liberated, independent-minded women in the novels.

* Wood’s “spitting with rage” now. Christ, Oliver, calm down, it’s not the end of the world. Maybe the Gryffindor and Slytherin teams could just play a friendly, or something.

* “Aren’t you Lucius Malfoy’s son?” says Fred, looking at Draco with dislike. Remember kids, it’s wrong to judge people based on their family.

* Is it possible to smirk so broadly that your eyes are “reduced to slits”, or is Draco actually grinning with happiness here?

* I don’t think that Malfoy did buy his way onto the team. For a start, Seeker is the most (i.e., only) important position in the game, and I don’t think that flying on better brooms would compensate for having an inferior Seeker. Secondly, he’s on the team for at least three years, when the Slytherins could easily have ditched him as soon as they’d got the brooms. They’d even have had a good excuse after losing that Quidditch match in “The Rogue Bludger”.

* Lucius seemed like quite a harsh, demanding father when we saw him in Borgin and Burke’s, IMHO, so the thought that he’s pleased daddy enough to make him buy new brooms for the team is probably making Draco grin even more.

* I bet he looks adorable in this scene.

* Now I can’t stop thinking of Lauren Lopez in A Very Potter Sequel. “Don’t worry, daddy, you’ll love me after this! I’ll catch that Snitch, mark my words!”

* Just thought it interesting to note that Malfoy wasn’t involved in the conversation until Ron brought him in. It’s not like he was strutting up and down, boasting about his new broom, or anything like that.

* Hermione’s the one who starts with the personal insults. Really, I think that the good [sic] guys are acting worse than the baddies here.

* If the theory that Draco’s really just happy because he’s finally made his daddy proud is right, then implying that he’d just bought his way onto the team is probably one of the most offensive things Hermione could say. Unsurprisingly, he responds with one of the most offensive things that he could say.

* Draco calls Hermione a “Mudblood”, despite the fact that she’s a Muggleborn, and therefore cannot be expected to know what it means, suggesting that either she’s upset him so much he’s not thinking straight, or that he wants to keep face in front of his teammates by responding to her insults, but at the same time doesn’t want to upset her. If the latter, it could be evidence for some kind of D/Hr ship.

* JKR seems to be expecting us to go “ZOMG Draco’s an evil racist!” suggesting that she’s forgotten why exactly it is that racism’s considered so wrong. I don’t think it’s just that you’re looking down on people for the way they were born – if it were, then jokes about stupid blondes would be considered as bad as jokes about stupid black people. Rather, it’s wrong because minorities often suffer from discrimination (and in many cases have suffered from it even more in the relatively recent past), and racist language helps to reinforce and normalise the prejudiced attitudes which lead to such discrimination. Because we haven’t really see people suffering from anti-Muggleborn prejudice, it’s hard to think of “Mudblood” as a particularly serious insult.

* This, BTW, is why I disagree with people who say things like “Rowling uses the Harry Potter books to teach children not to be racist.” If she were really doing that, she’d show how racism affects people’s lives (cf. To Kill a Mockingbird). What she’s actually doing is taking real racism and using it in lieu of actual worldbuilding and characterisation. We already know that racism is wrong, and we think Draco’s a bad person because his use of the term “Mudblood” is superficially similar to real-life examples of racism; we don’t learn about how racism is bad from its effects on HP characters, because it doesn’t really have any.

* Anyway, back to the actual story…

* Once again, the good guys are the first to use force. Why am I not surprised?

* I think it’s sweet the way Flint dives in front of Malfoy to stop him being attacked. The Slytherins often seem to look out for each other the most (see also Lucius patting Snape on the back when he’s first Sorted). Contrast this with the Gryffindors in PS, who refuse to speak to Harry, Hermione, Ron or Neville after they lose some House Points.

* What’s this, one of the good guys has suffered some negative consequences as a result of attacking someone else? Hold on while I go make a note of this in my diary.

* Again with the clothes! Lockhart’s wearing robes of “palest mauve” today. Harry’s really starting to look rather gay now; given JKR’s fondness for stereotypes (viz. the Finnegans) and inability to write a decent romance (chest monster!), I wouldn’t be at all surprised to find her way of showing homosexuality would be having someone spend all their time looking at their crush’s clothes.

* Note how Hagrid doesn’t remonstrate with Ron for trying to curse Malfoy. Clearly he’s a responsible adult and an excellent candidate for a prestigious teaching position.

* I know Hagrid doesn’t like Lockhart, but he really should know better than to undermine him like that in front of his pupils.

* So the jinx on DADA has been in place for what, forty or so years now? And people are only just starting to twig? I know wizards are slow learners, but really…

* Also, couldn’t Dumbledore find ways to either discover how Riddle jinxed the position and undo it somehow, or to get around it, such as hiring two teachers who each teach on alternate years or getting rid of DADA and replacing it with a class which is functionally indistinguishable but has a different name (“battle magic”, perhaps?).

* I think that this scene was one which the film actually did better than the books. Yes, having Hermione getting all upset may not have been fully logical, but it at least made Draco look like a hurtful bully rather than an eccentric crank. It also suggested that someone might have called Hermione that before, hinting at actual day-to-day anti-Muggleborn prejudice, which is more than the books ever managed to do.

* “Maybe it was a good thing yer wand backfired.” Wait, is Hagrid glad that Ron got to be on the receiving end in the hope that he’ll be less likely to curse people in future? No, of course not, he’s worrying that Ron might otherwise have got in trouble.

* Hagrid comes across as so judgemental when he says “’Spect Lucius Malfoy would’ve come marchin’ up ter school if yeh’d cursed his son.” Clearly, caring about your children being attacked is a sign of great evil. Good guys know that being randomly hexed is what makes a man out of you.

* Although Lucius doesn’t seem to have done much when Draco was hexed into unconsciousness on the train (twice!), which probably foreshadows the Redeemed!Malfoys situation at the end of DH.

* Hagrid’s been breaking the law to make his pumpkins grow faster. Which couldn’t possibly be dangerous in any way, oh no.

* Suddenly, Draco’s gossip about him getting drunk and setting his bed on fire looks awfully plausible.

* Everybody hates Filch, which is entirely understandable, given all the times he complains about having to clean up the mess children make and, erm, gives them detention for breaking the rules. Yep, entirely understandable.

* So how does Parseltongue work, then? ’Cause surely Lockhart ought to have heard it, even if he didn’t understand what it was saying? Or is it a sort of telepathy? But then Ron managed to speak it in DH…

* Awfully convenient the way the basilisk goes around describing its evil plan to itself, isn’t it? Do basilisks just have really bad memories, and need to keep repeating their plans to themselves in case they forget?

* Part of me can’t help but feel pleased that Ron vomited slugs over that trophy. Maybe next time he’ll think twice before hexing someone. Or not.

Current Mood: contemplative
Current Location: The Quidditch Pitch

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

borg-princess.livejournal.com

Lol! Yeah, he uses lumos a lot as well, that would've been just as effective in their life-and-death confrontation. *eyeroll*

Sorry to keep quoting at you, but the mindset people have towards this series flabbergasts me so much, I just...

Casting Expelliarmus was completely in character for Harry, though; the nature of Expelliarmus is to disarm, not to harm, and Harry has proven time and time again that despite his moments of letting his emotions take control of his actions, that he is truly and deeply altruistic, and sympathizes with his enemies (e.g. "Try for a little remorse, Tom" from The Flaw in the Plan, or saving Pettigrew's life, for instance).

If Harry had used Avada Kedavra, it would have been a betrayal of his character and to everyone he had ever loved or who had ever died for him. The poetic justice of Voldemort's own spell bringing upon his own death due to his own arrogance and pride would have been lost if Harry had killed him point blank.

Yeah....Harry who likes crucio a little too much when he finally unleashes it, Harry who had no issue hurling Dark spells at Snape in HBP...and yet it's betraying his character to use something a little more aggressive than a disarming spell? This is the boy who hexed a Squib in the corridors for fun! But to defeat the evil villain who's killed so many people- his own parents, FFS!- who's injured and victimized countless others, all he can muster is an Expelliarmus? O.o

From:

aikaterini.livejournal.com

Well, to be honest, I did appreciate that Harry did *not* stoop so low as to cast Avada Kedavra at Voldemort. He cast an Imperius and he cast a Crucio in DH, but he didn't cast Avada Kedavra. There's still some hope for his soul left. ;)

But I still disagree with most of what the poster said. Harry did tell Sirius and Remus to spare Peter's life in PoA, true, but it was only because he didn't think his father would want his friends to be murderers. When he and Peter met up again in DH, Harry didn't plead for his life; he outright *demanded* Peter to spare him as a right, reminding him of the bargain in a way that's not so different from how I'd imagine James would rub the bond in Snape's face if he knew about it.

And the "try for a little remorse, Tom" line just seemed random to me. I don't think that there was any other time where Harry asked Voldemort to feel remorse. Was it only because of his confidence in knowing how the duel would end and knowing what Voldemort's soul looked like that made Harry tell him that?

Besides, whenever Harry *does* sympathize with his enemies, it's not for very long and it doesn't mean much in the long run. He does feel a little drop of pity for Draco in HBP, but it's only a little drop, and he does feel bad for Draco when he sees him forced to perform the Cruciatus Curse in Voldemort's visions, but again, he only sees Draco from afar; he doesn't have to deal with him personally. With Voldemort, it's even worse. The one time that Harry feels sorry for Tom, where he indignantly asks why Merope couldn't have tried to save herself for the sake of her son, and Dumbledore instantly raises his eyebrows and asks, "Are you feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort?"

You know, just to remind us that however wretched and unhappy that little boy was, he still grew up to be Voldemort, so there's no point in feeling the slightest bit of sympathy for him. Just like there was no point in helping the wounded baby of his fragmented soul. Come on, Dumbledore, Harry has every reason in the world to hate Voldemort; he isn't going to immediately become Tom's fanboy if he takes a moment to feel sorry for him.

From:

lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com

Well, to be honest, I did appreciate that Harry did *not* stoop so low as to cast Avada Kedavra at Voldemort. He cast an Imperius and he cast a Crucio in DH, but he didn't cast Avada Kedavra. There's still some hope for his soul left. ;)

To each their own! I actually *don't* appreciate that Harry didn't use Avada Kedavra. Harry was out to kill Voldemort. In fact, he spent the entire book out to kill Voldemort -- not to fight the DE's in any other way, as I recall, just to kill this one guy.

So, without some theoretical background on Dark Magic in general, or Avada Kedavra in particular, I can't appreciate the distinction between using that spell and something else to kill him. We know that Avada Kedavra is *illegal*, but killing people usually is.

It's kind of like... if Harry tasered Voldemort to try to kill him, knowing that he had a weak heart, and Voldemort did indeed die from it. And part of the reason why Voldemort had a weak heart was because Harry'd been spending months slipping some kind of poison into his food, and it was all part of the plan.

Why is that morally superior to using a typical gun?

I don't mean to suggest that it was wrong for Harry to kill Voldemort -- far from it. But that's what he did, and was trying to do. I don't think that using a different spell would have made it any worse.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

Well, to be honest, I did appreciate that Harry did *not* stoop so low as to cast Avada Kedavra at Voldemort. He cast an Imperius and he cast a Crucio in DH, but he didn't cast Avada Kedavra. There's still some hope for his soul left. ;)

I agree with Lynn that Harry's last stand was lame. There is no moral difference between killing with AK or any other method. If the act of killing is a murder it would split the soul of the perpetrator in either case. The only magical difference between AK and other methods is that the AK apparently requires magical intent, which seems to translates to a strong desire for the intended outcome. If the point is that Harry *couldn't* AK Tom then what it means that he didn't really want him dead that much. Maybe it was hard to let go of the Tom-influenced life.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

You know, I'm wondering - what if Harry's Expeliarmus had been faster than Tom's AK. He'd have gotten the wand, but Tom would have still been standing there. What would have been Harry's next move? Arrest him and hand him to Kingsley? Find some other way to kill him? (He could always try levitating a bit of furniture to bash Tom's head or something. And there's always an entrail-expelling curse.)

From:

oryx_leucoryx

From:

karentheunicorn.livejournal.com

'Try for a little remorse' isn't sympathy with Tom, it is taunting him. Remorse has the power to heal the soul, but only if the parts of it are present. How can remorse heal Tom's soul when 7/8 of it are gone for ever?

Yes, exactly. You can't force that kind of crap on anyone, no matter what kind of evil they've done. Harry's 'try for a little remorse' doesn't come across as any kind of request, it does come across as a taunt and it certainly doesn't seem to be coming from a person who is attempting to give forgiveness or get it.

Voldemort had ripped his soul to bits but JKR seems to ignore the fact. The man wasn't a whole person so how could he possibly feel remorse? Yea, he did it to himself but Harry's comment just seems a bit lame considering Voldie is damaged goods who has removed bits of himself in an attempt to remain alive forever.

Which, technically didn't he achieve his goal? If the Horcuxes hadn't been destroyed I wonder how long Voldie would survive.

From:

sharaz-jek.livejournal.com

It's very unclear how the soul works in HP. The first time I read it, I assumed it was some sort of silvery candy-floss-like think that would grow back removed parts upon application of remorse, regardless of whether the original fragment had been destroyed.

Because what actually happens if someone creates a Horcrux and then repents? Does the Horcrux remain ensouled but lose its connection to its creator? Does the soul fragment tear itself free and fly back to its owner? Inquiring minds want to know.

From:

karentheunicorn.livejournal.com

If Harry had used Avada Kedavra,

Where in the context of the argument has anyone suggested Harry needed to use Avada Kedavra?

Maybe tell them that, watch there head explode.

The context of dark magic seems to be made clear throughout the series that it's 'BAD', that dark magic affects you. That good people don't do it, that bad people do 'dark magic'

Yet we have situations where good characters are doing 'dark magic' including Mr. truly and deeply altruistic, and sympathizes with his enemies.

It is that the final meeting between Harry and Voldemort happened...over and over again, in practically the same manner. It would have been nice if there would have been a changeup in how Voldemort was finally defeated besides the two characters casting the same spell.

It isn't about what damn spell Harry cast - it's that we practically have this same confrontation from the main good and evil character over again. It's like we're seeing the exact same story over again.

It's like Voldemort is one of those cheesy horror movie guys that keeps coming back.

It would have been nice to see the Horcuxes used differently. Maybe some sort of spell at the end to join all the bits of Voldies soul back together, and the last bit was in Harry so When that part left Harry and joined with Voldie it would carry some of harry's super powered Love virus with it and THAT would have been what destroyed Voldie.

What JKR really had happen was the damn AK spell bounced off Harry and hit Voldie. Its sorta the same thing that happened twice before. It made the whole thing seem sort of comical and stupid.

So I don't think anyone who is arguing it's the 'same damn spells' is saying harry needed to do AK or dark magic or whatthehelleverspell.

I think most of us are complaining because we're getting the same scene handed to us over and over and the only difference seems to be the constumes and landscape of the scene was changed.

And I don't think the Harry is so uber good to his enemies is a good argument either seeing as how there doesn't seem to be much effect to the good guys using dark magic. There is nothing that seems to be bad about a spell except who is casting it. So all the nonsense we were spewed about dark magic is a lie and all the crap about young Snape being into 'dark magic' seems to only be true based on the accusers alligence.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

What JKR really had happen was the damn AK spell bounced off Harry and hit Voldie.

That actually never happened. In 1981 the AK just hit Tom. Because his soul just split (because he was committing murder) one bit went loose - and it happened to land in Harry's head (though it could have gone somewhere else).

In 1998 Tom's spell clashed with Harry's, like in Harry and Draco's duel in GOF. Fortunately the spells clashed head-on so the rebound hit Tom and not some bystander. And miraculously Tom was also hit by Harry's spell.

In 1981 Harry was protected by Lily - Voldemort couldn't touch him or cast spells directly at him, but he was vulnerable in all other ways. In 1998 he was protected by Tom himself - if he was hit by anything lethal from whatever source, as long as Tom still lived and Harry's body was still around Harry's soul could return to his body.

It's still comical stupid, because Harry had so many protections on him he really wasn't risking anything (and he knew it because Twinkles told him at King's Cross).

From:

karentheunicorn.livejournal.com

In 1981 the AK just hit Tom

It still bounced or if you prefer rebound.

The spell came out of Voldies wand, he did not cast it at himself. In effect the energy of the AK spell either bounced off Harry or bounced off the magic Lily created with her sacrifice. Take your pick which caused the bounce.

I really don't care if it actually hit Harry or not. Magic is energy, it came out of Voldemorts wand and went at the baby and something caused it to 'bounce' back at Voldemort.

I don't think JKR was into physics, but to me magic is nothing more than a form of energy and the AK came up against a force/wall/sheld/thing that can deflect it's own power and send it back in on itself.

The magic Lily created not only was powerful enough to be a shield it was powerful enough to send that AK spell energy back at Voldemort.

So, to me it doesn't matter if it hit Harry or not, it still in the basic sense, Bounced back at Voldemort.

And it kept getting kicked back at Voldemort.

Apparently 3 times is the charm.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

The spell came out of Voldies wand, he did not cast it at himself. In effect the energy of the AK spell either bounced off Harry or bounced off the magic Lily created with her sacrifice. Take your pick which caused the bounce.

The spell did not touch Harry. It's path went from Tom's wand, in some kind of loop right back at Tom. The exchange between Albus and Minerva about Harry's scar in chapter 1 of PS is smart misdirection by Albus - he lets Minerva believe the scar is where the AK hit Harry, but he never says so, and it is not in fact true. The scar is where Tom's soul-bit entered Harry's head. But it was important for Albus that nobody suspect that Tom is inside Harry's head, so he reinforces the explanation people come up with intuitively. Which means the whole deal about Harry being the first survivor of the Killing Curse is a lie. Harry was saved from a killing curse but so was anyone who ducked behind any physical barrier when an AK went hir way.

From:

karentheunicorn.livejournal.com

The spell did not touch Harry. It's path went from Tom's wand, in some kind of loop right back at Tom

I don't know if JKR has explained it as the spell never hit Harry. So either way the only way that seems logical to me is the AK spell is energy. So I have to theorize it my own way because I don't know what canon or JKR has said to the effect of the spell not hitting baby harry

The AK energy emerged from Voldemorts wand and was directed at Baby Harry.

Whatever Lily created at her death was what prevented Harry from being killed. It was not Harry but what she created.

The simplest way to explain it is maybe call Lily's magic a shield or wall. If the AK was a bullet, it would more than likely stick in the shield/wall.

So to me, the energy not only had to be deflected it had to be knocked back in on itself with enough force to be just as powerful or more powerful than it was when it was cast. No AK's cause houses to explode that I know of, this seems to be the only instance where an AK went off like a bomb and blew up a house and destroyed a body.

The atom of Voldemorts evil met with the atom of Lily's good - it made a big boom, and in that Voldemorts body was destroyed.

You're theory is the AK spell never touched Harry. Thats fine, but for me it had to come into contact with him or Lily's magic would not have needed to react to the baby being attacked.

Voldie's AK spell is what invoked the rebound, and Lilys death was tied to Harry, because she wanted her son to live and that was probably her very last thought before she died, thus to me it had to have touched Harry or the 'rebound' would not have happened.

If Voldemort had just picked Harry up carried him off and drown him, things might have worked differently. It's the fact that Voldie used a spell magic (energy) and that energy came up against another kind of magic energy.

So, I do think that the AK spell had to have touched Harry or the Lily magic would have never been invoked. Unless you are saying Voldie could have done anything bad to Harry and Lily's magic would have still awakened and destoryed Voldie.

Would Lily's magic have saved baby Harry if Voldie had done/used something else besides magic to kill baby Harry?

From:

oryx_leucoryx

If Voldemort had just picked Harry up carried him off and drown him, things might have worked differently.

As we see in PS with Quirrell, Tom couldn't touch Harry, nor could he cast spells on Harry directly. What he could have done is manipulate other objects, physically or magically in order to kill Harry. He couldn't lift Harry or Accio him or levitate him in order to drop him or drown him or whatever. But he could drop a heavy weight on his head, or set the house on fire. We know that because we see that Quirrellmort (but not just Quirrell who is obeying Vapormort's orders) can't touch Harry without being burned, but he can cast a spell on Harry's broom while Harry is riding it.

There was no necessity for Tom to cast a spell of any kind to activate the magic, it got activated when Lily said 'take me instead' and Tom went and killed her. It would have worked regardless of whether he used magic to kill her or not. It might have even worked if he failed to kill her but fully intended to.

From:

karentheunicorn.livejournal.com

As we see in PS with Quirrell, Tom couldn't touch Harry, nor could he cast spells on Harry directly. What he could have done is manipulate other objects, physically or magically in order to kill Harry.

As long as it wasn't skin to skin contact he could have smothered him with a pillow. Quirrel couldn't touch his bare skin without suffering pain.

He couldn't lift Harry or Accio him or levitate him in order to drop him or drown him or whatever.

As long as he didn't have bare skin contact he could. Which sounds to be like there was some sort of shield right around Harry's skin, on his skin. Notice that Quirrell didn't get burned by being only a inch from harry, it's when he touched him.

If Voldie had of cast the AK and it would have missed Harry by an inch would the same effect happen?

But he could drop a heavy weight on his head, or set the house on fire.

Yes, exactly there would have been no direct contact. He could have wrapped baby Harry in a blanket or put him in a sack and thrown him in the river. Well, unless baby Harry was nude...and I'm fairly sure the baby had clothing on. Voldie wouldn't have had to touch the baby's bare skin.

We know that because we see that Quirrellmort (but not just Quirrell who is obeying Vapormort's orders) can't touch Harry without being burned, but he can cast a spell on Harry's broom while Harry is riding it.

Yea, he couldn't touch him skin to skin and was burned but there was no new scar produced on Harry and Voldie's soul didn't split again and neither did Quirrells.

Quirrell touching Harry didn't cause an explosion like what happened in the Potters house.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

If Voldie had of cast the AK and it would have missed Harry by an inch would the same effect happen?

The intended target of the AK would have still been Harry, so I think yes.

Yea, he couldn't touch him skin to skin and was burned but there was no new scar produced on Harry and Voldie's soul didn't split again and neither did Quirrells.

For a soul to split someone has to die. At Godric's Hollow Tom's soul tore once for James, once for Lily and once for Tom himself. It was Terri's proposal that Tom tearing his own soul, which was already in a raggedy state that caused the extra magic of destroying Tom's body and the house.

At the end of PS the only person who died was Quirrell and the person who caused the death was Harry. If it hadn't been in self-defense then it would be Harry's soul that split.

COS Chapter Seven: "Mudbloods and Murmurs"

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