COS Chapter Twelve: "The Polyjuice Potion"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* Sincere apologies for the lack of postage over the past few weeks; suffice to say that, whilst I’d be happy to log on regularly, RL seems to have other ideas.

 

* Slytherin are so evil that even the thought of being there is enough to make Harry feel sick. These books are such a good argument for tolerance, don’t you think?

* “Harry was just thinking that all he needed was for Dumbledore’s pet bird to die while he was alone in the office with it” just makes him sound so self-centred. Never mind about the dead bird, or Dumbledore losing his beloved pet, I might get in trouble for it! Even though I’d have no motive in killing it and it was pretty obviously sick before I came in.

* Fawkes is usually very pretty, just in case we were worrying that Harry might end up having his life saved by something ugly.

* Given what we now know about Dumbledore’s views on personal loyalty, the emphasis on the word “faithful” looks rather sinister.

* Any guesses on why exactly Hagrid needs to carry the rooster around with him in the castle?

* That’s right, Harry, don’t tell DD about that mysterious voice you heard! Heaven forbid that you might actually help him solve the mystery before anybody is seriously hurt.

* I think it’s rather sweet that Crabbe and Goyle are staying behind with Malfoy. They really do seem to care about each other. (Well, until the abomination that is DH, that is.)

* Harry’s glad that most people are leaving, despite the fact that this’ll narrow down the potential list of suspects and make it more likely that they’ll be caught.

* “[Harry] was tired of people skirting around him in the corridors, as though he were about to sprout fangs or spit poison; tired of all the muttering, pointing and hissing as he passed.” I wonder if that’s what the Slytherins feel like all the time?

* I have to admit, F&G’s heir of Slytherin routine is pretty amusing. But since it’s so different to their usual brand of “humour”, I think I can like it without feeling too guilty.

* I wonder why Fred, George and Ginny have decided to stay? Is it because the fine Mr. Weasley had to pay means they can’t afford to take them, and they’re too proud to admit the real reason?

* I’m sure that the teachers of Hogwarts appreciate Percy staying behind to help them, even if Harry doesn’t.

*How rude of the Dursleys to send him a toothpick like that, especially when Harry gave them an expensive luxury hamper bursting to the brim with Honeyduke’s finest chocolate. Or nothing. I forget which.

* BTW, it seems odd to go to all the trouble of sending Harry such a silly little present. Unless DD sent Hedwig to keep bothering them until they sent something…

* Ron gives Harry a book about Ron’s favourite Quidditch team, rather than something Harry would be expected to be interested in.

* I hope Mrs. Weasley gave her real children presents which were at least as good as the ones she gave Harry.

* F&G have bewitched Percy’s Prefect Badge to make it say “Pinhead”. Oh, the hilarity!

* Crabbe and Goyle eat four helpings of pudding. Harry and Ron, who aren’t greedy pigs, limit themselves to three.

* Hermione’s telling the Slytherins that Millicent Bulstrode came back would backfire spectacularly once they realised that Millicent had not in fact returned, and that they had, therefore, been tricked.

* It’s a shame that nobody’s written a HP/Hercule Poirot crossover fic, in which Poirot investigates the Polyjuice incident. He’d probably solve the mystery within half an hour, and then work out who’s petrifying all those students for good measure.

* Ron and Hermione are prepared to knock out two of Draco’s friends based on extremely flimsy evidence. Remember this is HBP, when they refuse to believe that Draco’s up to something, despite having much better evidence than they do here.

* At least Harry and Ron didn’t strip Crabbe and Goyle. Be grateful for small mercies, I suppose.

* Millicent Bulstrode is “no pixie”, apparently, which seems like a polite way of saying “fat”. Outside of fandom, are there any pretty Slytherin girls, or are they all fat and ugly?

* You’d have thought it wouldn’t have been beyond the Trio to change into their new clothes before taking the Polyjuice Potion.

* Ever since reading Draco Dormiens, I’ve always imagined Harry surreptitiously checking to see whether Goyle is bigger than he is.

* And now they’ve got to find the Slytherin common room. Gee, guys, would it have been impossible to find that out before you took the Potion? Even if you don’t arouse suspicion by not knowing where it is, you’ll waste valuable time trying to find it.

* All this makes Ron’s quip about Goyle being dumb look rather silly.

* I don’t know why, but I’ve always thought that this Ravenclaw girl was Penelope Clearwater. Perhaps she’s just been meeting Percy in one of the disused dungeons.

* Whoever she is, her reply to Harry and Ron is rather rude. Is that what the Slytherins are treated like all the time? It’s a shame Harry and Ron never consider this, and maybe get a bit of sympathy for the Slytherins.

* The Slytherin password is “Pureblood”, just to remind us that they’re all racists, and, therefore, evil. Never mind that Slytherin’s most famous alumni, Tom Riddle and Severus Snape, were both halfbloods, and in Tom’s case, there was no way to know whether he was a muggleborn, pureblood or half-blood.

* The Slytherin common-room doesn’t look particularly luxurious, which seems odd for a supposed bastion of aristocratic privilege. Perhaps it’s like that to try and inculcate some humility into the children, like the fag system in old British public schools.

* I think it’s rather sweet of Mr. Malfoy to send his son newspaper clippings like that. “Here, Draco, let’s both laugh together at these guys!” I still think it odd that such an evil bully as Draco apparently is wouldn’t make greater use of it to humiliate Ron. Maybe he’s not so bad after all.

* Mrs. Weasley has threatened to set the family ghoul on reporters, apparently not realising that that sort of action is extremely bad publicity.

* Draco’s theory about DD hushing up the attacks is probably correct; at any rate, nobody seems to refer to them much in later books.

* Do racists normally go on about how much they hate [insert ethnicity here] as much as Draco’s doing in this scene? It just comes across as really false and over-the-top, at least to me. Perhaps he’s twigged that there’s something wrong with “Crabbe” and “Goyle”, and is deliberately acting oddly in order to see if they notice.

* Draco wishes that Hermione would get killed by the monster. Knowing what she’s going to become in later books, I can’t help but wonder whether that might not be for the best after all.

* For all Harry and Ron’s jokes about C&G being thick, they seem to be arousing Draco’s suspicions by being slower on the uptake.

* Harry and Ron are “hoping against hope that Malfoy hadn’t noticed anything.” I wouldn’t count on it, guys; he seems like a good Potions student, so he probably remembers what Snape said about the Polyjuice Potion; Harry and Ron were the least convincing Crabbe and Goyle imaginable; a boy who can notice Harry’s foot slipping out of the invisibility cloak for a split second would almost certainly notice his best friends changing into somebody else before his eyes; and the real Crabbe and Goyle would tell him that they weren’t there. He probably knows what happened, and feels really annoyed that DD doesn’t do anything about it.

* What’s the point of Cat!Hermione? It doesn’t advance the plot, it doesn’t contribute to characterisation, and it doesn’t add to the atmosphere of the story. Perhaps it’s to stop people questioning her plan by making them feel sorry for her.

* “Madam Pomfrey never asks too many questions…” Given what goes on in Hogwarts, maybe it’s time she started.

 

Comments

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"That moment annoys me so much. Heaven forbid Harry feel the least bit sorry for Voldemort, because apparently, the tiniest drop of pity for your enemies leads to the Dark Side."

To be fair (!) to JKR, I always read that scene as less "Harry, how could you feel pity for Voldemort? Better stamp on that right away!" than "Oh, you clearly feel pity pity for Lord V., now I'm going to draw your attention to this fact by making you think about it directly."

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Oh. *ponders* You mean he was...trying to encourage it? Like, 'Oh, good boy, you feel some empathy, did you notice that?' Except Harry didn't take it that way and stamped it down because he thought, like we do, that Dumbles was disapproving.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

I did think that Dumbledore was disapproving, given that he raised his eyebrows while asking, "Are you possibly feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort?"

The raised eyebrows and the word "possibly" led me to believe that Dumbledore was not trying to encourage Harry to sympathize with Voldemort at all. If anything, he spent most of the Pensieve sessions explaining how Voldemort was evil incarnate.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Yes. I read it that way too. Also, if he truly wished to encourage Harry, wouldn't the *last* thing he'd do be to *drop* the subject when Harry denies it?

His disapproval here also matches his later discouraging Harry to make any attempt to help the screaming Baby!Mort, and his conflating of Harry's desire for revenge against Voldemort with his supposedly amazing ability to love. Hating your enemies = pure love, is what he signals to Harry. (Yes, clearly Harry loves his parents and thus wishes revenge, but loving one's own relatives - especially idealized ones you don't actually remember - is not the same as loving/feeling compassion for one's enemies, especially when it leads you to *hate* others. Dumbledore is conflating ordinary affection with agape here, or more precisely thoughts of anger and hate deriving from bonds of ordinary affection with agape. Totally backwards and BS.)

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

conflating of Harry's desire for revenge against Voldemort with his supposedly amazing ability to love. Hating your enemies = pure love, is what he signals to Harry.

THERE IS SO MUCH WRONG WITH THAT, I CAN'T EVEN.

How people see Dumbles as a good mentor, IDEK. He's totally bullshitting the kid he's setting up to commit suicide on cue. Oh, yes, I totally think this guy is worthy of admiration and respect. Not.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Someone should really write a multiple-canon-crossover fic in which Twinkles meets mentor figures from other works of literature and/or film and they tell him off. I can imagine Yoda telling Albus that seeking revenge isn't a demonstration of love, it is the way to the dark side of the Force.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

I can imagine Yoda telling Albus that seeking revenge isn't a demonstration of love, it is the way to the dark side of the Force.

Yoda to DD: Love, or love not. There IS no "love some".

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I totally read it as disapproving, I was just trying to understand from for_diddled's perspective...but yeah, it seems like Dumbles all right, to stamp out any hint of empathy from Harry and from the way he said nothing when Harry 'denied it quickly', it seems obvious he didn't care at all about encouraging his rare moment of putting himself in someone else's shoes.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I did think that Dumbledore was disapproving, given that he raised his eyebrows while asking, "Are you possibly feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort?"

The raised eyebrows and the word "possibly" led me to believe that Dumbledore was not trying to encourage Harry to sympathize with Voldemort at all. If anything, he spent most of the Pensieve sessions explaining how Voldemort was evil incarnate.

Oh, good point. Ya know I never really thought about that part but I've seen it talked about on here but yea, it almost seems like Dumbledore does not comprehend Harry's need to sympathize.

And it brings me back to another point where Dumbledore seems incapable of showing or understanding how to feel empathy. Look at how he treats Snape. There are a few instances where you kind of go WTF is your problem Dumbledore - a little understanding could go a long way here with your relationship with this troubled emotionally damanged person (Severus) yet DD seems more interested in egging Severus on and poking him with a sharp stick of duty than trying to help the guy.

So, in a way the Harry feeling Sympathy being sqashed out by DD kind of makes sense, because maybe Dumbledore is the one who doesn't get the whol empathy for bad people thing.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

you kind of go WTF is your problem Dumbledore - a little understanding could go a long way here with your relationship with this troubled emotionally damanged person (Severus) yet DD seems more interested in egging Severus on and poking him with a sharp stick of duty than trying to help the guy

He never had any interest in helping Snape- that was evident from when he hushed up the werewolf debacle and forbade a traumatized kid to speak of it to anyone and let the wrongdoers off scot-free. (I've been told not to make such blatant assumptions, lol, because it's not in the text, I don't know for sure, maybe they got detention! Riiiiight. Who sees Dumbles putting the Golden Boy and his buddies in detention or banning them from Hogsmeade?) And his whole 'you disgust me' moment, UGH, WHAT A BASTARD. He was more into breaking him down and rebuilding him as his puppet than anything else, the only value Snape had was as a tool and nothing more, I honestly believe that. Look at the passive-aggressive way he treats him, encouranges the animosity between him and Harry, enjoys his confusion and disappointment over Sirius' escape and everything else that douchecanoe does to him. ('Screw your soul, Snape, you're damned anyway, do as I say!')

Dumbles seriously lacks in empathy- I think he's the series psychopath, really.

[merrymelody.livejournal.com]

the only value Snape had was as a tool and nothing more

TBH, I've never seen any evidence Dumbledore ever viewed anyone as more than tools for him to use, whether it's for his own benefit or just to judge and use as illustrations of his own 'ethics'.
(That Merope comment, especially when voiced by a male character, is probably one of the top ten most disgusting implications in the Potterverse, and that's saying a lot. You might as well say mothers in the third world who die of birthing complications are just showing their inferiority to western mothers. If they loved their kids enough, they'd just choose to live! Um, somehow.)

[oryx_leucoryx]

Whatever punishment Sirius or anyone else got was light enough that he realized attacking Severus had enough approval from the highers-up - hence the fun of SWM.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Dumbles seriously lacks in empathy- I think he's the series psychopath, really.

This thread prompted me earlier today to look up the difference between "psychopath" and "sociopath".

Most definitions have them as basically the same condition, but one site differentiated between the two by stating that sociopaths usually cannot fit into general society because they are unable or unwilling to even PRETEND to care about others, while psychopaths are QUITE adept at pretending to care and to fake having empathy, and therefore actually not only fit into society, but often gain positions of authority.

Based on those definitions, Tom Riddle/Voldemort sounds more of a sociopath, while Dumbledore fits the definition of a psychopath to a tee! :-/

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

Having read that part again, DD tells Harry not to judge Merope too harshly, so that's one instance at least where he's trying to encourage more empathy in Harry; but then, as you all say, he drops the subject of Tom once Harry denies it, so IDRK what Rowling intended DD to mean, or even if she knew herself what DD meant.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Not sure I recall this correctly, but wasn't he doing that in the context of suggesting that Merope was too "weak?" Which, for me, just kind of makes it all insulting. It's a sort of slightly contemptuous pity, not true empathy (which requires the ability to *respect* another being as one's ontological equal). Harry's still being put above Merope there, as a strong brave pure Gryffindor. DD isn't encouraging Harry to see someone Harry doesn't like or is different from as Harry's equal and deserving of respect as a fellow human being; it's the same magnanimous "good Gryffindor" attitude we see (IMHO) in adult Harry's attitude towards Snape and in DD's attitude towards just about everyone other than Harry.

Of course, as you point out it could also be just JKR not having a clue what she's doing because she never reread anything.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/Harry's still being put above Merope there, as a strong brave pure Gryffindor./

Not only Harry, *Lily* is directly put above Merope as a strong, brave, pure Gryffindor. Right after Dumbledore tells Harry to "not judge Merope too harshly," he clarifies his words by saying that Merope "never had your mother's courage."

Never had Lily's courage? Their situations were *entirely* different. Merope was poor, sick, and starving. She wasn't facing a madman who was trying to kill her baby. She didn't have a choice whether to die or not. Mrs. Cole's account makes it pretty clear that it was complications in childbirth that claimed Merope's life, not any moral decision on her part. What, so if Lily had been ill and destitute while pregnant with Harry, she would have automatically survived a difficult childbirth through the strength of her moral fiber?

Merope and Tom are presumably supposed to be the dark reflections of Lily and Harry. But the moral implications of such a comparison fall flat because Merope and Tom's situations prevent them from having any choices in the matter. Merope died in childbirth, but that's not the sort of thing that you can consciously choose to prevent, as thousands of poor women across the world can tell you. Tom was evil not because of any bad decisions on his part, but because he was *born* evil. He was a "funny baby," he wasn't conceived in love, and his mother happened to be the direct descendant of Salazar Slytherin, so he was automatically evil from the start. How does one "choose" to be evil in such circumstances?

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Good point about Lily. Courage had nothing to do with Merope's death.

I agree with you about everything in fact other than the idea that Tom was "born evil" because of his descent from Slytherin and the lack of love between Riddle and Merope - much though Dumbledore and the narrative voice want us to believe that he was "born evil" for precisely the reasons you mention. (But I find the text not only contradictory in holding these positions given the condemnation of the DEs, who hold similar ideas about a different set of people, but also rather sickening.)

His descent from Salazar has nothing to do in actuality with his moral fiber, for two reasons:

1) it's not clear that Salazar was, in fact, evil. On the one hand, the situation then was somewhat different than that of Harry's day and Salazar may have had good reasons to distrust Muggleborns (distrust is explicitly spelled out in canon as his attitude, not hatred). On the other hand, even holding prejudiced ideas does not make someone completely, irredeemably evil. (Otherwise Snape's character makes no sense, if we are supposed to believe he was prejudiced against Harry for his Potter ancestry and yet redeemed.) Nor do such character traits as ambition or ability to think strategically.

2) moral character is not a biologically heritable trait. If it were the DEs would be right to be obsessive about blood, just wrong in their choice of target and rationale. In fact, if moral character were biologically heritable, that would be a good argument for executing or at least sterilizing anyone ever convicted of a crime, wouldn't it? And think about what sort of regimes tend to adopt such policies. I hardly think JKR intends to promote THAT sort of message.

Likewise, the lack of love between Merope and Riddle did not itself doom Tom to be evil. Growing up in a household where there is no love can have negative effects, yes (as I will get to in a minute), but those are the result of parental behaviors and long-term exposure to a neglectful or emotionally negative environment, NOT to the simple *fact* of lack of love. Claiming otherwise is to claim that any child born of rape, or even of a loveless marriage of convenience, tends inherently towards evil. I'm sure you can understand the ickiness of that idea (and I don't think you are deliberately suggesting that, but taking the text at face value here leads to this conclusion).

I do agree that Tom didn't have a choice to be "evil," or rather to be a psychopath - for that is what he comes across to me as being. Psychopaths are created, not born, and they are made VERY young. The environment a very, very small child (infant to a couple years old) grows up in seems to be hugely determinant here. And Tom did spend the entirety of his childhood in a, at best, cold and neglectful situation at the orphanage. Such an environment, combined with individual personality traits, could lead Tom to develop into a clinical psychopath long before he had any ability to choose.

[oryx_leucoryx]

If we want to argue about RL personality, then there is very likely some genetic component in becoming a psychopath, in that some children have the make-up that causes them to respond in such a way to certain environmental conditions while other kids under the same conditions respond otherwise. What makes it even harder is that kids who have a greater chance to eventually become psychopaths are extremely hard to parent and they tend to have a destructive effect on those who try - they tend to come from broken homes because they can break any home - parents without sufficient support can't cope with the stress. But at least some of such kids do respond to very consistent discipline (no loopholes, no leeway) - if there are adults around who can supervise them closely at all times and be coordinated about enforcing the rules.

So are psychopaths born or made? Both components play a part.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/I agree with you about everything in fact other than the idea that Tom was "born evil" because of his descent from Slytherin and the lack of love between Riddle and Merope - much though Dumbledore and the narrative voice want us to believe that he was "born evil" for precisely the reasons you mention./

Oh, I don't actually agree with Dumbledore and the narrative voice about the nature of Tom's evil; I was just stating what we saw in the text. ^^

/1) it's not clear that Salazar was, in fact, evil. On the one hand, the situation then was somewhat different than that of Harry's day and Salazar may have had good reasons to distrust Muggleborns (distrust is explicitly spelled out in canon as his attitude, not hatred)./

Yes, but considering the fact that everything that goes wrong at Hogwarts can be traced back to him (the pureblood mania - however understandable Salazar's concerns about Muggle-borns may have been - allegedly started with him, his heir attacked students with his own monster and grew up to be a genocidal Dark Lord who supposedly follows his ancestor's obsessive beliefs, etc.), I don't think that we're supposed to view him in a favorable light. Especially not when his House is always viewed unfavorably.

/Claiming otherwise is to claim that any child born of rape, or even of a loveless marriage of convenience, tends inherently towards evil. I'm sure you can understand the ickiness of that idea/

Oh, of course. I find that idea to be unfair, offensive, insensitive, and revolting in the extreme. But didn't JKR say in some interview that Voldemort's parents never loved each other and that was one reason why he turned out evil? I don't remember exactly.

I just dislike the whole "born evil" trope in fiction in general. I mean, you could make the case that there are indeed people like that in real life, who are born amoral, but the idea still makes me uncomfortable. It's just so determinist and judgmental and doesn't allow for any change. "Oh, he was born evil, so he is evil and will forever be evil, and there's nothing you or he can do to change that." Not only is it a simplistic and often flat characterization of a villain, it's also morally displeasing, because it serves as a convenient justification for the hero to just do all sorts of terrible things to the villain with no remorse. "The villain's evil through and through, you can't make him change his ways, so just forget that he's human and have at him!"

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I found DD here to be utterly abhorrent. I agree with all your points, Merope was ill, cold and starving, had absolutely no resources and passed away an hour after childbirth. There was no CHOICE to die, she was obviously weak and couldn't survive the ordeal. What kind of despicable man blames a woman for dying after giving birth?!

What, so if Lily had been ill and destitute while pregnant with Harry, she would have automatically survived a difficult childbirth through the strength of her moral fiber?

Absolutely, she's a Gryffindor, after all! Triumph over adversity is hardwired in her DNA, don'cha know?

Personally, I think Merope- while having screwed up majorly and done bad things herself (if we take that love potion story as fact)- was the more admirable of the two women. She fought against her own failing body to get her child somewhere he could be cared for. Lily just screamed a lot and was absolutely useless.

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

He does indeed say not to judge her, but:

"She wouldn't even stay alive for her son?"
Dumbledore raised his eyebrows. "Could you possibly be feeling sorry for Lord Voldemort?"
"No," said Harry quickly, "but she had a choice, didn't she, not like my mother —"
"Your mother had a choice too," said Dumbledore gently. "Yes, Merope Riddle chose death in spite of a son who needed her, but do not judge her too harshly, Harry. She was greatly weakened by long suffering and she never had your mother's courage..."

Honestly, so many things wrong with this, it's just so repugnant, I can't even. I really hate Dumbledore’s attitude to her- ‘oh, she wasn’t as brave as Lily, she chose to die like the selfish coward she is’. O.o

Never mind that the girl’s been abused for years, probably mental ill, and wound up starving on the streets in the cold of winter without shelter while pregnant. Yet she still managed to drag her weak, malnourished body to a place where her baby had a chance of survival, instead of just curling up in a corner to die without giving her child a second thought, because that’s how strong her maternal instinct was.

Oh, yeah, she had a choice, sure! She did the best she could for her child in her situation. Lily? Well...she screamed a lot and uttered pitiful pleas for his life. (seriously, you know Voldy's there 'coz your son is prophesied as the only threat to his reign of evil and you ask for his life to be spared? In what universe do you think that would actually work?) Didn't try apparating or breaking a window and jumping out (that worked for Harry and Hermione) or anything useful at all!

/ranting.

[condwiramurs.livejournal.com]

Arg omg yes. Word. WTF she CHOSE to die? Sorry, no. Sometimes people just DIE, Dumbledore, because their body simply cannot work anymore. It's not necessarily a CHOICE.

Not to mention the ickiness of implying that the series' Incarnation of Ultimate Evil psychopathic villain's evilness is really his mother's fault for being "weak." Blame it all on the supposedly weak-willed woman, yeah, there's a new strategy that no-one in history has ever thought of.

Except the whole original sin, apple in the garden thing. And the whole women-are-the-devil thing. And... and...

Sorry, feeling ranty today.

In defense of Lily (not that I often find myself in this position) it's not clear that she did in fact know that they were targeted because of a Prophecy supposedly naming Harry as the one to defeat Voldie. It's not made explicit that DD ever told the Potters exactly why they had to hide, beyond the fact that Voldemort was targeting them for *some* reason. Given that they were Order members and had, supposedly, somehow already personally defied him thrice, it's not that unlikely that Voldie would put them on his hit list. They may have just supposed that Voldie finally got to their names, but DD luckily got the info in time to warn them.

On the other hand, they might have known and Lily was just being stupid in a moment of desperation. Which is rather understandable. Doesn't make her really match the proud heroine we were led to expect, but for a 21-year-old faced with a psychopath who's killed her husband and clearly wants to kill her baby, it's not unsurprising.

No excuse for either of them not having their WANDS on them at all times, however. Or not having a bloody escape route planned. Don't they know how to APPARATE? Or fly brooms?

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

For whatever it's worth, Hagrid didn't know that Voldemort had been targeting Harry, even ten years later:

"You-Know-Who killed 'em. An' then -- an' this is the real myst'ry of the thing -- he tried to kill you, too. Wanted ter make a clean job of it, I suppose, or maybe he just liked killin' by then. But he couldn't do it.

Not that Hagrid is someone that you'd tell secrets to, so it doesn't surprise me that he wouldn't've known back in 1981, but it strikes me as odd that Hagrid still didn't know later. I would kind of have expected that to have been part of the whole Harry Potter legend, but apparently it wasn't.

That doesn't really tell us much about what Lily and James knew, but it's kinda interesting. I'm not sure we've discussed that before... does that make sense with the theory that Dumbledore deliberately fostered the idea that Harry defeated Voldemort, etc.?

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

No worries about the rant, I feel the same way as well. *squish*

Another annoying thing is how Dumbles values Lily's way of dying as more worthy than Merope's when afaik, Lily had NO IDEA that the way she died was going to have some magical love shield that would defend Harry. When I was younger and still had faith in JKR's plot-building abilities, I thought Lily had cast some sort of enchantment or tapped into some instinctive sort of magic. But as we see in DH, it was just helpless shrieking. That there was a magical protective thing was pure chance, she didn't set out to cast anything. So I really don't see anything to praise her for.

Harry...I'd have more respect for him dying for everyone if it wasn't for the fact that he got to cheat death. I mean, wtf kind of writing is that- how does his sacrifice protect everyone when he gets to come back to life and there wasn't any sacrifice at all? Technically, what got sacrificed was Voldy's soul, I think? The Horcrux in his scar? So he sacrificed a fragment of someone else's soul, the same guy who was trying to kill everyone, and that protected them from him? I don't get it...

Yeah, I just laugh when people talk about how brave Harry is in choosing to come back to life- I'm sure there are tons of other people who would also choose to live if they got the chance! Harry died once and saw there was nothing to be afraid of, it was all peaceful and serene and awesome, lots of validation from his fave mentor, like, what's so horrible about dying? If it was like in Buffy, where it seemed like she'd end up in some demon dimension suffering horribly forever, that'd be brave, but Harry has to choose between heaven and going back to live happily ever after with Ginny. HMM, DILEMMA. Either option is great! And forsaking the former option doesn't mean it's closed to him forever, he just gets to put it off til later! So...the hero thing? Not seeing it.

/rant.

Re: Lily and the prophecy. Okay, I'm ashamed of myself, I for some reason assumed she would know about it, 'coz why else were they in hiding? You're right, though, DD might not have share that info with them. In which case her pleaing is actually kind of...yeah. If she thought Voldy was there to kill her and she's trying to be like, 'Kill me if you have to but not Harry', then that's cool. Although it'd've sucked if Harry just starved to death or something, with nobody to feed him.

Anyway, I reread that passage again and...I'm not sure now. I still think Lily's an idiot- Voldy hears her screaming from upstairs, like, jeez, shut your mouth and hide. Also, WHY NOT BREAK A WINDOW AND JUMP OUT, if for some reason, you can't apparate- and she keeps saying 'not Harry, kill me instead' so it sounds like she knows he's there for Harry in particular. Otherwise why that phrasing? INSTEAD, as though trading her life for his, which suggests she doesn't think he's there for her... y/n? Am I reading too much into this?

Also, the house seems pretty large if there's an upstairs- why did she hold onto him and then futilely drop him in his crib? Why not hide him under the sink or in a cupboard? Surely 'out of sight, out of mind' would be best with Harry?

No excuse for either of them not having their WANDS on them at all times, however. Or not having a bloody escape route planned. Don't they know how to APPARATE? Or fly brooms?

WORD. James sprinting out to 'hold him off' without a wand...just...he may as well have turned into a stag and tried to gore Voldy with his antlers or something!

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

No excuse for either of them not having their WANDS on them at all times, however. Or not having a bloody escape route planned. Don't they know how to APPARATE? Or fly brooms?


I think that falls under the same logic as is used in Horror Movies - Teenagers will always end up at a out of the way location where some serial killer will suck out their intelligence on how to escape.

or it the failing of JKR's Dramatic Author Narative story. The actual backstory is not being as Dramatic when we actually get to read How it really went. We heard about the attack on Lily and James previously in the books, but actually reading it they come out as a little bit lame.

I always wondered why they chose that area to live/hide/whatever - If it had been me I would have considered going out of the UK, changing my name and attempting to live as a non-magical family. They moved into a known area for magical people. It almost seems like they were living in there own home but surely they moved to a new location but I can't remember exactly now about the house or location.