COS Chapter Fourteen: "Cornelius Fudge"
Dec. 17th, 2010 07:43 pm![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslock* The WW seems to have a really inconsistent attitude towards criminal justice. On the one hand, their punishments are often extremely excessive (yes, let’s lock people up surrounded by depression-inducing, soul-devouring monsters for petty theft); on the other, they can be ridiculously weak when the plot demands it (murder? Well, you won’t be able to come to Hogwarts anymore. Although we will give you a job for life as Gamekeeper in the very same school which you terrorised with your monster).
* “Riddle does sound like Percy – who asked him to grass on Hagrid, anyway?” Apologies in advance for this little rant-ette, but WTF? Seriously, W – T – F? As far as Ron knows, Hagrid’s just killed someone, and he thinks Tom shouldn’t tell anyone? I’ll freely admit that I never got this whole “no snitching” rule in school stories, but this just seems ridiculous. So it’s better to let people die than tell a teacher? Really? Ron’s being really hypocritical, too, unless he’d been planning to sit on his arse and do nothing once he got proof that Draco was the Heir of Slytherin.
* Also, note how Harry says that he doesn’t blame Tom “for wanting to stay here”, rather than, I don’t know, wanting to save someone’s life.
* Choosing the subjects that “could affect [their] whole future” at the age of twelve seems a bit early, really.
* Jolly nice of Percy to offer to help Harry like that. If I were in his situation, I’d be quite grateful.
* Note how Percy says “non-magical community”, instead of using some demeaning slur like “muggle” or “mudblood”. Bloody pinko! It’s no wonder he ended up going bad!
* For all that wizards think of Muggle Studies (Christ, what a patronising name) as a “soft option”, they seem to have real difficulty learning anything about Muggles. Apart from the Malfoys, for some reason, who seem to know loads.
* “But the only thing Harry felt he was really good at was Quidditch.” I’m sort of half-tempted to give JKR a bit of credit for acknowledging Harry’s general uselessness, but she blows it for me by avoiding making Harry ever have to work hard and improve. Having difficulty? Don’t worry, Hermione will sort it out for you!
* Did Ginny really need to go so far as to rip Harry’s books apart in her quest to find the diary? What, was she worried that he might have hidden it somewhere inside one of the pages? Oh well, I suppose property damage is OK if it’s in service of a higher cause, like keeping your crush on someone secret.
* No, Hermione, you clearly have a lot of learning to do. It’s not true that only a Gryffindor could do it. Gryffindors never do anything wrong, and, if it seems like they have done, it’s because they were possessed and made to do it by a Slytherin. Don’t worry, though, you’ll learn soon enough.
* Pity Hermione doesn’t feel the need to tell Harry and Ron about her suspicions. Still, this secrecy is quite consistent for her character, so I forgive JKR for it.
* “Yes, perhaps you’d better come too, Weasley.” Even when his best(-ish) friend has just been attacked, Ron’s still an afterthought behind Harry Potter.
* I’m surprised Fred and George don’t slip laxatives into the Hogwarts water supply, thereby ensuring that teachers are constantly rushed off their feet escorting students to the bathrooms.
* Erm, Lee, given that only four people have been attacked so far, the fact that the Slytherins are all fine isn’t exactly that surprising.
* Trust George to try and spin the worst possible interpretation on Percy’s behaviour.
* Yeah, that’s right, all this stuff’s coming from a Slytherin, so it’s OK to chuck them out. Just like a lot of international terrorism is carried out by Islamic groups, so it’s OK to throw every Muslim in prison. Sure, the vast majority will be innocent, but you’ll also get the guilty ones, and retribution’s the most important function of the justice system, right?
* Harry and Ron are so busy plotting, they don’t notice Lee Jordan taking out his copy of The Protocols of the Elders of Slytherin, which conclusively demonstrates that Severus Snape is trying to take over the wizarding world using his control of the international media.
* Does Hagrid not realise that pointing his crossbow at anyone who comes knocking just makes him look like the sort of violent person who would set a monster on the school?
* Cornelius Fudge is indeed wearing “a strange mixture of clothes”. Does the gene that gives them magical powers also give them appalling dress sense or something?
* Of course, Dumbledore could probably come up with quite a good defence of Hagrid if he tried. For some reason, though, he again chooses to frame his defence by assuming that Dumbledore’s trust should be good enough proof of innocence for anyone, without bothering to explain just why it is he thinks he’s innocent.
* “‘Yeh can’ take Dumbledore away!’ yelled Hagrid… ‘Take him away, an’ the Muggle-borns won’ stand a chance! There’ll be killin’s next!’” Erm, Hagrid, what exactly has DD done so far to prevent the attacks? Or is he saying that the Heir of Slytherin must be so in awe of the headmaster that he’s holding back from killing people? Because there’s actually no evidence than Dumbledore’s presence is doing anything to prevent the attacks or keep the students safe. If anything, Lord V probably knows that DD won’t do anything to stop the attacks – after all, he didn’t do anything last time…
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Date: 2010-12-20 01:21 am (UTC)According to Harry Potter Wiki ( http://harrypotter.wikia.com/wiki/Lily_Evans), which in turn cites http://www.jkrowling.com/textonly/en/news_view.cfm?id=80 , it didn't:
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Date: 2010-12-20 01:56 am (UTC)Suppose the mystery is why You-Know-Who never tried to get 'em on his side before
Whoever writes that wiki has no better grasp of canon than JKR.
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Date: 2010-12-20 02:59 am (UTC)*sigh*
Since I'm so new to the fandom, I'm insecure regarding my own memory/theories, so I tend to rely on what seem to be legit info sites...
I didn't check out the Wiki's JKR reference before posting, when I just clicked on it the site it brings up has absolutely NOTHING regarding that supposed Hagrid quote! :-/
But in doing further searches, apparantly at one time people were convinced that the Potters turning down Voldie's invitation was one of the "Three Defiances" they were said to have shown towards Voldie...
And apparently JKR had something up on her site at one time, only available by answering questions and gathering enough prizes to enter the "secret chamber" where she'd posted what she claimed was a section that was originally going to be in Book 1, but which she scrapped.
I found a site ( http://www.thefinalhorcrux.com/forum/showthread.php?t=598&page=3 ) where someone had gotten into JKR's secret chamber and posted the section in question:
Doesn't say anything about Voldie recruiting the Potters, but if that indeed was part of JKR's original rough draft for Book 1, then it seems she meant for James & Lily to not be as super good (or seem that way) as the final books made them out to be...and if that was the case, then they may indeed have seemed worthwhile DE recruits at one time.
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Date: 2010-12-20 05:36 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-20 06:15 am (UTC)The Harry Potter Lexicon, better than JKR? (LOL!)
There is no telling what JKR intended where the voldie tempts the Potters - if JKR just ferried off her chapters to an editor without doing multiple rereads then it's very likely she really doesn't know what they took out. Especially if she's admitted to not reading the books.
Wasn't there a bit hoopla about Half-Blood Prince when that was officially published. I seem to remember something about in the American version part of Dumbeldores speech to Draco had more to it than from other versions or something like that. It was apparently something that was supposed to be ommited but the editors/betas let it slip in or something like that?
So, there is no telling how much story is left on the editors cutting room floor. We could possibly have a whole mountain of info waiting there. And if JKR isn't as involed as she should be with that process, she may not even be aware of just what has and hasn't been included in the story.
However I'm pretty sure it's hard to remember 'everything' over 7 books, but still, sometimes I just want to bite something really hard when I read some of the interview answers.
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Date: 2010-12-22 09:39 pm (UTC)It's in the first edition of the American release, but I gather it's been removed in later printings.
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Date: 2010-12-22 11:34 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-22 11:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-23 03:51 pm (UTC)It makes you wonder what else the editors might have taken out along the way.
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Date: 2010-12-20 05:49 am (UTC)I also like that the lexicon on a lot of the info will give you a little book and chapter reference it's usually written like (DH5). I can't say everything on the lexicon is 100% full proof info.
A while back I did find a place where lexicon had Fudge was married and if I remember rightly when I saw it, it gave a chapter reference so I went back to read it but I couldn't find anything about Fudge's spouce or him having one - so I still dont' know where that reference comes from or if it's correct that Fudge is married.
But at least Lexi usually gives the chapter and book refence on a lot of stuff so you can go back and read where the lexicon is getting it's info.
I didn't even know about that rough draft story from book one!
JKR makes it sound like just another magical process to make the stone. Hermione is talking about it being just 'complicated' magic and it's written in a book she's read.
If it was just a case of a talented wizard doing complcated magic then wouldn't Voldemort have made his own stone or tried to? If it's already written down in a book that sort of means anyone could go through the process and make it.
It's also interesting that she's connecting the stone to Lily and James. I wonder where she was going with that? What sort of connection was she trying to make there.
In my own fanfic I sort of have the stone as a unique thing and the only reason Nicholas was able to make it was because of 1 unique item that nobody else would have access to. To me that is the only way it makes sense for the stone to exist and what makes it so special. If it's just something anyone can make if they are talented, then to me Voldie would have made his own already or stolen theirs.
Outside my fanfic I sort of wonder why Voldemort never tried to get at Flamel - in the above version JKR has him already dead but we know in actual canon he was alive.
On, so I'm getting into my own fanfic zone here wiht some of my theory but I do wonder how did Dumbledore get ahold of the stone or why was it in the bank? Because Dumbledore seemed inclined to want to get rid of the stone, but it was Flamels apparently at the time the first book starter.
It makes me sort of wonder if Voldemort and Quirrell may have attempted to take it from the Flamels and thus Flamel may have contacted Dumbledore for help - and thats why the stone is at the bank or was moved to the bank and then Dumbledore decided for whatever reason, or knew that 'they' were going to try to steal it from the bank. So Dumbledore is moving the stone to Hogwarts, in a very dumbly elaborate scheme. But it does make me wonder where Flamel was in all this, why/how did he give over the stone to Dumbledore, what caused him to let it out of his grasp (so to speak) and allow Dumbledore control?
I play all that out in my fanfic, but I do wonder sometimes what was JKR's actual idea on the stone/flamel/dumbledore.
If the above is her actual first draft then it seems more complicated having Lily and James involved - how exactly they would play into it would be a curious fanfic to read.
And me! I had a whole different character involved in the stone being moved to the bank - I never made any connection whatsoever with james and Lily to the stone.
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Date: 2010-12-20 06:49 am (UTC)As for Albus' involvement, his chocolate frog card describes him as a research partner of Flamel's. Obviously not in the making of the Stone, as Albus is many centuries younger than Nicolas, but maybe something else. swythyv once proposed that they developed the panacea together, and the need to hide the stone (and later destroy it) meant the panacea was no longer available - leading to the deaths of several members of the Black family as well as Abraxas Malfoy and others in an outbreak of dragon pox in 1991-2. Of course the shared research could have been about anything at all. So Albus may have been close to Nicolas.
We do not know who owned the vault in which the Stone had been kept until July 31st 1991. Was it Flamel's vault? Hogwarts'? Albus' private vault? We know the Stone was the only thing in it.
What I want to know is when did Tom get the idea to steal the Stone and how. Did he know of its existence beforehand? Or was this something Albus made sure Quirrell would find out about (by having Hagrid be the one to retrieve the Stone, he was sure to blab about it, or by asking Quirrell to prepare his part of the obstacle course) - used as bait? Because Tom may have had completely different plans for Quirrell before the Stone came into play.
I mean, scenario 1 is: Quirrell/Tom had been planning to get the Stone, Albus sent Hagrid to retrieve it in the nick of time.
Scenario 2: Tom had completely different plans. To distract him, Albus told Hagrid to retrieve the Stone, and told 6 staff members (4 Heads of houses, Hagrid and Quirrell) to make protections. Team Quirrell-Tom decided Quirrell should go and steal it before it was placed under the Hogwarts protections. I'm not even sure when the teachers made their protections except that Fluffy was there by early September. The Stone may have been in Albus' rooms for a while until everything was prepared.
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Date: 2010-12-20 02:12 pm (UTC)Since I can't tell what JKR intended, for my own theory, the making of the stone does involve the soul, well, in a round about way. The thing I had questioned on the stone, if Flamel gained both self-knowledge and a level of purity, then it makes me question why he would keep it to himself. Why not share it with others. In my fanfic I also give a reason, he could only share it with himself and his wife because it wouldn't really work for anyone else.
The chocolate frog card says; and his work on alchemy with his partner, Nicholas Flamel.
It doesn't really say what they did and Albus is very much Nicholas' junion. It'd be interesting to read how and why Nicholas would have Albus, this very young wizard as his partner.
Okay, this is something else in my fanfic and is why/how Voldemort found out about the stone (Okay I haven't revealed all of this idea in story, only part of it but I think someone could put it together if they tried). what sort of made sense to me is that the Flamel's were in hiding. Nicholas Flamel the real person is from france. While JKR canon has him living in Devon or some such place in England. So I wondered why?
My idea I used is, in the distant past, after nicholas had created the stone, people did try to take it from him. So at some point all his friends and family would be dead and him and his wife still alive. So due to the stone they went into hiding.
There are duel reasons for it, because of the stone and the connection to another character in my story but either way they decided to hide themselves to protect the stone and their life together.
For the most part after many many years, nobody really knew they existed. Most people in the magical world eventually just though they were legend - except for the obscure reference like in the book in the restricted section of Hogwarts it was sort of questionable that the Flamels were ever really real or that the stone was real. It was sort of something people might comment about but nobody except Albus really had first hand knowledge of.
Well that all changed when Dumbledore's chocolate frog card comes out with Nicholas' name on it. Now, maybe most people/kids wouldn't really pay attention to it. But Quirrell did pay attention to it, enough that when Voldemort and Quirrell met, he got the info about the Chocolate frog, Because at the time, Voldemort/Tom might have either never had the card, never paid attention to the card or even as a student the cards did not exist and as a adult he didn't care about them.
So, Quirrell ends up running into Voldemort and takes this information with him, maybe Qurrell even has the chocolate frog card with him, he might have read the book in the restricted section as well, getting that info. Maybe Voldie knew enough that he had heard the name Nicholas Flamel before, but like so many other people he just assumed it was a legend and that the stone wasn't really real. But when he saw the info on the card/or took the info out of Quirrells mind - he put two and two together and realized it was real, that the stone did exist and thats why he returned to England with Quirrell.
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Date: 2010-12-20 05:19 pm (UTC)Obviously neither is familiar with Full Metal Alchemist (anime or manga), in which the process of making a Philosopher Stone shows that the stone is akin to Soylent Green! (bwahahahah!) =:-o
It's also interesting that she's connecting the stone to Lily and James. I wonder where she was going with that? What sort of connection was she trying to make there.
Well what she ended up with was DD being friends with Flamel, and Flamel deciding to give (surrender?) the stone to Dumbles. But in hindsight, after 7 books of DD "receiving" things like James' invisibility cloak, Grindewald's Elder Wand, etc., it makes one question just how willingly Flamel handed the stone over.
Perhaps JKR was originally going to have DD give it to James to keep in his family's vault for whatever reason, but I find it hard to believe that Dumbles would have let it out of his grasp once he got his hands on it.
So that DOES leave the question open as to what James' and/or Lily's motivations would have been for obtaining the stone (not to mention HOW they obtained it), and the corner JKR painted herself into by having the Potters possess the stone, then how would Voldie been able to kill them?
no subject
Date: 2010-12-21 12:23 am (UTC)Ooh. Love your icon.
I think the purity aspect was why she wanted the Potters associated with the stone but, as she found when she tested out the idea with her characters, it made them look like thieves. Idea scrapped. (Too bad she didn't work through some other questionable ideas the same way, it seems to work for her.)
Dumbledore was supposedly such an intelligent wizard that he was corresponding with all sorts of great wizards and witches while he was still in Hogwarts. I expect that's when he got involved with Flamel. They didn't need to work on the stone together to be partners in alchemical research. Again, reference to alchemy and Flamel, tying Dumbledore to purity - the "epitome of goodness." :P
no subject
Date: 2010-12-21 12:55 am (UTC)Exactly.
So at least according to FMA, whoever attempts to make a Philosopher's Stone is the farthest from highly, positively spiritual as you can get...
Ooh. Love your icon.
Thanks...I made it a couple of years ago. Take it if you like. :-)
I think the purity aspect was why she wanted the Potters associated with the stone but, as she found when she tested out the idea with her characters, it made them look like thieves.
Also, JKR ended up with the implication that DD only got his hands on the stone a relatively short time before Book 1 began; in theory, Flamel could have given him the stone years, or even decades, before, but that idea doesn't really stand up to scrutiny, because WHY would have Flamel surrendered the stone that early on? And wouldn't Voldie have gone after the stone during WizWar1 if it was just sitting in a Gringotts vault at that time?
So not only did JKR have a moral character dilemma with the storyline of the Potters having the stone in their possession, but a logistical one, too -- because WHY would Flamel have given up the stone back then, to ANYONE? And if the Potters had the stone sitting in their own vault, how would Dumbles have gotten his hands on it after their death?
So the easiest answer was to eliminate the Potter storyline, and just have the stone somehow be in Dumbles possession at the beginning of Book 1.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-21 02:19 am (UTC)If he'd had the cloak for some reason - if he'd borrowed it for an Order operation against the DEs, if James had left it with him instead of his borrowing it, he might have come off looking at least a little better than he did at the end.
Thanks, snagged the icon!
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Date: 2010-12-21 12:33 pm (UTC)The reason for keeping the cloak or asking for it is....lame, it's basicly just because he wanted it.
Why the hell would James let him borrow it anyway, they wouldn't even take Dumbledore as secret keeper! Yet James at the moment when he'd need the cloak the most decides to let someone borrow it.
I agree that if JKR had at least given Dumbledore a better reason for having the cloak it would have been easier to accept why he had it.
Instead Dumbledore looks like some crazy collector who will do anything to get that last item for his collection.
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Date: 2010-12-21 03:25 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2010-12-21 08:29 pm (UTC)IDK, the way JKR has all Gryffindors fanwank Dumbles, I think Twinkly could have just said to James "Oh, that looks like an interesting cloak, can I borrow it to study it in more depth?", and James would have drunk the Kool Aid and handed it over...
:-/
(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2010-12-21 08:21 pm (UTC)It's rather more than that.
The legend states that the person who possesses all 3 of the Deathly Hallows can basically rule the world. Dumbles knew he already had the Elder Wand in his possession, suddenly he finds someone with what seems to be THE Invisibility Cloak.
So what if the owner was in hiding with his wife and child, in fear for their lives, and the Cloak could have been more useful to them than to Dumbles? Dumbles own curiosity, at the very least, was more important than the Potters' safety.
*Possibly* Dumbles may have thought that if the Cloak remained with the Potters, but Voldie still succeeded in killing them, the Cloak may have fallen into Voldie's hands...therefore he may have thought that taking possession of it was a precautionary measure...
But the Dumbles JKR presents us with in Book 7 is too cunning, too manipulative, and too self-serving for me to buy any allegedly altruistic motive to his taking the Cloak.
So he already had the Elder Wand, and now he had the Invisibility Cloak. All he needed was the DH stone...is it just a coincidence that he "just happened" to get his hands on Flamel's Philosopher Stone sometime after the Potters' deaths? Could he have thought at one time that Flamel's stone may have been the DH stone?
no subject
Date: 2010-12-21 08:42 pm (UTC)(no subject)
From:(no subject)
From:no subject
Date: 2010-12-21 03:23 pm (UTC)Not if he did not expect to lose his body. He believed himself immortal already. More immortal than he could ever be with the Stone, because he was even AK-proof.
no subject
Date: 2010-12-22 04:02 pm (UTC)GOF ch 28, when Crouch is rambling, at some point he talks about him, his wife and son planning to attend a concert with Mr and Mrs Fudge. If this is a true memory then at least at some point before Barty Jr's arrest Fudge had a wife.
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Date: 2010-12-22 11:27 pm (UTC)Well apparently it's true the lexicon IS better than JKR on canon!
Unfortunately I don't believe I'm going to be using Fudge in my fanfic again so I can't make use of the info for any purpose story wise.
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Date: 2010-12-20 05:11 am (UTC)I find it interesting that Voldie tried to recruit them before they left Hogwarts. I wish the wiki would give book/chapter references like the lexicon does so I can actually go back and read Hagrids comment.
Also the Wiki makes reference to Lily's murder that Severus asked Voldie to spare Lily being the reason for the whole damn magical protection. I think it was discussed on here a while back...about the fact that if it was not for Severus, Lily would have never actually had the opportunity to make the sacrifice in the first place. That Voldie would have never said step aside at all if it wasn't for Severus' request.
I know the sacrifice was big and I get what is being said about this wouldn't have been the firs time Voldie made the offer for her to join them. I have no problem that it may have come before, for her to join the DE - I'm sort of thinking that I wanted more conversation/dialogue than what went on and I do feel like there might have or should have been more than just him telling her to step aside. I would have imagined him reminding her of the offer, he might have said the offer is still in effect...etc. If he was really serious about recruiting her I would think he'd have giving it one more try.
And on the kidnapping part, he could have still kidnapped her if he were determined to do that. I think he was more interested in killing her. Hell, he could have just magically knocked her out, killed the baby and then carted her off. She wasn't really stopping him just standing there in front of the crib. She wasn't fighting him. So if his itention was to kidnap her, her just standing there didn't prevent him from doing anything. He had a wand, she didn't, his options were far greater than hers at that moment. He could have done anything to her and it doesn't seem like she could have stopped him.