More on Albus Dumbledore_

mary-j-59.livejournal.com posting in

Hi, everyone. This will be quite short, but something sunnyskywalker said in a previous discussion rang bells with me. What if these books aren't quite what we think they are?

I am thinking of an interview with Rowling some years back, when she answered a question about her faith with words to this effect: "I struggle to keep believing". If anyone has the exact quote, I'd be grateful!

Because, you see, that is quite moving to me. It is hard to keep believing in God when you witness truly evil things happening to people you love. At least, you can't go on believing, like a child, in the wise old man with a beard who will make everything all right. That's so obviously not what God is.*

But, in these books, we have a wise old man with a beard. And he is very, very imperfect. Rowling's depiction of Dumbledore does, indeed, seem like an indictment of sorts.

But Dumbledore is obviously not God. He is just the headmaster of a wizarding school. Harry, despite some of the imagery surrounding him, is just as obviously not Jesus. Who is he? As I said on my blog some time back, he is an everyman character - specifically, he's Percival, the fool.

And - I think there is some kind of sense there, lurking deep down. I can't quite put my finger on it, but sometimes I think it's there.

Because, if there is a Christ figure at all in these books (but I don't think there is), that is definitely Severus Snape, in spite of his obvious imperfections. If Harry is Percival, Snape is the Fisher King; the wounded king of a wounded land. And what heals the Fisher King? Compassion and curiosity. Percival is supposed to ask a question. We all know that Harry never does that, don't we?

But, if Snape is the Fisher King and Harry Percival, who on earth is Dumbledore? Because he's not God. Not consciously, anyway. And - it's interesting that one of his names is Percival. What I'm getting at is that I sometimes think that the 'lost boys' of Hogwarts are all facets of him.

Rowling is playing with some very powerful archetypes in these stories, I think, and that's why we are still struggling to find meaning in them.

My two cents!

* As those who know me know, I'm a devout Catholic. To me, God is nothing like Dumbledore.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

oryx_leucoryx

And - it's interesting that one of his names is Percival. What I'm getting at is that I sometimes think that the 'lost boys' of Hogwarts are all facets of him.

I'll need help with name meanings. Is Severus, who died in the place where he once was once nearly eaten by a werewolf somehow Wulfric? Is Tom somehow Brian? What does the name 'Brian' mean?

The name Tom (or the full Helenic version, Thomas) is derived from the Hebrew T'om (there's supposed to be a very short vowel between the T and the o) which means 'twin'. And while younger, he is Albus' twin (though he presents himself as Harry's twin in COS).

From:

sharaz-jek.livejournal.com

What does the name 'Brian' mean?

According to Wikipedia, probably "high" or "noble", which fits Tom's pretensions (and Albus').

From:

600ants.livejournal.com

Id say not to take these things too seriously. Most of the names were chosen for the first book, obviously, and by then, the dark, man, dark, and deep, man, deep masterplan simply didn't exist and most of them are just lame puns - Severus is Sverus simply because JK chose to go with Latin names, and needed one that would "fit Snape's personality". It sounds like "severe" and the meaning is "stern", which is IMO quite far from Wulfric (a combination of Wulf=wolf and ric=power).

Brian, if Im not mistaken, comes from old Celtic "bre" = "hill". By extention, you can say it means "high" and by even more extension "noble", though I doubt this was the original meaning of the name.

From:

oryx_leucoryx

Well, since we know COS was originally supposed to be named after the Half-Blood Prince I think the fan theories about Severus being named after Septimius Severus - who defeated Clodius Albinus - have some merit. (This Severus was praised for his politics by Machiavelli in The Prince.)

But I did not mean this as intentional by Rowling. If she managed to unintentionally write Albus as the shadow of all other 3 and she gave him 3 middle-names, one of which Mary relates to Harry, then I was wondering if it was possible to relate the other two names to Tom and Severus.

From:

600ants.livejournal.com

I think the fan theories about Severus being named after Septimius Severus - who defeated Clodius Albinus - have some merit. (This Severus was praised for his politics by Machiavelli in The Prince.)

I don't. No matter what names the characters have, people will always be able to find some “meaning” behind them – simply because basically all names have several famous namesakes in history and literature, and all the fans have to do is to find the one that mirrors the character's personality/fate/whatever best, and say that this was the one the author named the character after.

And thought I have no doubt Rowling would say, if asked, that yes, all of this was carefully planned and everything has a meaning, IMO it's mere coincidence and fans looking too hard for something that simply isn't there. The HP names are intentionally meaningful only in the “nomen omen” sense, as in “pure” Lily, “loony” Luna, “wolf” Remus etc. But that, of course, is just my opinion.

then I was wondering if it was possible to relate the other two names to Tom and Severus.

With over two thousands years of history and literary tradition it is possible to "relate" pretty much any two names you point your finger at.

From:

karentheunicorn.livejournal.com

And thought I have no doubt Rowling would say, if asked, that yes, all of this was carefully planned and everything has a meaning, IMO it's mere coincidence and fans looking too hard for something that simply isn't there.

Yes, totally. I think a lot of stuff is, she picked both names she liked and names that fit with how she wanted the characters to be seen. She picked Severus because more what the name meant than for it being associated - though she could have looked up various names and thought, Hay, yea that name fits this character even better.

One thing I found in my own study if Severus; The name Severus and the name Tobias are associated with real spiders; as those two names can be associated with a type of spider. I can't see both those names being associated with a certain animal as being just some lucky happenstance. I think due to the father and son name both having a 'spider' association has to mean something.

I always had the idea she was going for some animal symolism. And we have a history with other characters, like Remus Lupin, clearly the wolf symolism is there. How about Sirius, the dog.

So I think she has a lot of direct association as far as the names go But I'm less likely to compaire the HP series with other stories and characters directly. I'm more inclined, especially with names and characters to look at other stuff to see where she go the ideas.

From:

600ants.livejournal.com

She picked Severus because more what the name meant than for it being associated - though she could have looked up various names and thought, Hay, yea that name fits this character even better.

That's exactly how I imagine the process, too! :)

I always had the idea she was going for some animal symolism.

Absolutely. I had no idea about the spiders, by the way – do you have any more details about this?

(The cheapest of shots, but anyway: I think due to the father and son name both having a 'spider' association has to mean something. Why of course there is a pattern – the spiders are ugly as sin and most people hate them – same goes for the Snapes! :p)

Only the problem with symbolism is, that various things can be symbols of various things, so to speak. :) Take raven for an example: For Ravenclaw, there is the obvious association with the animal's well-known intelligence as well as Welsh hero Bran the Blessed. But if JKR chose a raven as Voldy's symbol instead of the Mark, fans would go like: behold – a raven, the traditional omen of death! How clever! If she used it as Peter's animagus form – look, a scavenger, how fitting to his personality! (Not to mention there's the Roman legend that says ravens were once all white, but Apollo turned them black as a punishment because they couldn't keep a secret to save their lives!) If Rowling made Dumble's pet birdie a raven instead of a phoenix, people would immediately spin theories about Odin's ravens. If there was an all-girl Quidditch team going by the name of Verwood Valkyries, I bet they would have a raven logo, because many Valkyries could transform into ravens and wouldn't that be symbolic. And don't even make me start on all the associations that link ravens to Snape! :D

So she definitely was going for some animal symbolism, that much is obvious. The problem is, if they choose so, people can read symbols in many ways different (and much more complicated) than the author intended. And same goes for the terrifyingly overestimated “name symbolism” - any name can fit any character, based on some sort of symbolism.

From:

karentheunicorn.livejournal.com

Absolutely. I had no idea about the spiders, by the way – do you have any more details about this?

I don't think I have links anymore and I don't exactly remember how I found it. I think I might have just done a search for the names Tobias and Severus at some point and ended up finding the spiders connection. I think other people have found the connection as well beside myself.

Goes to do a random search for Severus Spider and here is what I find

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Callobius_severus

http://www.ivory.org/spiders/callobius.severus.html

Unfortunately now when I search for Tobias Spider I fricking get stupid damn Spiderman movie crap because the actors name is so similar (really google I thought you updated not that long about with your search power)

Anyway, you have to look at little harder for the Tobias because now all that comes up is spiderman crap but, Tobias spiders are crab spiders from the spider family of Thomisidae.

I believe the Severus spider is also a crab spider, I'd have to go read the whole page again to remember but The thing about crab spiders is they are sometimes associated with flowers, as they hide in flowers to catch their prey.

Lily=flower.

From:

majorjune.livejournal.com

Anyway, you have to look at little harder for the Tobias because now all that comes up is spiderman crap but, Tobias spiders are crab spiders from the spider family of Thomisidae.

Some pics of genus Thomisidae:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/artour_a/2268433848/

http://www.pbase.com/rcm1840/familythomididae

I believe the Severus spider is also a crab spider,

Nope. According to Wikipedia: "Callobius is a spider genus in the family Amaurobiidae"

According to http://cru.cahe.wsu.edu/CEPublications/eb1548/eb1548.html
"Hackled Band Weavers (Family Amaurobiidae): A robust spider, Callobius severus (19mm or 3/4" diam), is a common crawl-space inhabitant of houses in western Washington. These large, impressive spiders pose no threat to humans or pets."

Looking at the various pictures, the crab spiders are rather pretty, while the weavers are plain black and I guess would be considered ugly (I actually like spiders, so it's hard for me to deem any of them ugly)...don't know if Jo took their physical characteristics into consideration when deciding on "Tobias" for the father's name and "Severus" for the son.