More on Albus Dumbledore_

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Hi, everyone. This will be quite short, but something sunnyskywalker said in a previous discussion rang bells with me. What if these books aren't quite what we think they are?


I am thinking of an interview with Rowling some years back, when she answered a question about her faith with words to this effect: "I struggle to keep believing". If anyone has the exact quote, I'd be grateful!

Because, you see, that is quite moving to me. It is hard to keep believing in God when you witness truly evil things happening to people you love. At least, you can't go on believing, like a child, in the wise old man with a beard who will make everything all right. That's so obviously not what God is.*

But, in these books, we have a wise old man with a beard. And he is very, very imperfect. Rowling's depiction of Dumbledore does, indeed, seem like an indictment of sorts.

But Dumbledore is obviously not God. He is just the headmaster of a wizarding school. Harry, despite some of the imagery surrounding him, is just as obviously not Jesus. Who is he? As I said on my blog some time back, he is an everyman character - specifically, he's Percival, the fool.

And - I think there is some kind of sense there, lurking deep down. I can't quite put my finger on it, but sometimes I think it's there.

Because, if there is a Christ figure at all in these books (but I don't think there is), that is definitely Severus Snape, in spite of his obvious imperfections. If Harry is Percival, Snape is the Fisher King; the wounded king of a wounded land. And what heals the Fisher King? Compassion and curiosity. Percival is supposed to ask a question. We all know that Harry never does that, don't we?

But, if Snape is the Fisher King and Harry Percival, who on earth is Dumbledore? Because he's not God. Not consciously, anyway. And - it's interesting that one of his names is Percival. What I'm getting at is that I sometimes think that the 'lost boys' of Hogwarts are all facets of him.

Rowling is playing with some very powerful archetypes in these stories, I think, and that's why we are still struggling to find meaning in them.

My two cents!

* As those who know me know, I'm a devout Catholic. To me, God is nothing like Dumbledore.

Comments

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

As I've suggested before, I see Dumbledore as JKR's misunderstanding of Gandalf, although there's definitely some God-analogue stuff in there, too.

Harry is therefore Frodo, and Voldemort is, er, the Dark Lord. Sauron. :-P Voldemort and Sauron were both once nicer-looking than in the time period of the books's settings.

The Potterverse Saruman is almost certainly Lucius, right down to his degraded state at the end, and his failure to successfully assist the Dark Lord.

I guess the Ministry in *general* is Denethor, although frankly, Dumbledore is Denethor-like, too.

As for Severus, I can't think of a good match. It wouldn't surprise me if *JKR* thought of him as a little like Wormtongue, or maybe Gollum, but neither actually works.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

As for Severus, I can't think of a good match. It wouldn't surprise me if *JKR* thought of him as a little like Wormtongue, or maybe Gollum, but neither actually works.

Boromir, perhaps?

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

I dunno. I was thinking that towards the end of his life, he(or his role in the story) is something like Faramir. Particularly if Dumbledore is partially Denethor. But yeah, possibly Boromir when he was younger.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Faramir never moved towards evil though. But your point about Dumbledore makes sense (except that Denethor still retains some nobility) so maybe he's a fusion of the two. Faramir on his own doesn't really have a Potterverse counterpart, I don't think.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Well, I really don't think the Potterverse maps onto Middle Earth at all well. Except in one thing: as Sam is the true hero and protagonist of LOTR, so Neville is the true hero of the Potterverse. And both are gardeners.

But - in an unwritten scene in my au "Christopher" stories, I imagined Severus/Michael watching LOTR with his family. Chris was deeply upset at Boromir's death, but his dad watched with a sort of cool detachment, understanding that yes, he was up there on that screen. Severus does seem to map onto Boromir pretty well. Especially since I read comments, after Fellowship came out, of young fans exclaiming, "Boromir's a good guy. He's a hero! I never knew that." But - as I pointed out in an earlier essay - Severus maps equally well onto Aragorn, the healer/king in hiding.

I wonder if the same thing will happen when DH part 2 comes out? Given the way the filmmakers have minimized Severus Snape and his role in the movies, I doubt it.

[quaternionworld.livejournal.com]

I could actually see him as Gollum, albeit much more sympathetic. Caught by the bad guys for information, sent back to the heroes, ends up helping the heroes, paralleled to the chief hero, said to be looking 'greedily' at things, instrumental in the defeat of the Dark Lord, saved by the hero's relative that he was an antagonist to... okay, I'm reaching here. But, still, story-wise, it fits. Except the Potterverse doesn't have a Ring, of course, which breaks the parallel a bit. (Of course Gollum doesn't repent, but IIRC Tolkien said he might have. Possibly JKR really liked the idea)

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

According to one of the Letters, Smeagol would have repented (and heroically sacrificed himself when Frodo claimed the Ring) had Sam been less hostile, which I think gives Sam's role here to either James or Sirius for driving Severus to Voldemort in the first place (poor Sam).

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

People over on the Hogwarts professor board have insisted for years that Severus = Gollum. It doesn't work, IMO. As Stratford Caldecott and Ursula LeGuin both point out, Gollum, Sam, and Frodo are almost a gestalt, with Gollum representing the id/shadow to Sam's heart/ego and Frodo's conscience/superego. Quite specifically (this was in his brilliant essay, "Over the Chasm of Fire"), Caldecott mentions that Gollum is Sam's shadow.

One could, I suppose, see Severus as Harry's shadow, but that's a stretch. And, in this quest, there is already a group of three. The person who clearly represents the id/instinct is Ron, of all people.

I don't really see him as a Gollum type, either. He's the only one of the trio without Dark Lord tendencies, for all his failings.

[quaternionworld.livejournal.com]

I'm not really sure the LoTR analogy is a good one really; it holds up for certain scenes, but then breaks up in crucial places. For example, at the climax, the id/ego/superego trio doesn't defeat the Dark Lord, Harry alone does (and unlike Frodo, he doesn't fail). And considering the (intensely weird) King's Cross chapter you might have a better case for Dumbledore/Harry/Voldemort as Frodo/Sam/Gollum in the last few chapters; certainly Voldemort *is* Harry's shadow rather explicitly, and certainly his loyalty to Dumbledore is apparently what makes Harry the hero.

That said Snape certainly is a tragic character, and his tragic nature helps the plot along tremendously (how likely is it that someone would hold a torch so long ?) and basically defines him so in that sense he fits the Gollum-role best, if you're going to do a LoTR analogy. Though that's just my two cents.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

I don't know guys,

From my POV, Voldemort fits Gollum better than Snape.

Voldemort was obsessed and yes so was Snape, but Voldemort's obsession fits Gollum's better to me.

Severus does stray from the obsession at the end, even after Dumbledore gives Severus the whole story, that Harry has to die - Severus still follows through.

Whereas Voldemort is so stupidly obsessed, in the way Gollum was. Gollum was totally mad and willing to go to such extremes that it almost seemed idiotic. Snape never seemed completely stupid or so obsessed in the way I see the Gollum character. Voldemort seems to fit that insainly obsessed nature that Gollum presents.

Plus Gollum has that whole physical transformation from man to monster -as its not just mental it's also completely how he looks as well.

Snape seems pretty much the same, the only change he has is the change of getting older, from stress or just a hard life but there isn't much alteration there in apperance.

Voldie and Gollum make a physical transformation that makes them near to unrecognizable.

Gandalf

[wolf-willow31.livejournal.com]

I see Dumbledore as JKR's misunderstanding of Gandalf

She certainly misunderstood Gandalf! In one of her pre-DH interviews, she said that Dumbledore "was not going to do a Gandalf," but then Dumbles was all over the place in DH, culminating in his final pontifications at King's Cross. (Another broken pre-DH promise! And I thought we were finally going to be rid of him!) However, when Gandalf came back, he was bigger and better. Dumbles was just the same old smarmy, overbearing, condescending, Machiavellian #*^#&]! as before.

Meanwhile, Harry "did a Gandalf" and came back from the dead, but he wasn't "bigger and better" either. In fact, he was worse than ever. He hit rock bottom when he dished out vigilante justice in the form of torture for the crime of spitting on Minerva, IMO. At least Dumbles never used the Crucio, as far as we know (maybe he flayed that baby, though). Perhaps Harry's judgment of Carrows means that he took lessons from the God of Wrath while he was "dead".

Re: Gandalf

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

However, when Gandalf came back, he was bigger and better. Dumbles was just the same old smarmy, overbearing, condescending, Machiavellian #*^#&]! as before.

Rowling has admitted to reading and being familiar with Tolkien.

Since she was in the middle of writing the series when the trilogy of LotR movies came out with all the ensuing brohaha, you can't tell me she wasn't influenced by the story, if only to try to be "different" from LotR and try to avoid comparisons.

With the result that she tried too hard and ended up writing comparable characters/scenes, if perhaps subconsciously.

Re: Gandalf

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Carrow-torture happened pre-death. However, it is the case that in his final "duel" with Voldemort he seems almost to be taunting him with his fate rather than genuinely offering help, so the sadism's definitely there.

Re: Gandalf

[wolf-willow31.livejournal.com]

Yes, if nothing else, Harry's "death" produced no improvement.