GOF Chapter 14: The Unforgivable Curses

[oryx_leucoryx]

(or - curses which can be unforgivable or gallant, depending on who casts them on whom)

My sporks may become more sporadic, nor will I be responding as much as I have so far, as Real Life is becoming more demanding. I still hope to create opportunities for discussions among you. Enjoy!

By the third day of classes Neville melted his 6th cauldron. Was that 6 in one lesson or the 6th since he started at Hogwarts? In any case, he disemboweled horned toads for detention. But since horned toads are actually some species of lizard I don't think his near nervous collapse had to do with thoughts on Trevor, just the effort of a repetitive, unpleasant task.

It isn't the fourth year running that Severus 'failed' to get the DADA job, Harry. The world was not created the day you entered Hogwarts.

Severus is avoiding 'Moody''s eyes. Is the real Moody a Legilimens? I think this avoidance supports Moody's involvement in Severus' interrogation during or after VoldieWar I.

Real-Moody's choice of textbook 'The Dark Forces: A guide to Self-Protection' is the same book Quirrell assigned to them in first year. Maybe that's the standard DADA text back from Prof Merrythought's days. At any rate, I'm wondering now about Umbridge's claim that Quirrell's lessons were age-appropriate. Well, maybe it was a very thick book, with sections for each year.

But 'Moody' is much cooler - he is not going to teach from the book at all! (He's just the opposite of Umbridge, who wanted the students to have books out and wands away.) Yes! He is going to bring them up to scratch about what wizards can do to each other! After some 12 years under Imperius, he gets to demonstrate Dark Arts in front of admiring students! Oh, how Barty is going to enjoy himself this year!

Yes, Barty, you owe one to Ron's dad. (I wonder if Arthur ever contemplated how his shenanigans assisted Voldemort's return. I wish he admitted to it when he claimed Percy was being recruited as a spy. If he gave his example of being used without his knowledge it might have gone over better than open accusation.) Barty, your retirement will be much quieter than you think.

Aha, the Ministry approves of demonstrating illegal Dark curses to 6th years like the twins. But 'Moody' claims to have Albus' approval to accelerate the curriculum a bit. Knowing Albus' attitude to the Ministry I wouldn't be surprised if that were true.

Arthur *would* know about Imperius. As one who dealt with victims of it or as a victim himself? Alas, Imperiurized!Arthur was never confirmed.

"Think it's funny, do you? You'd like it, would you, if I did it to you?" That will be put to test next lesson. Interesting that it is a DE who makes the students think of the difference in perspective between a spectator and a victim. Of course he is not just a perpetrator but a former victim himself.

"I could make it jump out of the window, drown itself, throw itself down one of your throats ..." - Thanks to Elkins for pointing out those were exactly Barty's fears - that his father would force him to commit suicide. Especially after the QWC, when it turned out he could throw the curse off and Winky was no longer around to supervise him.

I can see how practice can help recognize when one is under Imperius and therefore one needs to resist it, but how does one avoid being hit by it? Perhaps Barty was trying to give the students a false sense of security - imagining they'd be able to recognize the wand movement or the beginning of the incantation?

(BTW Ron only knew one Unforgivable Curse, and he wasn't completely certain about that one either. I guess Arthur never mentioned the other 2? Nor did, say, the AK come up in the context of how Molly's brothers died?)

It is so creepy to know that it is Barty inviting Neville to speak about the Cruciatus. Yes, it was popular once. With you. (Don't worry, it wasn't the spider Hermione was being compassionate for. Still, I like it that she opposed a teacher for an upset classmate.)

OK, in a class that includes several purebloods and at least one wizarding-raised half-blood, how come Hermione is the only one who knows about the AK?

Harry is the only one who survived the AK. Unless you count all those who managed to duck behind something or conjure a blocking object in time.

The use of any Unforgivable on a fellow human being earns you a life sentence in Azkaban. Casting them on spiders is fine. As well as on human beings who aren't your fellows, I suppose. That can sometimes be gallant, if you are the right kind of person.

Oh, how the Gryffindors enjoyed the demonstration of Dark Arts in class! A pity Hogwarts only teaches defense, really!

If Neville and Harry (and Hermione, of course) were disturbed by the class but Ron wasn't - does this mean Imperiurized!Arthur is false?

Now I'm wondering how this lesson went with the 4th year Slytherins. Did they know the names of the Unforgivables? Did they pretend not to know? Did 'Moody' taunt Draco with the Imperius Curse? Whom did he taunt with the others?

'Moody' invites Neville to tea. So spooky when one knows who that is. I wonder how Neville reflects on his interactions with 'Moody' later on, when he learns the truth. Because Harry is completely unperturbed that it was a DE who gave him the idea to become an Auror.

Moody attacks first, asks questions later. Does anyone need more evidence the real one was a Gryffindor?

Oh, Neville received a book about water plants. Which Harry will need later that year. But as Neville is mostly invisible to Harry the book won't be of any help.

Barty's act is going fine - Harry is now comparing him to Remus.

Harry and Ron are making up predictions for Divination. Oddly they actually do reflect the events of the coming year, though on a more extended schedule: danger of burns - may be about the skrewts, as Ron says, but also about the dragon Harry will face in almost 3 months. Losing a treasured possession - foreshadows the second task. Getting stabbed in the back by someone Harry thought was a friend - Ron's reaction to Harry's name emerging from the goblet, or 'Moody' turning out to be a DE who attempts to kill Harry? I'm not sure what losing a fight or a bet were about, though this is Hogwarts so there's always a lot of fighting going on, and of course this is the year of gambling.

Since Hermione isn't around to tell them off, Crookshanks is doing it for her. Why don't you go snarling at 'Moody', Crookshanks?

The twins are conspiring about blackmailing Ludo, again. (No, Crookshanks doesn't care about that either.)

Ron seems to be drowning twice. Well, he will be underwater for hours on end. Does this count? OTOH Harry dying by decapitation is a bit of a stretch - Voldmeort likes the AK, that leaves the victim's body intact.

Here comes SPEW, with 50 badges! Ron is treasurer, because he is so financially responsible and Harry is secretary, because Hermione said so.

Hermione's research revealed that elves have been enslaved for centuries, but not anything about what magic is involved to enforce their status. She came up with goals for her campaign without any input from the elves themselves, which shows just how much she believes in treating them as persons with wills of their own.

Hedwig is back with Sirius' reply. It took her under 2 weeks to fly from Surrey to whichever tropical location Sirius was staying at and back to Scotland. Sirius decides that things are serious enough to justify his return, but Harry blows it off. Doesn't he remember that Peter escaped? That Albus believed Trelawney's prophecy about him returning Voldemort to power was true? Wouldn't that put him in danger? (And not only him...)

Later we will learn that Sirius also reported about Harry's dream to Albus. So at this moment Albus knows the following: Peter left Hogwarts in June, probably on his way to Albania. Bertha Jorkins disappeared in Albania not long afterwards. Tom left Albania (must have been reported by Albus' 'sources') and must have arrived in Britain recently. Albus may already be aware of Frank Bryce's disappearance in Little Hangleton, (Or he may find out this tidbit later on.) Also, someone loyal to Voldemort was (probably) present at the QWC.

Comments

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

No, Brad, it's not irrelevant. What the others have been trying to point out to you is that you are accepting Rowling's double standards, while we are not. We can see that Severus is wrong in some of his attitudes, feelings, and even actions. But we see the same in ALL of the designated "good guys". So - why is he 'nasty" when they are not?

I'll tell you something. I first became a Snape fan as I read the end of POA. The man was clearly so traumatized, in such agony, and yet - in spite of his exaggerated threats - so moderate and even forgiving in his actions. And his pain was held up to the readers as something to laugh at.

It's just interesting to me that you completely buy into Rowling's preferred image of Snape - what she wants readers to believe about him, based on the adverbs and adjectives she throws around and what she says in her interviews. I find her books so inconsistent that I feel free to make up my own mind. And I go with what she shows us, rather than what she tells us. What does she show us?

An adolescent who has all the characteristics of an abuse survivor, making some bad decisions and getting sucked into a cult. That same young man (still an adolescent, btw) going to a trusted adult when he realizes he's endangered a loved one, and getting treated with cruelty and contempt. That young man working, all his adult life, to correct the harm he has done - as far as this is possible. We see him growing morally and emotionally, imperfect though he remains.

He is NOT especially vengeful in POA. If he were, he would have summoned the dementors himself (we know, from HBP, that he has his own method for dealing with them) and let them have a private feast while he watched. He does nothing of the kind. Of course, he IS displacing some of his own guilt onto Sirius, just as, in OOTP, Harry displaces his own guilt onto Severus. But he sincerely believes that Sirius betrayed Lily and her family, and that's why he's practically crazy in this scene. Borolin has an entire essay called "But Snape is just nasty, right", and she goes into detail about this and other scenes. So does Helen Ketcham, whose essay is brilliant - but I'm not sure it's still available anywhere.

Both of these women focus on what Snape actually does, and contrast it with what he says and the adjectives used about him. You seem to accept Rowling's Harry's eye-view- descriptions of Snape rather uncritically. It's interesting to me that you seem to take Rowling's line almost exactly in some things, while being very critical of her in others (Harry-Ginny, Hermione-Ron.)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

What the others have been trying to point out to you is that you are accepting Rowling's double standards --

No I'm not. I put forward my own personal metric for how 'true love' works. I *never* went back to the books and said "true love is Harry/Ginny, or this, or that". That's why Karen and oneandthetruth's childish we-can't-refute-him-on-Snape-so-we'll-drag-in-everyone-else-as-strawmen fails to impress.

We can see that Severus is wrong in some of his attitudes, feelings, and even actions.

Good! So can I. :-)

(Although the issue here is simply my contention that what he felt for Lily wasn't 'true love'. I'm forgetting now how the vengeance thing came in, although I stand behind that too.)

So - why is he 'nasty" when they are not?

That's a different topic, Mary. I haven't even broached the separate topics of what other people are nasty. Although you know what I think of some matters, like OBHWF. :-)

we know, from HBP, that he has his own method for dealing with them

Can you remind me where that's shown? (I love how the people here can 'research' so much from the books, connecting them together like that. A whole order of magnitude more than Rowling did or wrote, though, sadly.)

"... only hope Dumbledore's not going to make difficulties," Snape was saying. "The Kiss will be performed immediately?"

Vengeance.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

No I'm not. I put forward my own personal metric for how 'true love' works.

Lets try again, irrelevent.

I *never* went back to the books and said "true love is Harry/Ginny, or this, or that". That's why Karen and oneandthetruth's childish we-can't-refute-him-on-Snape-so-we'll-drag-in-everyone-else-as-strawmen fails to impress.

Wow, childish and fails to impress? I guess I'll have to live with a wounded heart then; so sad, love has been lost because I failed to impress. I have failed in my quest for true love. Defeated and alone in a shack, bleeding. Sad me who failed to impress madderbrad.

Can you remind me where that's shown?

No we can't, we're hoping you'll read the books yourself one day.

"... only hope Dumbledore's not going to make difficulties," Snape was saying. "The Kiss will be performed immediately?"

Vengeance.

Black and Lupin stood shoulder to shoulder, wands raised. "You should have realized," said Lupin quietly, "if Voldemort didn't kill you, we would. Good-buy, Peter."


Looks like everyone was wanting vengeance at the end of that book.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

It's when he starts teaching about Dementors in HBP. He has another method for dealing with them, and Harry disagrees with him. Of course, this being Rowling, we never find out what his method is, but he does have one. Many of us have surmised it has something to do with occlumency.

As to your last line - I would say, "yes, and? So what?"

In this scene, Severus is in the exact same position as a person whose dear friend/family member was murdered, and who wants the murderer to get the death penalty asap. Would I agree with such a person? No. Would I have compassion for them, and see where they are coming from? Yes.

And the point we have all been making, all along, is that Snape is neither nastier, nor more vengeful, than other characters in these books, including Harry and your beloved Hermione. You keep telling us that argument is irrelevant. Why? Why is it irrelevant that a poorly socialized, isolated, depressed young man is no more vengeful - especially in the case of direct attacks *on him* - than the characters we are told to think of as "good"?

I really wish you could try to empathize with Snape and see things from this character's pov. But it's clear that you can't. So I won't be arguing any more.

In any case, I think we're way off track! These books are certainly not all about Snape (even if they really should have been!;))

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Oh - just one more thing. There is no one on the face of this planet, in a book or in real life, who could pass your test for "true love". No one except Jesus. All of us, no matter how well socialized, loving and selfless, fail sometimes.

I'd say the 20-year-old Snape being willing to give up Lily forever qualifies, even though his motives were obviously mixed. Most of us, IRL, don't do better.

Quoting another livejournaller about Snape: "My heart breaks for him. He gave and gave and it was never enough."

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

There is no one on the face of this planet, in a book or in real life, who could pass your test for "true love".

Of course there is! Heaps of us. Not passing the test on every occasion over a spread of three score years and ten, but certainly passing the test some times, in some events.

I just wish Snape had passed the test just on this one occasion. The one clear time in the books where Rowling was trying to impress us with why he'd turned over a new leaf.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Of course there is! Heaps of us.

Harry, is that you? your arrogance preceeds you.

Not passing the test on every occasion over a spread of three score years and ten, but certainly passing the test some times, in some events.

Great, another deadline. Maybe its me but you make it sound like there is a time limit on love and if we don't meet it exactly right we get epic fail. Bad test, I guess I should have studied more.

Four score and seven years ago my fathers brought forth a new nation...filled with True Love.

Oh that my love nation could be included in the amazing crowd of heap.

Although when the word 'heap' is used around my part of the world, it's usually followed by 'of crap'.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

The one clear time in the books where Rowling was trying to impress us with why he'd turned over a new leaf.

I don't think JKR was actually trying to do that. She was telling us that he switched sides, yes, but I think that she didn't want us to think better of him, and so she tried to avoid making him look like he had a change of heart.

For myself, I find it amusing that rather than (as I see it) *actually* make Snape look bad, JKR has Dumbledore railroad him like a particularly unethical prosecutor. Of course, that serves the purpose of getting Snape to say "Anything," so that JKR can write less but still convey that Snape didn't just go back to being a DE, but instead helped Dumbledore.

Of course, anything lengthy would slow down the story... but considering JKR's predilection for massive exposition at the end of the story -- which she indulges in this very book! -- I'm not at all sympathetic. This scene only avoids being among the worst-written scenes in the series because it can make sense if Dumbledore is deliberately being a manipulative bastard, as he has been seen to do elsewhere.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Of course, that serves the purpose of getting Snape to say "Anything," so that JKR can write less but still convey that Snape didn't just go back to being a DE, but instead helped Dumbledore.

If I remember rightly, there was a conversation between Dumbledore and Harry. I don't exactly remember where, I can't say if it's in the movie or in the book. I'm thinking it's in the book.

But it was about Snape doing dark magic. Now, I can't remember if Harry was only asking about Snape or others along with Snape. But the coversation was something like if Snape had done dark magic and Dumbledores answer was not since he switched over.

Now thats not the exact conversation and like I said, I can't exactly remember what book. Maybe it was OOTP...hum. Maybe someone will know what I'm talking about but my explaination is kinda fuzzy.

Wait, it might have been when Harry saw in the pensive, the trial for Karkaroff, I'll have to hunt for that.

But anyway what I'm trying to point out is, it's as if JKR was giving us little hits along the way. I've sort of read some of these hints as, she didn't have to take the time to actually work up an explaination. In a lot of cases her hints seem to be the only info we get in story, so we don't actually get to see the end result becasue once that sentance is delivered, it's how it is forever.

So with what little we get about Snape's change over, I suppose we can choose to accept those little hints of info or ignore them. It's a bit like people accept Harrys view on Snape or not.

I am wondering if Snape decided to also turn his back on dark magic when he switched sides. Lily's complaint to him was the James and his group don't use dark magic. So at that point when Severus went over to DD, once Lily had died it's quite possible that despite his nature, he rejected that which he once did.

And on some level that makes him a much stronger character that Harry. Harry was quite willing, knowning that the torture curse and others were bad, he still choses to do them. While, we could assume by DD comment that Snape no longer did Dark magic - one might guess that Severus rejected it, steeled himself to resist temptation. Tried to lead the most moral and just life that he could.

Fine, he wasn't always nice to his students, he was nasty and sometimes hateful. But there is a lot to be said about a man who is still trying to do the right thing, even when the temptation is at it's greatest. He tells Dumbledore the only people he watched murdered were the people he could not save. So one might imagin that in that there were people he 'did' save.

To me there is more their than lust. Be that jkr isn't the best writer I still think that what she was showing was a man who had more than lust in his heart.

Back on the dark magic, the funny business there is we the readers, at the end of the series are kinda foggy on dark magic. Some of the stuff we see in HBP that Severus is accused of creating look no different from stuff the Weasley twins might try to invent.

We're lead to believe that Snape is bad because James Potter and Sirius Black decided Sev was the git of satan and must be flogged before the courts of Hogwarts.

It is not to say that Severus didn't do some bad things, and it is not to say that he didn't join the Death Eaters either.

But there is a lot to say in terms of IF we find Harry a less than reliable judge of character and if we find James Potter and Sirius Black actions and opinions questionable. Then odds are, Snape isn't as bad as he is made out to be by some of the characters or even the author.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

If Severus *really* wanted to only save Lily, and wanted to avoid saving James and Harry, he could have come up with a story that at least *might* lead Sane!Dumbledore to protect her *more* than James and Harry. He could say that Voldemort had become obsessed with killing her in particular for some reason. There weren't many Muggleborns in the Order, were there? Were there *any* others? If the only Muggleborn in the Order had defied him at least three times previously, it wouldn't be unreasonable to suggest that Voldemort might target her in particular to make a point.

I still don't think that that would *work*. Everyone relevant on both sides already knew that Voldemort was targeting Harry, whether he was also specifically targeting Lily. There would be no conceivable point in protecting Harry and Lily separately. Particularly since Harry was an infant and needed someone to take care of him.

And that's if Snape *made up* a story to try to get Lily protected on her own account, not what he actually said to Dumbledore.

I don't know. You aren't the only one to condemn Snape for being focused on Lily, but Snape can't possibly have believed that Dumbledore would protect Lily and *not* Harry and James unless Snape was an utter moron.

(...Or unless Snape had solid grounds for believing Dumbledore actually wanted Harry and/or James dead?)

Now, if you do believe that Snape was an utter moron, then I guess there isn't anything more to say. If you don't believe that, then I just don't understand your position. Snape didn't truly love Lily because he talked more about her than her husband and kid when he was acting to protect her whole family?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I find it amusing that rather than (as I see it) *actually* make Snape look bad, JKR has Dumbledore railroad him like a particularly unethical prosecutor.

Snape didn't look *bad* - well, super ultra evil - he *was* trying to save Lily. Even if it wasn't for the purest of reasons, even if his motivation was less 'true love' and more selfish desire. Even if he didn't care about *her* loved ones. He was still trying to save her, he gets part marks for that. :-)

I was going to agree with you about the Dumbledore thing - I only remembered the 'you disgust me' line, which seemed rather harsh - but I've just re-read the scene, and no, I think Dumbledore's severity of attitude was warranted. This was a meeting of ENEMIES, Lynn. The previous scene was with Snape still as a student; now he's a fair dinkum death eater, a (murdering) terrorist. That's why the first thing out of Snape's mouth is "don't shoot!". And why Dumbledore assumes that Snape has come bearing an (official) message from the enemy general.

So no, I'll go along with Dumbledore's demeanour and treatment of Snape there/then.

This scene only avoids being among the worst-written scenes in the series because it can make sense if Dumbledore is deliberately being a manipulative bastard, as he has been seen to do elsewhere.

Hmmm, I don't think I agree.

Sure, Dumbledore's a manipulative bastard. The entire series is impossible to take seriously because of how Rowling played him as an incompetent arrogant patronising disingenuous son of a gun whose 'plans' only worked because he had the author write "and lo! A chain of coincidences did come to pass!". But that small scene, having re-read it just now, isn't particularly bad.

If Severus *really* wanted to only save Lily, and wanted to avoid saving James and Harry, he could have come up with a story that at least *might* lead Sane!Dumbledore to protect her *more* than James and Harry. ... I still don't think that that would *work*.

Yes, I can't think of a way Snape could have had Dumbledore protect only Lily either. But that's all he wanted, and that's what makes his a less-than-perfect 'love'.

Snape didn't truly love Lily because he talked more about her than her husband and kid when he was acting to protect her whole family?

But he wasn't "acting to protect her whole family" at the start. I refer you to the words of one Albus Dumbledore:

"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

From Snape's response and his previous words the answer to these two questions is 'yes'. Snape didn't care about 'her whole family'. Only Lily. And that's why he doesn't measure up to the 'truly loved Lily' test.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

OH really. Is this the same enemy that Dumbledore, the general for the good guys just let walk away after the 'enemy' was caught listening in at the door of a meeting?

Excuse me but Dumbledore LET Severus walk away after he was apprehended listening in at the door. So you tell me, who is the fool here? Dumbledore let the prophecy go right to Voldemort, by a death eater that.

So you're fine with the greatone demeanour in allowing a easedropper to just walk away?

"If she means so much to you," said Dumbledore, "surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?"

"I have-I have asked him-"

"You disgust me," said Dumbeldore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. Snape seem to shrink a little. "You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.

"Hide them all, then," he croaked, "Keep her-them-safe. Please."

Dumbledore never lets Severus finish his statement at the beginning. Dumbledore is interrupting with what he believes happened between Voldemort and Severus. We never learn exactly how that whole situation went down between Voldie and Sev.

Dumbledore suddenly decided to becomes moral outrage at this particular moment.

Do you really believe that, when Voldemort said, Hay guess what Sev, I've chosen the Potter boy. You are the one that brought me that prophecy, and thank goodness you did so I choose the Potter boy.

So did Voldemort know Severus loved Lily? NO, all Voldemort thought was Severus 'lusted' after Lily. HE 'wanted' her was Voldemorts words. Voldemort was looking at what he wanted to see in his DE. No, my DE's can't love. He just wants her. Thanks for looking at it from Voldemorts point of view.

Severus was hiding his love and feelings from Voldemort.

You make it sound as if his choices were easy, to me he was a halfbred kid stuck between two worlds, he wanted to be accepted in the magical world.

HOW the hell was Severus supposed to approach Voldemort with the request to spare Lily? HE Knew that Voldemort had decided the Potter boy had to die. Do you think Severus was going to be able to talk Voldemort out of that? What were his options when he found out that Harry was the target?

None of us are saying Seveurs is the nices mad who made the right choices, but you also can't just ignore what happened either.

And point of fact Severus clearly doesn't trust Voldemort to spare Lily. Because if Severus trusted Voldemort he would have NEVER gone to Dumbledore. So Severus this great evil bastard, suppsedly faithful follower of the most evil Voldemort decides not to trust the word of his great master.

Why is that do you suppose?

So if you ask me Severus knew what it meant once Voldemort chose the potter family, knew what would happen. Believed what he felt for Lily was more than Lust. And the KEY is Severus believed he loved Lily. Whatever the hell you believe, HE believed that his world was over IF she died.

I don't think anyone here is saying Snape is the grand champion of purest love. I think what we're all saying is that Snape made mistakes and paid a price for them. BUT he decided NOT to trust Voldemort for a reason.

Severus decided it was MORE than Lust he felt for Lily. Severus decided that HE had to risk everything to save her. HIS life. He believed he loved Lily, he believed that she was the only thing worth saving in his life so he had to risk HIS life and do ANYTHING in his power to save her.

It doesn't really matter what anyone else believed, it is what Snape chose to believe that made the difference. IF he had only believed in lust and power and vengence then HE would have never gone to Dumbledore. HE would have believed that his master Voldemort would have given him Lily as promised. HE decided to put his faith somewhere else.

THAT IS the difference, THAT IS the point of the change. That is the point of his salvation, not his death and not what he did in between. The moment he moved away from Voldemort - he decided not to trust the dark side. That is more than just inperfect love.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

But he wasn't "acting to protect her whole family" at the start. I refer you to the words of one Albus Dumbledore:

"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Er. No, you've missed my point, and cited Dumbledore's railroading as a reason for my being wrong. (Dumbledore's steering of the conversation does not represent Snape's own thoughts, and pointing out that Dumbledore was Snape's enemy at the time doesn't make it any more likely that Dumbledore is accurately representing his thoughts. Wouldn't it be less likely, if anything?)

Snape wasn't acting to protect her whole family when he asked Voldemort to spare her, I'll grant you that. Of course, he couldn't exactly ask Voldemort to spare Harry, because killing Harry was the whole point for Voldemort. Asking Voldemort not to kill Harry would have been counterproductive -- since Voldemort would have responded to that by killing Snape, and not even considering sparing Lily.

As soon as Snape went to Dumbledore, he *was* acting to protect the whole family, because he can't possibly have believed that Dumbledore would protect *only* Lily, unless Snape was a moron.

I'm not sure whether the blame comes in, here. It isn't as though Snape decided that asking Voldemort to spare just Lily was enough. My entire point is that Snape can't be considered to be acting only to save Lily in asking Dumbledore. Not for one *second* of the conversation, not unless he's a moron.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I agree that there's some reason in that scene to accuse Dumbledore of 'railroading' Snape, and for fans to alleviate Snape of all guilt. I wish Dumbledore hadn't interrupted Snape those two or three times and given the Death Eater enough rope to hang himself. Fully.

But there still isn't enough steering to pardon Snape. It seems clear that Snape's first thought was only for the target of his crush:

"You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?"

Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.

"Hide them all, then,” he croaked. “Keep her – them – safe. Please."

"Hide them all, then." I find that 'then' quite damning. The deaths of Lily's husband and child? I hadn't thought about them, okay, save them as well, then. The 'then' shows that the notion of saving James and Harry is a second step, a new version of Snape's original goal.

Furthermore, if Snape *had* intended to save all three Potters - which I contend he would want to do, had he truly loved Lily - then, surely, the obvious thing to say would have been "But, yes, I *do* care!". Something along those lines. Some sort of rebuttal. Some correction of Dumbledore's *wrong* assumption, which lead to the 'disgust'.

But no. Snape offers no correction. He *accepts* the accusation of caring only for Lily, of having no conscience as to the other two Potters' lives. He doesn't reject the accusation. Instead he accepts it - guilty as charged - and changes his request to version 2, oh, save them as well, then.

Snape was infatuated with Lily, he 'loved' her to some degree, but it wasn't full blown "anything to make her happy" love.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

In that line, "Hide them all, then,” Snape's dragging the conversation back to the actual point. Dumbledore is happy to go on about what a wretched person Snape is -- after all, Snape's blatantly betraying the Dark Lord to protect an ex-friend; what else would Dumbledore want to talk about than Snape's flaws?

Snape could defend himself, but Snape, unlike Dumbledore, thinks that there are more important things than discussing *him*. Snape is not primarily worried about himself in that scene (pretty clear, since he's risking his life for Lily), and Dumbledore has pretty clearly shown that his mind is made up.

Snape, unlike us, isn't in fandom, so he doesn't debate everything endlessly before moving on.

I guess you're concluding that Snape's a moron, though, since according to your account, he only accepted that he was acting to protect James and Harry halfway through the conversation.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

what else would Dumbledore want to talk about than Snape's flaws?Snape could defend himself --

Yes, he could. One single sentence even.

-- he only accepted that he was acting to protect James and Harry halfway through the conversation.

He only accepted that his worst enemy (plus son) being saved was a related 'cost' to saving Lily, yes.

Which is something he could have realised going in, yes. But in his rush/desperation his true priority/goal was made evident.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Furthermore, if Snape *had* intended to save all three Potters - which I contend he would want to do, had he truly loved Lily - then, surely, the obvious thing to say would have been "But, yes, I *do* care!". Something along those lines. Some sort of rebuttal.

No. Because his moral standing with the twinkling fool isn't the point. That kind of rebuttal is something *I* would have offered because I'm that kind of an idiot. And I'm argumentative. But a person with sense and a mission to accomplish wouldn't argue about something that derails the conversation from lives in need of saving to whom he cares about and other less relevant stuff. Similarly I can hear Severus' exasperation when he gets to the 'Hide them all then' part.

My parents always talk about coming to visit me, buying things for me wondering about how I am doing, when they mean the three of us - my husband, my daughter and myself. And similarly my MIL talks of my husband when she means all three of us. If either my husband or myself insisted everyone got mentioned we'd come across badly.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

But a person with sense and a mission to accomplish wouldn't argue about something that derails the conversation --

A person with sense and a mission to accomplish - a person with the mighty intellect of Snape - would have fronted up to Dumbledore at the start begging for help in saving the Potter family. All three of them. Dumbledore's disgust, the whole thing, would have been averted.

But no. Snape rushed in, unthinking, and thus his true goal was revealed - he was only thinking of Lily. Not her happiness, not of the man she loved, not of her child, just his - Snape's - Lily.

The Snape with the brains that you laud would not have made the slip he did in the first place. But he *did* make that slip. Which showed that his feelings for Lily weren't of the highest order of (romantic) love.

[oryx_leucoryx]

The Snape with the brains that you laud would not have made the slip he did in the first place.

Since my family members make that 'slip' routinely I don't see it as a problem. I'm sure that if my entire family were in any kind of danger my parents (and probably other relatives) would talk of the danger to me and my in-laws about danger to my husband. But they would mean me or my husband (as the case may be) as a proxy to the three of us.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Snape was infatuated with Lily, he 'loved' her to some degree, but it wasn't full blown "anything to make her happy" love.


I would be happy with a million dollars and a new corvette, but nobody as yet has done anything to prove their love to me.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

The whole problem is, Dumbledore didn't seem to do a damn thing really.

James and Lily seem to be the one who went out of the way to make their secret keeper pact.

Oh, yea, lets not forget, Dumbledore 'offered' to be secret keeper.

Oh yea wait, I think there is that comment in an interview where JKR says, if the potters were attacked Dumbledore had some kinda spell on the house to let him know. WOW, thanks Dumbledore, isn't if a little late ONCE they get attacked? What kind of dumbjerk is Dumbledore? Sorry, I don't remember if that was in book I think it was in an intervew where JKR was asked how DD knew and she gave us some thing about Dumbledore had a spell on the house. My memory is bad so maybe I'm just imagining that in my rage...but seriously IF that is true what good would it do if the devil is at the door attacking.

Wow, thanks Dumbledore, way to get off your ass and actually keep your end of the deal to Severus and Lily and James.

While Severus is promising 'anything' - Dumbledore so graciously 'offers' to be secret keeper. Wow, thanks for the offer but we've got someone better. Really someone better?

The Dumbdoor didn't even insist that he be secret keeper. He should have told them it would be best if he did it because XYZ, any fricking reason would do. The dude for the whole series has manipulates everyone yet at this point when he should have been doing some powerful manipulations he leaves James and Lily on their own to handle it.

way to go OH great one.

One thing MOST people don't seem to ask is WHY wouldn't James and Lily want Dumbledore as their secret keeper??????????????????

The most powerful wizard that VOLDEMORT is afraid of and those two IDIOTs choose, Peter Petigrew because Sirius Black said it was a better idea.

Comeon people. WTF?

Dumbledore looks like he sat around in his tower, didn't really press the issue to helping hide James or Lily and then decided OHHHhh that invisibility cloak looks pretty, can I borrow it...Muwhahahah...

If Harry was predicted to defeat Voldemort, AND we know Dumbledore doesn't mind sacrificing people for the 'greater good' then can anyone really tell me that Dumbledore didn't stay out of the way on purpose?

Seriously, Snape is the bad guy in this part of the story? This 20-22 year old guy begging the Greatest Wizard to protect his dearest love? And Dumbledore just sits on his ass and does practically nothing???????

Snape is evil and didn't have love in his heart for Lily??? Really? Please give me a reason to accept anything Dumbledore says or anything James and Sirius says or even anything Harry says about Snape.

What part of anything did Dumbledore do really?

Okay so I know I'm ranting, but the good guys are stupid. Maybe it's just like Dark Helmet said in space balls, Evil will win becasue good is dumb. The bastard isn't far off if you ask me...good thing Dumbledore was evil or the good guys would be up shit creek without a paddle. And good thing Harry as able to get just evil enough to do some torture in the last book.

Okay, so I'm ranty I know but, screw this nonsense about Snape had no love in his heart, my thought is maybe he had to much and didn't know how to deal with it because the good guys who were supposed to be filled with love and kindness were nothing but mean bullies and Snape was just trying to imitate what he believed was 'good' - shown to him by people like James/Sirius and Dumbledore.

Severus doesn't seem to have any real good guys to model himself after if you ask me; even Lily looks like a rotten onion in some respects.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

I put forward my own personal metric for how 'true love' works.

Your "personal metric" doesn't make it a universal metric.

Although the issue here is simply my contention that what he felt for Lily wasn't 'true love'

The author says it was.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Your "personal metric" doesn't make it a universal metric.

And I expected debate along those lines.

Surprisingly enough, though, Karen and oneandthetruth seemed to accept my standard and bounced straight into the "well, everyone else is just as bad!" school yard justification for Snape's failings instead.

The author says it was.

I don't know what Rowling said in her interviews, I'm just addressing what I read in the books.

In DH the big reveal is made that Snape 'loved' Lily, and we readers are supposed to be convinced that this 'love' is the sole reason he sided with Dumbledore and stuck with the good guys for all those years. At least at first; I accept that Snape ultimately was 'good' for altruistic, non-Lily reasons, I'm not clear on when that happened or why.

Rowling's work wasn't convincing. Snape's only wanting Lily saved - for himself - damns that 'love' as not being authentic, it wasn't the real deal.

[karentheunicorn.livejournal.com]

Surprisingly enough, though, Karen and oneandthetruth seemed to accept my standard and bounced straight into the "well, everyone else is just as bad!" school yard justification for Snape's failings instead.

I've rarely seen any threads in DTCL stay exactly on topic as you seem to be insisting we have to be. Reguardless of if we really are going off topic (which I don't believe we are). You continuing to harp on that fact.

It's kind of insulting honestly.