OOTP Chapter Twenty: "Hagrid's Tale"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* Courage, my friends. If you ever feel yourself
hesitant to go on, just think of the feelings of relief you’ll get once you
reach the end of the chapter.

 

* So how big are elves’ heads if a hat intended for
them can fit Hermione? Or is she just really bad at knitting, and consequently
her hats are all over the place in terms of size?

* Oddly enough, none of the boys seem pleased at the
prospect of having to stand very close to Hermione. Perhaps because she isn’t
yet the Beautiful!Hermione she’ll be by DH.

* Nearly-Headless Nick is humming “something that
sounded horribly like ‘Weasley is our King’.” Because Ron’s so pathetic, even
his House ghost is against him.

* I don’t see why Hagrid can’t just get somebody to
magic away his injuries. There’s no way I’m going to believe that wizarding
society hasn’t yet invented a spell to heal cuts and bruises.

* Hagrid’s pretence of secrecy stops as soon as
Hermione says the word “giants”. That man really cannot be trusted to keep
secrets.

* Muggles sometimes find giants, but their deaths
are just put down to mountaineering accidents. Firstly, I doubt that being
clubbed to death by a giant would leave similar marks to falling off a cliff or
whatever; secondly, are we really supposed to believe that literally nobody
managed to escape and tell the wider world about the giants?

* Although I suppose that anybody who did escape would just be Obliviated, so
maybe not.

* Hagrid and Madam Maxime couldn’t take a Portkey
because they were being watched. Yes, because secretly turning an innocuous
object into a Portkey and then instantaneously teleporting half-way across
Europe would have been absolutely no help in trying to evade their pursuers.

* Ron is appalled at the prospect of acting like a
Muggle. What a tolerant, open-minded young man he is.

* Dumbledore told them all about giant customs,
despite Hagrid and Olympe being the ones with giant ancestors.

* It was easy to tell which one was the chief,
because he was “the biggest, the ugliest an’ the laziest.” Because those are
the qualities which giants value in their chiefs, apparently.

* Given Hagrid’s fondness for big, ugly pets, it
looks like he might have inherited a bit of their value system himself. Not
that blood’s important, you understand.

* Give the chief a gift, and he becomes your BFF.
Just like children, really.

* The giants so far seem to have an intelligence
level somewhere between that of small children and monkeys, but Karkus is
apparently knowledgeable enough of world politics to have heard of Dumbledore
and his attitude towards the giants. Right.

* Hagrid and Olympe can’t take out the Death Eaters,
for some reason. I’d have thought that picking off Voldemort’s supporters
before they can regain their old strength would be an excellent idea. Are they
worried about antagonising the giants by killing emissaries to them? But if
they do it properly, nobody will know who killed them. Or are they afraid of
provoking Voldemort? But then war’s coming anyway, and surely it would be to
Dumbledore’s advantage to provoke Voldemort into starting it before he’s fully
ready? IDGI.

* This whole Hagrid/Olympe thing is incredibly
tiresome, especially since it’s forgotten after this book and has no effect
whatsoever on the plot.

* A lot like the giants subplot in general, come to
think of it…

* Contrary to what Hagrid says, the chances of any
giants reaching England from wherever it is they’re supposed to live are
practically nil. Aside from anything else, they’re just too big and noticeable.
They can’t pretend to be humans, like wizards can, and they can’t hide
properly. They’d be found and stopped long before they reached their
destination.

* Umbridge arrives, and finally we get a break from
Hagrid’s reminisces. Thank God; I think I was starting to lose the will to
live.

* Couldn’t Hagrid just say that he got his injuries
from one of the animals in the Hogwarts grounds? It’s not like there aren’t any
dangerous creatures, after all, and it would be more believable than “I
tripped”.

* “‘Yes, as gamekeeper fresh air must be so
difficult to come by,’ said Umbridge sweetly.” Point to Umbridge there for
displaying more critical thinking skills than half the other characters put
together.

* So does Hagrid’s curriculum disregard what will
come up in their OWLs, then? Because that seems a bit unprofessional to me.

* Hermione leaves determined to save the one teacher
who everybody would be happy to go.

* And that brings us to the end of “Hagrid’s Tale”.
Now I don’t know about you, but I think I need a stiff drink after that.
Possibly some sort of counselling, too.

Comments

[sunnyskywalker]

This whole Hagrid/Olympe thing is incredibly
tiresome, especially since it’s forgotten after this book and has no effect
whatsoever on the plot.

Do we have a list of subplots which go nowhere? For starters, I know we have

- Recruiting the giants/Hagrid and Olympe
- House-elf rights
- Goblin rights/rebellious tendencies (they're still angry, right? especially about the sword?)
- Ludo Bagman's disappearance
- Dementors on the loose (are they still out there Kissing Muggles?)
- House unity (no one listens to the Sorting Hat...)
- Dumbledore the Untrustworthy (he's wrong and makes huge mistakes, but follow his plan exactly and everything will be fine)
- Metamorphmagery
- Harry's Amazing Auto-Wand
- Stan Shunpike: innocent, guilty, Imperiused? (I don't count Harry's intuition as resolution.)

I know there must be at least a dozen more I'm forgetting.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

Here’s a few that I can think of off the top of my head.

1. The life debt between Harry and Peter (turns out that it wasn't real?)
2. Snape’s special relationship with the Malfoys/his reason for agreeing to the Unbreakable Vow ("All for Lily" is not a valid answer)
3. Draco’s character development in HBP
4. Hermione’s parents (we never find out what happens to them in the epilogue)
5. The Dursleys (we never find out what happens to them after DH either)
6. The fate of Xeophilius Lovegood (what happened after the Snatchers caught up with him?)
7. The entire wizarding justice system itself (is Azkaban still open? Are suspects still thrown into jail without a trial? Is the Minister still appointed, rather than elected by the people?)
8. The impact of Voldemort’s war on the Muggle world (if there was one)
9. The relationship between Harry and Snape (let's not have Harry deal with Snape for almost the entirety of the final book until the very end where he learns that Snape did it all for Lily)
10. Similarities between Harry and Tom (nope, Tom was a bad apple from the very beginning)

[sunnyskywalker]

Oh yes, Hermione's parents! That's kind of huge... Would have been nice to see them at King's Cross seeing their grandkids off at minimum, but they're only Muggles, I guess. And the whole Tom/Dumbledore/Snape/Harry mess of parallels never did come to anything, which is incredible given all the setup.

Also, since in the book Harry just put the Elder Wand back in Dumbledore's tomb, I'd count that. Anyone could swipe it. (I think the movie version was a big improvement in this instance.)

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Would have been nice to see them at King's Cross seeing their grandkids off at minimum, but they're only Muggles, I guess.

Considering how Hermione ended up, I bet she probably just forgot about them. And to think that a lot of fans see that scene as being tragic... for HERMIONE. *Oh how tragic! She must mindrape her parents without asking their permission, despite their being intelligent adults perfectly able to make their own decisions. How I weep for her!*

Pardon me, I know that I harp on the muggle thing a lot, but come on! How can JKR not realize how creepy and patronizing this is?

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

About the only explanation I can think of is that JK Rowling ended up forgetting that she and her readers are Muggles. Maybe because Harry was abused by the Dursleys and wasn't allowed to have much of a social life, he had no real attachment to the Muggle world, and ended up internalising all their anti-Muggle prejudices. Then JKR identified so much with him that she started internalising them too. Actually, that might explain a lot of the, ah, moral inconsistencies in the books...

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

OK, I guess that makes sense, but what really galls me is that she claims to have written a series that profoundly tackles the real-world issue of prejudice. That it does, but definitely not in the way that I think she thinks it does. Maybe as she became extremely rich and famous she started to see herself as part of an elite? Of course, I am totally speculating here, but it might explain why it seems to get worse as the series progresses.

Although I myself attempt to write fantasy, I feel like there is a lot of privilege and snobbery in much of the genre- some people are special, some aren't. Sucks to be you if you aren't one of the important people, because you are inherently unworthy of being treated like a human being and will never be anything more than an incidental character. Oddly enough, for being the foundation of modern fantasy The Lord of the Rings doesn't really do this. Sure, there are kings, elves and powerful wizards, but when it really comes down to it the world is saved by a random hobbit gardener. (yes, Sam is my favorite character, why do you ask?)

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"Although I myself attempt to write fantasy, I feel like there is a lot of privilege and snobbery in much of the genre- some people are special, some aren't. Sucks to be you if you aren't one of the important people, because you are inherently unworthy of being treated like a human being and will never be anything more than an incidental character."

I think that's probably because fantasy owes a lot to ancient/mediaeval stories, which were generally written for the upper classes (or at least the ones that survive were), and therefore spend all their time dealing with upper-class people and making the upper classes in general look good.

"Oddly enough, for being the foundation of modern fantasy The Lord of the Rings doesn't really do this. Sure, there are kings, elves and powerful wizards, but when it really comes down to it the world is saved by a random hobbit gardener. (yes, Sam is my favorite character, why do you ask?)"

Don't forget Frodo! Not many fantasy worlds have been saved by a fat, middle-aged pygmy who only succeeds in his task due to luck, and is left a physical and emotional cripple by his experiences.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

I think that's probably because fantasy owes a lot to ancient/mediaeval stories, which were generally written for the upper classes (or at least the ones that survive were), and therefore spend all their time dealing with upper-class people and making the upper classes in general look good.

This is very true, though I really feel that in the 21st century we ought to be over this by now. I mean, there really aren't a lot of monarchies left in the real world, and even fewer in which the monarchs really are anything beyond figureheads. Why do we still think that one has to be a super-special to make a difference? There are many cases in history of average people doing something heroic. Actually, I find them even more heroic, since they don't usually have much to back them up, yet still are willing to risk everything to save others.

And shame on me for forgetting Frodo! I guess that I was exempting him because he's upper-class in hobbit society (he's a gentleman, and their structure seems to be mostly dominated by the gentry). Not that this helps him at all once he leaves the Shire, I suppose, but it's always in the background, especially in how Sam defers to him.

Of course, considering the terrible things he goes through and how he is definitely not unscarred from it, he is much better than your usual fantasy hero. That's actually one of my favorite things about that series- Tolkien never neglects to show the terrible effects of war and fear on people, and it makes it mean so much more when they manage to triumph over it in spite of it.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Peter's life debt played out as a slight hesitation in killing Harry. Apparently that's how much Harry's life is worth.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Good Question! I have so far...

- The locked room in the Department of Mysteries with "The Power of Love"
- Ron getting attacked by the brains in the DOM
- Lupin's work with the werewolves
- Whether Luna has some special ability to see things that others can't
- The disappearance of Florean Fortescue

[sunnyskywalker]

And the Veil, for another DoM Big Honking Item of Foreshadowing.

I'm still baffled about Florean Fortescue. Did the DEs just need an in-house ice cream provider? Or did it have something to do with his extensive knowledge of medieval witch burnings, or his relationship with the former Headmaster Fortescue? Right now, I'm betting on ice cream.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Voldemort had to do something to keep up morale.

[sunnyskywalker]

What can you do after being embarrassingly defeated by teenagers but go home and have a nice sundae, after all?

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Somebody really ought to write a fanfic related to this.

[oryx_leucoryx]

- So what was the point of the Triwizard Tournament? Who wanted it reinstated and why?
- involvement of European wizards (on either side)
- role of Wizengamot (and all of Dumbly's other positions) - they must have meant something or what would be the point of firing and re-appointing him in OOTP, but if so why does he insist on working outside the establishment when he *is* the establishment?
- Severus' Potions textbook - the significance of it being old, maybe Eileen's, the significance of it being left at Hogwarts (or taken from Severus or...), and the significance of Harry wanting to have access to it later - until he all but forgot about it.
- is there now a system to educate werewolves and other disadvantaged minorities?

[sunnyskywalker]

And speaking of Europe, what is the deal with Albania? "Because Helena went there first" only pushes the question back to why she went there.

So that's... what, 33 now? Yikes.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Swythyv has this theory that Albania is actually in Scotland because "Albania," is the Latinised variant of "Alba," which was the Scottish Gaelic name for Scotland. She gave a presentation on it at the Aeternitas conference a few months ago, but she still needs to tell the rest of us about it. :)

[sunnyskywalker]

That would make sense... but isn't Hogwarts already in Scotland? How can you go to Albania if you're already in Albania? Unless the name only applies to a portion of Scotland (or maybe Hogwarts is on the border or something).

Also, didn't Neville say Uncle Algie got the Mimulus Mimbletonia in Abyssinia? If they're still using that old place-name, that could lend some support to the Albania=Scotland theory.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Also, didn't Neville say Uncle Algie got the Mimulus Mimbletonia in Abyssinia?

Assyria. And Transylvania is a wizarding country in its own right. Who knows how Wizarding geography works.

[sunnyskywalker]

The difference between Muggle and wizarding national borders could have been interesting. Suppose the Holy Roman Empire still exists for wizards, all the principalities included - imagine the poor German Chancellor trying to keep up with them all, if they talk to him like British wizards talk to the Muggle PM. Not to mention the leaders of Switzerland, Poland, the Netherlands, France, Italy... Or what about the Ottoman Empire? Did Russian wizards go for communism, or do they still have a czar, or did they switch to something else entirely? Damn, why did Rowling have to go and make wizarding politics so boring? So much potential!

If she'd followed up on the international bits in GoF, all this might have been relevant. Since Voldemort seems to have Eastern European connections (at least, he had the headmaster of Durmstrang for a while), he's potentially an international problem, so you would expect either the Ministry to ask the International Confederation of Wizards for help, or for other wizarding governments to intervene anyway. Bill/Fleur (and Molly's and Ginny's antagonism) might have been more interesting if wizarding France was pushing to get an international coalition of trained fighters (probably from the equivalents of Aurors, since I doubt they have standing armies) to go, er, "assist" the British since they obviously can't handle it themselves. Or something. Anything, really. Maybe they're mad about Dumbledore convincing Flamel to die (since he was French, originally). At least bringing in a group of foreign wizards which isn't pro-Ministry or pro-Dumbledore would have shaken things up. And Harry could be concerned at how they're trying to take over British politics "for the greater good" (could have serious downsides), and be irked that they're not respecting Dumbledore properly, but then be baffled because it isn't like he wants to support the Ministry either, and the foreign wizards did get a few DEs off the street... but then he'd have to think, and we can't have that.

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Did Russian wizards go for communism, or do they still have a czar, or did they switch to something else entirely? Damn, why did Rowling have to go and make wizarding politics so boring? So much potential!

And what about the former colonies of European nations? When a country gained independence from its motherland/fatherland, did the magikal communities in those new countries create their own political systems? Did the former colonial wizards and witches decide to become independent of both former Muggle AND magikal rulers?

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

This is a fascinating point. Why is the WW more interesting when we don't have to see everything through Harry's eyes?

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Rowling is too centered on her own experience, IOW Great Britain in general, Scotland in particular, to particularly care about other lands/cultures/ethnicities.

So she really doesn't give a damn about the WW in other areas of the world, whether Old World or New World.

But personally I think that in regards to the non-European Old World, there was a very long-standing tradition of magikal folk being honored by nonmagikal folk, and indeed a tradition of magikal folk being in the employ of nonmagikal rulers. I find it hard to believe that such cultures would have willing accepted the Statute of Secrecy.

As for the New World, basically it comes down to the question of what sort of magikal folk would choose to leave their home country and go abroad, and why they would chose to do so.

Just like nonmagikal folk, rarely did you have the well-to-do doing so. For the occasional second or third son of some aristocrat who decided to see if he could make his fortune in the colonies, you had thousands of people who were middleclass at best, dirt poor at worst (and the more likely scenario)...and a goodly number of people who were one step ahead of the law back home and were lucky enough to get onboard a ship headed to a colony before the magistrates grabbed them.

So I see no reason for the same demographics not to apply to magikal folk who chose to immigrate -- there may have been a handful who were well-off but decided to see if they could make money off nonmagikal fellow immigrants. But the rest would have been magikal folk who, for whatever reason, were not amongst the top levels of magikal society. Some may have even been escaping Azkaban and the Dementors.

These would have been people who would not retain any particularly strong ties/loyalty to the Ministry (if they were British immigrants) or to the Wizamagot. In fact perhaps some of the very early magikal colonists to the Americas chose to leave Great Britain when the Statute of Secrecy was enacted just for that very reason, because they didn't agree with it and wanted to go somewhere where it would be difficult at best to be enforced.

Travel and communication between Europe and the Americas in the 17th and 18th centuries would have been rather difficult for magikal folk; a portkey would have to be delivered via nonmagikal sailing ship, which could take months. Ditto apparition -- one can only do it if one has a clear image of the destination in one's mind. Colonial wizards and witches could presumably apparate back to Europe for a visit, and apparate back to the Americas, but it would be difficult, if not impossible, for the MoM or the Wizamagot to perform effect law enforcement that way.

And that's assuming there isn't a distance limit on apparition.

At best, someone from the MoM or Wizanmagot could sail via nonmagikal sailing ship to a major colonial city, perhaps even set up a regional outpost. But if word got back to, say, a Ministry regional office in Boston in 1750 that some wizard was doing public magik for Muggle villagers somewhere in the Smokey Mountains of Tennessee, what were they going to do? The regional Ministry officials in Boston would be as unable to apparate or portkey to Tennessee as their London counterparts.

Okay, this post has rambled more than I'd planned, but it's something I've actually given a lot of thought to because I think Rowling really dropped the ball on this aspect of her WW, and I think that it would make a fascinating story to tell the "history" of magikal folk in the Americas, both native and immigrant (whether immigrant by choice or forced).

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"Rowling is too centered on her own experience, IOW Great Britain in general, Scotland in particular, to particularly care about other lands/cultures/ethnicities."

True, although it makes me wonder why she chose to include the whole foreign wizards subplot. If she hadn't written about the Triwizard Tournament in GOF, and instead decided on something else to tie into Voldemort's resurrection, I doubt anybody would really bother about the lack of detail paid to foreign wizarding cultures. Maybe it's because "multi-ethnic band of allies put aside differences to fight Evil Overlord" is such a common fantasy trope, she thought she'd better include it, but didn't care enough to follow it through?

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

If she hadn't written about the Triwizard Tournament in GOF, and instead decided on something else to tie into Voldemort's resurrection, I doubt anybody would really bother about the lack of detail paid to foreign wizarding cultures.

I disagree...as soon as the series became popular in other languages, readers in those countries would invariably ask "What about wizards and witches in my own country?"

It was Rowling's answer in an interview when some kid asked if there were any wizarding schools in the United States, and Rowling answered yes, "...in Salem..."

Presumably Rowling was referring to Salem, Massachusetts, and I hit the roof when I saw that answer! It shows how ignorant Rowling is regarding most, if not all, things American, and especially American history.

"Oh...witches...America...SALEM!" Blecchhhhh! :-P

Salem, Massachusetts would be the LAST place any magikal folk would build a wizarding school, even one that could be hidden from nonmagikal folks eyes! Most of New England would be a poor choice, although I can entertain the prospect of a school in the farthest reaches of Maine, close to the Canadian border.

Personally I think the U.S. would end up with more than one school, but that's just me.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

I think that you are totally right here. I might not be a bestselling author, but as an aspiring author/DM even I know that it's good to think beyond the place the actual story is set in. In this case it comes off as a bit ethnocentric, which really doesn't help the creepy jingoist feel the series has already.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Just adding to the list that Winky basically disappeared after a mention of her by Dobby in OotP

[sunnyskywalker]

Winky's alcoholism adds another problem: besides the unresolved issue of whether house-elves ever got more rights, we also have the unresolved issue of whether house-elves really are servants by nature rather than magically bound, Stockholmed, etc. Would any elf but Dobby be that destroyed by being freed? And would it be something that could improve with good therapy, or is it an intrinsic, immutable response to being unbound and Dobby's just an outlier or a mutant or something?

Another one: what happened to the cave full of Inferi? Did that ever get cleared out, or are they still there, and could some other dark lord get control of them? (Could Harry use them as a secret Auror department weapon? *shiver*)

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

I know I am not the first one to bring it up, but the way that freed house elves are portrayed (either still fawning over their wizard "betters" or perpetually drunk and pathetic) is rather unsettling. Kind of gives me flashbacks to Uncle Tom's Cabin. Except wait... that was a 19th century book and was supposed to make you appalled by slavery. I'm not sure if there is a proper equivalent here. Any suggestions?

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

It reminds me of the slave girl "Prissy" in Gone With The Wind...

"The YANKEES is comin' Miz Scarlet! The YANKEES! We's gotta get away!"

Screamed in terror, as if the Union troops who would liberate her were the Devil's minions ready to snatch her down to Hell...

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Wow... somehow this makes it just that much worse. ;-) Good correlation there.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

- Why did Regulus turn against Voldemort? (There's no way I'm believing that he was fine with all the murders and genocide, and only turned against the DEs when Voldy killed his House Elf.)

- Divination: real or a fraud? Dumbledore centres his whole plan around a prophecy, but treats the subject as a sort of joke and downplays the prophecy's importance in HBP.

- The Marauders' general behaviour, but especially their treatment of Snape -- Harry's horrified by it in SWM, but pretty much forgets about it after OOTP.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

- The Twins' joke shop: after the DEs use their Peruvian Instant Darkness Powder in HBP, Ron says something along the lines of "They'll have to be more careful about who they sell them to". This is never mentioned in DH.

- Percy/Penelope -- do we even hear of Penny after POA?