OOTP Chapter Twenty-Seven: "The Centaur and the Sneak"

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

* First of all, sorry this is so late, I'm afraid I've been a bit busy preparing to go back to university.

* This is the chapter in which Hermione officially crosses the line from “occasionally strident and self-righteous but on the whole likeable and sympathetic character” to “dangerous sociopath”.

* “‘A gorgeous centaur...’ sighed Parvati.” I must say that, given the, erm, associations of centaurs in classical mythology, this sort of thing rather creeps me out. Is JKR aware of the implications of what she’s writing? Or did she just throw it in without bothering to think it through?

* Hermione’s dropping dark hints about what Umbridge is going to do, revealing the plot like any good author avatar would.

* So Harry can remember the names of centaurs he met once four years ago, but in DH he won’t be able to remember a face from a picture from one chapter to the next. *coughplotconveniencecough*

* Wow, centaurs sure are arrogant and condescending people. No wonder Dumbledore felt enough of an affinity with Firenze to hire him as a teacher. He recognises a kindred spirit when he sees one.

* If I were JKR, I’d be hesitant to dignify the wizarding conflicts with the term “war”. They’re more like gang wars than what most people would think of as warfare. Which is why epic fantasy doesn’t really mix with a “secret magical people in this world” plot. Epic fantasy generally centres around mighty empires, big wars and bloody battles, but these things are generally quite noticeable, and any wizards fighting in large-scale conflicts would be found out pretty quickly. So the wizarding war pretty much has to be low-key to make it plausible that Muggles wouldn’t know about it, and the end result is that we get a lot of build-up and very little payoff.

* Firenze spends the whole lesson teaching them something which he doesn’t expect them to do anyway, and which is anyway a bit uncertain and useless. So he’s about as good as the average Hogwarts teacher, then.

* “Indeed, Harry sometimes wondered how Umbridge was going to react when all the members of the DA received ‘Outstanding’ in their Defence Against the Dark Arts OWLs.” Only kidding, Harry will be the only one to get an “Outstanding” mark, because he’s a Mary Sue just the most awesome DADA student ever.

* Although everybody always goes on about how smart Hermione is, and from what we see of her she doesn’t seem noticeably worse in DADA than she does in other subjects, so if she only got an “E” in her Defence OWL, that’s probably because Harry’s not a very good teacher... :p

* Seamus’ Patronus “was definitely something hairy”. *mind goes into the gutter*

* Hermione’s Patronus is an otter, even though she’s one of the least otter-like people in the series. On a Doylist level, this is probably because JKR’s favourite animal is the otter, so her author avatar will have one as her Patronus, obviously. On a Watsonian level, perhaps Patronuses don’t represent what your personality is like, but what you need to guard you and keep you out of trouble. So Hermione’s is an otter because she needs fun-loving people around her to stop her getting too serious about everything, Ron’s is a weasel because he needs smart people to compensate for his mental inadequacy, and Harry’s is a stag because he needs a proper father-figure to help him, not an abusive one like Uncle Vernon or a scheming and manipulative one like Dumbledore. Patronuses which change when somebody falls in love show that their caster needs to be loved by their intended in order to feel happy and secure again.

* Dobby appears, wearing “his usual eight woollen hats”. I quite like the suggestion that it was this sight that made Hermione drop her SPEW activities, as she saw that her hats were all going to this one elf, and that they were therefore pretty useless from a freeing people standpoint. (Can anybody remember if SPEW is brought up again in this book?)

* Umbridge is here! I bet it’s times like this that the DA wish they had a second, secret entrance from the ROR. That way they could slip away while Umbridge and her cronies sat uselessly in front of the main entrance.

* Draco’s concealed “beneath an ugly dragon-shaped vase”, to match his ugly and monstrous soul.

* Umbridge has “an indecent excitement in her voice”. I wonder if this is how Hermione would sound to those on the receiving end of her little schemes.

* When I first read this scene, I didn’t really mind the “Sneak” curse, because I just sort of assumed that Madam Pomfrey managed to find a way of removing them after a couple of weeks. Then we found out that she still had the scars years later and... yikes.

* Not only is that extremely vindictive, but it doesn’t actually help the DA in any way. It didn’t stop them being betrayed in the first place, and it didn’t alert them to the fact that Umbridge was coming to get them. If this had been a one-off incident and the curse hadn’t been permanent, I’d be inclined to put it down to youthful lack of thought, but when you compare it to some of Hermione’s other actions (her treatment of Rita Skeeter, or sending those canaries after Ron), it seems like a rather worrying pattern is starting to emerge...

* Minerva gets all self-righteous about Willy Widdershins being let off. I wonder whether she feels the same about Mundungus Fletcher, or whether petty crooks are OK just as long as they’re on her side.

* Also, she’s not above a bit of petty corruption herself, since she lets Gryffindor Quidditch players off homework when a match is coming up.

* So Kingsley memory-wipes Marietta to stop her telling. You know, this is exactly the sort of mentality that leads DEs to Imperius people and get them to do their bidding: not caring about your victims’ autonomy, just violating their minds when it’s convenient to do so.

* Also, if they are going to mind-wipe Marietta, why not do it to Percy, Fudge and Umbridge too? That would get them out of trouble entirely.

* And really guys, Umbridge has a list of DA members and access to Veritaserum. Obliviating one witness shouldn’t be enough.

* I’m surprised Umbridge thought she could get away with manhandling students like that in front of Dumbledore. I mean, that man’s just so concerned about his students’ welfare.

* Hermione left the membership list pinned to the ROR wall. Well done, Hermione. Not that any DA members will point out this idiocy to her. Nor will they point out the fact that her defensive jinx was (a) vindictive and useless, and (b) not told about to them when they joined up. Maybe they’re all worried she’ll brand the word “COMPLAINER” across their forehead if they speak up.

* Dumbledore taking the rap is all very noble and everything, but I don’t see how it’s meant to help. Fudge can still charge the pupils with attending, even if they didn’t organise it, and now Dumbledore’s ensured that he’s going to be on the run and unable to give them any help.

* Face-scarring aside, I actually quite liked this chapter. It was quite well-paced, and I never really felt like I was wading through pages of filler. It will be interesting to see if the other chapters will be more like this now the book’s reaching its climax, or whether the quality will slip back down again.

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

This is the chapter in which Hermione officially crosses the line from “occasionally strident and self-righteous but on the whole likeable and sympathetic character” to “dangerous sociopath”.

I thought she did that when she captured Rita and blackmailed her. And moreso when she forced Rita to publish Hermione's version of 'the truth'.

“Indeed, Harry sometimes wondered how Umbridge was going to react when all the members of the DA received ‘Outstanding’ in their Defence Against the Dark Arts OWLs.” Only kidding, Harry will be the only one to get an “Outstanding” mark, because he’s a Mary Sue just the most awesome DADA student ever.

He only got an O because his examiner decided to give him an extra credit question. Without that he would have had an E like many others. Heck, maybe Draco or someone got an O on hir own merit just by doing the required work perfectly.

(Can anybody remember if SPEW is brought up again in this book?)
IIRC the only other mention is when the kids are considering their career plans and Hermione is thinking of bringing SPEW to the next level by other means (which translates to acting on behalf of elves in an official capacity rather than by clandestine means). There is no more mention of the hat-knitting campaign.

I bet it’s times like this that the DA wish they had a second, secret entrance from the ROR. That way they could slip away while Umbridge and her cronies sat uselessly in front of the main entrance.

Harry doesn't really 'get' the ROR like Draco and Neville do when they take control of it.

Umbridge has “an indecent excitement in her voice”.
Kink?
Yes, she and Hermione share that one.

So Kingsley memory-wipes Marietta to stop her telling. You know, this is exactly the sort of mentality that leads DEs to Imperius people and get them to do their bidding: not caring about your victims’ autonomy, just violating their minds when it’s convenient to do so.
QFT. I could have done so with many of your other comments.

And really guys, Umbridge has a list of DA members and access to Veritaserum. Obliviating one witness shouldn’t be enough.
She only thinks she has access to Veritaserum. Severus gave her the fake stuff.

I’m surprised Umbridge thought she could get away with manhandling students like that in front of Dumbledore. I mean, that man’s just so concerned about his students’ welfare.
Visibly concerned. Not when he can get away with not being so.

Maybe they’re all worried she’ll brand the word “COMPLAINER” across their forehead if they speak up.
Ha!

Dumbledore taking the rap is all very noble and everything, but I don’t see how it’s meant to help.
Distraction. Who cares about the students now?

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

"She only thinks she has access to Veritaserum. Severus gave her the fake stuff."

I don't think anybody apart from Severus knows this, though. Maybe Dumbledore, come to think of it, but Kingsley certainly wouldn't, so as far as he's concerned, Umbridge will just be able to force the others to tell her, no matter what he does to Marietta.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

"For the Greater Good," of course.

[charlottehywd.livejournal.com]

Well, when you put it that way... *shudders*

Why are the parts in these books that are meant to be scary not scary at all but parts like this are pure nightmare fuel?

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

* Also, if they are going to mind-wipe Marietta, why not do it to Percy, Fudge and Umbridge too? That would get them out of trouble entirely.

Does anyone ever think to use Memory Charms in an at all sensible way? If coupled with sufficiently powerful and skilled Legilimency, they could be more dangerous than the Imperius Curse (and less illegal). Especially since we know from Slughorn that false memories can be created.

[harpsi-fizz.livejournal.com]

s JKR aware of the implications of what she’s writing? Or did she just throw it in without bothering to think it through?
Chee, now that I think of it, when I first read it, I thought she was speaking of him as an animal. I didn't see it as an offensive statement, nor did I see Hermione's bit about not liking horses as offensive either (more of a weak-ish quip) but when put against the background of "Umbridge is the devil for treating the centaurs like animals"...

Ehhh. I guess the difference is that Umbridge is disrespectful about it (... lot like Hermione was being; it is kinda neat that they have the same middle name). Jury is out on this one because I have no idea the proper protocol we'd have if we had to interact with humanoids that we could consistently communicate with.

Wow, centaurs sure are arrogant and condescending people.
So are wizards. So are muggles. The series has a generous amount of clique-y, exclusive, elitists.

You might enjoy Mike Smith's (http://mike-smith.livejournal.com/215943.html#cutid1) review of this chapter. I haven't read it yet, but he, a Potter Virgin, was the first one who started alerting me to little inconsistencies in the books.

[sunnyskywalker]

Oh, I like that alternate plan for getting out of trouble. Covert Divination study! Dolores's Army! Why are so many wizards so bad at thinking of cover stories? (Dumbledore couldn't have said Pansy magically altered the title on that parchment to frame the innocent Divination study group? And had her Confunded sneakily so even she believed it was true?)

[sunnyskywalker]

Not just a centaur he met four years ago, but a centaur he met four years ago at night in a dark forest while scared of blood-drinking fiends.

Hermione said she got the idea for the coins from the Dark Mark, but used coins instead of their skin. She marked Marietta's skin. Was there no way to link those two, so that any "sneak" would make everyone's coins glow in warning as well as giving the sneak pimples? (Which shouldn't have to be permanent - surely a couple of months would be more than enough for tattling on what started as a simple clandestine study group, as far as many members knew.)

How do you hide beneath a vase, even a dragon-shaped one? Behind, sure, but under?

[oryx_leucoryx]

How do you hide beneath a vase, even a dragon-shaped one? Behind, sure, but under?

Turn it over and get inside (assuming it is big enough)?

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

How do you hide beneath a vase, even a dragon-shaped one? Behind, sure, but under?

If the vase is on a pedestal?

[majorjune.livejournal.com]

Which is why epic fantasy doesn’t really mix with a “secret magical people in this world” plot. Epic fantasy generally centres around mighty empires, big wars and bloody battles, but these things are generally quite noticeable, and any wizards fighting in large-scale conflicts would be found out pretty quickly. So the wizarding war pretty much has to be low-key to make it plausible that Muggles wouldn’t know about it, and the end result is that we get a lot of build-up and very little payoff.

Why didn't the WW just create one total alternate universe for itself, rather than individual pockets of magikal real estate like Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade.

If they wanted to be secret and separate from the nonmagikal world, they should have created a whole alternate world for themselves, a world that perhaps might have a few secret points of crossover to/with the "real" world for whatever reason they'd need to travel back and forth (magikal children of Muggle parents needing to get to Hogwarts, for instance).

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

It can be done.
Jim Butcher's Harry Dresden books have wizards living and fighting wars all without the rest of the world knowing. But it's done much, much better then anything JKR ever wrote. And it's believable.
But then, Butcher actually bothered to write all those unimportant things, like; how magic works and what limits all wizards have.
Jo's above such trivial things.

[snapes-witch.livejournal.com]

(... lot like Hermione was being; it is kinda neat that they have the same middle name)

Except suddenly in DH Hermione's middle name is Jean! Liked Jane much better.

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/* So Harry can remember the names of centaurs he met once four years ago, but in DH he won’t be able to remember a face from a picture from one chapter to the next./

Or know the names of his classmates.

/* Not only is that extremely vindictive, but it doesn’t actually help the DA in any way. It didn’t stop them being betrayed in the first place, and it didn’t alert them to the fact that Umbridge was coming to get them./

Apparently, that wasn’t the point. The point was that Hermione got to punish Marietta for disloyalty and feel all self-righteous about it. Who cares that it was actually her stupid list that she so stupidly pinned to the wall that really sealed their fate? Saint Hermione is never wrong! Just be glad that she doesn’t brand your skin like Voldemort does with the Death Eaters or cruelly punish you for perceived betrayal like he constantly does – oh, wait…

Yeah, Hermione, it really doesn’t look good when you’re starting to look like *Voldemort.* Remember when Hermione told Harry about her inspiration from the coins and we were supposed to think that she was more moral than Tom because instead of marking people’s skin, she enchanted the coins instead? Yeah, that’s all starting to look like a joke right now.

/* So Kingsley memory-wipes Marietta to stop her telling. You know, this is exactly the sort of mentality that leads DEs to Imperius people and get them to do their bidding: not caring about your victims’ autonomy, just violating their minds when it’s convenient to do so./

So, not only will Marietta have to live with the scars for the rest of her life, she won’t even remember *why* she was scarred in the first place. This whole situation just keeps getting worse and worse…

/* Also, if they are going to mind-wipe Marietta, why not do it to Percy, Fudge and Umbridge too? That would get them out of trouble entirely./

Because…uh…Dumbledore and Kingsley still needed them to do…uh…

I really don’t have an answer for that.

/* I’m surprised Umbridge thought she could get away with manhandling students like that in front of Dumbledore. I mean, that man’s just so concerned about his students’ welfare./

Yes, it’s wonderful how he sounds all angry and protective when Umbridge is shaking Marietta, but couldn’t care less when Harry tells him that he suspects Draco of nearly killing Ron and Katie in HBP. Or when he gets annoyed that Harry dared to be more concerned about his best friend almost dying than getting that pointless memory from Slughorn.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

Did anyone ever heal Marietta? What exactly does she know about what happened?

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

* “‘A gorgeous centaur...’ sighed Parvati.” I must say that, given the, erm, associations of centaurs in classical mythology, this sort of thing rather creeps me out. Is JKR aware of the implications of what she’s writing? Or did she just throw it in without bothering to think it through?
It's unbelievably squicky. I was willing to overlook it and think of HP centaurs as totally different from the Greek mythology ones.
That is, I was willing up until the point they took Umbridge into the woods. After that there's no way I can read about Parvati and Lavender fawning over Firenze and not shudder.

* Although everybody always goes on about how smart Hermione is, and from what we see of her she doesn’t seem noticeably worse in DADA than she does in other subjects, so if she only got an “E” in her Defence OWL, that’s probably because Harry’s not a very good teacher... :p
I always considered it DD's doing. That he influenced the examiners so only The Chosen One gets "O" in Defence OWL.
It would give the boy something he's "best" at and make him thing he was "destined" to fight the Dark Arts.
Beside, it's not like he'll get to use it later in life is it? And there's no guaranty he'll even live sit NEWTs.
Why not throw him a bone now? /Gods, I hate Dumbledore.

* Hermione’s Patronus is an otter, even though she’s one of the least otter-like people in the series. On a Doylist level, this is probably because JKR’s favourite animal is the otter, so her author avatar will have one as her Patronus, obviously. On a Watsonian level, perhaps Patronuses don’t represent what your personality is like, but what you need to guard you and keep you out of trouble. So Hermione’s is an otter because she needs fun-loving people around her to stop her getting too serious about everything, Ron’s is a weasel because he needs smart people to compensate for his mental inadequacy, and Harry’s is a stag because he needs a proper father-figure to help him, not an abusive one like Uncle Vernon or a scheming and manipulative one like Dumbledore. Patronuses which change when somebody falls in love show that their caster needs to be loved by their intended in order to feel happy and secure again.
That's a very interesting explanation. I very much like the Watsonian explanation but I fear the Doylist is the true one.

* Umbridge is here! I bet it’s times like this that the DA wish they had a second, secret entrance from the ROR. That way they could slip away while Umbridge and her cronies sat uselessly in front of the main entrance.

I bet they also wish they had some way to see where Umbridge and The Inquisitorial Squad were at all times. If they had something like a map perhaps they could have had somebody watch over it for the duration of DA time.
Oh, and it's not like they had Fred and George around. While the two of them are unquestionably bullies with horrible ethics, they are frighteningly good at loud attention getting magics.
Why not have them booby-trap the corridor leading to RoR? So, if Umbridge and The Inquisitorial Squad come that way all goes to Hell?
Or even better combine the map and booby-traps. Have Fred and George make some horribly loud, remotely controlled "prank" on the other side of the castle. And the moment you see somebody coming to get the DA make it go off.
Umbridge would go to look and the DA would have time to go away.

* When I first read this scene, I didn’t really mind the “Sneak” curse, because I just sort of assumed that Madam Pomfrey managed to find a way of removing them after a couple of weeks. Then we found out that she still had the scars years later and... yikes.
It's a bit silly. Are we to believe that all highly skilled and experienced adults in the castle were unable to take the "jinx" off?
Madam Pomfrey who can regrow bones? Flitwick who is Marietta's head of house? Snape?

* I’m surprised Umbridge thought she could get away with manhandling students like that in front of Dumbledore. I mean, that man’s just so concerned about his students’ welfare.
Yup, she should have know that only Dumbledore is allowed to endanger, put them in risk of serious harm, or actively plan the death of his students.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

It's a bit silly. Are we to believe that all highly skilled and experienced adults in the castle were unable to take the "jinx" off?
Madam Pomfrey who can regrow bones? Flitwick who is Marietta's head of house? Snape?

My thought was that the jinx was particularly difficult to take off because Hermione used Marietta's signature -- that the magic was convinced that it had Marietta's consent to do this if she talked about the DA. Perhaps the jinx used Marietta's own magic to prevent itself from being removed, as well as Hermione's.

[oryx_leucoryx]

It's a bit silly. Are we to believe that all highly skilled and experienced adults in the castle were unable to take the "jinx" off?
Madam Pomfrey who can regrow bones? Flitwick who is Marietta's head of house? Snape?

Or the healers at St Mungo's, sometime during the summer? Unless they refused to take her case once they realized she betrayed the Chosen One.

Marietta's real crime?

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

So, what's Marietta's real crime? It's loyalty to her mother, rather than to her schoolmates. I have a lot of sympathy with this. If I knew my Mom would get in trouble at work because of a group I got dragged to at school, I might betray that group, too. Particularly if, like Marietta, I was brought into the group as an unwilling chaperone, and if a regulation had been passed making the group seem illegal. Basically, Marietta's punished for being a law-abiding kid who loves her mom. Because J.K. Rowling "hates a traitor". It's simplistic, schoolchild morality - something I thought kids were supposed to start outgrowing at 16 or so.

My two cents!

Re: Marietta's real crime?

[eviltracey.livejournal.com]

Marietta's real crime is being Cho Chang's friend, because JKR needed to make Cho look bad. (I thought that it was great that Cho came to Marietta's defense, myself.)

If she had come into Dumbledore's Army as, say, Ginny's friend, or Hermione's friend (wait, does Hermione have any friends other than Harry and Ron?), I think she might have fared differently.

[https://me.yahoo.com/a/gNLVidA.xeLuPiOU_2B_USM.HYNFjA--#b0b6b (from livejournal.com)]

Hermione left the membership list pinned to the ROR wall. Well done, Hermione.
Good point!
And on a similar note (if a belated one), whose bright idea was it to take a photo of all the members of the top-secret organisation which was meant to be the world's last hope against Voldemort - one in which they're all there, smiling and waving at the camera and clearly identifiable? It's just as well that it was kept under Moody's constant vigilance, I suppose ...

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Oh, come on now. Hermione a sociopath?!??

(Puts up 'heroine Hermione' icon in the lady's defence.)

dictionary.com tells me that a 'sociopath' is someone who 'lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience'. That is *not* Hermione Granger. She's the one out of all the characters who worries the most about the plight of the other magical races, the muggle-born and so forth. Who fights - like the rest of the good guys - Voldemort and the Death Eaters. She's not a sociopath, nowhere close.

She doesn't deliberately intend for Umbridge to be 'hurt' by the centaurs ... she only wanted them to 'drive her off'. Full stop. Nothing more than that. I think Hermione just didn't fully discern the depth of Umbridge's xenophobia. She tries to stop the Inquisitor from digging her hole with the centaurs ... "Don't call them that!" and "Be quiet!". But Umbridge doesn't listen.

Umbridge has “an indecent excitement in her voice”. I wonder if this is how Hermione would sound to those on the receiving end of her little schemes.

To answer your question - no. I don't think Hermione would sound like that to others. Furthermore I can't see anywhere in the text where she does. So there's your answer. :-)

I don't have a problem with Hermione's centaur solution. It's not like anyone else came up with a way to save Harry from being tortured. And she tried to stop Umbridge from riling up the centaurs so much.

The Marietta thing *is* a black mark on Hermione's record. It's not canon that the acne was permanent - that's just Rowling interview flotsam - but it was still present 3+ months later when the kids were heading back to Hogwarts at the start of HBP, under heavy makeup. Maybe it disappeared the very next day. :-)

I'm more concerned about about the fact that the whole jinx thing did absolutely nothing in *preventing* betrayal ... it was only designed to punish the betrayer after the event. Which is pretty slack. This is perhaps the first big sign of the 'dumbing down' that Hermione would receive in spades for the final two books of the series. :-( Don't blame Hermione for being stupid and vindictive; blame her author. :-)

So Harry can remember the names of centaurs he met once four years ago, but in DH he won’t be able to remember a face from a picture from one chapter to the next. *coughplotconveniencecough*

Heh. It's amazing - it's horrible - how DH regressed the kids and the story so much, isn't it? Making the book something of a caricature of the 'serious' ending we all thought we were going to receive. A hero who is as thick as a brick, the 'plan' from Dumbledore which was so stupid only Rowling loyalists could possibly accept it, the Trio sneaking everywhere with invisibility cloak or 2nd-year Polyjuice potion, etc.

Umbridge is here! I bet it’s times like this that the DA wish they had a second, secret entrance from the ROR. That way they could slip away while Umbridge and her cronies sat uselessly in front of the main entrance.

Well, while the ROR's ability to conjure secret entrances was yet another deus ex machina that Rowling materialised at a whim to make her sad story work, she at least presented it as a surprise that Neville & Co. *learnt*, that they hadn't known before. It wasn't flat-out stupidity.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

dictionary.com tells me that a 'sociopath' is someone who 'lacks a sense of moral responsibility or social conscience'. That is *not* Hermione Granger. She's the one out of all the characters who worries the most about the plight of the other magical races, the muggle-born and so forth. Who fights - like the rest of the good guys - Voldemort and the Death Eaters. She's not a sociopath, nowhere close.

I also find "a lack of empathy and remorse, shallow emotions, egocentricity, and deceptiveness" or "a pervasive pattern of disregard for, and violation of, the rights of others."

Hermione's also the only character who keeps people imprisoned in jars or engages in relationship violence. And her method of "saving" the house-elves did not involve engaging with them, studying them, learning about them, just trying to set them "free" with the assumption that they'd be fine afterwards.

[mmmarcusz.livejournal.com]

* And really guys, Umbridge has a list of DA members and access to Veritaserum. Obliviating one witness shouldn’t be enough.

Why is nothing in these books - Myrtle's death, Cedric's death, the Petrifications, Harry's near-killing by Dementors, Crouch Jr's actions, Crouch Jr being faceraped, Sirius's escape, Quirrell's subterfuge, Quirrell's death, Dumbledore's death - ever investigated by any kind of police force? The Headmaster really seems to have complete power.

[sunnyskywalker]

It's even worse. Myrtle's death happened when Dippet was headmaster, so either Dumbledore had the power to stop investigations even before he was in charge, or the ww just plain doesn't investigate things that happen on Hogwarts grounds (or anywhere?).

[xerox78.livejournal.com]

On a Watsonian level, perhaps Patronuses don’t represent what your personality is like, but what you need to guard you and keep you out of trouble. [snip] Ron’s is a weasel because he needs smart people to compensate for his mental inadequacy

Isn't Ron's Patronus a dog, though? I think Arthur's the one with the weasel.

[for-diddled.livejournal.com]

I was writing from memory, there, so you could be right. Or knowing JKR, he might have been assigned both a weasel and a dog in different interviews.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

I'd like to consider another angle of the Marietta issue. What if she'd refused to sign Hermione's parchment, then turned the DA in? Would that change our views of her, at all?

I would guess (yes, just a guess) that Cho would still ask Marietta to come to meetings, in that circumstance. I don't think anyone but Hermione would have considered refusing to sign a deal-breaker, so they'd probably let her in if she agreed to go.

So, would a Marietta who hadn't signed, but who still turned in the DA after a few months of meetings she attended -- is she still a traitor? Any less of a traitor?

What if she didn't sign *and* didn't attend?

Thoughts? She's still turning in Cho, some fellow Ravenclaws, and other classmates, after all.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

That's interesting, but it's awfully speculative. Based on what we know of Hermione, I don't think she would have allowed anyone who didn't sign to attend any meetings. I think Harry, Ron and the twins would have backed Hermione up.

And - Marietta did give in to peer pressure. She signed.

If she had not signed, she would not have been at the meetings, and would not have known what went on in them unless Cho had told her. In that case, I can envision a passionate argument or two with Cho in the Ravenclaw dorm. If she then turned in the DA, I think she would be betraying her friend, but would probably argue that she was doing it for Cho's own good.

But this is all very speculative! What do you think of my argument, above, that Cho's chief crime is giving in to peer pressure? As I said, I honestly don't think she'd have been allowed to attend any meetings if she hadn't signed the parchment.