deathtocapslock | OOTP Chapter Twenty-Seven: "The Centaur and the Sneak"

for-diddled.livejournal.com posting in

* First of all, sorry this is so late, I'm afraid I've been a bit busy preparing to go back to university.

* This is the chapter in which Hermione officially crosses the line from “occasionally strident and self-righteous but on the whole likeable and sympathetic character” to “dangerous sociopath”.

* “‘A gorgeous centaur...’ sighed Parvati.” I must say that, given the, erm, associations of centaurs in classical mythology, this sort of thing rather creeps me out. Is JKR aware of the implications of what she’s writing? Or did she just throw it in without bothering to think it through?

* Hermione’s dropping dark hints about what Umbridge is going to do, revealing the plot like any good author avatar would.

* So Harry can remember the names of centaurs he met once four years ago, but in DH he won’t be able to remember a face from a picture from one chapter to the next. *coughplotconveniencecough*

* Wow, centaurs sure are arrogant and condescending people. No wonder Dumbledore felt enough of an affinity with Firenze to hire him as a teacher. He recognises a kindred spirit when he sees one.

* If I were JKR, I’d be hesitant to dignify the wizarding conflicts with the term “war”. They’re more like gang wars than what most people would think of as warfare. Which is why epic fantasy doesn’t really mix with a “secret magical people in this world” plot. Epic fantasy generally centres around mighty empires, big wars and bloody battles, but these things are generally quite noticeable, and any wizards fighting in large-scale conflicts would be found out pretty quickly. So the wizarding war pretty much has to be low-key to make it plausible that Muggles wouldn’t know about it, and the end result is that we get a lot of build-up and very little payoff.

* Firenze spends the whole lesson teaching them something which he doesn’t expect them to do anyway, and which is anyway a bit uncertain and useless. So he’s about as good as the average Hogwarts teacher, then.

* “Indeed, Harry sometimes wondered how Umbridge was going to react when all the members of the DA received ‘Outstanding’ in their Defence Against the Dark Arts OWLs.” Only kidding, Harry will be the only one to get an “Outstanding” mark, because he’s ~~a Mary Sue~~ just the most awesome DADA student ever.

* Although everybody always goes on about how smart Hermione is, and from what we see of her she doesn’t seem noticeably worse in DADA than she does in other subjects, so if she only got an “E” in her Defence OWL, that’s probably because Harry’s not a very good teacher... :p

* Seamus’ Patronus “was definitely something hairy”. *mind goes into the gutter*

* Hermione’s Patronus is an otter, even though she’s one of the least otter-like people in the series. On a Doylist level, this is probably because JKR’s favourite animal is the otter, so her author avatar will have one as her Patronus, obviously. On a Watsonian level, perhaps Patronuses don’t represent what your personality is like, but what you need to guard you and keep you out of trouble. So Hermione’s is an otter because she needs fun-loving people around her to stop her getting too serious about everything, Ron’s is a weasel because he needs smart people to compensate for his mental inadequacy, and Harry’s is a stag because he needs a proper father-figure to help him, not an abusive one like Uncle Vernon or a scheming and manipulative one like Dumbledore. Patronuses which change when somebody falls in love show that their caster needs to be loved by their intended in order to feel happy and secure again.

* Dobby appears, wearing “his usual eight woollen hats”. I quite like the suggestion that it was this sight that made Hermione drop her SPEW activities, as she saw that her hats were all going to this one elf, and that they were therefore pretty useless from a freeing people standpoint. (Can anybody remember if SPEW is brought up again in this book?)

* Umbridge is here! I bet it’s times like this that the DA wish they had a second, secret entrance from the ROR. That way they could slip away while Umbridge and her cronies sat uselessly in front of the main entrance.

* Draco’s concealed “beneath an ugly dragon-shaped vase”, to match his ugly and monstrous soul.

* Umbridge has “an indecent excitement in her voice”. I wonder if this is how Hermione would sound to those on the receiving end of her little schemes.

* When I first read this scene, I didn’t really mind the “Sneak” curse, because I just sort of assumed that Madam Pomfrey managed to find a way of removing them after a couple of weeks. Then we found out that she still had the scars years later and... yikes.

* Not only is that extremely vindictive, but it doesn’t actually help the DA in any way. It didn’t stop them being betrayed in the first place, and it didn’t alert them to the fact that Umbridge was coming to get them. If this had been a one-off incident and the curse hadn’t been permanent, I’d be inclined to put it down to youthful lack of thought, but when you compare it to some of Hermione’s other actions (her treatment of Rita Skeeter, or sending those canaries after Ron), it seems like a rather worrying pattern is starting to emerge...

* Minerva gets all self-righteous about Willy Widdershins being let off. I wonder whether she feels the same about Mundungus Fletcher, or whether petty crooks are OK just as long as they’re on her side.

* Also, she’s not above a bit of petty corruption herself, since she lets Gryffindor Quidditch players off homework when a match is coming up.

* So Kingsley memory-wipes Marietta to stop her telling. You know, this is exactly the sort of mentality that leads DEs to Imperius people and get them to do their bidding: not caring about your victims’ autonomy, just violating their minds when it’s convenient to do so.

* Also, if they are going to mind-wipe Marietta, why not do it to Percy, Fudge and Umbridge too? That would get them out of trouble entirely.

* And really guys, Umbridge has a list of DA members and access to Veritaserum. Obliviating one witness shouldn’t be enough.

* I’m surprised Umbridge thought she could get away with manhandling students like that in front of Dumbledore. I mean, that man’s just so concerned about his students’ welfare.

* Hermione left the membership list pinned to the ROR wall. Well done, Hermione. Not that any DA members will point out this idiocy to her. Nor will they point out the fact that her defensive jinx was (a) vindictive and useless, and (b) not told about to them when they joined up. Maybe they’re all worried she’ll brand the word “COMPLAINER” across their forehead if they speak up.

* Dumbledore taking the rap is all very noble and everything, but I don’t see how it’s meant to help. Fudge can still charge the pupils with attending, even if they didn’t organise it, and now Dumbledore’s ensured that he’s going to be on the run and unable to give them any help.

* Face-scarring aside, I actually quite liked this chapter. It was quite well-paced, and I never really felt like I was wading through pages of filler. It will be interesting to see if the other chapters will be more like this now the book’s reaching its climax, or whether the quality will slip back down again.

Current Mood: nervous
Current Location: The Headmaster's Office

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

From:

sunnyskywalker

...or she worried that if she kept talking, something worse than pimples would happen. We really just do not know, which is my point. You can't say that Marietta definitely had a good reason - but you can't say that she's definitely a no-good sneak either.

Cho might not know the real reason either, depending on how much of Marietta's memory got wiped. She might have a feeling that there is a good reason, based on her knowing Marietta, but not be able to justify it, and tries to split the difference with lovely person/mistake.

I'm trying to translate this into Muggle terms: say you joined a semi-clandestine martial arts club at school because the PE teacher isn't teaching the subject very well, and promise not to tell about it. Would you take this as a super-serious oath, or possibly rank it as low as having a secret handshake? You're a bit nervous to start, especially since the student leader says you really have to know this stuff because he saw Osama bin Laden rise from the dead last summer with help from Daniel Pearl, who was actually a secret Taliban agent all along and is not dead. (You have no proof but his word on this.) The government officials are incompetent/in denial/in cahoots, so you have to take matters into your own hands, basically. Also two of his older friends threaten people with bodily harm. Then the club becomes illegal. Then your club leader starts teaching you how to resist arrest. And then when you tell an authority about this, one of the club members splashes your face with acid so the scars spell out "sneak" for (at minimum) months. It turns out this punishment was planned since the very first meeting, when you thought you were still joining a study club.

Would you call that acid-tosser not so bad really since you were far from innocent?

From:

nx74defiant.livejournal.com

Perfect example!

From:

sharaz-jek.livejournal.com

This is brilliant.

From:

for-diddled.livejournal.com

"especially since the student leader says you really have to know this stuff because he saw Osama bin Laden rise from the dead last summer with help from Daniel Pearl, who was actually a secret Taliban agent all along and is not dead."

To be fair to Harry, suggesting that you saw somebody coming back from the dead isn't quite as silly in a world where everybody has seen ghosts, portraits of dead people that can still interact with current events just like they could when they were alive, and various similar examples of the dead continuing to influence things. Perhaps a closer example would be a famous terrorist who went missing a decade ago and who hasn't been heard of since, but who was never conclusively proved to be dead?

From:

sunnyskywalker

Maybe some of the Nazis who took off for South America?

It would help if Potterverse rules were consistent, too. I think that no one would be surprised by Ghostimort or Portraitmort, but bodily resurrection seems to be something else... maybe. *tears out hair*

From:

madderbrad.livejournal.com

Your analogy is way too slanted pro-Marietta. The initial meeting of the D.A. was much more open than that. Everything was laid out, all the reasons to set up the group - learn how to defend ourselves properly, pass our OWLs, Lord V is back, etc. Yes, some people initially doubted that the dark lord had returned ... and they raised those doubts and were answered.

It's also noted that Umbridge is "trying to actively prevent us from using defensive spells", so that's why we need the group. Oh, and that's why we'll keep this a secret, is everyone agreed on that too?

Marietta knew that the group would be viewed negatively by the authorities (if not outright illegal at that time). But she still signed up. Yes, her friend Cho was pressing her to join. But a wand wasn't held to her head. Other people had voiced objections of various sorts.

From:

sunnyskywalker

Their questions were answered with "yes, I really saw it, just like the article said, and my best friends will back me up, oh and also some of my dorm mates heard half-garbled rumors several years ago about some other stuff." That isn't answering, that's repeating the same things everyone already read from the same sources. Maybe Harry's great charisma persuaded them, or maybe some (like Zacharias) decided they wanted to join for other reasons anyway and would drop the issue. Either way, it's still basically Harry's word.

And if the group is not something Umbridge would like particularly but perfectly within the rules, then signing up and pinky-swearing not to tell isn't exactly a serious oath, any more than joining a secret study club with a secret handshake would be in a Muggle school. That's what Marietta signed up for. Feeling iffy about signing up for a perfectly allowable club because one teacher/official won't like it, but giving it a chance because it's technically okay and you want to support your friend, is not proof of bad character. Changing your mind once the club becomes illegal and you get to know everyone in it better and get a better idea of what the club is about (in part, overcoming prison guards) isn't necessarily either - it could just be a sign of someone processing new information and freaking out.

The thing is we just don't know enough to say definitively one way or the other. We do know that Marietta didn't sprint over to Umbridge's office to tell the minute the club became illegal, which you'd think she would have if she were so gung-ho about betrayal and getting brownie points as you're painting her. "I just wanted to have more hours of stuff to tell you about" wouldn't be a good excuse if Umbridge asked why she didn't tell right away instead of participating in illegal activity - she'd know it would look like she was actually fine with doing illegal stuff, and only told to save her own neck, which isn't much of a recommendation or something likely to reflect as well on her mother as just going to Umbridge right away. For whatever reasons, she appears to have gone through some conflict before making that decision. So I can't see her as totally, unequivocally guilty in this situation.

From:

lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com

It's also noted that Umbridge is "trying to actively prevent us from using defensive spells", so that's why we need the group.

As has been noted in this community, though, Umbridge appears to have chosen a book which promotes pacifism. From Hermione's comments on Slinkhard's textbook:

ʹHe says ʺcounter‐jinxʺ is just a name people give their jinxes when they want to make them sound more acceptable.ʹ

ʹMr Slinkhard doesnʹt like jinxes, does he?

To someone who only knows Umbridge from class, Umbridge might well come across as opposing fighting in general. It isn't just a matter of "defensive spells," no matter how Ernie phrased it; the best defense is a good offense.

My point: Someone could come to the conclusion that Umbridge is right to prevent people from using defensive(/offensive) spells, if they didn't believe that Voldemort was back. And as Sunnyskywalker said, the Trio didn't exactly overcome any doubts on that score; they just dismissed them.

(mutters) If Umbridge had any sense, and if JKR had any *talent*, Umbridge would have spent some of the time teaching first-aid magic and shields that don't reflect spells back on the caster, just nothing that could be used offensively. But nooo, we can't have anything that interesting.

/tangent

From:

oryx_leucoryx

(mutters) If Umbridge had any sense, and if JKR had any *talent*, Umbridge would have spent some of the time teaching first-aid magic and shields that don't reflect spells back on the caster, just nothing that could be used offensively. But nooo, we can't have anything that interesting.

/tangent

How is 'Methods of Rationality' going? I never got around to reading all of it but Yudkovsky seems to have a good grasp on what would make an intelligent villain.

From:

lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com

It's being updated all too slowly, but it's still brilliant. it's up to 77 chapters, now. Umbridge hasn't appeared -- well, it's still Harry's first year, early spring.

From:

sunnyskywalker

Now that would have made her even scarier! Then she would seem quite reasonable. Learn to shield yourself, heal, and maybe disarm people, and then you should have enough time to escape and call the authorities who are trained to deal with serious villains. Plus she could probably legitimately say that the past DADA teachers have neglected the defense side of things (apart from Lupin teaching them defense against creatures - useful, but not against humans - and "Moody" semi-teaching them to resist Imperius). It would make the conflict much more interesting if you knew there was something not right about Umbridge, but the characters couldn't find a good crime to hang on her.

And notably, isn't the first thing Harry has the DA practice Expelliarmus? Even he thinks they haven't learned enough non-violent defensive spells, and agrees that they're useful. (Learning mostly harmless spells like that probably made the club seem less iffy for the first couple of lessons, too, for anyone with concerns. How much trouble could you reasonably get into for a technically illegal club if all you were doing was Expelliarmus, one might think?) If Umbridge had set them to practicing disarming etc. in class as well as reading theory, Harry would have to think harder to come up with justifications for learning things more harmful than stunners or Petrificus Totalis.

Now I wish we had that version :(

From:

madderbrad.livejournal.com

(mutters) If Umbridge had any sense, and if JKR had any *talent*, Umbridge would have spent some of the time teaching first-aid magic and shields that don't reflect spells back on the caster, just nothing that could be used offensively. But nooo, we can't have anything that interesting.

Well, it's a Rowling book ... we couldn't have a villain that *clever*. The villains' I.Q.s had to match Rowling's plots and boy hero. Hence their being thick as posts. :-(

Well, at least it helped all the readers know that Umbridge was just 100% useless.

From:

detritius.livejournal.com

It's also notable that the DA has two out of the three "warning signs" of a group that is likely to become violent: a charismatic leader and an apocalyptic worldview. Their leader, whose word they are supposed to accept without question or risk the wrath of other followers, talks continually about a coming fight that they have to be armed and ready for, painting themselves and "the enemy" in black-and-white, us-versus-them terms. The group has a theology of violence, and group members are encouraged to be ready to practice violence as a first resort. And while the group is not socially encapsulation, the third warning sign, swearing members to secrecy, as well as the illegality of the group, certainly creates the kind of boundary issues that can lead to members becoming isolated from non-members.

So, not slanting this in anyone's favor, but, in sociological terms, the DA was at the very least a group to watch out for. (Not as much as the Order of the Phoenix, but that's a whole other post.) Does that make Marietta turning them in right? Not necessarily. But it's also not as if she turned in a perfectly innocent study group, either. There are legitimate reasons one might be wary of the DA.

From:

sunnyskywalker

I think that's probably the best explanation for why Cho forgives Marietta: she understands why Marietta would have concerns - they apparently discussed at least one of them - even though she disagrees on how wrong the DA actually is, and so can see Marietta's turning them in as a totally reasonable "mistake" (being too worried, basically).

From:

madderbrad.livejournal.com

... talks continually about a coming fight that they have to be armed and ready for, painting themselves and "the enemy" in black-and-white, us-versus-them terms.

And that's exactly what it was. Harry & co. were *right*, don't forget. Just because a self-defence club has parallels with a militant cult doesn't necessarily make it so.

... group members are encouraged to be ready to practice violence as a first resort.

I think you've being unfair there. I remember they practised shields (protego) and also the Patronus spell was a bit item; a spell that's purely defensive. And quite non-violent.

I don't buy it. From the very start the DA was formed for self-defence. It was a 'Defence Association', even if they adopted Ginny's silly idea of "Dumbledore's Army" for the name (if I'm remembering the book correctly).

From:

oryx_leucoryx

And that's exactly what it was. Harry & co. were *right*, don't forget.

That's not the question. The question is how can anyone who wasn't with Harry in all his (mis)adventures tell. All Marietta is getting is 'trust our leader' and threats (from the twins at the very least) if she doesn't. Marietta had every reason in the world to wonder if she is in a study group, a self-defense club or she was tricked into joining a terrorist organization. Often people joining terrorist organizations believe they are in fact joining a defensive group.

As for the spells they learn - Protego as it is described in OOTP is violent - it reflects the attacker's spell. In DH it works differently. (And they only learn the Patronus on the meeting Umbridge busted.)

From:

madderbrad.livejournal.com

Marietta had every reason in the world to wonder if she is in a study group, a self-defense club or she was tricked into joining a terrorist organization.

But that's just not correct -

ʹWell… erm… well, you know why youʹre here. Erm… well, Harry here had the idea ‐ I meanʹ (Harry had thrown her a sharp look) ʹI had the idea ‐ that it migbe good if people who wanted to study Defence Against the Dark Arts ‐ and I mean, really study it, you know, not the rubbish that Umbridge is doing with us -

Reason #1 - learn the material in the syllabus that Umbridge isn't teaching.

ʹYou want to pass your Defence Against the Dark Arts OWL too, though, I bet?ʹ said Michael Corner, who was watching her closely.

ʹOf course I do,ʹ said Hermione at once.

Reason #2 - to pass the OWLs.

ʹBut more than that, I want to be properly trained in defence because… because…ʺ she took a great breath and finished, ʹbecause Lord Voldemort is back.ʹ

Reason #3 - to defend oneself against the bad guys.

Reasons asked for and given.

If you're going to ignore the proffered reasons and say "no, the D.A. was a neo-terrorist organisation regardless", well, why ask the question in the first place? Or bother about what's in the actual canon? :-)

Marietta didn't ask any questions, and these three reasons were put up as straight reasons for the formation of the group. She knew full well what she was getting into.

Protego as it is described in OOTP is violent - it reflects the attacker's spell.

It reflects the attacker's violence. As in the *attacker's* violence. Not the violence of the person casting the Protego.

I.e. the DA were NOT using violence as a 'first resort'.

From:

lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com

The fact that the people starting the club gave good reasons to start it doesn't mean that they didn't intend to (ultimately) start a different kind of group than what they initially said. There was reason to start a Defense group, obviously. Equally obviously, if they intended to start something more sinister, and draw people in, they wouldn't present it as something sinister and violent. They'd present it as something innocent.

I'm sorry, madderbrad, but you can't argue that Marietta couldn't be worried about being *tricked* into a terrorist organization simply on the grounds that she were originally told it was an innocent group. There's a reason why we're using the word "tricked."

Marietta didn't ask any questions, and these three reasons were put up as straight reasons for the formation of the group. She knew full well what she was getting into.

She knew full well what she had been *told*. She did *not* know whether the club organizers were being honest with her.

Besides, I don't think she needed to ask any questions. First, I don't think she had too much reason to worry -- the club wasn't illegal for that first meeting.

More to the point, if she *was* suspicious, what should she have asked? "Excuse me, could you reassure me that you aren't starting an army to overturn the Ministry?"

How would her asking that question have helped? Even if it were answered seriously... if you were asking someone that was actually starting such an army, and they were hiding that fact, they wouldn't admit it just because you asked!

From:

lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com

I don't buy it. From the very start the DA was formed for self-defence. It was a 'Defence Association', even if they adopted Ginny's silly idea of "Dumbledore's Army" for the name (if I'm remembering the book correctly).

At the beginning, it was sold as a Defense group. Then, at the first meeting, Cho proposed the name, "the Defence Association." Ginny immediately countered her with "Dumbledore's Army." You see how Marietta could have gotten the idea that the Gryffindors were aiming to make the club more about going on the offense, once it had been established?

From:

madderbrad.livejournal.com

AHA! IT'S ALL GINNY'S FAULT!!!

Ahem. Sorry. My anti-Ginny bias showing. :-)

Well, we're told that there was 'a good deal of appreciative murmuring and laughter' when dear Ginny mooted the name, so I think that 'laughter' might have told Marietta that she wasn't exactly signing up to be a front-line terrorist.

And then they learnt defensive spells like the Protego and Patronus, and Experlliarmus. Nothing warlike there.

From:

lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com

You missed some spells. They also practiced the Impediment Jinx/Curse (it's called both), and Stunning. We see this in the meeting just before Christmas, I might add, when Harry says they won't be doing anything new, so they worked on stunning people for multiple meetings.

Expelliarmous, Impedimenta, and Stunning are all offense, not defense.

Expelliarmus is potentially the mildest, but it's only mild if the wand is returned. On what basis would you expect a wand to be returned, if you're in a *real* fight, not a practice duel? You argued that Marietta's actions were particularly bad because she risked getting the members' wands broken, so surely, to be consistent, you have to agree that taking someone's wand in a fight is at least some kind of offense, not merely defense.

We see Impedimenta used a couple of times, and it generally knocks people over. Sometimes, very violently:

Not until somebody in the vicinity yelled ʹImpedimenta!ʹ and he was knocked over backwards by the force of the spell, did he abandon the attempt to punch every inch of Malfoy he could reach.

--

ʹImpedimenta!ʹ he said, pointing his wand at Snape, who was knocked off his feet halfway through a dive towards his own fallen wand.

--

...before she could complete the spell the door had burst open and the two Death Eaters had come hurtling inside.

With a cry of triumph, both yelled: ʹIMPEDIMENTA!ʹ

Harry, Hermione and Neville were all knocked backwards off their feet; Neville was thrown over the desk and disappeared from view; Hermione smashed into a bookcase and was promptly deluged in a cascade of heavy books; the back of Harryʹs head slammed into the stone wall behind him, tiny lights burst in front of his eyes and for a moment he was too dizzy and bewildered to react.

I will admit that the kids in the DA aren't good at Impedimenta yet, since they don't get out the cushions for people to fall on until they move on to Stunning. However, these examples show what Impedimenta does when wielded by people who are better at it.

Stunning is also unquestionably an assault. It knocks people out, and four stunners together sent McGonagall to the *hospital*.

There may be other spells mentioned, too; I haven't had time to look through the whole book. However, this is enough to show that they're not being purely defensive.

From:

madderbrad.livejournal.com

Sure, the DA learnt some *mildly* offensive spells. They didn't try to learn the truly offensive spells that 'terrorists' would use - the Killing curse, cutting spells, reductos, etc. Nope, a stunner was the worst they practised; a spell that had no permanent effect.

And then the other half of the syllabus was purely defensive.

OOTP Chapter Twenty-Seven: "The Centaur and the Sneak"

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