[identity profile] terri-testing.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] deathtocapslock
On the one hand, the Patronus charm has the reputation of being so difficult that many adults can't master it; on the other, not only does super-speshul Harry do so at thirteen, but so do many of his friends two years later--including not only the incalculable Luna, but the never-top-of-the-class Ron, Seamus, and Ernest. Nor can we ascribe their success to Harry's wonderful teaching, for in DH Arthur Weasley and Dolores Umbridge both use the charm with no problem under stressful conditions. Producing, in both cases, fully corporeal patroni, not merely silver puffs.

In fact, we don't have a single canon instance of someone trying and ultimately failing to master the spell. Why, then, its formidable reputation? And why did Harry have such trouble learning it?



Someone pointed out in the "Marietta's True Crime" discussion below that Harry's teaching the DA to cast the Patronus Charm might have alarmed Marietta about the group's intentions, since the only use she knows for the charm is to repel Dementors--the Ministry's authorized Azkaban guards. (Yes, it can also be used against Lethifolds--but not only are those beasts quite rare, they are tropical. Maybe southeast Asian schools of wizardry would teach it as a matter of course to their older students, but northern European ones? No.)

So I posit that the Patronus Charm is not and has not been part of the Hogwarts general curriculum, and that in Britain the only ones who have generally been taught it are those expected to have a need to deal regularly with Dementors: selected law enforcement personnel. Think about this a moment. Aurors would surely be trained to use the spell (summoning Dementors to take custody of the Dark wizards they catch). So too would prison guards. And quite possibly no one else.

Now, people might apply to become an Auror out of romanticism or adventurousness, a desire to serve or a desire to gain power, and they have to be near the very top of their year (five NEWTS) to get INTO the program. But I imagine that prison guards enjoy about the status in the WW that they do in ours. In which case most of the people applying would be on about the magical level of Stan Shunpike: magical drop outs with at most an OWL or two. If they were qualified for a better job, they'd be off doing it.

And Stan, and those on his level of intelligence and competence, WOULD find the Patronus charm (among many others) nearly impossible to learn.

Then it would follow that so as far as the wizarding public would know, the Patronus charm is easily mastered by those wizards and witches at an Auror-trainee's elite level--and everyone below that level is expected to struggle with it.

Now, of course, the OotP, unlike the general population, uses the Patronus Charm to communicate. If the supposition is correct that the general population has never been taught that charm, then Dumbledore may have divined the secondary use way back when he founded the Order and taught his followers it for that reason. Or, he may have taught his followers the Patronus Charm originally because he always expected that Tom, if once he thought of it, would eventually seduce the Dementors, and so Tom's opponents would eventually need to know how to repulse Dementors on Tom's side. Indeed, Albus could even have come up with the secondary use as communicators as an excuse to teach the charm without revealing his suspicions about Tom's ultimate appeal to the Dementors.

However, Fudge knows even less than we Dumbledore's true motives for teaching the Patronus. To him, the fact that Dumbledore's werewolf protege Lupin had known the charm well enough to teach Harry would have ultimately added to Fudge's suspicions about Dumbledore's followers. What did you say, again, Dumbledore, were your reasons for teaching a werewolf, one of Sirius Black's best friends, to cast a Dementor-repelling charm? Did you, perhaps, teach Black himself the same spell, back in the day?

Finally, let's pause for a moment to reflect on Harry's "best evah" DADA teacher's pedagogical incompetence in the Patronus lessons. Lupin explains the spell briefly to Harry, tells him the incantation (doesn't demonstrate any particular wand movement--are we to understand that with the Dark Arts--oops, I mean, Defense--an incantation and intention substitute for the precise pronunciation and exact wand motion required by such subjects as Charms and Transfigurations?), lets Harry try it once and achieve a puff of vapor--all good so far. Then Lupin looses the Boggart for Harry's second and all subsequent tries.

Excuse me, if I undertook to learn marksmanship, I wouldn't expect to be given ONE shot at a target before I was told to try under battle conditions!

Now, in the Boggart lesson this perhaps couldn't be helped--I don't know of any way to tell whether or not a student is casting Riddikulus properly without seeing its effect on an actual Boggart. But the Patronus charm has a visible effect, and normal pedagogical practice would be to let the child practice under controlled conditions until s/he had mastered the spell itself fully--THEN practice trying to cast it as protection against a Boggart-Dementor.

And we see that in the DA, many of Harry's students were producing a corporeal patronus by the end of what was apparently their first lesson--while poor Harry, trying to cast the spell while sinking into unconsciousness, couldn't master the spell for months.

Date: 2011-11-25 02:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] borg-princess.livejournal.com
Good points! I especially like your take on Lupin's lessons. Everyone goes on about how Lupin was the best DADA teacher and SO GOOD AT TEACHING unlike that jerkass Snape, but making Harry face a Dementor!boggart when as you point out, a Patronus is visible without needing a Dementor to oppose...yeah, why does he have such a good reputation again? O.o

In DH, we see how super power and speshul Harry is- his hide was toast if the DA hadn't shown up. The students surpass the master...the Golden Trio couldn't manage a viable Patronus at all, iirc.

Date: 2011-11-25 03:19 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Are there human prison guards? Nobody saw that Sirius spent much time as a dog. Barty's Veritaserum confession also implies the only sighted entities in Azkaban are the prisoners. And unless Madam Crouch was buried within an hour of her death no human glimpsed her body either.

(doesn't demonstrate any particular wand movement--are we to understand that with the Dark Arts--oops, I mean, Defense--an incantation and intention substitute for the precise pronunciation and exact wand motion required by such subjects as Charms and Transfigurations?)

Levicorpus and Sectumsempra seem to work with any odd wand movement as well.

Re: Prison guards

Date: 2011-11-26 04:17 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
(The last could be house elves, of course, but not, I think, the first two.)

In my head canon Azkaban has some kind of anti-elf protection, because otherwise I don't see how one can keep an elf-owner imprisoned without hir cooperation, when elves can Apparate even in places protected against Apparition and take others with them.

Date: 2011-11-25 03:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karentheunicorn.livejournal.com
When I first read about the Patronus in book it made me think she ripped off Peter Pan.

To fly you need happy thoughts and pixie dust. The Movie Hook showedrown up Peter struggling to find his happy thought. That is not really unlike what goes on in HP.

So, I feel like JKR took the Happy Thought idea from Peter Pan.

I never got that it was super difficult from the books or movie, No matter what the hell the other people in the series were saying. It came across to me as, if you practice you will get it.

Also I remember someone questioned JKR about Death Eaters using a patronus. Maybe it was the is Snape the only DE or either someone asked could DE create them. Her answer seemed to suggest DE don't need it because it apparenlty somehow works against there 'dark' side of magic. Sorry I can't remember the exactly question/answer - but It just made me think What the hell are you talking about woman?

Death Eaters don't have Happy thoughts? Or are they like, supposedly so eat up with dark magic that they can't make a patronus? Or...really I don't fricking know and it's another frustrating example of F'ed up magical law in Harry Potter series. I have to ask why the hell wouldn't a DE want to have a cool bad ass patronus?

Why can't they do them considering harry doesn't seem to have any trouble doing curses and negative spells. JKR's answer sort of comes across as, no self respecting death eater would ever think a Patronus was a good idea. Don't cramp my reputation with that flowering puffy white animal crap. That spell is just too good for us bad guys. What would the dementors thing of us...blabla...it just seems lame. And even suggesting they can't do them is idiotic considering she has harry just blataintly doing supposed evil spells - HELL, almost ever other good character is doing evil spells. So why would a DE be stopped from having there own nifty patronus?

Ok JKR, I'll buy it IF I had a reasonable counter dark spell - I mean if there was something on the dark side that was just as relevant then okay. The CounterPatronus...this is our bad ass counter spell to patronus magic...but all the bad guys get thats even close is these dumbass 'dementors' .

I guess thats why she had to throw in this spell is supposed to be so difficult that goodies have trouble doing it. The thing that makes it all look stupid is we don't really see them having a whole lot of trouble.

Oh wait, is Tonks having that LOVE affected Patronus crap supposed to be an example of someone having trouble. Yea, unrequited love apparently screws up your patronus...right.

WTF, Rowling?

Snape was having some seriously screwed up LOVE issues from day one and his patronus is seemily the most powerful patronus out there. Snape's patronus was supposedly so damn powerful that HARRY felt a connection to it. So, WTF again.

And then if we add into that the animagus crap; McGonagall turns into a cat, her patronus is a cat.

So does this mean it's a predictor of what your animagus might be? But we've got a suggestion that people's patronus changes - As in Snape, and Apparently Lily - or I'm really not 100% sure on Lily. Someone asked JKR about the whole deal with James/Lily/Patronus (again don't remember question/answer right now) but the answer sort of implied that your patronus will change to reflect your one true love - so was she suggesting Lily's changed to a doe.

If Lily's changed to a doe to be James perfect mate - then whats the deal with Snape's - shouldn't his patronus have been whatever Lily's was before it became a doe. OR maybe Lily's just never changed and it's another case of rowlings F'ed up interview answers - and Lily/James were always setup from birth with Deer on the brain...so when they first met it was ON and nothing was going to stop that mating train to making a perfect little offspring - now matter how much of a jackass James was.

(And at this point I know I'm rambling the hell out of this message)

Date: 2011-11-25 07:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] granatapfelrot.livejournal.com
I very much doubt, that Lily ever cast that charm before dating James. If it's not in the Hogwarts curriculum, which I doubt, then MWPP and Lily would have learnt it after joining the Order. And if she ever had another Patronus, nobody would know it's form.
Just don't ask me, how in that case Severus knew, that his doe was a Lily-thing.
(Hello, after quite some time lurking, this is my first comment on this great side)

Lily Sue

Date: 2011-11-25 08:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] urbanman1984.livejournal.com
Lily was a Mary Sue, so I expect she could cast it wordlessly aged 13.

In JKR's view she was defined by being James' woman. A doe, since he was a stag.

Re: Lily Sue Doe

Date: 2011-11-25 09:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karentheunicorn.livejournal.com
Yes, Another reason it's Mary Sue, not just because it's the perfect lining up of Male Female animals between husband and wife but we have NO damn proof given in canon that the Doe is Lily's or as Harry states Just like his mothers.

JKR has Harry state it's like Lily's and insist it's like Lily's but there is nowhere in canon that Rowling shows us Lily either casting a patronus or having a doe animagus. It's an assumption that is shoved on us and we're just supposed to accept that Lily had a doe patronus without actual proof other than the love Severus supposedly felt for Lily and that he is able to create one.

JKR never shows us in canon Lily having a doe anything; hell I would have settled for her carrying a toy doe to the playground. JKR really NEEDED to add at least one more section to the Princes Tale, perhaps showing young school age Lily and Severus practicing the patronus charm together - but no, we're just supposed to assume it because Harry insists it is Lily.

Re: Lily Sue

Date: 2011-11-25 09:45 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] granatapfelrot.livejournal.com
That she was.
Which makes it even more hilarious, that we never see Lily Sue use her special girly (swishy AND less powerful than James') wand, ever.
As to not get disgraced, none of the Potter Sue's had a wand handy, when Voldemort came and kicked their door in.
Convenient, that. Instant Martyrdom.
And it makes JRK's 'Lily loved Severus as a friend and might have come to love him romantically' quote even more absurd. As per the author Lily only stopped loving him, because 'he was drawn to loathsome people and acts', if I remember correctly.
And that from the girl that married James Potter. Right.

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Re: Lily Sue

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Date: 2011-11-25 09:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karentheunicorn.livejournal.com
Hi, welcome to posting.

Yea, I don't know either how Severus would have a doe; well more like I don't know how Harry in Deathly Hallows felt this kinda connection to it. Well, I don't have the book in front of me but the way it read it makes me think...why does Harry feel connected to Snape's patronus? Just because it's a doe.

I've even played around and posted my thoughts on the whole Magic as a sort of 'god'. Sorry my thoughts don't always flow orderly but if I can stick to my idea without going off track - sort of like the Patronus isn't just proof to everyone else that Snape is good or it isn't even that HE is exactly good (though I digress on the idea that he's total evil) - it's more like when He and Dumbledore are talking and Dumbledore is giving him a hard time suggesting he (Severus) has learned to care for Harry. Snape doesn't argue - he creates the doe patronus as his proof.

It's a bit like for Snape, it doesn't matter what he says - nobody believes him...and really it tends to not matter what he does...again very few people believe or trust him. So, Severus has this option, they will believe magic. The patronus is like 'proof' without words.

SO I've sort of wondered, is it even proof to him? Maybe he doesn't even trust himself where emotions are concerned. He joins a group who want to both kill or don't like muggleborn. Severus has known what Lily was from the start and HE himself is half muggle. So does Severus being able to create that Doe give him a reality jolt - making even him realize his innerself.

In another way (As I mentioned above about the God Magic) I've sort of considered the idea that 'Magic' was playing him - not unlike Dumbledore, magic was using Severus as a tool. So Magic gave Severus a doe patronus, that connected to Dead Lily that makes Harry feel a connection and trust to it. We know Harry would never trust anything Snapish - so why does he feel connection/trust to this suddenly appearing unknown doe patronus.

As far as Hogwarts curriculum goes - I have no clue if it would be taught at Hogwarts. Since The OOTP we have Umbrige who does not seem to be teaching what we might normally expect and she's changing things at the school - it is actually hard to say IF given a better teacher, IF students might have been taught about the patronus. Remus seemily decides to teach Harry for a special reason, because the dementors are more attracted to Harry. So, it's pointed out that he's young for being able to produce a full patronus - but I don't think any of that suggest that it is never taught at Hogwarts. 6th and 7th year classes are suggested to be more select students. I would imagine that in 7th year at least the subject would be touched on.

Date: 2011-11-25 11:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] granatapfelrot.livejournal.com
Well, Harry had all those unexplainable 'feelings' to go there or do that in the whole last book. Besides reading Voldemort thoughts when it was most useful for him. God/The Powers That Be/Magic make a bad habit out of aligning things to Harry's convenience quite often, so why not saddle poor Severus with a doe-patronus?
But I like your idea, that the doe reflects Severus' inner self for more reasons than just the Lily-Love.
Maybe the form of that Patronus even reflects Lily especially for HIM. That would really break my heart...
And it would be even less of an explanation, why Harry and ALBUS see that doe and think it's Lily somehow.
Maybe the WW is just that sexist. It seems to be the knee-jerk reaction that the wife/girlfriend HAS to have a form that means something special to her man?
Some fans even think, Hermione's otter is connected to OTTERY St.Catchpole and there is Tonks...
It's always the females. And Severus, of course.

I don't think, Severus knew the Death Eaters would go that far, at first. Like you said, there was Lily and he was a half-blood himself.
It almost comes off to me, as if he might not have cared all that much about the political side of the whole thing. Just about being cool and getting his own back.
Not the smartest thing anybody ever did, but it doesn't make Severus any more evil than anyone else in those books, IMHO.

Maybe they did indeed teach the Patronus-charm at Hogwarts. The degree of difficulty goes up and down as the plot requires, so it's hard to tell.
I just thought, most wizards would never need that charm.
It's mostly something for Aurors, Prison-guards(If there are human ones. Maybe its only dementors and house-elfs), and Order-members. The last isn't even any official career.
But yes, Umbridge was surprisingly handy with that charm, for such an incompetent bureaucrat.

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Date: 2011-11-26 03:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danajsparks.livejournal.com
My thought is that your patronus form is the animagus form of the person to whom you're most loyal--your "patron." It could be that you're most loyal to yourself, in which case your patronus form is the same as your animagus form.

Thus, my personal theory is that Lily was or would have been a doe animagus. Severus's patronus took the form of a doe because he was loyal to Lily above all others.

Harry didn't know that his father was a stag animagus, but his patronus still took the same form as his father's animagus form. So you don't need to actually know the animagus form of another person in order for your patronus to take on the same form.

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Re: Patronus form

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Date: 2011-11-28 05:40 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sharaz-jek.livejournal.com
Ok JKR, I'll buy it IF I had a reasonable counter dark spell - I mean if there was something on the dark side that was just as relevant then okay. The CounterPatronus...this is our bad ass counter spell to patronus magic...but all the bad guys get thats even close is these dumbass 'dementors' .

Harry disagrees with Snape's opinions on how best to counter Dementors. Harry's preferred (and only) method is a Patronus, so there must be some other method (left typically undescribed, because once Harry knows how to do something, other methods of achieving the same thing are clearly inferior).

Date: 2011-11-25 06:05 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
When Remus casts the Patronus on the train the kids who were conscious to see it didn't report a form. OTOH neither did the kids who saw Albus repel the dementors at the Quidditch game. So it's up in the air whether Remus himself has a corporeal Patronus. He did admit he was not much of an expert on fighting dementors.

Of course the Doylist reason is Rowling's need to be coy about her surprises - Remus being a werewolf and the form of Harry's Patronus (and what is says about James). So no corporeal Patronus can be described before Harry's.

Hmm. When Remus asked Hermione how she figured him out he proposed as hints the schedule of his 'illnesses' and his Boggart, not his Patronus. Maybe he really doesn't have a corporeal one. Maybe the whole bit about the difficulty of the spell is Remus being defensive.

Re: No corporeal Patronus?

Date: 2011-11-26 01:15 am (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Proof that Severus was healthier than Remus.

Re: No corporeal Patronus?

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Re: No corporeal Patronus?

Date: 2011-11-27 03:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] granatapfelrot.livejournal.com
Severus, of course, would face similar issues using memories of Lily to power his Patronus....

And I would really like to know, what Severus' happy memory is. Maybe then I could like Lily a bit better.
As it is, I'm a bit awed, that he actually has memories that good of her. And I'm not sure, if that's devotion or delusion.

Re: No corporeal Patronus?

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Date: 2011-11-25 06:07 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
As for the Order using Patronuses to communicate - at the very least Hagrid and Arabella can't cast the spell. Maybe others too. I wonder how they felt about it or if anyone bothered with some alternative for them.

Re: Alternative means to communicate

Date: 2011-11-26 05:44 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oneandthetruth.livejournal.com
Nonsense! It's still better than phones, email, and texting. What universe are you living in? ;-)

Re: Alternative means to communicate

Date: 2011-11-26 04:58 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
No, Arabella doesn't have any quick alternative. In OOTP chapter 2:
How am I going to tell Dumbledore what's happened, I can't Apparate -

Great job of being inclusive, Albus.

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