[personal profile] oryx_leucoryx posting in [community profile] deathtocapslock
So here is an idea for an AU scenario. Anyone is free to develop it into a fic, but we can just discuss the what-if:

Sometime between November 2nd 1981 and July 1991 Albus Dumbledore died suddenly. Maybe in some magical mishap, maybe a sudden heart attack, whatever. The important bit is he didn't expect this to happen and had no time to do any ad-hoc cover-ups nor did he have a chance to influence the choice of his replacement or to incorporate his death into some plot. The permanent replacement is chosen by the Board of Governors. If this happens early enough Lucius isn't yet on the board, if later he is on, but probably still trying to earn a reputation as an outstanding member of society who would have never joined forces with Voldemort willingly so I don't think he'd support anyone blatantly against the inclusion of Muggleborns. Anyway, the replacement turns out to be someone not as outwardly impressive as Dumbles - not so showy, with perhaps average or slightly above average magical performance, but a capable administrator with good organizational and interpersonal skills, but most importantly someone who cares about the students' well-being and education. It can be someone from Slughorn's network or even someone who thought well of Albus as long as s/he didn't have a chance to look too closely at how Hogwarts was run, but definitely not an Order member or any other close associate of Dumbles. Maybe an older, more experienced and less idealistic version of Percy.

The members of the Hogwarts staff are as we know them in PS (Care of Magical Creatures is taught by Kettleburn, Hagrid is still a groundskeeper), except for DADA. Depending on timing, Quirrell might be the Muggle Studies teacher. I think the DADA curse should still be active, so the teachers are still being replaced annually (we don't want the new school Head to have it too easy).

So I think this new person shows up and tries to run Hogwarts like a normal school. Some teachers object because that's not the way it was always done, some are relieved to have a professional in charge for a change. The handling of disciplinary matters changes. The inter-House politics change.

And then in the summer of 1991 Quirrell comes back from a sabbatical with a personally transplant. And one Harry Potter oddly doesn't reply to his acceptance letter to Hogwarts. (I doubt the new Head had a reason to look into Harry's situation of hir own initiative earlier, but maybe someone can make a convincing argument for that?) So what now?

Date: 2012-01-22 11:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madderbrad.livejournal.com
Reminds me of a fan fiction story I read once, post DH, where Harry's brought up short a couple of times by a terse headmistress McGonagall who tells him in no uncertain terms that she does NOT intend the school to become a base for extra-curricular activities as it was under Dumbledore. :-) Harry (and I) are somewhat taken aback by this. BUT THAT'S NOT HARRY POTTER. :-)

It's sort of on topic, so I'll ask ... what is the canon reason for Dumbledore stashing the Stone at Hogwarts under protections that three first-years could circumvent? I've spent the last few years finding so many errors in the books I've forgotten what the party line is supposed to be, what Rowling wanted her readers to believe. That one line in DH that she had Dumbledore trot out about leading Harry on to 'try his strength' might explain the silliness post GoF - which is when Dumbledore realised that Harry was a Horcrux and would then have to die, yes? - but is there a canon reason for the contrived scenarios of the first few years?

In the latest chapter of Fairy Tales by Perceval23 (http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6883400/1/Fairy_Tales) Hermione ruminates:

    Upon reflection, the defences Dumbledore came up with for it weren't that good, considering three First Years were able to get past them. Still, Harry saved the day, and Voldemort's plan was thwarted. Dumbledore had the Philosopher's Stone destroyed, after. Hermione was, thinking back on it, wondering why, if Dumbledore was going to have it destroyed, anyway, why he didn't just do it in the first place and keep the students out of danger.

I know the real-world reason is that PS is most definitely a "kids book". A meta reason is that Rowling either (a) didn't care about such logic (as we would see proven by the more 'mature' books later on) or (b) hadn't thought things out yet (like the classic Dumbledore-taking-all-night-to-get-to-London thing, PS being written before portkeys and floos were invented.

But is there an official/canon reason for the whole Stone-being-stashed-at-Hogwarts thing? Just thought I'd ask since it's somewhat on topic. Your non-Dumbledore headmaster is likely not to want the Stone kept at Hogwarts if it is a 'normal school'.
Edited Date: 2012-01-22 11:05 pm (UTC)

Date: 2012-01-23 01:23 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madderbrad.livejournal.com
Goodness, I'd totally forgotten that Griphook quote. Just found it now, given your guidance. Still, while it explains why Quirrell might have found it easy goings to break into the empty vault, it doesn't necessarily mean that the fully-fledged bank protections would have kept him out, that Dumbledore was wrong. The statement doesn't, in fact, change anything; Rowling's Dumbledore withdrew the Stone because he *thought* Quirrellmort was capable of breaching the bank's protections, and that assumption remains untested. Griphook's statement only stops people like Harry from using the successful break-in as *proof* that Dumbledore was *right*. The question is still open, as it was back when Dumbledore made that decision.

Dumbledore knowing all along about the Harrycrux would make the most sense of the whole series, connected to that one single asinine sentence in DH that all along the headmaster was indulging in Harry's little escapades because it was "essential to teach him, to raise him, to let him try his strength". Which is nonsensical, but at least an attempt by Rowling at the very last minute to persuade readers that there was a reason for all of the contrivances of their past 10 years of reading.

So, is that really the pro-Jo party line? A sincere HP fan is expected to believe that Dumbledore set up the whole plot of book #1 deliberately, just for Harry to 'try his strength'? Gah. The weight of the entire series on that one miserable excuse of a line at the very end. Bleh.

I'm honestly getting quite confused these days as to what a 'pure' HP fan is supposed to see in the books, what Rowling wants them to see. There's so many errors, so much bad writing, I've lost track of what the party line is supposed to be. It's a weird feeling. I know I've floundered here on deathtocapslock on this point in the past.

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Date: 2012-01-23 10:50 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madderbrad.livejournal.com
... of course Albus knew.

Well, do you know that for sure?

IMO the purpose of the obstacle course was mostly to slow Quirrell down so that Albus would have time to capture him.

And then he takes off for London leaving no-one the wiser.

Well, Snape knew ... but Snape never shows up at the end of the book to save the day in Dumbledore's absence, does he?

So ... the position of the canon faithful ends up as one of benign, benevolent but incompetent headmaster? I've been criticising the stupidity of Dumbledore so long it's hard to remember that we're not supposed to see his incompetence.

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Date: 2012-01-22 11:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] snapes-witch.livejournal.com
Very interesting premise. Of course, Harry Potter would only get one letter and he wouldn't even have been allowed to read it so he'd have not knowledge of Hogwarts at all. How does Severus Snape fit into this Hogwarts?

As for the Philosopher's Stone being at Hogwarts, perhaps Dumbledore somehow found out Quirrell was going to try to steal it? Although in that case it seems the best thing to do would have been to destroy it, just as Madderbrad suggested.

Date: 2012-01-23 02:10 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] danajsparks.livejournal.com
----I think the New Head would be alerted to Harry's situation when s/he received Mrs Figg's report.

That's assuming that Mrs. Figg was sending reports, which I'm not sure was the case.

I think, though, that Minerva might do something about checking on Harry.

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Date: 2012-01-23 04:47 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] the-bitter-word.livejournal.com
I wonder if the Magical World doesn't have a "no child left behind" policy whereby any magical child would be expected to attend Hogwarts unless the child's parents or guardians specifically declined the invitation. Moreover, a supremely special child such as Harry Potter, who was thought to have defeated Voldemort at some 16 months of age, would probably rise to notice as a magical person who should attend Hogwarts, requiring special intervention the school's behalf.

The special treatment of Potter and Gryffindor might have been less under an impartial Headmaster. As is the way with these stories, Harry would have had his destiny to fulfill, but perhaps with less senseless, collateral damage, with less dysfunctional mumbo jumbo in communication. The Headmaster might have shown less favoritism, might have had less tolerance for Harry's out-of-bounds behavior.

I imagine a conflicted and guilt-ridden, but nonetheless determined, Snape would have had to be his mentor. Snape had the most accessible knowledge of the Prophecy, what happened to Harry's parents, and his role in the whole affair.

It could have been a complex, mature story, without the pat, "because I say so" solutions the author offered.

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Date: 2012-01-23 05:01 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] mary-j-59.livejournal.com
Madderbrad, I don't know if you've read Red Hen on PS/SS? Her theory was that the maze was a deliberate trap for Quirrelmort, because Dumbledore and his trusted staff members (Snape included) knew Quirrel was a hostage to Voldemort, and the whole setup was meant to immobilize Voldemort and make it possible to rescue Quirrell. Under this theory, Harry and the other kids were never supposed to go anywhere near the maze. It suited Dumbledore that Harry did, however, because Dumbledore decided that Harry was not, after all, a budding dark wizard. But Harry's interference caused Quirrell's death and allowed Voldemort to escape the trap, albeit damaged.

Jodel is so smart.

The Bitter Word, I pretty much love everything you have said.

Date: 2012-01-23 11:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madderbrad.livejournal.com
Madderbrad, I don't know if you've read Red Hen on PS/SS?

No, I don't think I have. I've spent most of my last few years in the fandom pulling the series - certainly the last two books - to pieces. This intriguing next step of putting it all back together again and forming new theories to make sense of Rowling's flawed canon is relatively new to me. But an intellectual exercise that I'm still marvelling at. :-)

... the whole setup was meant to immobilize Voldemort and make it possible to rescue Quirrell.

But why didn't Dumbledore ... with Snape, McGonagall and half of the Ministry's Aurors ... just walk up to Quirrell at breakfast one day and 'rescue' him there and then? Or knock on the door of his quarters the second day of the school year? Subject him to a magical test, ask him to take off his turban? Why the whole elaborate plan for a trap?

But I'm asking this of the same author who based the entirety of her second-largest (third?) book 4 on a similarly ridiculous plan, aren't I?

It's so hard to go back 10 years (for me) and look again at PS and remember what I though of it back then. But surely most readers must have reasoned that Dumbledore *didn't* know about Quirrell ... because otherwise he'd been deliberately placing all the children in danger, etc (one of the accusations against him in the 'reconstructed' theories voiced here). Yes, surely that was the case.

But then Rowling writes the line in DH showing us that Dumbledore (and Snape) KNEW about Quirrell.

So does this confusion (for me, anyway) all lead back to DH? That makes sense; Rowling clearly had given up on trying to write a proper end game, she just couldn't do it, the last book is a literary disaster. Chalk up the "Keep an eye on Quirrell" thing of DH as a flat-out aberration (like so much of that book) and the rest of the series snaps back to what I do think the official 'party line' was - Dumbledore *didn't* know about the danger that Harry was walking into. Even though he would turn omniscient in the last chapters.

The "it was essential that he ... try his strength" nonsense that suggests that Dumbledore knew about everything would be a second DH error similar to the "keep an eye on Quirrell".

I really do think that Rowling just attempted those twists in DH without thinking at all about what it meant for the entire series.

Okay. "All HP errors lead back to DH". I can live with that. :-)

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Date: 2012-01-25 11:04 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] borg-princess.livejournal.com
Pretty sure Harry wouldn't get the Cloak- either because the new Head wouldn't make the connection to him (it's not like the Potter crest or whatever would be stitched into it, right?) and even if they did trace it to his family, a responsible adult wouldn't let a kid have something that powerful.

Okay, sure the kids all have wands, but at least they're on a relatively even playing field- I think an Invisibility Cloak would be going too far. The only reason Dumbles gave it to Harry was so he could wander around having adventures so he could be used as a puppet. (didn't he find the Mirror of Erised shortly after he began exploring while under the Cloak? I think it's been mentioned before, probably on the Red Hen site, lol, that Dumbles may have wanted him to come across it so that he could assess Harry's personality- see what he desired most and determine whether the kid's a threat or possible hero or what)

Date: 2012-01-25 11:30 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] borg-princess.livejournal.com
I adore the idea of this AU, btw. I really want someone to write it. *eyes you hopefully*

It's just that so many fans take it for granted that HP!verse would be this awesome place to live in, that Hogwarts would be the most AMAZING SCHOOL EVERRR, and when I ask about things like say, internet, pens, heaters, culture shock, holding onto your traditions and loved ones, so on and so forth, people are all like BUT IT'S MAGIC, IT WINS AUTOMATICALLY. O.o

Unless there was someone new in charge to overhaul the school system, I think it'd be the most miserable place for us hypothetical Muggle-borns. That's not even taking into account the rotten-to-the-core wizarding society. I'm glad this is only fiction; I hate to think of those smug, superior wizards exploiting Muggles. :/

Date: 2012-01-26 04:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oneandthetruth.livejournal.com
people are all like BUT IT'S MAGIC, IT WINS AUTOMATICALLY. O.o

Which just shows how immature and clueless they are. Magic doesn't make up for the loss of civil rights, technology, culture, science, family, friends, sanity, and logic. Magical thinking is characteristic of three- to four-year-olds. I think we know what emotional level these people are on.
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Date: 2012-01-26 06:24 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madderbrad.livejournal.com
Oh, here you are. I received e-mail notifications to your replies but then couldn't find them. Glad I found you down here! Weird.

We just as easily project our goodness upon the narcissist in our lives and then we fall in love with the good qualities in ourselves projected upon the other.

I've taken this topic to another forum and a respondent there told me exactly the same thing; that the (incredible) 'resistance' of some people to the errors of HP - they don't notice them, and when they're told of their existence they run away, change the subject or launch personal attacks - is due to their honestly 'loving' the books. Or - my addendum to her theory - in some cases Joanne Rowling herself.

Get the people who 'love' the books together so that their numbers exceeds that of the citizenry in the fable 'The Emperor's New Clothes" and there you have it; a group of loyal 'cultists' - as oneandthetruth has stated here - who will brook no dissent.

The language is simple, so even those with limitid vocabulary have access, it does not require much thinking.

That's certainly true of the first few books, I guess, and they're at the root of the problem; the HP juggernaut was approaching critical mass by the time GoF was published. I still don't know why THOSE THREE BOOKS were such a breakout from all the other books at the time. Because they were all ready and part of a promised series, as Mary J has said? Actually, in the current age, where everyone wants instant gratification now now NOW, maybe that factor has more weight than I originally thought when I read Mary's comment. Hmmm.

And certainly, as you say, Rowling was blatant in setting up the 'good guys' versus the 'bad guys', it was all very easy. Dumbledore in one corner, Dark Lord in the other. We could pick our side and then sit back and cheer every time Harry was awarded an (artificial) triumph. But surely other childrens books of the time were equally simplistic? What made Rowling's three so super duper different?

(I'm still leaning towards my own theory - expressed elsewhere here - that Americans hadn't had any real exposure to the 'British Boarding School' genre - or the British books/films 'The Worst Witch', etc - and Rowling just happened to be lucky enough to be the first to get that tried-and-true trope over to the other side of the pond.)

But it would be better if he remembered his mother's death! Yes! Like the bit in 'Bambi'! I remember how everybody cried at that!

Heh. I certainly agree with you and Mary J on the 'throwing in bits and pieces from all sources' penchant of Rowling's, I've always thought that was the case (and refused to genuflect at Rowling's WORLD BUILDING IMAGINATION). And she did it with little understanding of what she was doing or how to connect all the pieces together.

But I like your re-enactment of writer Rowling in action! Hee. :-)

If I ever see the word 'Bambi' in a Harry Potter story I'm liable to break out laughing now, you realise.
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Date: 2012-01-25 10:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] parenthesised.livejournal.com
I want to read ALL of these stories...

Date: 2012-01-26 03:36 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oneandthetruth.livejournal.com
I've thought of writing a story called A New Broom Sweeps Clean, about Hogwarts undergoing a hostile takeover by an international chain of magic schools that's run by Hogwarts alumni/ae who are pissed off at the way Dumbledore's screwed the school up. Dumbledore is fired, and the school is forcibly modernized by bringing in computers, central heating, a modern sewage treatment system, pens and notebook paper, crash helmets for quidditch, the Dewey Decimal system in the library, making robes optional, and including school counselors. Also added in are normal school subjects such as foreign languages, literature, science, and sports other than quidditch, and a school newspaper, The Hogwarts Howler, is started. Students are forced to rotate among the houses so they spend one quarter of each school year in every house. There is one set of rules for everybody, and the rules are enforced by an independent security force that monitors student behavior with cameras in the halls and classrooms. Heavy-duty magic-shielding charms allow all the modern technological improvements to work. The house elves are freed and given salaries, although they have the right to refuse pay if they want.

The word "muggle" is outlawed, and students are taught how to understand and appreciate the nonmagical world and its denizens. Students from a nonmagical background have to take a course on magical society (per your suggestion). Students are required to engage in public service such as volunteering at hospitals, food banks, orphanages, old folks homes, etc. NO animals are harmed in teaching any class.

The school is run by a new, young headmistress who doesn't favor any house because she is not a Hogwarts alumna. Qualified teachers are hired to teach every subject. Hagrid and Minerva quit (not because I don't like them, but because I can't see them sticking around if their beloved Dumbledore wasn't there any more), and all the Weasleys leave school except for Percy for the same reason. Snape becomes much more pleasant because he gets treated with dignity and respect for the first time in his life, and his salary is tripled (he's underpaid to begin with, and he gets one salary each for teaching and being a house head). Hermione doesn't become a junior psychopath because she emulates the new headmistress as a role model. With no Ron or Ginny around, I might even be able to work in some HP/HG action. ;-)

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Date: 2012-01-28 07:10 pm (UTC)
sunnyskywalker: Young Beru Lars from Attack of the Clones; text "Sunnyskywalker" (Default)
From: [personal profile] sunnyskywalker
Here's a question: is there anyone we've seen in canon who sounds like a candidate for New Head, or would it probably be someone we only saw in passing or never met? Probably an outsider - someone who graduated ages ago but hasn't been mixed up with the Hogwarts admin crowd since, or a foreigner - would be best, but given how inbred wizarding politics are it seems possible that the top candidates would be someone we've seen or heard about.

It depends when Dumbledore dies, I guess - if he kicked off shortly after Halloween 1981, Barty Crouch Sr. might have been in a position to be appointed (he probably would have declined and held out for Minister - but then, I suppose it depends on just how much power and influence the headmaster really has... and maybe he would have liked the opportunity to have control of the kids of all his enemies...). Fudge was too young and inexperienced at the time (it seems he was considered young and inexperienced as new Minister in 1991). Umbridge... maybe? We don't know much about her background, and she might also have been too young at the time. There are some names we can't really guess one way or the other (who knows what Hestia Jones and Emmeline Vance were up to then). There are some old-timers like Griselda Marchbanks, who is an OWL examiner these days so maybe she would have been in the running, except maybe she felt she was too old for such a demanding job. There's McGonagall, of course, who even then would have had long experience as a teacher and department head, whether or not she was next in line in 1981, and would have been increasingly qualified the later Dumbledore died - but then if there's enough of an anti-Dumbledore backlash, she might not get it for political reasons. Lucius Malfoy was too young and even with his Imperius defense probably too tainted at the time, and this might also have made his father an unsuitable candidate by association. Likewise other DE families, or suspected DE families, are out of the running. There aren't that many Blacks as it is, and too many are DE-associates. Maybe a Longbottom, or someone else from one of the old families we've only heard by name?

There's also the other House heads, though Flitwick and Sprout don't seem to have much of an administrative bent. (Pomfrey seems like she ought to be a power in the school, being not just a healer but her own department head and assistants too, which sounds like a big job... but we never see that.) Which leaves Slughorn, who - as far as we know - doesn't have any DE-association taint, is good at politics, seems to be a relatively effective teacher, and is well-regarded by many former students. He might not have wanted the position (preferring to be a bit more behind the scenes), but he's probably the best qualified of any character I can think of. Again, unless he'd rather stay where he is and have some other experienced but neutral professor take it (Sinistra or Vector?).

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