Why didn't Voldemort get the prophecy for himself?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

In Chapter 35 of OotP, Lucius tells Harry

The only people who are permitted to retrieve a prophecy from the Department of Mysteries, Potter, are those about whom it was made, as the Dark Lord discovered when he attempted to use others to steal it for him.

Harry asks why Voldemort didn't try to get the prophecy himself, and Bellatrix responds:

Get it himself? The Dark Lord, walk into the Ministry of Magic, when they are so sweetly ignoring his return? The Dark Lord, reveal himself to the Aurors, when at the moment they are wasting their time on my dear cousin?”

Harry answers:

So, he’s got you doing his dirty work for him, has he? Like he tried to get Sturgis to steal it - and Bode?

(Back in chapter 26 the kids had decided after one of Harry's Voldie!Visions that Lucius had put the Imperius Curse on both Sturgis Podmore and Broderick Bode in order to use them to steal a "weapon" from the DOM.)

And Lucius affirms that Harry is correct:

Very good, Potter, very good… But the Dark Lord knows you are not unintell—

This exchange invites us readers to conclude that Voldemort originally didn't know about the restrictions on the prophecy orbs. Furthermore, once he learned about them from Rookwood, he still never risked entering the Ministry to get the prophecy for himself.

I am wondering, though, whether we can be certain that everything that Lucius and Bellatrix tell Harry here is true. They have every reason to lie to Harry in order to get what they want. Moreover, even if Lucius and Bellatrix believe that what they are saying is true, that doesn't mean it is; it may simply be what they've been told by Voledmort.



First, did Voldemort really not know anything about the restrictions on who could access the prophecy?

Our evidence for this is that Sturgis Podmore and Broderick Bode were supposedly both Imperisued in order to get them to steal the orb. However, this is an idea that is expressed by Harry, and it's possible that Lucius simply chooses not to contradict him.

It could be that Lucius actually had nothing to do with Podmore getting caught lurking outside the DOM. Or, if Lucius did use the Imperius Curse on Podmore, his goal may not have been for Podmore to retrieve the prophecy, but simply for Podmore to get caught trying to break into the DOM. That would remove one of the Order's guards and alert the Ministry that Dumbledore's people were skulking about the DOM. Therefore, Podmore's arrest is not necessarily evidence of Voldemort's ignorance.

Bode's injury is also not evidence that Voldemort was completely ignorant of who could and could not pick up the orb. Since Bode was an Unspeakable, Voldemort may have believed that he had special access to the prophecies. And perhaps Bode usually was somebody who could remove the orbs from the shelves; he just couldn't do so under magical coercion.



Second, did Voldemort really never go to the Ministry, himself, to try to get the prophecy?

What's interesting is that there's a fair amount of evidence that Voldemort did go to the Ministry earlier in the year. We know for certain that Nagini was in the Ministry a few days before Christmas, and Harry was "inside the snake's head" when it bit Arthur. It's possible that Harry visited Nagini's mind because they were both horcruxes. However, since Harry never again had a vision from the snake's perspective, it seems much more likely that Voldemort was possessing Nagini at the time. Indeed, Severus tells Harry:

You seem to have visited the snake’s mind because that was where the Dark Lord was at that particular moment. He was possessing the snake at the time and so you dreamed you were inside it, too.--OotP24

Thus, despite what Bellatrix says, Voldemort very likely did go to the Ministry in the form of a possessed Nagini.

It's also interesting that Bode may have been admitted to St. Mungo's around the same time that Mr. Weasley was, maybe even on the same day. We know that he was definitely there on the day that the kids first visited Arthur. And, in chapter 25, we learn from the Daily Prophet that Bode had been injured "some weeks" prior to his death. According to the HP Lexicon, Arthur was bitten on December 18th and Bode's death was reported on January 14th.

Maybe, then, on the same night that Arthur was bitten, an Imperiused Bode was unlocking and opening doors so that the snake could make its way toward the Hall of Prophecies. And that's why nobody could find the snake afterward.

So, if Voldemort was at the Ministry, then why didn't he remove his orb? Perhaps the answer is that he couldn't remove it.

Note that Voldemort's name isn't actually on the prophecy orb, either as "Voldemort" or as "Tom Riddle." The prophecy is labeled:

S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D.
Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter

Was "Dark Lord" an epithet used specifically by Voldemort, or was it a more general title for powerful dark wizards? Was the prophecy even about Voldemort?

Of course, if Voldemort had discovered that he was unable to pick up the orb, he would never have admitted that to his followers.

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

We have the vision of Rookwood telling Tom about the restriction. Tom says Avery told him Bode should be able to remove 'it', Rookwood insists that is not the case and that Bode too had been aware of the situation, and this was why he fought Malfoy's Imperius Curse. Rookwood's words are 'Bode could never have taken it, Master.'

So unless 'it' refers to something else altogether we have Tom believing (following Avery's report) that Bode should have been able to remove the prophecy and Rookwood (himself a former Unspeakable) saying that was an impossibility.

Now I don't agree with Harry that he received the conversation as it was happening. Tom posing in front of the mirror at the end of the vision implies this was a message sent deliberately by Tom - because once Tom learned that only he or Harry could remove the prophecy he wanted Harry to get curious about the mystery object (notice how Tom was careful to send only those parts of the conversation where the prophecy record is only referred to as 'it'?) and come get it for Tom.

[corycides.livejournal.com]

One possible reason that Voldemort might not have been able to get the prophecy is that he isn't - physically - the person it was written about any longer. His consciousness might have persisted after death, but his body was jam on the floor. The prophecy might have seen his rebuilt body as being the same as reincarnation, rather than a continuation of the person it was written about.

It wouldn't really be something that Voldemort could tell his followers either, with them being all about bloodlines.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Once you accept that it was a deliberate sending, though, there's no reason to expect any of it to be true. Voldemort had every reason to want to lure Harry away from Hogwarts, prophecy or no prophecy, although admittedly that vision alone wasn't especially likely to get Harry to run off anywhere.

It's hard to tell what Voldemort thought Harry knew. Lucius *says* that Voldemort thought Harry knew about the prophecy, but as I've pointed out earlier, it doesn't make much sense. If Voldemort thought Dumbledore had told Harry about it, Voldemort would presumably also think that Dumbledore would arrange for Harry to hear it -- even if it meant bringing him to the DoM personally. There would be no point in telling Harry *about* the prophecy without telling him what the prophecy *said* -- unless, like Voldemort, you wanted Harry to run off to the DoM.

And while I can imagine Dumbeldore wanting that, easily enough, I don't think Voldemort would predict that.

So, I don't accept Lucius' word that Voldemort thought Harry knew about the prophecy. He could be wrong, or lying. I don't know why or which, but it still seems like the most plausible situation.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

oh, that's a good point!

[oryx_leucoryx]

But if Tom knows he can't remove the prophecy - how does he know without actually trying? And if he tried, why isn't he yammering incoherently about being a teapot or the like?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

----We have the vision of Rookwood telling Tom about the restriction. Tom says Avery told him Bode should be able to remove 'it', Rookwood insists that is not the case and that Bode too had been aware of the situation, and this was why he fought Malfoy's Imperius Curse. Rookwood's words are 'Bode could never have taken it, Master.'

Well, there a few possibilities of what this could mean, though...

1. Avery was totally ignorant of the restrictions.

2. Avery knew about the restrictions, but he believed that Unspeakables had special access to the prophecies, and he was wrong about that

3. Some Unspeakables did have special access, but Bode wasn't one of them.

4. Bode, himself, usually did have access, but he couldn't remove the orb under duress.


Alternatively, when Voldemort was asking Rookwood why "Bode" couldn't remove the prophecy, he was really trying to get more information about why he, himself, was unable to get it. Again, he would never admit that he couldn't get it himself.

[oryx_leucoryx]

You know Lynn, I'm beginning to really like this take: Voldemort had no interest whatsoever in the prophecy, he was just using it as a way to get Harry out of Hogwarts, with a reason Dumbles would find plausible. This means Tom was lying to everyone, including Lucius and Bellatrix (because they certainly behaved as though the prophecy record was their goal, and Severus was able to use the failure to obtain the prophecy to taunt Bellatrix later that summer), and that while Dumbles may have used the prophecy as a distraction for Tom, the latter saw through the trick and used it against Harry and Dumbles.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Maybe Bode wasn't yammering like a teapot because he tried to pick up the orb. Maybe somebody cursed him after he failed. Or maybe his injuries were the result of him trying to resist the Imperius Curse. Or maybe, in his efforts to resist the curse, Bode intentionally injured himself with some other object in order to stop himself.


Or maybe Unspeakables have some kind of fail-safe that goes into effect when they're compromised.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Huh, it could even be, then, that Tom actually did hear the prophecy on the night Arthur was bitten, and then placed it back on the shelf.

Speaking of which, how do we know that Tom didn't go to the DOM back in 1980 and listen to the full prophecy before he attacked the Potters? The prophecy goes.

and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not… and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives

Maybe Tom believed that he had to turn Harry into a horcrux before he could kill the boy?

[corycides.livejournal.com]

There are a couple of options that you could take there:

a: Voldemort had attempted to access some other identity based spell, possibly to access some spellbooks or charms that he had cached away in case of emergencies before his first death.

b: He tried to access the charm and now some of more over the top decisions are explained.

c: He tried to access the charm previously, was stung by some early warning system (presumably even the wizards wouldn't want to long term impair some poor Harry Gordon Potts if he picked up the wrong orb. So a 'Oy, not yours', should really be there.'

d: danny_sparks idea below, which I actually really like. It really doesn't makes sense not to have some 'useful intel/skills melting' spell in place in the Unspeakables brains.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Any of this would certainly explain why Voldemort didn't bother questioning Trelawney about the prophecy when he had the chance.

I don't think that Voldemort could have believed he'd need to turn Harry into a horcrux, though, or he probably wouldn't've been willing to kill him in DH. Back in 1981, maybe, since he had plenty of other horcruxes then, and no reason to think that anyone knew about them. In DH, though, he knows he's down to Nagini (or would be, after Harry's death), and he knows that people have been destroying them. Too risky to destroy a horcrux deliberately, wouldn't you say?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Yeah that's a very good point, though I've had this idea for a while that he had been planning to transfer the horcrux in Harry to another object-- Gryffindor's sword, specifically, if he could get his hands on it.

That's why he kept shooting AK's at Harry.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

----It's hard to tell what Voldemort thought Harry knew. Lucius *says* that Voldemort thought Harry knew about the prophecy, but as I've pointed out earlier, it doesn't make much sense. If Voldemort thought Dumbledore had told Harry about it, Voldemort would presumably also think that Dumbledore would arrange for Harry to hear it -- even if it meant bringing him to the DoM personally. There would be no point in telling Harry *about* the prophecy without telling him what the prophecy *said* -- unless, like Voldemort, you wanted Harry to run off to the DoM.

It's possible that Lucius was mocking Harry with his "Dumbledore never told you?" meaning that it's obvious that Harry is just Dumbledore's clueless pawn.

Voldemort may have known perfectly well that Dumbledore hadn't told Harry about the prophecy. However, he might have expected that Harry and his friends would be able to figure out what he was after in the DOM based upon the visions that he had sent.... and then Harry would be drawn by natural curiosity to find out what the prophecy said.

And actually, wouldn't Hermione normally have been researching like crazy to find out what could possibly be in the DOM?

I wonder if Hermione knew about the prophecy but wasn't allowed to tell Harry.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

---Any of this would certainly explain why Voldemort didn't bother questioning Trelawney about the prophecy when he had the chance.

Do we know for sure that Trelawney wasn't questioned? She doesn't seem to remember when she's given prophecies, so he may have questioned her but not obtained any new information.

[oryx_leucoryx]

We know he didn't attempt any really heavy Legilimency against her, the kind that might have broken through her trance-induced forgetfulness, because she was up and about during the battle (as opposed to a wreck like Bertha Jorkins apparently became after Legilimency that broke through a memory charm).

[oryx_leucoryx]

How could Tom have done anything with the prophecy that night? Where was his body? If he left his body at home and only went inside Nagini's head he couldn't have removed the prophecy nor replaced it afterwards.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

----If he left his body at home and only went inside Nagini's head he couldn't have removed the prophecy nor replaced it afterwards.

Why not? Nagini was agile enough that she could imitate Bathilda Bagshot. Tom's mind, magic, and soul were all present. If he couldn't pick it up because he was in Nagini's body, then, as Corycides suggested, he probably couldn't pick it up when in his own body either.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Nagini animated bathilda Bagshot's body. She used Bathilda's hands. Nagini doesn't have hands of her own.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

She couldn't just wrap her tail around the prophecy?


Although here's another (admittedly far-fetched) idea. I suggested earlier that perhaps an Imperiused Bode assisted Naginin in getting to the Hall of Prophecies. So, what if, once they arrived, Voldemort possessed Bode in order to pick up the prophecy.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

His body could have been at the DoM, but he could have been concentrating on seeing things from Nagini's perspective at the time of the dream.

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

But destroying/killing a Horcrux destroys the soul fragment, so that shouldn't have worked. Unless, of course, he'd reached a numerical upper limit and needed to open a slot.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Shooting an AK at somebody doesn't destroy their soul (as far as we know anyway), so why would an AK destroy a soul fragment?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

----It's hard to tell what Voldemort thought Harry knew. Lucius *says* that Voldemort thought Harry knew about the prophecy, but as I've pointed out earlier, it doesn't make much sense.

Despite what I said earlier (http://deathtocapslock.livejournal.com/206218.html?thread=7534986#t7534986), I think you're right about this. It doesn't make sense that Tom expected Harry to go after the prophecy out of "natural curiosity."

Even if Harry had managed to figure out on his own that Tom was after a prophecy, that doesn't mean that Harry would have figured out that the prophecy was about himself, nor does it mean that Harry's first impulse would be to rush off to the DOM to find out what the prophecy said. Harry doesn't usually make that much effort unless he thinks somebody or something needs rescuing, as Tom apparently understood when he sent the vision about Sirius.

I've been reading through Harry's visions about the DOM again. For the first several months, Harry dreams about going down a windowless corridor and "standing longingly in front of the plain black door." However, in Chapter 26 (HPL says Jan. 21), the dreams shift; it's now possible for Harry to get past that door.

...he was feet from it, and saw with a leap of excitement that there was a glowing strip of faint blue light down the right-handside… the door was ajar… he stretched out his hand to push it wide and -
Ron gave a loud, rasping, genuine snore and Harry awoke abruptly....

In the subsequent visions that we're shown, Harry gets closer to his destination, but something always interrupts him or wakes him up before he makes it all the way.

Therefore, I'm wondering if, starting in late January, "Sirius" was always at the end of row 97 in these visions. In other words, Tom had been sending Harry the same vision about Sirius for several months; Harry just didn't know it because something always interrupted him before he finished the dream.

In that case, regardless of what Lucius says, Tom wasn't counting on Harry's "natural curiosity" to lead him to the prophecy; he had been trying to lure Harry out of Hogwarts with that vision of Sirius all along.

And actually, the vision about Sirius, in its entirety, makes sense in combination with the vision of the discussion about Bode. In the vision of the discussion, Rookwood says:

Bode could never have taken it, Master… Bode would have known he could not…

In the vision about Sirius, Tom says,

Take it for me… lift it down, now… I cannot touch it… but you can. *snip* ....you will fetch it for me first, Black… you think you have felt pain thus far? Think again…

In the vision, Tom is trying to force Sirius to pick up the orb.

What this means, I think, is that Tom neither expected nor even wanted Harry to know anything about what "it" was. Rather, he was trying to make Harry believe that he had kidnapped Sirius because he wanted something from the DOM that only Sirius could touch.

[oryx_leucoryx]

Still makes no sense. The Horcrux book says that a Horcrux is destroyed when certain forms of irreversible damage are inflicted on the container. An AK is a form of irreversible damage to living beings. So the AK on Harry should have destroyed the Horcrux. If Tom believed he had the means to transfer a soul- bit when its Horcrux is destroyed it would only make sense if he had some other receptacle, already prepared to become the substitute Horcrus. If he was planning to use what he thought was the sword of Gryffindor (but was actually fake) as the replacement Horcrux then he only had access to it after Severus became headmaster. Yet Tom attempted to AK Harry in Godric's Hollow, the cemetary, the DOM, and the 7P air battle before having access to the (fake) sword. (Oh, and in Godric's Hollow again, while the fake sword was in Bella's vault.)

Also, the memory of the first Godric's Hollow attack doesn't show any kind of action that could be seen as preparing to make a Horcrux, he just attacks Harry after killing Lily. He may have had some intended, pre-prepared Horcrux object on him, because Dumbles thought he was going to make a Horcrux after killing Harry, but there is no sign that the attack on Harry was anything other than a direct, run-of-the-mill AK.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Ah, you're right. Well, there goes that idea. :D

[sharaz-jek.livejournal.com]

Basilisk-venom-infused steel doesn't destroy a soul either, but the fragment in Nagini was presumably destroyed. True, Nagini was physically damaged and Harry wasn't, but the soul leaving the body comes across to me as sufficient damage for Horcrux-destroying purposes (it is, after all, supposed to be irreparable barring Chosen One status).

Plus, the only way Voldemort is dead is if Harry is no longer a Horcrux, and since Harry's scar hasn't hurt in nineteen years, either Voldemort is keeping very calm or he's genuinely gone.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I think we can believe Dumbles that Tom got the idea to use 'Sirius' as bait from Kreacher (not directly, because as far as Tom knew Kreacher died in 1979 or so, but Narcissa passed the information on). Sirius commanded Kreacher to go 'out' the night Arthur was attacked (December 18th, according to Lexicon). Kreacher showed up again around the time Severus visited 12GP to tell Harry about the Occlumency lessons (January 11th, ibid). The first time Harry realized the location of the door from his dream was during the first Occlumency lesson. Hmm, didn't he actually see Arthur leading him to the court-room? And wasn't Lucius present there that day? I think the image Tom showed Harry earlier (starting from the summer) was from a memory of someone (either one of the DEs who works or has business at the Ministry or even a memory of Tom's in one of his incarnations) going to that door. Then in January he showed Harry Lucius' memory of Arthur bringing him to the court room. And at some point (could have started before the night in late February when Harry managed to get past the door if previous instances were also interrupted) Tom started showing the dream that was supposed to lead Harry to the prophecy shelf. So where did the imagery in the dream come from? It cold only have come from someone who had been past the door (because the images in the dream matched reality when Harry got to the DOM). So either from Rookwood, or Bode, or maybe Tom himself, if he actually got that far himself in some manner.

Did the image of Sirius come from a memory - whether from Severus or Peter (I find it hard to explain how it could come from Kreacher without Tom finding out he was alive)? Or did someone Polyjuice hirself into Sirius to act the part in order to create the desired scene?

[oryx_leucoryx]

OK, counterargument:

The plan to lure Harry to the Ministry involved Kreacher creating a distraction (by injuring Buckbeak) to keep Sirius from answering the floo if Harry were to check on him. I doubt Tom arranged with Narcissa each time he sent Harry that vision. I also doubt the DEs were ready to intercept Harry each time the dream was sent. No, Sirius' image only appeared in June, after Tom believed he had Albus' most loyal followers removed from Hogwarts.

But the plan to lure Harry to the DOM with Sirius as bait may have hatched as early as Christmas break, and the first step of putting it to motion was during Harry's Occlumency lesson, half a day before Tom was ecstatically happy about the escape of his loyal DEs from Azkaban, among whose numbers was Rookwood. Which means that the plan was formed independently of any information Rookwood could have delivered. (And the dream in which Harry pushed through the door took place before the dream in which Harry saw Rookwood talking to Tom.)

Notice how both Albus and Tom make sure Harry doesn't know what Tom is after in the DOM? Albus has the Order pretending Tom was after some 'weapon' while Tom always refers to 'it'. Collusion?

Also, for a plan in which Kreacher distracts Sirius, Tom must have known he had a mole at 12GP, yet he never suspected Kreacher survived the cave adventure. Which means Narcissa covered for him, perhaps only ever mentioning him as 'the Black family elf'. She was willing to take a heavy risk not only for her son and husband but for a family elf who wasn't even hers. And anyone wonders why Kreacher felt loyalty to her side of the family?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

----The first time Harry realized the location of the door from his dream was during the first Occlumency lesson. Hmm, didn't he actually see Arthur leading him to the court-room? And wasn't Lucius present there that day?

---Then in January he showed Harry Lucius' memory of Arthur bringing him to the court room.

I'm pretty sure that this is Harry's own memory. It's basically what Harry actually experienced as he and Arthur rushed to the courtroom near the end of chapter 7.

Chapter 7:

“Quick, Harry,” said Mr. Weasley as the lift doors rattled open, and they sped up a corridor that was quite different from those above. The walls were bare; there were no windows and no doors apart from a plain black one set at the very end of the corridor. Harry expected them to go through it, but instead Mr. Weasley seized him by the arm and dragged him to the left, where there was an opening leading to a flight of steps.

Chapter 24:

...he was running along a windowlesspassage with Mr. Weasley… they were drawing nearer to the plain black door at the end of the corridor… Harry expected to go through it… but Mr. Weasley led him off to the left, down a flight of stone steps...

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

----I doubt Tom arranged with Narcissa each time he sent Harry that vision. I also doubt the Des were ready to intercept Harry each time the dream was sent. No, Sirius' image only appeared in June, after Tom believed he had Albus' most loyal followers removed from Hogwarts.

Oh nuts, I said that yesterday that Harry's dreams changed in chapter 26 on Jan. 21st. That should have been Feb. 21. So....

Feb. 21--The dreams about the DOM change for the first time--the door is now ajar and Harry is about to push it open when Ron's snore wakes him up

Feb. 24--The vision about Rookwood and Tom happens

March 8--During his Occlumency lesson, Harry goes through the door for the first time and gets as far as the circular room and is trying to decide which door to take when Snape interrupts him.

Early April--Dumbledore gets sacked

The next day--Harry reaches the Hall of Prophecies in his dream. He's making his way through the room when a firecracker wakes him up.

Sometime in May-- He gets as far as row 97 in the vision when we wakes himself up by speaking aloud "Just bit a further."

During May--On most nights, Harry has "stupid dreams about exams."

He also suspected that part of his mind -the part that often spoke in Hermione’s voice — now felt guilty on the occasions it strayed down that corridor ending in the black door, and sought to wake him before he could reach the journeys end.

During the Astronomy O.W.L in June- Hagrid gets sacked and McGonagall gets stunned

The next day--Harry sees the vision about Sirius

Just to play devil's advocate, let's suppose that, starting in February, the only times that Tom sent Harry the visions of the DOM door were the times that we read about. In that case, Tom sent Harry visions on Feb. 21, March 8, one day in early April, a few times in May, and the day of the History O.W.L. in June. If it really was just those times, then it could be that Tom did make arrangements with his people each time he sent Harry a vision.

It's also interesting that Albus was not inside Hogwarts at the time of the vision on March 8th; he was somewhere outside with Firenze. So, I agree that Tom probably cared about Albus being out of the way, but maybe he wasn't that concerned about Hagrid and Minerva.



---- and the first step of putting it to motion was during Harry's Occlumency lesson, half a day before Tom was ecstatically happy about the escape of his loyal DEs from Azkaban, among whose numbers was Rookwood. Which means that the plan was formed independently of any information Rookwood could have delivered. (And the dream in which Harry pushed through the door took place before the dream in which Harry saw Rookwood talking to Tom.)

As I said above, I think the memory during the first Occlumency lesson could very well have been Harry's own. Furthermore, for over a month after this lesson, Harry continued having the same dreams about the corridor that had started during the summer. So I'm not sure if that memory was part of Tom's plan. It could be that Tom "jogged" Harry's memory so that he would figure out that his dreams were about the DOM.



----Also, for a plan in which Kreacher distracts Sirius, Tom must have known he had a mole at 12GP, yet he never suspected Kreacher survived the cave adventure.

I'm not so sure that Kreacher was the mole. You've read Swythyv's Hydraulic Forces, right?

[oryx_leucoryx]

We know Kreacher was involved because he was the one who answered Harry's floo call following Harry's vision, after making sure Sirius would not be available to answer. OK, it is still possible that someone else Imperiurized him to do so. swythyv's proposal that Remus was (one of?) the mole(s) has little support. If he was, he managed to conceal his allegiance not only from the Order but specifically from Severus long after OOTP - to the point that that Severus risked everything in attempt to save Remus in the 7P battle.

I accept that the memory of Harry going down the corridor with Arthur may have been authentically Harry's, leaving the vision from late February as the first clear indication for Tom's plan to lure Harry to the DOM. (A plan Severus and Albus were aware of, at least in general, and the reason for Harry's Occlumency lessons. Only the specific bait may have been something the two were not aware of.) In any case, the fact that the door was ajar before the vision of Rookwood's interview supports the conclusion that the latter vision was an intentional sending and Harry did not see it in real time. Therefore the contents may have been a scene Tom and Rookwood acted out rather than a true event in which Rookwood appraised Tom of new information.

[oryx_leucoryx]

If it really was just those times, then it could be that Tom did make arrangements with his people each time he sent Harry a vision.

So Tom had a dozen fighters walk in and out of the Ministry some 7-10 times or so, *and* arranged for no Order member to be available to answer the floo on all those occasions, in case Harry took the bait that time?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

No, he sent those visions at times when he knew no Order members were around, maybe when Sirius was all alone and passed out drunk.

And he didn't need to send a dozen fighters to the Ministry each time. All he needed to do was send one person to the Ministry, perhaps Peter, to watch for Harry. The others just needed to be prepared and ready to go once they knew that Harry had taken the bait.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

---I accept that the memory of Harry going down the corridor with Arthur may have been authentically Harry's, leaving the vision from late February as the first clear indication for Tom's plan to lure Harry to the DOM.

Agreed. And whether or not he waited until June to include Sirius in the vision isn't really that important, I don't think.

----In any case, the fact that the door was ajar before the vision of Rookwood's interview supports the conclusion that the latter vision was an intentional sending and Harry did not see it in real time. Therefore the contents may have been a scene Tom and Rookwood acted out rather than a true event in which Rookwood appraised Tom of new information.

Yes, which means that we have no reliable information about 1. what caused Bode's injury, 2. what the actual restrictions are for who can and cannot retrieve a prophecy, and 3. whether or not Tom originally knew about these restrictions.

So, that leaves us with a couple of questions (at least)....

First, were Harry's dreams before Feb. 21 also deliberately sent by Tom? I agree with you that they probably were; which likely means that, regardless of his true feelings on the matter, Tom wanted Harry and the Order to believe that he was, indeed, obsessed with "it" in the DOM.

Second, Harry would have gone anywhere to save Sirius, so why did Tom lure Harry to the prophecy, in particular, rather than somewhere else? I feel that Bella's claim is a load of BS; if Tom really wanted the prophecy, then he would have come to get it himself. Therefore, it seems that Tom specifically wanted Harry to pick up that orb. I can think of two reasons why this might be: 1. Tom could not pick up the orb himself. 2. The question mark next to Harry's name raised doubts (either for him or others) about whether the prophecy was about Harry. Or it could be for both of these reasons.

Maybe, for instance, Tom wanted everyone (especially his followers) to believe that it had been prophesied that the Dark Lord would kill Harry Potter. The proof was in that orb--nobody could pick up a prophecy orb unless the prophecy was about them, not even the Unspeakables (doesn't matter whether it was true or not). Thus, he wanted Harry to pick up the orb in order to show that the prophecy was truly about the two of them before he killed the boy.


Finally, if Tom wasn't spending that whole year obsessing about what the prophecy said, then what was he doing instead?

[oryx_leucoryx]

Wouldn't that be a huge risk? If his mind was in Nagini his body should be rather vulnerable. When he possessed Harry in the DOM his body disappeared - I guess he Apparated it somewhere first? (I'm thinking of Granny Weatherwax wearing the 'I aitn't dead yet' sign when she goes borrowing minds of animals for fear that she'd end up being buried alive by well meaning people finding her body.)

[oryx_leucoryx]

I'm not completely sure what I think, let's try to make some order in the mess.

We agree that from January the focus was on luring Harry to the DOM. We don't know if this was because Tom really wanted the prophecy or because he wanted Harry in a pre-arranged place where he would be unprotected. Can we discern anything from chapter 36? Tom expressed some disappointment, but was he sincere? (Or was the disappointment because Albus got there too fast?)

So what was going on before Christmas?

The 'official' version is that Tom, based on Avery's information, had Lucius Imperiurize first one (but nobody else) of the Order guards and later an Unspeakable in attempt to get the prophecy, that for some unclear reason Naginimort attempted to have a look around on December 18th. Also, officially the early visions, from outside the door, were unintentional, Harry glimpsing on what Tom was focused on (like in DH, when he kept seeing young Gellert stealing the Elder Wand from Gregorovich), but on December 18th Tom saw that Harry had access to his mind, and that Tom himself could see through Harry, and this inspired Tom to use the connection deliberately.

Some slight variations would be that Tom was hoping for Nagini to get him the prophecy (if she could manage it physically, she should have been able to pass the identity test - the way Lily's anti-Tom protection worked on Quirrell when he was physically possessed by Tom). I don't see the point of Tom's body being physically there yet using the Nagini-possession scheme, it would be too vulnerable, and someone would have to drag it around, physically or magically. And Bode may have been used to help NaginiMort in. If we believe Bode's madness was caused by anything other than touching the prophecy record then we can believe Tom may have touched the prophecy record himself. He may have even heard the prophecy, on December 18th (would that be why Albus called the prophecy watch off? perhaps there really was no Order member on watch when Harry and his friends arrived. OTOH if Albus thought Tom already knew what the prophecy said, why was the whole Occlumency business handled the way it was? I don't think Albus wanted a Harry-Tom encounter before the Horcrux hunt even started, even if he still believed he would be the one to find and destroy most of them). OK, this is a bit confusing, but I think Albus' behavior supports the idea that *Albus* did not think Tom had the chance to hear the prophecy yet.

Of course if the whole thing was a ruse of Tom's then perhaps Bode's injury may have had nothing to do with the plot to get the prophecy or to lure Harry to the DOM. Bode may have been injured in the course of his normal work and Tom may have decided to make it look as though the injury was related to his plot by sending Harry the vision and by sending Bode the homicidal plant.

I wonder why Sturgis was the only Order member that got Imperiurized? For months on end Order members were hanging out by that door. Lucius was in and out of the Ministry for his politicking. Why didn't he try taking out more Order members and harming Albus' reputation further by Imperiurizing more of them?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I agree that this is all rather confusing. One big question I have is how well Tom was ever able to see into Harry's mind. If Harry's mind was still open to Tom, then wouldn't Tom have been able to learn the whole prophecy once Albus shared it with Harry?


----I wonder why Sturgis was the only Order member that got Imperiurized? For months on end Order members were hanging out by that door. Lucius was in and out of the Ministry for his politicking. Why didn't he try taking out more Order members and harming Albus' reputation further by Imperiurizing more of them?

Good question. I'm not convinced that Sturgis was Imperiused. As you say, Lucius was regularly at the Ministry. So, despite the trio's theory in chapter 24, there was nothing especially coincidental about Sturgis being on guard duty on the same day that Harry saw Lucius at the Ministry. It's very possible that watchwizard Eric Munch caught Sturgis lurking outside the DOM under an invisibility cloak at 1:00 a.m. and simply assumed that Sturgis was trying to break in. The claim that he was "attempting to force his way through a top-security door" might just be hyperbole.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I realized I haven't replied to this.

Albus claimed he believed Harry's mind to be safe from Tom after the possession attempt at the Ministry - Harry's willingness, even wish, to die was too painful to Tom. So either that or Albus no longer cared if Tom heard the prophecy. The latter was Jodel's proposal, assuming the entire deal with the prophecy was a ruse by Albus. While I do think Albus behaves as if it was a ruse (why not just destroy the damn thing from the start?), I also think there was one bit of information there he did not want Tom to have - the part implying Harry was Tom's Horcrux ('as his equal').

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

It might make sense if Albus realized that Tom had been playing him under this scenario. At that point, it wouldn't matter if he heard the prophecy through Harry - he already had it. And really, Albus Dumbledore, bearer of the thousand titles who doesn't actually want power, no sirree, admitting failure or a loss of control? I don't think so.