Why didn't Voldemort get the prophecy for himself?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

In Chapter 35 of OotP, Lucius tells Harry

The only people who are permitted to retrieve a prophecy from the Department of Mysteries, Potter, are those about whom it was made, as the Dark Lord discovered when he attempted to use others to steal it for him.

Harry asks why Voldemort didn't try to get the prophecy himself, and Bellatrix responds:

Get it himself? The Dark Lord, walk into the Ministry of Magic, when they are so sweetly ignoring his return? The Dark Lord, reveal himself to the Aurors, when at the moment they are wasting their time on my dear cousin?”

Harry answers:

So, he’s got you doing his dirty work for him, has he? Like he tried to get Sturgis to steal it - and Bode?

(Back in chapter 26 the kids had decided after one of Harry's Voldie!Visions that Lucius had put the Imperius Curse on both Sturgis Podmore and Broderick Bode in order to use them to steal a "weapon" from the DOM.)

And Lucius affirms that Harry is correct:

Very good, Potter, very good… But the Dark Lord knows you are not unintell—

This exchange invites us readers to conclude that Voldemort originally didn't know about the restrictions on the prophecy orbs. Furthermore, once he learned about them from Rookwood, he still never risked entering the Ministry to get the prophecy for himself.

I am wondering, though, whether we can be certain that everything that Lucius and Bellatrix tell Harry here is true. They have every reason to lie to Harry in order to get what they want. Moreover, even if Lucius and Bellatrix believe that what they are saying is true, that doesn't mean it is; it may simply be what they've been told by Voledmort.



First, did Voldemort really not know anything about the restrictions on who could access the prophecy?

Our evidence for this is that Sturgis Podmore and Broderick Bode were supposedly both Imperisued in order to get them to steal the orb. However, this is an idea that is expressed by Harry, and it's possible that Lucius simply chooses not to contradict him.

It could be that Lucius actually had nothing to do with Podmore getting caught lurking outside the DOM. Or, if Lucius did use the Imperius Curse on Podmore, his goal may not have been for Podmore to retrieve the prophecy, but simply for Podmore to get caught trying to break into the DOM. That would remove one of the Order's guards and alert the Ministry that Dumbledore's people were skulking about the DOM. Therefore, Podmore's arrest is not necessarily evidence of Voldemort's ignorance.

Bode's injury is also not evidence that Voldemort was completely ignorant of who could and could not pick up the orb. Since Bode was an Unspeakable, Voldemort may have believed that he had special access to the prophecies. And perhaps Bode usually was somebody who could remove the orbs from the shelves; he just couldn't do so under magical coercion.



Second, did Voldemort really never go to the Ministry, himself, to try to get the prophecy?

What's interesting is that there's a fair amount of evidence that Voldemort did go to the Ministry earlier in the year. We know for certain that Nagini was in the Ministry a few days before Christmas, and Harry was "inside the snake's head" when it bit Arthur. It's possible that Harry visited Nagini's mind because they were both horcruxes. However, since Harry never again had a vision from the snake's perspective, it seems much more likely that Voldemort was possessing Nagini at the time. Indeed, Severus tells Harry:

You seem to have visited the snake’s mind because that was where the Dark Lord was at that particular moment. He was possessing the snake at the time and so you dreamed you were inside it, too.--OotP24

Thus, despite what Bellatrix says, Voldemort very likely did go to the Ministry in the form of a possessed Nagini.

It's also interesting that Bode may have been admitted to St. Mungo's around the same time that Mr. Weasley was, maybe even on the same day. We know that he was definitely there on the day that the kids first visited Arthur. And, in chapter 25, we learn from the Daily Prophet that Bode had been injured "some weeks" prior to his death. According to the HP Lexicon, Arthur was bitten on December 18th and Bode's death was reported on January 14th.

Maybe, then, on the same night that Arthur was bitten, an Imperiused Bode was unlocking and opening doors so that the snake could make its way toward the Hall of Prophecies. And that's why nobody could find the snake afterward.

So, if Voldemort was at the Ministry, then why didn't he remove his orb? Perhaps the answer is that he couldn't remove it.

Note that Voldemort's name isn't actually on the prophecy orb, either as "Voldemort" or as "Tom Riddle." The prophecy is labeled:

S.P.T. to A.P.W.B.D.
Dark Lord and (?)Harry Potter

Was "Dark Lord" an epithet used specifically by Voldemort, or was it a more general title for powerful dark wizards? Was the prophecy even about Voldemort?

Of course, if Voldemort had discovered that he was unable to pick up the orb, he would never have admitted that to his followers.

Comments

[oryx_leucoryx]

OK, counterargument:

The plan to lure Harry to the Ministry involved Kreacher creating a distraction (by injuring Buckbeak) to keep Sirius from answering the floo if Harry were to check on him. I doubt Tom arranged with Narcissa each time he sent Harry that vision. I also doubt the DEs were ready to intercept Harry each time the dream was sent. No, Sirius' image only appeared in June, after Tom believed he had Albus' most loyal followers removed from Hogwarts.

But the plan to lure Harry to the DOM with Sirius as bait may have hatched as early as Christmas break, and the first step of putting it to motion was during Harry's Occlumency lesson, half a day before Tom was ecstatically happy about the escape of his loyal DEs from Azkaban, among whose numbers was Rookwood. Which means that the plan was formed independently of any information Rookwood could have delivered. (And the dream in which Harry pushed through the door took place before the dream in which Harry saw Rookwood talking to Tom.)

Notice how both Albus and Tom make sure Harry doesn't know what Tom is after in the DOM? Albus has the Order pretending Tom was after some 'weapon' while Tom always refers to 'it'. Collusion?

Also, for a plan in which Kreacher distracts Sirius, Tom must have known he had a mole at 12GP, yet he never suspected Kreacher survived the cave adventure. Which means Narcissa covered for him, perhaps only ever mentioning him as 'the Black family elf'. She was willing to take a heavy risk not only for her son and husband but for a family elf who wasn't even hers. And anyone wonders why Kreacher felt loyalty to her side of the family?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

----I doubt Tom arranged with Narcissa each time he sent Harry that vision. I also doubt the Des were ready to intercept Harry each time the dream was sent. No, Sirius' image only appeared in June, after Tom believed he had Albus' most loyal followers removed from Hogwarts.

Oh nuts, I said that yesterday that Harry's dreams changed in chapter 26 on Jan. 21st. That should have been Feb. 21. So....

Feb. 21--The dreams about the DOM change for the first time--the door is now ajar and Harry is about to push it open when Ron's snore wakes him up

Feb. 24--The vision about Rookwood and Tom happens

March 8--During his Occlumency lesson, Harry goes through the door for the first time and gets as far as the circular room and is trying to decide which door to take when Snape interrupts him.

Early April--Dumbledore gets sacked

The next day--Harry reaches the Hall of Prophecies in his dream. He's making his way through the room when a firecracker wakes him up.

Sometime in May-- He gets as far as row 97 in the vision when we wakes himself up by speaking aloud "Just bit a further."

During May--On most nights, Harry has "stupid dreams about exams."

He also suspected that part of his mind -the part that often spoke in Hermione’s voice — now felt guilty on the occasions it strayed down that corridor ending in the black door, and sought to wake him before he could reach the journeys end.

During the Astronomy O.W.L in June- Hagrid gets sacked and McGonagall gets stunned

The next day--Harry sees the vision about Sirius

Just to play devil's advocate, let's suppose that, starting in February, the only times that Tom sent Harry the visions of the DOM door were the times that we read about. In that case, Tom sent Harry visions on Feb. 21, March 8, one day in early April, a few times in May, and the day of the History O.W.L. in June. If it really was just those times, then it could be that Tom did make arrangements with his people each time he sent Harry a vision.

It's also interesting that Albus was not inside Hogwarts at the time of the vision on March 8th; he was somewhere outside with Firenze. So, I agree that Tom probably cared about Albus being out of the way, but maybe he wasn't that concerned about Hagrid and Minerva.



---- and the first step of putting it to motion was during Harry's Occlumency lesson, half a day before Tom was ecstatically happy about the escape of his loyal DEs from Azkaban, among whose numbers was Rookwood. Which means that the plan was formed independently of any information Rookwood could have delivered. (And the dream in which Harry pushed through the door took place before the dream in which Harry saw Rookwood talking to Tom.)

As I said above, I think the memory during the first Occlumency lesson could very well have been Harry's own. Furthermore, for over a month after this lesson, Harry continued having the same dreams about the corridor that had started during the summer. So I'm not sure if that memory was part of Tom's plan. It could be that Tom "jogged" Harry's memory so that he would figure out that his dreams were about the DOM.



----Also, for a plan in which Kreacher distracts Sirius, Tom must have known he had a mole at 12GP, yet he never suspected Kreacher survived the cave adventure.

I'm not so sure that Kreacher was the mole. You've read Swythyv's Hydraulic Forces, right?

[oryx_leucoryx]

We know Kreacher was involved because he was the one who answered Harry's floo call following Harry's vision, after making sure Sirius would not be available to answer. OK, it is still possible that someone else Imperiurized him to do so. swythyv's proposal that Remus was (one of?) the mole(s) has little support. If he was, he managed to conceal his allegiance not only from the Order but specifically from Severus long after OOTP - to the point that that Severus risked everything in attempt to save Remus in the 7P battle.

I accept that the memory of Harry going down the corridor with Arthur may have been authentically Harry's, leaving the vision from late February as the first clear indication for Tom's plan to lure Harry to the DOM. (A plan Severus and Albus were aware of, at least in general, and the reason for Harry's Occlumency lessons. Only the specific bait may have been something the two were not aware of.) In any case, the fact that the door was ajar before the vision of Rookwood's interview supports the conclusion that the latter vision was an intentional sending and Harry did not see it in real time. Therefore the contents may have been a scene Tom and Rookwood acted out rather than a true event in which Rookwood appraised Tom of new information.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

---I accept that the memory of Harry going down the corridor with Arthur may have been authentically Harry's, leaving the vision from late February as the first clear indication for Tom's plan to lure Harry to the DOM.

Agreed. And whether or not he waited until June to include Sirius in the vision isn't really that important, I don't think.

----In any case, the fact that the door was ajar before the vision of Rookwood's interview supports the conclusion that the latter vision was an intentional sending and Harry did not see it in real time. Therefore the contents may have been a scene Tom and Rookwood acted out rather than a true event in which Rookwood appraised Tom of new information.

Yes, which means that we have no reliable information about 1. what caused Bode's injury, 2. what the actual restrictions are for who can and cannot retrieve a prophecy, and 3. whether or not Tom originally knew about these restrictions.

So, that leaves us with a couple of questions (at least)....

First, were Harry's dreams before Feb. 21 also deliberately sent by Tom? I agree with you that they probably were; which likely means that, regardless of his true feelings on the matter, Tom wanted Harry and the Order to believe that he was, indeed, obsessed with "it" in the DOM.

Second, Harry would have gone anywhere to save Sirius, so why did Tom lure Harry to the prophecy, in particular, rather than somewhere else? I feel that Bella's claim is a load of BS; if Tom really wanted the prophecy, then he would have come to get it himself. Therefore, it seems that Tom specifically wanted Harry to pick up that orb. I can think of two reasons why this might be: 1. Tom could not pick up the orb himself. 2. The question mark next to Harry's name raised doubts (either for him or others) about whether the prophecy was about Harry. Or it could be for both of these reasons.

Maybe, for instance, Tom wanted everyone (especially his followers) to believe that it had been prophesied that the Dark Lord would kill Harry Potter. The proof was in that orb--nobody could pick up a prophecy orb unless the prophecy was about them, not even the Unspeakables (doesn't matter whether it was true or not). Thus, he wanted Harry to pick up the orb in order to show that the prophecy was truly about the two of them before he killed the boy.


Finally, if Tom wasn't spending that whole year obsessing about what the prophecy said, then what was he doing instead?

[oryx_leucoryx]

I'm not completely sure what I think, let's try to make some order in the mess.

We agree that from January the focus was on luring Harry to the DOM. We don't know if this was because Tom really wanted the prophecy or because he wanted Harry in a pre-arranged place where he would be unprotected. Can we discern anything from chapter 36? Tom expressed some disappointment, but was he sincere? (Or was the disappointment because Albus got there too fast?)

So what was going on before Christmas?

The 'official' version is that Tom, based on Avery's information, had Lucius Imperiurize first one (but nobody else) of the Order guards and later an Unspeakable in attempt to get the prophecy, that for some unclear reason Naginimort attempted to have a look around on December 18th. Also, officially the early visions, from outside the door, were unintentional, Harry glimpsing on what Tom was focused on (like in DH, when he kept seeing young Gellert stealing the Elder Wand from Gregorovich), but on December 18th Tom saw that Harry had access to his mind, and that Tom himself could see through Harry, and this inspired Tom to use the connection deliberately.

Some slight variations would be that Tom was hoping for Nagini to get him the prophecy (if she could manage it physically, she should have been able to pass the identity test - the way Lily's anti-Tom protection worked on Quirrell when he was physically possessed by Tom). I don't see the point of Tom's body being physically there yet using the Nagini-possession scheme, it would be too vulnerable, and someone would have to drag it around, physically or magically. And Bode may have been used to help NaginiMort in. If we believe Bode's madness was caused by anything other than touching the prophecy record then we can believe Tom may have touched the prophecy record himself. He may have even heard the prophecy, on December 18th (would that be why Albus called the prophecy watch off? perhaps there really was no Order member on watch when Harry and his friends arrived. OTOH if Albus thought Tom already knew what the prophecy said, why was the whole Occlumency business handled the way it was? I don't think Albus wanted a Harry-Tom encounter before the Horcrux hunt even started, even if he still believed he would be the one to find and destroy most of them). OK, this is a bit confusing, but I think Albus' behavior supports the idea that *Albus* did not think Tom had the chance to hear the prophecy yet.

Of course if the whole thing was a ruse of Tom's then perhaps Bode's injury may have had nothing to do with the plot to get the prophecy or to lure Harry to the DOM. Bode may have been injured in the course of his normal work and Tom may have decided to make it look as though the injury was related to his plot by sending Harry the vision and by sending Bode the homicidal plant.

I wonder why Sturgis was the only Order member that got Imperiurized? For months on end Order members were hanging out by that door. Lucius was in and out of the Ministry for his politicking. Why didn't he try taking out more Order members and harming Albus' reputation further by Imperiurizing more of them?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

I agree that this is all rather confusing. One big question I have is how well Tom was ever able to see into Harry's mind. If Harry's mind was still open to Tom, then wouldn't Tom have been able to learn the whole prophecy once Albus shared it with Harry?


----I wonder why Sturgis was the only Order member that got Imperiurized? For months on end Order members were hanging out by that door. Lucius was in and out of the Ministry for his politicking. Why didn't he try taking out more Order members and harming Albus' reputation further by Imperiurizing more of them?

Good question. I'm not convinced that Sturgis was Imperiused. As you say, Lucius was regularly at the Ministry. So, despite the trio's theory in chapter 24, there was nothing especially coincidental about Sturgis being on guard duty on the same day that Harry saw Lucius at the Ministry. It's very possible that watchwizard Eric Munch caught Sturgis lurking outside the DOM under an invisibility cloak at 1:00 a.m. and simply assumed that Sturgis was trying to break in. The claim that he was "attempting to force his way through a top-security door" might just be hyperbole.

[oryx_leucoryx]

I realized I haven't replied to this.

Albus claimed he believed Harry's mind to be safe from Tom after the possession attempt at the Ministry - Harry's willingness, even wish, to die was too painful to Tom. So either that or Albus no longer cared if Tom heard the prophecy. The latter was Jodel's proposal, assuming the entire deal with the prophecy was a ruse by Albus. While I do think Albus behaves as if it was a ruse (why not just destroy the damn thing from the start?), I also think there was one bit of information there he did not want Tom to have - the part implying Harry was Tom's Horcrux ('as his equal').

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

It might make sense if Albus realized that Tom had been playing him under this scenario. At that point, it wouldn't matter if he heard the prophecy through Harry - he already had it. And really, Albus Dumbledore, bearer of the thousand titles who doesn't actually want power, no sirree, admitting failure or a loss of control? I don't think so.

[oryx_leucoryx]

If it really was just those times, then it could be that Tom did make arrangements with his people each time he sent Harry a vision.

So Tom had a dozen fighters walk in and out of the Ministry some 7-10 times or so, *and* arranged for no Order member to be available to answer the floo on all those occasions, in case Harry took the bait that time?

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

No, he sent those visions at times when he knew no Order members were around, maybe when Sirius was all alone and passed out drunk.

And he didn't need to send a dozen fighters to the Ministry each time. All he needed to do was send one person to the Ministry, perhaps Peter, to watch for Harry. The others just needed to be prepared and ready to go once they knew that Harry had taken the bait.