Why no Harry Potter, eh?
May. 27th, 2012 11:01 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
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deathtocapslockSo I looked at ONTD's "Ten of the most Epidemically Overrated Books," and was incensed to find that books like On the Road and The Great Gatsby made the list but the Harry Potter series didn't (though at least the Twilight series did). I mean really, Harry Potter is the epitome of an overrated book series, given that there are people seriously making the point that it's so deep and meaningful and needs to be read in AP English classes. Never mind that it's a children's book series!
Well, these were the people who said that a bunch of authors besides Rowling disliked the idea of fanfiction without bothering to consider WHY they might feel that way (specifically, that Rowling is the only one who's all that fandom savvy because she's modern in a way that the others aren't). Maybe they just think Rowling is their darling author too, and you can't say anything bad about her.
Well, these were the people who said that a bunch of authors besides Rowling disliked the idea of fanfiction without bothering to consider WHY they might feel that way (specifically, that Rowling is the only one who's all that fandom savvy because she's modern in a way that the others aren't). Maybe they just think Rowling is their darling author too, and you can't say anything bad about her.
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Date: 2012-05-27 03:35 pm (UTC)(I actually liked the series - except for books 5 & 6 - the books are fun and entertaining. But they're not great literature.)
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Date: 2012-05-27 03:50 pm (UTC)It doesn't take great literature to show blatant favoritism, and showing favoritism as being the right way is not great literature.
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Date: 2012-05-27 06:47 pm (UTC)Which is sad really. It's exactly the reason our community inspires so much rage in Rabids. You can like a series, you can love a series and acknowledge its faults. In my opinion, that's all we're doing here- saying "I had fun reading the books and I enjoy them, but these were things that were a little silly/made no sense/I would have changed/I did not care for". How that translates into "I hate all the books forever and ever" makes no sense. Saying the books are overrated isn't a critique of the books in this case. It's a critique of the behavior of the fans.
And even that isn't as dumb as when people accuse Slytherin/Voldemort/Malfoy fans of being JK-Haters. Did she not create those characters? Are those people not fans of characters in the series?
There's entirely too much "one way to like it" mentality in this fandom, and that's why the fandom is now an apocalyptic wasteland. Nobody wants to come out with fanfic or art or anything new for fear that someone will be nasty to them for "not doing it right". The fandom did this to itself, and it's a damn shame nobody realized until it was too late that fandom needs happy fan activity to survive in the long run. In fact, I think that's what happened. At a certain point, the fandom stopped being fueled by fun and connections and started being fueled purely by rage, hate, and ship wars. Once the final book came out, there was no more fuel.
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Date: 2012-05-28 01:50 am (UTC)I wonder, though, if her words would be considered gospel by the next generation of Potter fans (I'm pretty sure that the people who enjoyed the series when it came out will be buying the books for their kids).
Also: people think Slytherin/Voldemort/ Malfoy fans are JK haters? The mind boggles....
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Date: 2012-05-28 02:03 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 02:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 02:50 am (UTC)That said, there are still parts that really intrigue me - especially some of the hidden symbolisms that some people still don't accept. Again - I think she dropped so many of them in the end. The alternative is that she never actually intended them and they were all subconscious. As an artist, I can accept that this is possible - and they are still wonderfully interesting to discuss and discover - hence the reason I'm still in the fandom and why I can still see real merit in discussing the works - even in AP lit. But in the end, the reason they didn't come to be what they could have been is also a needed part of that discussion - as is questioning the choices she DID make and just why they resonate for many. -- Hwyla
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Date: 2012-05-28 03:43 am (UTC)Guess #1- Nerd/"loser" factor of the fans attracted. Persons who have been picked on + sudden strength in numbers = jerkitude. That's the only way I can explain how Potter fans can en masse claim to identify with Hermione because they were "picked on" and "read books" and then turn around and pick on someone else.
Guess #2 is a controversial one. Threat factor. Think about it- I could go into an R/Hr forum with the username "R/D Supremacist", an icon featuring Ron and Draco making out, a signature that says "My Ron/Draco pisses all over your shitty R/Hr ship" and post a paragraph long theory about why Draco is the perfect partner for Ron, and nobody would blink. Same forum, someone makes a neutral post, has a neutral icon, but has "Harmony is my anti-drug" for a signature and the users of said forum will more likely "start" with them than they would with me.
Take the response to the H/Hr dance scene in the movie. "It was so lame", "it was awkward and stupid", "I LOL'D so hard at how it sucked!". Any time fans feel legitimately threatened, they'll attack. That's why there are some fandoms where slash ships and het ships can coexist. I found this out when one of my friends was telling me that in the House fandom, slash and het ships collide. Apparently, House/Wilson posed an actual threat of becoming canon.
Another theory spawning from #2- Insecurity. "Ur just jellis" is a real thing for fans. It's true what they say- if you're secure, you don't need outside validation. There's a whole lot of insecurity which inspires a feeling of being cornered. There's no other explanation. Why else would Joe Blow in Canada deriving enjoyment from Katie/Lavender have the slightest effect on Jane Doe in California's enjoyment of any aspect of the series?
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Date: 2012-05-28 12:21 pm (UTC)Harpsi has it right I reckon. My 'cracked' acquaintance and other slavish pro-Jo canon fans wouldn't be nearly so uptight about H/Hr if it wasn't such a threat to their own preferred pairings.
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Date: 2012-05-28 12:28 pm (UTC)Not like her two sycophantic interviewers. No, the Interview o' Doom stands as a damning indictment of *their* complete lack of any attempt at 'professionalism', as testament to their cloying fanboy adoration of their dear 'Jo'. Ugh.
I have to wonder what she'd say if she knew that sixty year old women (*hem*LaurelCamer*hem*) were calling seventeen year old fans "little bitches" for enjoying Harry/Luna ...
Really? Wow. Before my time. But yes, dear Laurel proved to be - just in my own personal experience with her - a quite unpleasant and vindictive small-minded witch. But I'm so pleased I met her, she was so (sadly) FUNNY. Heaps of amusement with Laurel over a few years. A credit to her ship and canon faith. :-)
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Date: 2012-05-28 12:34 pm (UTC)Damn. This is really quite saddening.
I mean really, Harry Potter is the epitome of an overrated book series, given that there are people seriously making the point that it's so deep and meaningful and needs to be read in AP English classes.
Ugh. You are so right.
Maybe one day I'll take one of those HP literature classes (are we talking high school or university?) and criticise the books to the max. I suppose the trick in these course is by examining the HP books *piecemeal* (like hwyla's comment about some of the 'hidden symbolism'). Because the humongous errors and huge failure of the series is mostly apparent when the books are examined as a whole, as an overall story that is supposed to make sense. That's where Rowling was totally useless.
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Date: 2012-05-28 01:14 pm (UTC)It looks like in the clearing haze of the apocalyptic Potter fandom, we're all starting to slowly pull the truth away from the propaganda painted by "the other side". At least on LJ. And Brad, I beg you, please, please, please stay on text-based forums with clear comment-and-reply systems when it comes to the Harry Potter fandom. I have traveled to other areas of the internet and seen the versions of fandom there, and though the lands are rich with pretty pictures ready for mining, the inhabitants there are savages, ignorant in the ways of communication, self-indulgent, and have mastered the art of ignorance alchemy so that they can form their stupidity into poison darts and shoot it at unsuspecting people. It causes a severe, instantaneous inflamatory itch in the rage sections of the victim's brain and it can last for weeks. Worst of all, there's no chance of getting the antedote because it's all Guerrilla warfare in the most literal Wikipedia definition of the term.
Laurel?! Funny?! She scared the Hell out of me! The only other person I was more afraid of was an irregular player. I shall not say this person's name because it'd be just my luck that this person would be around and I don't wanna give them the satisfaction. (Hint: I mention said person to Static in the last post on my LJ that you ever commented on).
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Date: 2012-05-28 02:05 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 02:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-28 02:17 pm (UTC)Of course, that's preposterous because it could be true of any media aimed at children that wants wide demographic appeal. You might as well say that the Pokemon games are great works of art deserving of study because, see, only as an ADULT could you truly appreciate the references Cyrus made to things like war in the fourth generation. She also argued for the importance of the "message," that you can choose to stay away from bad things (like Harry chose not to be in Slytherin!), which, my mind just boggles.
The irony is that Pokemon has aged and expanded its demographic far more gracefully and successfully than Harry Potter ever has, but I digress.
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Date: 2012-05-28 11:28 pm (UTC)As a longtime member of the Sherlock Holmes fandom, I just don't get this. This kind of vicious infighting is almost nonexistent in that fandom. Some fans believe Holmes slept with Irene Adler, others (like me) don't, but I've never seen anybody personally attack anyone else over believing that. And despite the overwhelming evidence Holmes and Watson were straight, there are still shippers who pair them. They even have their own websites (Cox & Co. being one) where they post sexually explicit fanfic about their "secret love." Most fans consider that arrant nonsense, but they don't rip off anybody's head over it.
Of course, the SH fandom attracts only the highly intelligent and well-educated. (I am referring to fans of the original stories, not those hideous trashworks by that King person. Those books attract HP level dimwits. I always say those are SH books for people who aren't smart enough to be real SH fans.) Highly intelligent and educated people seem to be less aggressive and hellbent on proving their points than the general population anyway. IOW, they find it much easier and less threatening to discuss contrary ideas than most people. A lot of them actually consider it entertaining to explore way out ideas.
The rabid canon whores of the HP fandom do seem to be less intelligent than the questioners. For example, I needed a dose of rank stupidity a few months ago, so I looked at dedfromsnake. One of the members had ripped into the post I made about the AU scenario of Tom Riddle being a spiritually-developed social reformer. This um, person--I'm trying really hard not to call names here--insisted that I had called JKR both an American and a Tea Partier. Not just once, but multiple times! Never mind that I've never said that even once, and I'll pay $50 US cash money to anyone who can prove I have. Never mind there was no reference at all to JKR in that entire post. Not one person in that entire forum said, "Um, what are you talking about? She's never said anything like that. There's certainly nothing like that in this post you're citing." Nope. They all eagerly jumped on the bandwagon, trying to outdo each other in talking about how stupid, mean, and crazy I am. Anyone who lacks (1) such basic reading comprehension skills and (2) the ability to think independently is clearly of inferior intellect. That's not a personal attack; it's a statement of fact.
TBC
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Date: 2012-05-28 11:28 pm (UTC)For example, I belonged to the Dresden Files TV show fandom, and tried to bring to it same kind of mentality found in the SH fandom and here at DTCL. Specifically, I said the backstory of one of the characters didn't make sense and proposed an elaborate rewrite of his history that was, frankly, a whole lot more interesting and exciting than show canon. This one woman, a self-appointed guardian of the show, characters, and actors, just went totally ballistic. She called me every foul name in the book, followed me around the Internet attacking me, and trashed my ideas to other people who didn't know me. No attempts on my part to have a reasonable discussion worked with her. The last straw was when she stole five pages of my words and put them into her fanfic! When I politely pointed out what she'd done and asked for co-author credit, she went even crazier, "diagnosing" me with all kinds of mental illnesses I've never had, but which, coincidentally, just happened to apply really well to her. (I'm not suggesting I didn't get angry during this fight, but I never descended to personal attacks or her kind of viciousness.) Some of those really hateful HP fans are just unstable, like this woman.
You can't fix stupid, and you can't fix crazy. You can just do your best to avoid them.
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Date: 2012-05-29 01:29 am (UTC)Seriously? I remember your post and I don't remember you mentioning JKR at all. The only American that you talked about was an American evangelist. And I don't know how on earth one could gather that you were calling JKR an American - and a Tea Partier at that! How did an AU hypothetical about Tom Riddle turn into an assumption about JKR's nationality and political affiliation? (To be honest, I'm surprised that you weren't accused of being a blind Tom Riddle/Voldemort fangirl for suggesting what would have happened if he had been a good person. )
By the way, are the members of dedfromsnake the same people who were members of HMS STFU?
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Date: 2012-05-29 02:18 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-29 02:20 am (UTC)Unfortunately, that's often one of those things that's easier said than done. I speak from bitter experience here.
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Date: 2012-05-29 02:50 am (UTC)That's because I didn't. Unlike them, you have good reading comprehension.
How did an AU hypothetical about Tom Riddle turn into an assumption about JKR's nationality and political affiliation?
I don't get that either, unless one assumes that any reference to an American evangelical must necessarily refer to the Tea Party. (The book I quoted was published in 2003, several years before the TP existed. And I made it clear the minister was quite liberal in his views.) Even so, I don't know where they fit JKR in there, unless one assumes that any reference to her books must necessarily refer to her, also.
(To be honest, I'm surprised that you weren't accused of being a blind Tom Riddle/Voldemort fangirl for suggesting what would have happened if he had been a good person. )
I kind of was. A few of them kept squealing, "But Voldemort is a bad guy! It says that right in the books! How can she not get that?" Never mind that I'd made it clear that I did get that, and I was proposing an AU scenario. Again, poor reading comprehension.
By the way, are the members of dedfromsnake the same people who were members of HMS STFU?
Yes. That's the forum they started to keep their idiocy going after they closed STFU out of embarrassment at getting hoist with their own petard.
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Date: 2012-05-29 02:51 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-05-29 03:52 am (UTC)What was that about? (Only the short version, if possible.)
So does this mean Severus fans are the greatest threat to Rowlingbots? I thought STFU was against all unorthodox interpretations and ships.
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Date: 2012-05-29 12:25 pm (UTC)The boss of The Leaky Cauldron web site and author of 'Harry, A History' - one of the two sycophant interviewers of the Interview o' Doom - 'Melissa Anelli' I think is the name? - is the worst example of this I've ever come across. Her fawning adoration of Rowling and manic attempts to glean DEEP AND MEANINGFUL themes out of Rowling's work - with Rowling nodding uh ha, hmmm, yes, okay as Anelli went further and further down the garden path. If you've ever come across Anelli's web site you'll know what I mean as you laugh along.
(Rowling did it too, of course; maybe she started it. I think some of her infinite interviews after DH were about the 'symbolism' of Harry being 'good', women not being as brave as men/Harry, and so forth. Bah.)
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Date: 2012-05-29 12:59 pm (UTC)One of the main ones is that these people - the really religious pro-OBHWF pro-canon fans - want their ships/canon to obtain in *any* media/situation. They just couldn't stand the fact that H/G failed so badly in the movies, even though they had 'won' with the books. Every movie they'd complain about the H/G canon scenes that were cut, the extra (H/Hr) scenes that were written in, the H/Hr bias of the scriptwriter (Kloves), and so on. They'd chosen their horse in the big HP race and they wanted it to win with the movies too.
Secondly, I found it really interesting how the movies acted as something of a 'lens' in looking at the books again. The wider public's automatic assumption that Harry would end up with the attractive leading lady (Hermione) was poison to the religious H/G fans who honestly just weren't able to comprehend this entirely natural trope (a trope more powerful in Hollywood-influenced movies, maybe) which flew in the face of the formation of their H/G. Haven't you met those sort of fans before? The ones who won't read any fanfics that aren't H/G or OBHWF or canon. Who never accepted any possibility that things could be other than H/G. And who are threatened by any arrangement that would be inconsistent with H/G. Sometimes the reason is because they just lurve their H/G. Other times is because they *can't comprehend* - in their conscious or maybe unconscious arrogance - how it could be any other way. When the movies showed so clearly how it could be another way ... they just didn't want to see it. And would act out the classic psychological behaviours in the ways they tried to avoid seeing it.
(Actually, I've never thought of it quite that way before. The reaction of a will-not-read-anything-but-H/G fan who goes to see the HP movies - as all good HP fans did - and discovers that it's like a H/Hr fanfic, with Emma Watson more beautiful than she should be, Bonnie Wright the antithesis of the canon Ginny and the stream of articles all extolling the H/Hr that was in the films. Interesting.)
Third there was the sheer irritation from the pro-H/Hr crowd who were getting rowdy and joyous every time a movie came out. I've often felt quite sad for the online H/G crowd ... I remember when I discovered LJ, wow, 8+ years ago, and all the LJ icons/avatars I've seen over the years, so many clever uses of Emma Watson. And all the H/G crowd had was ... Bonnie Wright and her .002% of the movie screen time. Hmmm, digressing a bit. Anyway, some of the H/G folk would get threatened, or push back, when the H/Hr people would wax enthusiastically over the exposure that H/Hr would get in every movie. So that's 'indirect' threatening, if you like; from the H/Hr fans of the H/Hr movies, one step removed from the source.
(There's been a couple of interviews where Kloves has admitted his bias, and Rowling has declared that what he saw - the potential H/Hr romance - was indeed there, which must have been poison again for the pro-H/G fans who idolise Rowling.)
I'm sure there are other reasons; it's been a couple of years, hasn't it? But I do remember analysing the posts of my favourite case study in this scenario, a normally stable person whose temperament slowly decayed over the media furore of the approaching DH1, until finally she 'snapped' (mildly) and proved unable to brook any dissension from her assertion that the H/G in the movie (was there any? :-)) was just wonderful ... and the H/Hr was initially mocked, then snarked at, and then finally - classic behaviour! - ignored. I mentioned the H/Hr and was abruptly both defriended and banned without notice. :-) Which, for this fan, was indeed 'snapping'. A beautiful example of going off the rails because of how the movie endorsed a 'ship which competed with the one she continued to try and bray about. Or how she couldn't stand how badly her beloved canon stacked up in the movies. I think 'threatened' is a reasonable description; an external object/force causing the subject to become more and more defensive, her actions atypical. Yeah, that fits. I'd seen other fans react along similar lines too; it was really interesting.