death to capslock

That's interesting. Because as a regular in the Pokemon fandom I see similar complaints about the fans being jerkasses to one another. It seems like there are some fandoms that attract that kind of bad publicity and others that don't. Do you think it's the size of the fandom? Or the fact that there are so many kids in the fandom who might not always be mature? Or is it a combination, or something else entirely?

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My closest guess? A combination plus something else entirely.

Guess #1- Nerd/"loser" factor of the fans attracted. Persons who have been picked on + sudden strength in numbers = jerkitude. That's the only way I can explain how Potter fans can en masse claim to identify with Hermione because they were "picked on" and "read books" and then turn around and pick on someone else.

Guess #2 is a controversial one. Threat factor. Think about it- I could go into an R/Hr forum with the username "R/D Supremacist", an icon featuring Ron and Draco making out, a signature that says "My Ron/Draco pisses all over your shitty R/Hr ship" and post a paragraph long theory about why Draco is the perfect partner for Ron, and nobody would blink. Same forum, someone makes a neutral post, has a neutral icon, but has "Harmony is my anti-drug" for a signature and the users of said forum will more likely "start" with them than they would with me.
Take the response to the H/Hr dance scene in the movie. "It was so lame", "it was awkward and stupid", "I LOL'D so hard at how it sucked!". Any time fans feel legitimately threatened, they'll attack. That's why there are some fandoms where slash ships and het ships can coexist. I found this out when one of my friends was telling me that in the House fandom, slash and het ships collide. Apparently, House/Wilson posed an actual threat of becoming canon.

Another theory spawning from #2- Insecurity. "Ur just jellis" is a real thing for fans. It's true what they say- if you're secure, you don't need outside validation. There's a whole lot of insecurity which inspires a feeling of being cornered. There's no other explanation. Why else would Joe Blow in Canada deriving enjoyment from Katie/Lavender have the slightest effect on Jane Doe in California's enjoyment of any aspect of the series?

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madderbrad.livejournal.com

I do think Harsi Fizz's #2 reason, 'threat factor', is a valid reason for why the HP fandom is just more poisonous. It really became apparent to me when I looked around at reactions during the publicity build-up to the first of the DH movies. Several places I noticed pro-canon fans becoming quite paranoid. My best example was a fervent H/G R/Hr fan on my LJ friends list who kept on bringing up her antipathy towards H/Hr - snarking at it while avowing to be 'unconcerned' at any 'challenge' it posed to her precious canon pairings - until she finally 'cracked' a little when I made a canon-neutral remark to a post she made about the movie one day. It was really interesting to see her slowly decay over a month or two as the H/Hr tidbits from the advance publicity of the movie - dancing in the tent, pictures of Hermione and Harry at the grave, etc - kept coming out, making her precious H/G look so bad.

Harpsi has it right I reckon. My 'cracked' acquaintance and other slavish pro-Jo canon fans wouldn't be nearly so uptight about H/Hr if it wasn't such a threat to their own preferred pairings.

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oryx_leucoryx

Why is threat still a factor for a movie made years after the series was completed?

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If I had to guess, I'd say it was because the movies were hardly known for following canon to the letter. The movies, being visual media, had the ability to throw in subtext that wouldn't have been possible in a book, simply because they could put in background scenes, change the inflections around, etc. Not that they would ever contradict the books' canon per se, but there's still that fear. They don't like other theories surviving in any form.

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madderbrad.livejournal.com

Oh, goodness, several reasons.

One of the main ones is that these people - the really religious pro-OBHWF pro-canon fans - want their ships/canon to obtain in *any* media/situation. They just couldn't stand the fact that H/G failed so badly in the movies, even though they had 'won' with the books. Every movie they'd complain about the H/G canon scenes that were cut, the extra (H/Hr) scenes that were written in, the H/Hr bias of the scriptwriter (Kloves), and so on. They'd chosen their horse in the big HP race and they wanted it to win with the movies too.

Secondly, I found it really interesting how the movies acted as something of a 'lens' in looking at the books again. The wider public's automatic assumption that Harry would end up with the attractive leading lady (Hermione) was poison to the religious H/G fans who honestly just weren't able to comprehend this entirely natural trope (a trope more powerful in Hollywood-influenced movies, maybe) which flew in the face of the formation of their H/G. Haven't you met those sort of fans before? The ones who won't read any fanfics that aren't H/G or OBHWF or canon. Who never accepted any possibility that things could be other than H/G. And who are threatened by any arrangement that would be inconsistent with H/G. Sometimes the reason is because they just lurve their H/G. Other times is because they *can't comprehend* - in their conscious or maybe unconscious arrogance - how it could be any other way. When the movies showed so clearly how it could be another way ... they just didn't want to see it. And would act out the classic psychological behaviours in the ways they tried to avoid seeing it.

(Actually, I've never thought of it quite that way before. The reaction of a will-not-read-anything-but-H/G fan who goes to see the HP movies - as all good HP fans did - and discovers that it's like a H/Hr fanfic, with Emma Watson more beautiful than she should be, Bonnie Wright the antithesis of the canon Ginny and the stream of articles all extolling the H/Hr that was in the films. Interesting.)

Third there was the sheer irritation from the pro-H/Hr crowd who were getting rowdy and joyous every time a movie came out. I've often felt quite sad for the online H/G crowd ... I remember when I discovered LJ, wow, 8+ years ago, and all the LJ icons/avatars I've seen over the years, so many clever uses of Emma Watson. And all the H/G crowd had was ... Bonnie Wright and her .002% of the movie screen time. Hmmm, digressing a bit. Anyway, some of the H/G folk would get threatened, or push back, when the H/Hr people would wax enthusiastically over the exposure that H/Hr would get in every movie. So that's 'indirect' threatening, if you like; from the H/Hr fans of the H/Hr movies, one step removed from the source.

(There's been a couple of interviews where Kloves has admitted his bias, and Rowling has declared that what he saw - the potential H/Hr romance - was indeed there, which must have been poison again for the pro-H/G fans who idolise Rowling.)

I'm sure there are other reasons; it's been a couple of years, hasn't it? But I do remember analysing the posts of my favourite case study in this scenario, a normally stable person whose temperament slowly decayed over the media furore of the approaching DH1, until finally she 'snapped' (mildly) and proved unable to brook any dissension from her assertion that the H/G in the movie (was there any? :-)) was just wonderful ... and the H/Hr was initially mocked, then snarked at, and then finally - classic behaviour! - ignored. I mentioned the H/Hr and was abruptly both defriended and banned without notice. :-) Which, for this fan, was indeed 'snapping'. A beautiful example of going off the rails because of how the movie endorsed a 'ship which competed with the one she continued to try and bray about. Or how she couldn't stand how badly her beloved canon stacked up in the movies. I think 'threatened' is a reasonable description; an external object/force causing the subject to become more and more defensive, her actions atypical. Yeah, that fits. I'd seen other fans react along similar lines too; it was really interesting.

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The sad thing is that it didn't have to be poisonous. If they'd just adopted the "your ship is not my ship, but we know what happened in the end, hey good game" mentality, it'd be fine. But no. They had to gloat. Turn it into a war. Bash other ships. I feel sorry for the H/G shippers who honestly never did anything like that. They had to suffer because of their jerk comrades. R/Hr, I'm a little more sensitive on. Whereas you had H/G shippers, I mostly had war with R/Hr shippers.

H/G never phased me because (proving the theory here) it was unimpressive. Literally, it didn't even hit the radar. It happened, was so minor, I never actually met a fan (Daksian doesn't count), and it left so little an impact that it was like somen noodles to me- depended on the context. I will not inform you of a few H/G Misdemeanors I committed, Brad, but I will say that the camaraderie of That comm Heron Advocate runs makes me more inclined to that side. My spectrum on that ship onlu runs from extreme disgust and disbelief to "that's nice, sweetie, yeah, mm-hmm", and 100% of it has to do with Ginny-Sue of Book 7 not getting into trouble when she does something mean or rude. Hermione got into trouble and was scolded/told off/got detention every now and then, so Ginny ought to as well.

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madderbrad.livejournal.com

If they'd just adopted the "your ship is not my ship, but we know what happened in the end, hey good game" mentality, it'd be fine. But no. They had to gloat. Turn it into a war. Bash other ships. I feel sorry for the H/G shippers who honestly never did anything like that.

See, that was one of the interesting things with my primary case study in this "movie threatening" phenomenon. She was always polite. Firmly stating her admiration for her pro-canon OBHWF stance but accepting/tolerating mentions of the 'other side' in her blog. Happily noting my allegiance to same without turning a hair.

But then over the months leading up to the DH1 movie her behaviour turned ugly, as I have described. Snarking at the H/Hr 'competition' (the movie scenes, not fans). Out of the blue she'd snipe at H/Hr, bring it up out of nowhere (talking to others who were 'safe' H/G brethren). Clearly she felt under attack from the H/Hr propaganda (hence my using the term 'threatened'). And then finally, without warning or announcement, a comment from me with one (to my recollection) *neutral* mention of the mere *existence* of the H/Hr scenes in the movie ("being enjoyed by others") caused her to 'crack' and turn nasty (for her).

Summarising the experience in the terms you've used here - which make it clearer still - she turned from the mature non-poisonous fan into something of a 'jerk comrade'. :-) All through the pressure of the pro-H/Hr buzz flowing through the fandom, from the movie, at the time. It was really interesting, seeing how some people tick. I learnt a couple of new psychological concepts in discussing just this one case with others. Plus it let me look at the never-ending shipping debate in new ways. If even the committed H/G fans were getting antsy over the movie 'competition' then they mustn't have been all that happy/satisfied/confident with their own 'side', right?

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^ What Sweettalkeress said. Let's face it- more people saw the movies than read the books, simply because the movies are more accessible and passively consumable. The movies might be gateways to the books, but even so, more audience with the movies.

The movies could throw in things that would subconciously turn people to whatever it wanted. Virtually no Potter Fan will be able to read this next statement as a basic neutral value, but the truth is, when put visually, H/Hr looks like the obvious couple. People like couples that get along and look like they're friends and allies. Pam and Jim for example.

When consuming the story, a book can be put down for a few hours. A movie is all in one shot, and easily tricks the mind by forcing in more senses. People like R/Hr, but after spending three and a half hours watching them bicker, it's like spending time with a real couple. It's exhausting being around people who do nothing but fight and berate each other.

And the sad truth is that the director really cleaned up a lot of R/Hr- added in as many scenes of them making nice as he could plausibly and leaving out a good deal of their fights. I think R/Hr fans knew on some level that in that context, their relationship was not going to hold up to H/Hr. Thus the resentment. The fury. The feeling of being threatened.

Now, I don't think that real, loyal, true blue R/Hr fans acted on the feelings. I think that a real, loyal, true blue R/Hr shipper would just be like "I get to see my ship on the big screen, my love for it is independent of other ships". And they squealed with each other. But H/Hr fans squealed with each other, too. The problem comes when an insecure vocal jerk sees that squeling and it triggers their defensiveness, which makes them rage, which makes them attack.

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Because as a regular in the Pokemon fandom I see similar complaints about the fans being jerkasses to one another. It seems like there are some fandoms that attract that kind of bad publicity and others that don't. Do you think it's the size of the fandom? Or the fact that there are so many kids in the fandom who might not always be mature? Or is it a combination, or something else entirely?

As a longtime member of the Sherlock Holmes fandom, I just don't get this. This kind of vicious infighting is almost nonexistent in that fandom. Some fans believe Holmes slept with Irene Adler, others (like me) don't, but I've never seen anybody personally attack anyone else over believing that. And despite the overwhelming evidence Holmes and Watson were straight, there are still shippers who pair them. They even have their own websites (Cox & Co. being one) where they post sexually explicit fanfic about their "secret love." Most fans consider that arrant nonsense, but they don't rip off anybody's head over it.

Of course, the SH fandom attracts only the highly intelligent and well-educated. (I am referring to fans of the original stories, not those hideous trashworks by that King person. Those books attract HP level dimwits. I always say those are SH books for people who aren't smart enough to be real SH fans.) Highly intelligent and educated people seem to be less aggressive and hellbent on proving their points than the general population anyway. IOW, they find it much easier and less threatening to discuss contrary ideas than most people. A lot of them actually consider it entertaining to explore way out ideas.

The rabid canon whores of the HP fandom do seem to be less intelligent than the questioners. For example, I needed a dose of rank stupidity a few months ago, so I looked at dedfromsnake. One of the members had ripped into the post I made about the AU scenario of Tom Riddle being a spiritually-developed social reformer. This um, person--I'm trying really hard not to call names here--insisted that I had called JKR both an American and a Tea Partier. Not just once, but multiple times! Never mind that I've never said that even once, and I'll pay $50 US cash money to anyone who can prove I have. Never mind there was no reference at all to JKR in that entire post. Not one person in that entire forum said, "Um, what are you talking about? She's never said anything like that. There's certainly nothing like that in this post you're citing." Nope. They all eagerly jumped on the bandwagon, trying to outdo each other in talking about how stupid, mean, and crazy I am. Anyone who lacks (1) such basic reading comprehension skills and (2) the ability to think independently is clearly of inferior intellect. That's not a personal attack; it's a statement of fact.

TBC

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aikaterini.livejournal.com

/One of the members had ripped into the post I made about the AU scenario of Tom Riddle being a spiritually-developed social reformer. This um, person--I'm trying really hard not to call names here--insisted that I had called JKR both an American and a Tea Partier./

Seriously? I remember your post and I don't remember you mentioning JKR at all. The only American that you talked about was an American evangelist. And I don't know how on earth one could gather that you were calling JKR an American - and a Tea Partier at that! How did an AU hypothetical about Tom Riddle turn into an assumption about JKR's nationality and political affiliation? (To be honest, I'm surprised that you weren't accused of being a blind Tom Riddle/Voldemort fangirl for suggesting what would have happened if he had been a good person. )

By the way, are the members of dedfromsnake the same people who were members of HMS STFU?

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kahran042

I'm pretty sure that they are.

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Seriously? I remember your post and I don't remember you mentioning JKR at all.

That's because I didn't. Unlike them, you have good reading comprehension.

How did an AU hypothetical about Tom Riddle turn into an assumption about JKR's nationality and political affiliation?

I don't get that either, unless one assumes that any reference to an American evangelical must necessarily refer to the Tea Party. (The book I quoted was published in 2003, several years before the TP existed. And I made it clear the minister was quite liberal in his views.) Even so, I don't know where they fit JKR in there, unless one assumes that any reference to her books must necessarily refer to her, also.

(To be honest, I'm surprised that you weren't accused of being a blind Tom Riddle/Voldemort fangirl for suggesting what would have happened if he had been a good person. )

I kind of was. A few of them kept squealing, "But Voldemort is a bad guy! It says that right in the books! How can she not get that?" Never mind that I'd made it clear that I did get that, and I was proposing an AU scenario. Again, poor reading comprehension.

By the way, are the members of dedfromsnake the same people who were members of HMS STFU?

Yes. That's the forum they started to keep their idiocy going after they closed STFU out of embarrassment at getting hoist with their own petard.

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oryx_leucoryx

after they closed STFU out of embarrassment at getting hoist with their own petard

What was that about? (Only the short version, if possible.)

So does this mean Severus fans are the greatest threat to Rowlingbots? I thought STFU was against all unorthodox interpretations and ships.

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aikaterini.livejournal.com

/So does this mean Severus fans are the greatest threat to Rowlingbots? I thought STFU was against all unorthodox interpretations and ships./

Maybe they think that the belief that Severus is a hero is an unorthodox interpretation? *shrugs*

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Given that people apply the "Draco in Leather Pants" trope to Snape on TVTropes (for the record, "Draco in Leather Pants" specifically refers to overlooking or ignoring the evil deeds of a VILLAIN), I'd say that might just be right.

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aikaterini.livejournal.com

/I kind of was. A few of them kept squealing, "But Voldemort is a bad guy! It says that right in the books! How can she not get that?" Never mind that I'd made it clear that I did get that, and I was proposing an AU scenario./

Maybe they see Voldemort as so evil that there's no chance that he could ever be good, not even in an AU scenario. Or they feel that such a scenario undermines Voldemort's role as villain.

/Yes. That's the forum they started to keep their idiocy going after they closed STFU out of embarrassment at getting hoist with their own petard./

What exactly happened? (Unlike Oryx, I don't mind a long version of the events) I'm not that familiar with HMS STFU, so I don't know why or how they closed.

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Maybe they see Voldemort as so evil that there's no chance that he could ever be good, not even in an AU scenario. Or they feel that such a scenario undermines Voldemort's role as villain.

Yeah, I guess, like people who get upset if you point out that Hitler was horribly abused, and that played a role in turning him into a monster. It doesn't excuse his evilness by any means, but the point of researching people like that is to figure out why they turned out that way, so you can find ways to prevent it in the future. But people who think in strictly black-or-white (i.e., extremely childish and unsubtle) terms seem to believe that any reference to a villain being not villainous, even if its clearly an AU, is some kind of denial of their villainy. Of course, if Voldemort weren't such a lame villain, it wouldn't be so easy to undermine him.

I know I talk a lot about Warriors, but they handled this so much better regarding their major villain, Tigerclaw. He's never been depicted as "born irredeemably evil." Instead, he was shown as a smart, strong-willed kitten who was abandoned by his father in a particularly shameful way, and who came under the influence of a bad mentor, who encouraged his worst tendencies. Nobody in the Warriors fandom has suggested that makes him an inferior villain, or suggested it's wrong to have sympathy for him. Even his creators have written positive things about him. No only that, on the official site, there are threads for fans who rave about how great he is, and talk about how much they hate the major series hero, Fireheart. Those fans are not attacked by rabid canon whores, unlike HP. Warriors fans are like the SH fans in that way.

Hmmm. I guess that means Warriors fans are smarter than HP fans. Hah!

TBC

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All I can tell you about why the STFU closed is what they put in their last mod post, which is quoted below in its entirety.

Dear the_hms_stfu members,

This comm has been running for a long time - we've been on JF since September 2005, and were on LJ before that. Harry Potter and the Half-Blood Prince had just come out, and canon deniers were wanking up a storm. Gradually that died down, but the Snapewives were there to pick up the slack.

For a while, though, we've been running on empty. J. K. Rowling gave us the last piece of the canon in 2007, apart from little bits in interviews and the Scottish Book (and who knows when that's going to be published). The crazy shippers have dispersed or locked down, and the Snapewife fervor has been replaced by a kind of forced-but-determined refusal to make any sense. Gone are the days of total batshit insanity and really memorable wank.

And recently we've had a few wanks of our own. Kind of serious ones, too, that have gotten us on unfunny_fandom and made us look bad. That plus the unexceptional nature of what tends to get posted here has made us reconsider the future of this comm. We have decided that the_hms_stfu has had a good run, but it is time for it to close. There will be no new posts here, and you will have to go to dedfromsnake for your Snapewank fix.

Yours,

the mods

(ETA: Thanks for your kind words, you guys. We'll always have Paris!)

What that says to me is, (1) we don't have as many outlets for our mean-spirited ridicule any more, so things are getting boring, and (2) we've been embarrassed by having our fellow piranhas turn on us. Since we can dish it out but can't take it, we're shutting down.

Of course, DFS doesn't just concentrate on Snape-related stuff; it operates the same as STFU, so they can't even be honest and consistent about that.

They're really a pathetic bunch, not worthy of contempt, just sad head-shaking--kind of like Tush Limbo calling women who use birth-control pills sluts.

Edited Date: 2012-05-30 03:44 am (UTC)

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Alright, I'm going to Google to get more of the story, but if you could direct me to posts on the subject, please do. I'm very, very happy to hear that they've closed, and I'm joyfully dancing here. They were needlessly rude to their fellow fans and reading these two parts

recently we've had a few wanks of our own. Kind of serious ones, too, that have gotten us on unfunny_fandom and made us look bad
(Note: I'm sorry, but you people go into shires like Portkey, specific places where fans go to be left alone and enjoy themselves, and you raid their forums to mock them? You are bad. It's one thing if it's a public pan-fandom forum, but when you go to a place like Portkey, you're legit looking for things that will make you angry. That is inexcusably bullying and I defy you to state one reason why it's ok to do that. You can't. You're wrong. You are bullying and you know it and you know in your hearts that you were 100% in the wrong.)

For a while, though, we've been running on empty.

I think it serves them right. That's just what they deserve. Hah. How does it feel now, HMS? Not so much fun to be on the other side, is it? I hope while it was happening you thought about how you treated other people.

What, BTW, is The Scottish Book? Is that Book 7? Did they not like it? If they didn't, then that's hilarious and I have no sympathy. Again, they deserve everything they got. All the bad feelings they generated they got fed right back to them and I'm not one bit sorry.

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There's also an HP wank blog that seems to be tracking our blog just to make fun of us. I don't know if they're the same people, though.

(no subject)

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harpsi-fizz.livejournal.com - Date: 2012-05-30 04:47 pm (UTC) - Expand

(no subject)

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oryx_leucoryx - Date: 2012-05-30 03:43 pm (UTC) - Expand

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I guess some people would be all "baw" about what you said, but your endorsement of the original series made me kinda want to read it. I love stories where there's no sexual/romantic storyline (like "Three Men in a Boat" by Jerome K Jerome). I've really cooled off to shipping for some reason. The only thing that makes me hesitate is the "overwhelming evidence Holmes and Watson were straight" part, because it makes me antsy about a possible love-line. I guess it's unrealistic of me to hope for a totally asexual-aromantic storyline, but I do, and it makes me sad.

(I am referring to fans of the original stories, not those hideous trashworks by that King person. Those books attract HP level dimwits. I always say those are SH books for people who aren't smart enough to be real SH fans.)
I have no idea what you're talking about and can't comment fairly, but I thiiiiink I know what you mean. Shippable material seems, to me, to be brainless. All coupling things to me read as gratuitous stuff shoehorned in (when I write that, "The Austere Academy" always comes to mind; I am not exaggerating when I say that until I read that book, I didn't understand what is meant by "insulting to the audience's intelligence". I legitimately felt it). I know that's not fair, but that's just how I personally see it. I'm picky, I know. I've been ruined by fandom. I indulged in the sweets of shipping for too many years and now can only digest couples that look like "good friends who occasionally kiss".

(Sorry for the tl;dr rant)

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