death to capslock

Ah, the abomination known as Felix Felicis. Another one of Rowling's one-book wonders, a throw-away gimmick that we - and Harry, and all the wizards - are supposed to forget about, for the convenience of Rowling's story. Like the powers of the house elves, who can bring to a halt wizarding infrastructure (train ingress, postal service), easily subdue wizards (Malfoy, Fletcher), Apparate through inpenetrable wards, survive death traps set by the Dark Lord himself ... and yet are restrained to using cleavers and other kitchen utensils in the final battle ... because otherwise they could finish the fight - the war! - with one click of their fingers.

Anyway. :-)

There’s at least one step that has, say, a fifty-fifty chance of blowing up in the brewer’s face. Fatally.

From where did you get this information?

(My apologies if there's a link in your post which I'm not seeing; my browser is partially incapacitated.)

Sluhorn's statement that the potion is 'disastrous' if made wrong, on its own, doesn't necessarily infer that it's *life threatening*. I can make a meal that is a culinary disaster but otherwise innocuous on the physical well-being meter. :-)

There was a huge cauldron of the abomination known as Felix Felicis in HBP, so certainly it didn't seem to be *that* difficult to acquire in the wizarding world (one doesn't normally have products worth millions of dollars in your average teenage classroom).

No, the reason why Harry & Co - or the death eaters - never thought of using FF to win the war was simply because Rowling couldn't think of a way to counter it, or properly incorporate it into her story, I reckon.

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condwiramurs.livejournal.com

Terri isn't using a canon reference regarding the 50-50 chance of that step going wrong. If I read the essay correctly, that's part of the theory itself: from a Watsonian perspective, the stuff must be very difficult indeed to get hold of if Narcissa Malfoy for one isn't buying up every vial of it for her son, and wealthy/connected/desperate people like some of the DEs aren't dosing themselves with it right and left. Why would it be so difficult to get, for people with money, motive, and a willingness to use any method necessary to get it? Because for some reason it's so difficult/too dangerous/too SOMETHING to brew, or have people brew under Imperius, with any regular success.

Terri is positing that, Watsonianly, the reason for the low success rate and lack of eager brewers is that it is inherently, and necessarily, risky to brew even when done correctly because it requires that risk to "purchase" the luck it imbues. You have to be willing to literally sacrifice your life in order to brew it correctly, because there's a 50% chance you will die in the attempt. That willingness (not the death, just the willingness/acceptance of risk) is what gives the potion its power. That neatly answers the question of how such a potion would function magically to provide such incredible, at times life-saving, luck and the question of why the potion is so rarely used.

A fairly elegant theory, IMHO, terri.

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What a very nice restatement of my argument, speaking of elegance! Thanks.

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Condwiramurs, you just made me realize something.

It cannot be brewed under Imperius.

The Imperius can force a brewer to take a certain risk. It can't make the brewer willingly accept it.

Moreover, most of Tom's (or anyone's) attempts to force people to brew it by other means have, equally, miserably failed. And Tom can't figure out why.

"Brew this or I'll kill you!"

Um. If I fail I have 100% chance of dying; if I succeed, a 50% chance.

Doing it right wouldn't be risking death, then. So I try my hardest, doing everything right, and "Avada Kedavra!"

The only way successfully to force someone to brew it, would be to threaten someone else. "Brew it or I'll kill your son!"

I really hope Tom and the WW haven't worked that one out.

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ioanna-ioannina.livejournal.com

I really hope Tom and the WW haven't worked that one out.

Wow, can you see the plot bunny sticking his long ears over there?

I love your theory. It helps me with thinking about dark magic in my own world. Thx!

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the stuff must be very difficult indeed to get hold of if Narcissa Malfoy for one isn't buying up every vial of it for her son

And yet there's a cauldron of the stuff bubbling away in the Potions classroom, just a short distance from the Slytherin chambers. But we don't see Narcissa or anyone else trying to purloin the potion. Or even any significant "MUST GET IT!" reaction from the pureblood students.

One would expect those 'people with money, motive, and a willingness to use any method necessary to get it' to actually try and ... get it ... from Slughorn, yes?

But no. Because Rowling couldn't handle her characters behaving in character. They had to stick to her simplistic plot, eyes ahead, do NOT think for yourselves!

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Master Madderbrad is not being thinking about how wizards is not being logical. House elves is being slaves, but wizards is only ordering house-elves to do what wizards remember house-elves is being able to do. Only bad elf like Dobby, crazy elf, is being leting wizards SEE other things elves can do, because then wizards might be being ordering elves to do them. Elves is being having to obey orders, but if wizards isn't ordering, elves isn't having to obey. So good elf isn't being letting wizard see when elf is doing magic wiards don't know elves can do. Wizards is being thinking, elves is being dusting and sewing and cooking and cleaning and minding babies. Wizards is not being thinking, elf magic is more powerful than wizard, I can use elf in war. Because if one wizard is being using elf in war, all wizards will. And elves is being having to obey.

So the display put on by the Hogwarts line at the battle was a deliberate misdirection, a show right up there with Professor Snape's efforts to persuade the Gryffs he'd tried to poison Trevor. See how harmless and cute we are? In battle, all we can do is stab you in the shin!

Much better to have wizards believing that than to realize they can command beings who can break through most wizard castings like they are tissure paper, but who are constrained to obey absolutely their masters' direct orders.

That's my current theory on the elf-batttle behavior. But you're right, of course, the Doylist explanation is the correct one. But mine is more fun..

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Heh. :-)

It's funny how only Harry Potter ~~is allowed to~~ discovers how awesomely powerful the house elves are, and uses them - TWO of them - at various times to do his work for him.

Even the dark lord knew what the elves could do ... but then never uses them again.

(Rowling has Hermione try and explain it away - even Rowling must have winced over this particular plot gulf - as the dark lord thinking it demeaning to use them, or something. Even though he does. Once.)

I enjoy this Watsonian/Doylist thing - I've seen the words before, in skimming through posts in this community, but the overload on the words (viz the comment of condwiramurs, above) forced me to recourse to Google to find out what it was all about. I've always enjoyed the 'Watsonian' deductions here. Although sometimes it is a bit hard, particularly with the more glaring errors, not to see the big ROWLING WAS A TERRIBLE WRITER sign in front of one's nose.

But in this case ... more fun, maybe, but I don't think it hangs together. I mean, if *Harry Potter* could think to use a house elf - HARRY POTTER - then you'd think the purebloods who'd lived with the elves all their lives would have come up with the idea, just once or twice.

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He. First off, condwiramurs was right; the 50/50 chance is part of my theory, not a canon citation. The only canon citation to it is Sluggy's that I quoted. Which I do think suggests rather strongly that Sluggy means that it's not to be attempted lightly. We remember that in Harry's first-ever potions class Neville made a mistake. His potion melted a pewter cauldron into a twisted blob, filled the air with smoke, burned holes in leather shoes, and caused boils on exposed skiin. That's a first-year potion gone wrong. So in that context, "desperately tricky to brew and disastrous to get wrong" doesn't sound like my "the time I put a CUP instead of a TABLESPOON of vinegar in my vinegar taffy" cooking "disaster story."

It was a small cauldron, not a large one. If a "small cauldron" is comparable to a small saucepan or mixing bowl, that's perhaps a cup or two (I checked a saucepan). If 1 T lasts 4-6 hours, that's perhaps 100-200 hours worth of luck. Yes, probably worth millions if sold. But I don't think it was ever on the open market; my speculation is that it's the last of the batch brewed by Severus for Albus, way back before Tom's return when Snape's life could be risked that way.

To answer your real objection, yes, Mr. Doyle-ist, of course the real reason is Rowling's incompetence. No arguments there! And really, this is not the kind of thing you want to introduce, or why isn't everyone and her sister drinking the stuff--not everyday, she had an out for that (highly toxic if overused) but every important day?

Actually, I remember a great SS/HG story about Hermione trying to do independent research on Felix, and ODing badly. (Snape came in as her illegal ingredient supplier.) Long time ago though--I don't recall its name.

.

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To answer your real objection, yes, Mr. Doyle-ist --

There's that word again. I'm so glad I finally looked up what it/you meant with this post!

But yeah, sometimes it's (too) hard to detour around Rowling's horrible plot voids.

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librasmile.livejournal.com

That IS a fairly elegant theory. =^) And I'm with you on the "nothing comes for free" tip.

However, because my brain likes to amuse itself by leasing bulldozers to fill up the craters JK left in her story, let me propose this.

I always presume that the illogical elements have an underlying rationale. For example, in my view of the Potterverse ( and hopefully it should be very clear that this is only MY view; if you feel that I'm posting it as some kind of authoritarian assertion then I can't really help ya =*) ), which may have been informed by Caeria's wonderful Pet Project, the elves can't use their powers to stop the war because they are bound in some way by some kind of old, ancient covenant. Covenants require sacrifices in order to be active and in force. So perhaps felix felicis really does require some kind of sacrifice as well. One would think so since doesn't use of it always result in some kind of negative rebound? Perhaps the DEs don't brew it or use it because of that negative rebound.

Oh as for Sluggy brewing it - I have another theory that Sluggy was sought after by the DEs because he has some kind of immunity to some of that negative rebound and other naturally occuring dark elements. It would make him immensely valuable to either side and perhaps a natural for Slytherin House...

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Where do you see a negative rebound when Harry used the Felix?

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Love caeria!

Covenants and potions and negative rebound.... I'm not sure that canon establishes a rebound. Harry fFELT unlucky when his dose started to wear off, but it's not clear he really was--I mean his annoying run-ins with Peeves and the Fat Lady served to get him to DD's office that night. Doesn't seem wildly unlucky to me. Sluggy said it was very dangerous in excess (either one-time overdose or over-protracted use), but not otherwise.

And the thing about potions is... a lot of magic is, I do A, it has effect .B. Almost all of the magic Harry learns is like that. There's an Emma Bull quote I used as epigraph for "Red Maned Lion" that's really apropos:

“Hoodoo is all the energy and attention you bring to what you do. Everything you do. The work of your hands, done with all your attention, becomes a container full of energy that you can transfer to someone else. Baking bread is a hoodoo work. So’s putting in a garden. Or fixing an amplifier, or teaching someone else to. If you do it right, with your whole head, and an awareness of where it came from, and where it’s going when it leaves you. The process it’s part of. And you have to be concentrating on energy, not money….

Potions is the only class we see Harry take where the result is "a container full of energy [magic] that you can transfer to someone else." That's its natural result. That's its purpose. If you need an immediate cheer-me-up, you don't start the hour-long process of brewing Euphoria Elixir; you cast a Cheering Charm on yourself. You brew the Euphoria Elixir if you think you might have need of it later. Or want to be able to give it/sell it to someone else.

Which makes if fascinating that Potions is Professor Snape's field. The branch of magic where the result is naturally that MY effort produces YOUR desired effect.

Now, we know that this does happen in other branches of magic--someone is making brooms, containers of energy for pthers to ride. Mr. Ollivander is making wands. Hermione charms those coins, and the DA can use them. But Harry doesn't learn any of that, and the only class where it's intrinsic is potions.

So, on to rebound. And DE's using/brewing Liquid Luck. I think that the risk is assumed by the brewer, and that generally, anyone can use it. That's the nature of a Potion. To be a gift.

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mary-j-59.livejournal.com

That's the nature of a Potion. To be a gift.

Interesting implications there, aren't there?!

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That's the nature of a Potion. To be a gift.

What happens when a brewer sells a potion for profit? Does this interfere with the effectiveness?

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dracasadiablo.livejournal.com

I like this theory.
For a while now I considered it probable that Snape was the one who brewed Felix Felicis. That there was a cost for that and that Harry was meant to have some of the potion from the day one.

Mostly, I theorized that cost for Felix Felicis is something like the broken mirror superstitions. That when making it, potion master have to "give up" all good luck they would have in the upcoming X number of years. So, the potion is nothing more then extremely concentrated good luck, that would be normally spread over the years, taking effect in a short amount of time.
And that is why Snape was oh, so very lucky for the two years he had to live after making it.

But I like this even better.

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Your theory is interesting too! A different way of turning one's one sacrifice into luck that could be given to another.

I snorted at your "Snape was oh, so very lucky for the two years he had to live"! Yeah, that would explain a lot.

Except, you know, he did win. And kept most of the children safe. Including Lily's son, which had seemed impossible for a time. I think that's as much luck as he would have asked for.

And I agree with you, that dose was always intended (by Dumbles) to go to Harry.

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And I agree with you, that dose was always intended (by Dumbles) to go to Harry.

*gak*

No, no, no, the whole ridiculous chain of events in Dumbledore's 'plan' for Harry to win - clues handed over in the inheritance, it's a Quest, no it isn't, yes it is, Harry accidentally becoming master of the Elder wand, accidentally overhearing goblins talking about the Sword, carrying around broken shards of a mirror for no reason BRAIN APPROACHING OVERLOAD - no, no, no, that's enough to blow one's mind.

Now you're saying the FF in book 6 was all part of this 'plan'? But there's absolutely no hint of that.

Mind you, it's hard for me to even start considering your notion, given how STUPID the whole 'you must get Slughorn's memory to prove the theory that in the end is wrong anyway and the 'proof' useless' subplot was. What a horrible series. Those last two books were just catastrophes.

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mary-j-59.livejournal.com

Oh, yes, the absolute pointlessness of those drawn-out private lessons! All that information about Tom's childhood - the carefully crafted comparison between Harry, Tom, and Severus that went absolutely NOWHERE! The implication that poor old Slughorn got manipulated into teaching Potions just so Harry could get that memory. And, you know, we still don't know what a Horcrux really is or how they are created. As to destroying them, I do love the theory that the Dementors could and should have done it. They also proved to be pretty useless, in the end, along with a lot of other things that were built up as important (house unity, anyone? the power of love? house elves, as pointed out above? respect for the magical brethren? And, speaking of magical brethren, what was all that nonsense with Grawp in the previous book!)

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The implication that poor old Slughorn got manipulated into teaching Potions just so Harry could get that memory.

I've never thought of that, seen that implication, until now. Hmm. Yes, I guess you're right. I'm just so ... completely underwhelmed ... by that particular story element, so disengaged by the stupidity of it all, I guess I just couldn't believe we were supposed to swallow that as well. But it makes sense; if we were supposed to believe that the memory was SO OMG IMPORTANT - even though Dumbledore merely accepts it, after all the fuss, with a simple omnipotent "yes, I thought so" - even though the memory/number is no proof at all - even though a simple reference by Riddle about 'seven' being a magic number is nothing close to solid PROOF that he fixated on that number in due course - even though we learn for a FACT later on, given that Harry is a seventh Horcrux, that this was no 'proof' at all, thus showing that Dumbledore's faith in the memory was foolish in the extreme - I guess it follows that Slughorn's employment was part of it all too. Duh.

I'm still underwhelmed by Rowling's pathetic storyline. :-)

And, you know, we still don't know what a Horcrux really is or how they are created.

Neither does Rowling. :-)

As to destroying them, I do love the theory that the Dementors could and should have done it.

Yes, I've read a couple of fanfics that have that happen. I loved the idea when I first read it.

It's funny how Rowling has provided such fodder for writers so much better than her to come up with such gold, isn't it? Well, maybe not 'funny'.

They also proved to be pretty useless, in the end

I think they materialised for half a page in the final battle. Remember how the Trio suddenly were unable to repel a gang of dementors, but were rescued by, uhm, Luna, Ernie and another student?

And, speaking of magical brethren, what was all that nonsense with Grawp in the previous book!)

I guess Grawp was one of the earlier signs that Rowling needed an editor; he really didn't matter to the story at all.

And then book 6 came out with half of that book being pedestrian filler.

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aikaterini.livejournal.com

/All that information about Tom's childhood/

Which was basically only there to provide a few clues about what the Horcruxes were and to show that Tom was as evil a child as he was as an adult. So, don’t worry, Harry, it’s not like you’ll ever turn out to be like him! Your parents loved each other and they were in Gryffindor! So, you have nothing to worry about.

/the carefully crafted comparison between Harry, Tom, and Severus that went absolutely NOWHERE!/

Probably because the expected message, “See, Harry, you’re not so different than Tom or Severus, so make sure that you don’t end up like them,” never came. The lesson wasn’t that Harry needed to learn from Tom and Snape’s backgrounds so that he could avoid becoming like them and become a better person. It was just that Harry was fortunate enough to not be like them.

Yes, Harry, like Tom, you’re very popular at school, most of the teachers like you, and most people turn a blind eye to how you interact with the students that you don’t like. But that’s okay, your mother wasn’t inbred and cross-eyed, so you don’t have worry about becoming another Tom. Yes, Harry, like you, Snape also came from a troubled home and ran into trouble with a group of students from another House. But that’s okay; it’s all Snape’s fault for being an unpleasant geek, so you don’t have to worry about empathizing with him.

/And, you know, we still don't know what a Horcrux really is or how they are created./

Or why creating them is so terrible, compared to all of the other awful curses and hexes that exist. I’ve read fanfics where the ritual to make a Horcrux is life-threatening to the caster, which is why Tom is the only one who’s made Horcruxes in canon (as far as we know). But that’s just fan speculation. Are Horcruxes like unicorn blood in the sense that they curse the wizard’s life? What exactly does the caster need to do to make a Horcrux, aside from killing someone? Molly Weasley killed Bellatrix, but that murder didn’t create a Horcrux. How exactly is a soul cut into pieces and how exactly does one relocate it to an object? What spell or ritual is needed to do that? We never learn.

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urbanman1984.livejournal.com

It has already been observed that the way the morality in the series is shwon, the good characters and bad characters act in exactly the same way, but whatever is a sign of a bad character's badness is a sign of a good character's goodness.

JKR did say that the Horcrux spell was something that the editoress did not allow and that it made the poor woman look ill. Perhaps JKR had something really outlandish in mind?

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She should release it in one of her many appendices - Pottermore or some other venue.

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jodel-from-aol.livejournal.com

No actually. It wasn't the horcruxes, it was the creation oft the Baby!Mort homonucleus that made the editor look ill. She threw that piece of information out as a smokescreen when she was asked about how one makes a horcrux.

I contend that Rowling hasn't a clue as to how a horcrux is made and refuses to be pinned down on the subject.

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I love the idea, however I must point out that it is hard to rule out Draco being on Felix on the tower. How more lucky could he have been that night, given that it was too late to avoid being assigned his mission in the first place? He managed to maintain the integrity of his soul while having enough success that Severus could advocate for him to Voldemort - heck, Draco managed to bring more active-duty DEs to Hogwarts than anyone before him. He just needs some practice casting Unforgivables and he'd be top-notch DE material. Draco was successful enough that Voldemort let all 3 Malfoys live. Oh, he also disarmed Dumbles and became Master of the Elder Wand - are you sure no luck was involved there?

But even if we accept Draco did not have Felix, all it would mean is that there was no source to buy it that could be trusted not to report that Narcissa, wife of an imprisoned DE, bought a luck enhancing potion (was she planning a jailbreak?)

Specifically regarding Horace, he claims to have taken Felix twice in his lifetime, at 24 and at 57. Unless Severus was a time-traveler I don't think he brewed it then.

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Like condwiramurs and others have said, this *is* a neat little theory you've come up with, even if you're wildly extrapolating from half a sentence of the canon. It's like you have an elephant balancing on a pea, if you know what I mean. But, like you said - it's still FUN. :-)

It would have been nice if Rowling had worked out the mechanics of her potions - magic out equals magic in - and so gave us more reason to suspect that a sacrifice - of magic, of 'luck', of 'life' - was required as input for successfully brewing the abomination known as Felix Felicis.

Have you ever read Diane Duane's "Door into" series of four books? She's best known for her 'Young Wizards" series - must be ten-plus books by now - *immensely* superior to Rowling's work - I know I've mentioned her name here before - but in her 'door into' series she makes it clear that casting spells takes years off one's life. Unless one manages to use a different, higher level of magic.

So I think Duane would endorse your theory. :-)

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mary-j-59.livejournal.com

Well, magic takes years off your life in the "Young Wizards", too! Terri and I are both huge fans; she wanted me to write a comparison between Snape and Ed the shark. I'm not up for it, I'm afraid. But Duane treats Ed a lot better than Rowling does Snape.

BTW, I love your image of an Elephant balancing on a pea! In retrospect, I'm afraid my theories about the books were like that too - though I still stand by my "grand unified theory", which is that Rowling threw in anything and everything from the 19th century English novels she knew and loved, without considering the implications of what she was writing.

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