Deathly Hallows, Chapter 9: A Place to Hide

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Harry and Hermione happen to be together when the attack comes, so when Ron finds them, Hermione Apparates them to London. As usual, the boys are unprepared, but Hermione has packed everything they need: changes of clothes, Harry’s invisibility cloak, reference books, luggage--and whatever else they might need as the story goes on that Rowling didn’t think of right now.

Harry experiences emotion as GERD again as he thinks about the danger Ginny is in, and “fear bubble[s] like acid in his stomach.” Um, Harry, I know your science education ended at age eleven, but surely you’ve picked up from TV commercials for antacids that the stomach does have acid bubbling in it. Maybe you just have indigestion from all that rich food and champagne you ate and drank at the wedding reception.

As they walk down the street, Hermione is sexually harassed by some drunk men. Ron is about to defend her honor when Hermione drags them into an all-night greasy spoon. They are preparing to leave when they are attacked by two DEs, who had followed them into the restaurant and been sitting there for a while. This is a contrived scene because as soon as the DEs are defeated, Ron recognizes one and Harry the other. Harry even admits he should have recognized the blond one, Thorfinn Rowle, from the night Dumbledore died. Clearly, the DEs are doing a better job of educating their recruits on whom to watch for than the Order is. Any commander who’s not a complete dimwit should make sure hir soldiers or police officers know who the major enemies/criminals are and what they look like. Honestly, both sides in this rumble are so incompetent that I can’t help thinking the non-magical government just needs to protect the public, then stand back and let the magicals have at each other until all the dumbest ones are dead. It would greatly enhance the gene pool of the ones who are left.

The Trio tries to decide what to do about their prisoners and settles on Obliviation. They all insist they’ve never done it, despite Hermione’s weeping, wailing, and gnashing of teeth regarding her parents just two days ago. Apparently her memory charm on them was a little too good: Its blowback damaged her memory, too.

Or maybe it was too bad. Maybe Hermione’s telling at least part of the truth when she says she’s never done a memory charm--at least, a successful one. That is, perhaps she tried to mind-rape her parents and change their identities, but she wasn’t successful. Maybe when this high school girl with a fifth-grade science education tried to perform magical brain surgery on her parents, she failed so disastrously they ended up vegetables, and she had to kill them because she couldn’t take care of them.

Think about it: We have only her word they really are in Australia. Remember all my objections to the logistics of changing their identities and shipping them off to a foreign country? All those problems disappear if the Grangers are dead. In chapter 6, it says Hermione’s eyes “were swimming with tears” as she talked about them. This is not a girl who cries easily. The only other time I can think of her crying in the whole series is in book 1 when nobody will be her friend--that is, when she feels all alone in the world.

Hermione has been building up to this for a long time. In first year, she set Snape on fire. In second year, she committed a series of felonies that would have gotten HRH expelled and criminally prosecuted in a sane society. In third year, she knocked Snape unconscious with her friends and cared only for the fact she might get in trouble for attacking a teacher. In fourth year, she kidnapped Rita Skeeter, held her hostage, and blackmailed her. In fifth year, she tricked Umbridge into becoming the prey of the centaurs. She also tricked other students into agreeing to the Dumbledore’s Army contract without knowing what the consequences were for breaking it--and permanently disfigured another girl in revenge when the girl dared to put the well-being of her own mother before that of her schoolmates. In sixth year, she attacked her own boyfriend with birds à la Alfred Hitchcock, and in seventh year, she “jokes” about doing it again (in chapter 19). She also at least attempted to perform forcible brain surgery on her own parents and ship them off to a foreign country.

Look at that series of violent felonies. Try to forget it’s the life story of Hermione Granger, a character you thought you knew, and instead imagine it’s the case history of some anonymous teenager in a news story. Then tell me that murder is not the logical next step in the criminal career of someone with that record.

Back to the story:

Ron complains he can’t get his wand out of his jeans because the pair Hermione packed is his old pair, which is too tight. God forbid he should do his own packing--or laundry--or cooking--or any of those “girl jobs.”

This is a very strange restaurant: Apparently the waitress also does the cooking, since there’s no reference to any other employee being present.

The Trio discusses where to run to, and Hermione suggests the DEs may have found them because Harry still has the underage Trace on him. Ron insists that cannot be the case because Wizarding law doesn’t allow it to be put on adults. Um, Ron, I hate to tell you this, but the Ministry is in the control of violent terrorists who want to kill large numbers of people and take over the world. I don’t think they’re going to shrink from breaking any law, particularly if it will help them find their number one quarry, Harry Potter.

HRH (Hey, JKR’s pretending Harry’s royalty, so why not go with it?) decide to go to Grimmauld Place, even though Snape knows where it is and can get in there. Harry displays textbook Gryffindor bravado by boasting that he’d love to fight Snape. I can just imagine Snape sneering and replying, “Yes, Potter, because that worked out so well for you last time.”

They leave the restaurant after waking everybody up, thus leaving the defenseless waitress to the mercies of the muggle-hating Death Eaters. Remind me again why these are the good guys?

They enter 12GP and we have a brief recap of the furnishings in the foyer. Surely I’m not the only one who finds those stuffed elf heads really creepy and grotesque. Proving their fitness for battle with ruthless terrorists, the Trio is traumatized by Moody’s ludicrous “protections” on the house: a Tongue-Tying Curse and an apparition of Dumbledore that appears to be a giant dust bunny disguised as a decomposing corpse.

OH! COME! ON! Anybody’s who ever been to a local charity’s “haunted house” has seen scarier stuff than that! I started reading horror comic books and watching horror movies and TV shows when I was five. I was never scared by those stories because I knew they weren’t real. In my expert opinion, if JKR is writing horror, as she’s sometimes been accused of, she’s doing a damned poor job of it.

Those “protections” are idiotic for other reasons: (1) As others have pointed out, Snape can do silent magic, so tying his tongue would have no effect on his ability to cast spells. (2) If he’s as ruthless and evil as the Order thinks he is, he’s not going to be put off by a dust bunny representation of the man he killed. If anything, he’s going to laugh at the absurdity of it. Hell, I’m not a ruthless murderer, and I laughed at it.

For somebody who was supposed to be so formidable, experienced, and hung up on “constant vigilance” (a euphemism for clinical paranoia), Moody was a complete incompetent when it came to actually protecting places that needed to be protected. No wonder he resorted to torture to get captured DEs to talk. He was too ineffective to get information any other way.

As if they weren’t traumatized enough, the Three Stooges (seriously, this scene seems to have been ripped off from an old Three Stooges or Abbott and Costello short) Golden Trio then has to put up with the painting of Walburga Black shrieking racist invective at them. Harry shuts her up, but I have more to say on that subject.

I know it’s commonly accepted that Walburga was mentally ill, maybe even insane, and that’s why she acted so abominably. I don’t buy it. There is no way of being certain of her mental state without observing her behavior when she wasn’t either at home or in another place she considered safe for spewing her filth. That is, if she could behave like a perfect lady when she wanted to--say, while shopping in Diagon Alley, or at Ministry social functions--then her behavior was under her conscious control. She was therefore not mentally ill, just a vicious racist who got off on terrorizing everybody with her violent tantrums. Only if she was unable to control her behavior and conform to appropriate social norms would she qualify as mentally ill and/or incompetent. That’s why, in the various editions of the DSM, the diagnostic criteria always specify that, to qualify for a diagnosis, the aberrant behavior has to be present for an extended period and in a variety of contexts.

Harry has another Voldie-vision, and Hermione starts shrieking à la Walburga, that he has to close the mental connection, or Voldemort can plant false images in his mind. Don’t worry, Hermione. Voldemort’s much too dumb to do anything that sensible.

Harry retreats to the bathroom and lets go with the vision, seeing Draco being forced to torture Rowle with Crucio. To his credit, Harry seems to feel sorry for Draco, although not for Rowle.

However, this “terrifying” vision is undermined by more logical contradictions. Voldy snarls that Rowle called Voldy back to report he’d let Harry get away--but Hermione Obliviated Rowle, so how is that possible? And would Rowle really be so stupid as to call his Master back just to report a failure to him, knowing what kind of punishment he’d receive for his failure? I’m so tired of this nonsense, I feel like Crucioing somebody at this point.

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Magic.

Eleven year old children don't understand Einstein's General Theory of Relativity to be able to defeat gravity and levitate a feather. In fact, they're demonstrating that they know *more* than Einstein to be able to achieve such a feat.

Hermione was able to Confund McLaggin (whatever his name was) without any precise, detailed knowledge about the workings of the human mind. She just waved her wand and muttered a few latin words. That's how magic works in Rowling's universe. No science education necessary.

That's why that point just doesn't make sense. We're talking magic. Trying to chain magical feats to muggle science isn't appropriate. An eleven year old can turn animals into objects? Conjure water out of nothingness? Defeat every known 'law' of physics? Without having a clue about muggle science? Okay, that's how Rowling's world works.

Ditto mind-wiping one's parents.

So Hermione's abilities there are covered both ends. She's been demonstrated as operating way beyond those 'fifth-grade' limits. Plus the limits don't apply, anyway, in Rowling's 'wave a wand when you need something to happen' universe. There's nothing in Rowling's books saying that what Hermione did isn't possible. And heaps showing us that Hermione routinely performs feats way beyond the capacity of her peers.

Add to that the sincere emotional angst she attaches to the tale of what she did to her parents and the whole idea of her 'murdering' them is absurd. Or, with regard to your point, slipping up and killing them. I'm still unclear what oneandthetruth was trying to say, she seemed to switch from 'accident' to 'deliberate murder' in mid-stream.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Hermione was able to Confund McLaggin (whatever his name was) without any precise, detailed knowledge about the workings of the human mind. She just waved her wand and muttered a few latin words. That's how magic works in Rowling's universe. No science education necessary.

No, she didn't need any science education. It didn't go entirely smoothly, though. When Hermione Confunded McLaggen, the effects lasted considerably longer than Hermione presumably intended. The tryouts were in the morning, then the Trio goes to visit Hagrid, and they stay until dusk:


...with the result that by the time Hagrid waved them off the premises at dusk, he looked quite cheerful.

"I'm starving," said Harry, once the door had closed behind them and they were hurrying through the dark and deserted grounds...

As they came into the castle they spotted Cormac McLaggen entering the Great Hall. It took him two attempts to get through the doors; he ricocheted off the frame on the first attempt. Ron merely guffawed gloatingly and strode off into the Hall after him, but Harry caught Hermione's arm and held her back.

"What?" said Hermione defensively.

"If you ask me," said Harry quietly, "McLaggen looks like he was Confunded this morning.


So, roughly 12 hours after Hermione confunded McLaggen to miss a single save, he's still failing to walk through doors on the first try. Granted that Hermione's goal was in fact to make him physically inept; that isn't my point. My point is merely that she only needed him to be clumsy for a minute or two, and she made him clumsy for at least 12 hours.

Knowing you, you'll probably say that this shows how powerful a witch Hermione is, and that may be true. But a scalpel needs to be wielded with precision, not force.

Did Hermione simply not care about making McLaggen clumsy for a long period of time? Maybe, but that'd not only be gratuitously inconsiderate, but stupid. Hermione's "help" is negated if people notice it, and Harry, not the most observant guy, noticed that McLaggen looked Confunded.

The alternative is that Hermione didn't have very precise control over her spell: she tried to do something small, and had a significantly bigger effect than she intended.

I didn't believe that the mind-wiping was very likely before considering her Confunding of McLaggen. I still don't consider it likely, but it does make me think that an accidental mind-wiping is a little more plausible.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

It didn't go entirely smoothly, though. When Hermione Confunded McLaggen, the effects lasted considerably longer than Hermione presumably intended.

Unfortunately there's quite a few variables there which prevent your point from being anything close to conclusive. Your word 'presumably' for starters. And then any canon knowledge at how the Confundus works, whether its effects *can*, indeed, be limited in accordance with your assumption. I wish I had a memory like some of the folks here so I could whistle up other canon cases of the Confundus and compare them to your's/Hermione's.

Also, another variable:

Did Hermione simply not care about making McLaggen clumsy for a long period of time? Maybe, but that'd not only be gratuitously inconsiderate, but stupid.

But that's exactly what Hermione was in book 6! Stupid. I hated it, but that's what Rowling decided to write; a smart girl who went ga-ga and lost her smarts in her puerile little dance with Won Won.

Finally, there's a big difference, of course, between a spur-of-the-moment decision to curse a fellow student to gain the favour of the BOY SHE HAS HOTS FOR (using the emphasis that Rowling gave the silly juvenile romantic antics in HBP) versus a calm and deliberate spell cast on her beloved parents following months of planning.

I still don't consider it likely, but it does make me think that an accidental mind-wiping is a little more plausible.

Yes, it's a neat idea, I appreciate the logic, and I agree with you, but you have to stress the 'little' in 'a little more plausible'. :-) Because of all those variables and differences between the two scenarios.

Whereas I think oneandthetruth's accusation of a mistake that renders her parents VEGETABLES which Hermione then treats by MURDERING them is one HUGE leap over a cliff in comparison.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

There's stupid "let me cheat for a guy I like in a game I don't care about," and there's stupid "let me cheat and go out of my way to make it so blatant that it's a miracle I don't get caught and that the guy I like doesn't realize it was all me, not him."

The former, we know that Hermione does. That's explicit in the text. Do we see her deliberately do anything else like the latter, though, even in HBP?

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I think you could argue that she over-does things when she's passionate at the spur-of-the-moment. Walloping Draco in PoA might count on that score. The killer canary attack on Won Won later on in HBP. All things done in haste.

Brainwashing her parents wasn't done in haste. As she explains, the decision to travel with Harry "was decided months ago". She had "been packing for days". She knew "perfectly well what might happen" if she went with Harry.

That's all detailed, long/medium term planning. Quite unlike her Won Won inspired stupidity.

[malic-ba.livejournal.com]

I don't really want to get in the middle of this :) but was just wondering if there is anything in the text about how long Hermione planned the identity transplants? I could easily see this going wrong no matter how brilliant she is, but if she did have months to research it improves the chances of success a lot.

It's certainly in character for her to spend lots of time researching, and she might be extra motivated to do so if hexing McLaggen didn't work out as intended. Dumbledore might have cleared the Restricted Section of books on Horcruxes but not mind wipes ...

I still think it's a horrible thing to do to someone but I can see adolescent logic working that way.

[oryx_leucoryx]

The earliest she could have started was after the night Albus told Harry about Horcruxes, if she decided the whole idea was that Albus intended for Harry to go after them soon, but I find it unlikely she expected the plan was for Harry to do so without Albus. The long timeline is from late April, the short one is from mid-June (just days before Hermione left Hogwarts). Unless anyone thinks she was planning to memory-charm her parents even if Albus had continued leading the Order and the trio were to attend school in 7th year?

[sunnyskywalker]

I'm also still not seeing why she would have to go to all that trouble, either. As I've said before, if she was absolutely certain that her parents weren't safe anywhere in Great Britain and they wouldn't leave if she stayed, what was wrong trying a lie first? "The Order of the Phoenix is moving you like they're moving Harry's aunt and uncle. Here's your passports. They're moving me somewhere different and I can't tell you where, because it's safer the more we split up - it would be terrible if You-Know-Who thought you knew where I was and hurt you trying to find me! They'll be able to pass on a letter every couple of months, though, so I'll be able to tell you I'm alright." If she's such a terrible liar that they wouldn't buy it, then she still doesn't have to suppress or erase all their memories and give them new ones - she can Confund them into believing she sounds convincing, a much smaller and less risky alteration, though still a violation of their free will.

The only way I can see it making sense in-universe (as opposed to "anything I don't like is Rowling's mistake and doesn't count, but everything I like is the "real" books and so counts, which is all too easy to fall into in this mess of a book) is that Hermione wanted to use the bigger, total mindwipe spell for some reason. And I can't think of a reason that reflects well on her.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

What if Hermione had only meant to erase everything she'd ever told them about Harry, or something, and accidentally wiped out a lot more? In that case, Confunding them to believe they were other people might have been to patch/cover up the problem. Her eventual plan might have been to get help restoring them to normal, without anyone's having to know the damage she did by accident.

This assumes that Hermione told her parents something worth hiding, of course. Still, Hermione wouldn't remember everything she'd ever told them, so it might have been done casually, just as a precaution... (shrug)

[oryx_leucoryx]

We don't really know about examples of using memory charms to erase information the victim learned in the past. The Muggles that Arthur and his friends obliviate are made to forget recent events. Similarly, Crouch made Bertha forget what she learned during her visit to his home, on the day that happened. So it is easy to imagine as erasing everything one acquired over the last few minutes, or even hours. We haven't seen the wizards that Lockhart obliviated so we don't know how functional they were and how much they forgot. Marietta supposedly was memory-charmed by Kingsley to forget all her participation in the DA, though Terri made the argument that her behavior is more consistent with being Imperiurized to say what Kingsley wanted her to say. Maybe what Hermione claims to have done can't be done, at least not safely.

[sunnyskywalker]

Re-posted for clarity.

Okay, here's another possibility: she did lie. To Harry.

When she said she'd never done a memory charm in the diner, she was stressed and blurted out the truth, whereas back in the Burrow she was calm and had had time to prepare a lie involving giving her parents new memories and sending them to Australia, in order to convince Harry that she was super-serious about going on the Horcrux quest with him.

In actuality, maybe she did lie to her parents so they'd go somewhere safe, or told them the truth and they agreed to go ("I'll mainly be doing research behind the scenes - " true, from a certain point of view " - and I just don't want anything happening to you because these Death Eaters have weapons you can't defend against!" "It sounds serious, dear. We have been planning a trip to Bali anyway..."), or she set them up with Fidelius and/or various other protections, or they just moved across town and she realized wizards haven't figured out how to use telephone books or the internet to find people's addresses. Just slap an anti-owl-homing charm on the new place and they're set.

Though I'm not sure exactly what telling that lie to Harry would accomplish that telling him "I told my parents what's up and they agreed to leave the country until it's safe" wouldn't. Any ideas?

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

Well, Harry *had* had Voldemort in his head, a lot. If Hermione pointed out to him that they're safe because wizards don't know how to use phonebooks, and Voldemort found out about that....

[sunnyskywalker]

Hm, maybe this could work. There's nothing to be done about Harry leaking Horcrux-info to Voldemort - far too late, and no alternatives really - but she can at least minimize the possibility that he'll go looking for her parents. So make sure to tell Harry in no uncertain terms that her parents no longer know anything at all about her or Harry or magic, and that they're in Australia (and then of course make sure they're actually anywhere in the world but Australia).

It works a lot better than actually doing what she claims she did.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

That's a neat theory - lying to Harry to stop the leakage of information to Voldemort over the mental link - except that, as of the start of DH, that link hadn't operated for more than a year. All through HBP Riddle kept clear of it.

It wasn't until after the wedding, I think, that Rowling conjured the Dark Lord Mental Broadcast Network so she could have the world's most powerful wizard suddenly, without knowing his own mind, broadcast his *every move* to his *arch enemy* and ohmygodit'ssoSTUPIDIjustcan't ...

Ahem. Sorry. The Dark Lord Mental Broadcast Network (DLMBN), for me, is one of the most asinine chunks of Rowling's writing. And that's saying something.

Hermione gets rather frantic once she realises that the DLMBN is up and running. This rather supports the position that she *wasn't* lying. She told Harry where her parents were. A week later she finds out that the Boy Who Never Really Tried Occlumency Seriously was again totally vulnerable to the dark lord. Who could snatch her parents' location at any time. OMG.

Hermione wouldn't have panicked as much if she'd known about the link being active. In fact that's clearly news to her:

Harry felt badgered, confused, and Hermione did not help as she said in a frightened voice, “Your scar, again? But what’s going on? I thought that connection had closed!”

So why lie about her parents if she'd thought the link 'had closed'?

[oryx_leucoryx]

No, the Dark Lord Broadcasting Network went into action immediately after the 7P battle, and within Hermione's presence. (That was when Harry saw Voldemort torturing someone, who later turned out to have been Ollivander.)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

My keyword-searching skills clearly need honing. :-)

But thanks. Okay, the 'Hermione lied about her parents' is a cool theory then. And it gets Hermione off the (ridiculous) hook of being a cold-blooded mummy and daddy killer, yay!

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

So why lie about her parents if she'd thought the link 'had closed'?

Because it costs nothing to take the precaution?

And, as Oryx pointed out, Hermione tells Harry about her parents *after* Harry tells her about a vision he had from Voldemort.

I would've expected you to be all in favor of this interpretation, to be honest. No questionable behavior this way.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Yes, I stand corrected. Okay, I see the coolness/cleverness in the "Hermione lied" theory now. Thanks. :-)

And you're right, it gets Hermione off the hook, no more crazy accusations of her being a cold blooded mummy and daddy murderer! :-)

I like how Hermione is described as 'downright terrified" ... it would be horrible to know that one is supporting, living with, making plans alongside, a boy who's an open book to their deadly foe. If Rowling had been interested in looking anywhere but the direct path that she wanted to write - and was forcing her characters to take - I imagine someone bright like Hermione would have tried to 'use' the link, or at least accommodate it. Don't let Harry in on the plans, etc.

But there's none of that in DH, is there? Hey, Harry, we're at the Forest of Dean, my parents were once here, that's why I know (Riddle, are you watching, that's FOREST OF DEAN, okay then).

Luckily Rowling *knew* that Voldemort, somehow, for some reason, had lost ALL of the mental magic he'd displayed in earlier years and could no longer read Harry's mind but instead was letting his arch enemy into his and have I mentioned how much I detest Rowling's Dark Lord Mental Broacast Network? :-)

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

I am genuinely discouraged by how much you're influenced by the conclusion, rather than by the reasoning. Please tell me you're doing it deliberately.

[oryx_leucoryx]

This bit is so ridiculous: The only time Hermione mentions where they are in 4 months is when Rowling decided it was time for Severus to deliver the sword, which was when everything was ready for Ron's return. Which supports Jodel's interpretation, that Rowling arranged for Ron's leaving simply because she had nothing for him to do at Godric's Hollow, not even as a joke or a distraction (like she did at the Ministry, where Harry and Hermione carry out the mission while Ron has to attempt to fix Yaxley's office - though he does help with their escape).

[sunnyskywalker]

Of course they'd just Apparated to the Forest of Dean in a panic, right? So she was not calm and collected when she said that, ie probably not considering the Dark Lord Broadcast Network at the moment. It may have taken her some time to remember that oops, shouldn't have said that (shades of Hagrid... there's a comparison I never thought I'd make). But they moved on fairly quickly iirc, and I don't recall her blurting out their coordinates again.

So that would work with the theory that when she has time to plan, she takes the DLBN into account and lies to Harry accordingly, but when she's under stress, like in the diner or after fleeing Grimmauld Place, she blurts the truth without thinking.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Yes yes yes to everything in this comment and subsequent comments about the reopening of Harry's mental link with Voldemort. This theory has been my own head canon for a while now.

I'll add that Harry and Ron may not have been the only people to whom Hermione fed this story. This may be the story that she told anyone in the Order who inquired about her parents, and thus the story that would be given to Voldemort if anyone turned out to be a spy or was kidnapped and interrogated.

[lynn-waterfall.livejournal.com]

...Maybe that's what went wrong: Hermione thought she was just erasing bits here and there, but she accidentally made them forget everything back to the first time they heard of Harry.

I'm not saying that this is especially likely, though. And Hermione *is* someone who would have read about what Obliviate does.

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

----Unless anyone thinks she was planning to memory-charm her parents even if Albus had continued leading the Order and the trio were to attend school in 7th year?

I am guessing that Hermione would have been concerned about her parents' safety long before she heard anything about horcruxes or before Albus died, simply because her being both a Muggle-born and Harry Potter's best friend would have made her family a target for the Death Eaters.

As far as I can tell, Hermione was quite vague about how she spent her Christmas holidays in her sixth year, so I think it's possible that time working on arrangements for her parents.

I personally believe that Hermione was lying about altering her parents memories, like sunnyskywalker suggested (http://deathtocapslock.livejournal.com/241459.html?thread=8158771#t8158771)

[danajsparks.livejournal.com]

Sorry, I think it's possible she spent that time working on arrangements for her parents. :p