Deathly Hallows, Chapter 23: Malfoy Manor

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Beethoven was right: It’s vastly harder to rewrite something you’ve finished than to write something entirely new. Especially when you have to revert to HTML because that’s the only way to enter tables on LJ. Aaaaagggggghhhhh!!!!!

I apologize if they look weird, but I followed the instructions, and that's how they turned out. However, the instructions were posted almost eight years ago, and LJ has changed its programming some since then. It's also possible I couldn't transfer my tables because I wrote this on iPages, not Word.

Are everybody’s barf bags at the ready? All right, then, let’s go!

Hermione hits Harry in the face with a spell that makes his face swell up as if he’s just been stung by an entire hive of bees. The Trio lies about their names, and Harry’s pseudonym is particularly dumb: Vernon Dudley. I know I’m probably being entirely too logical, but if I were in charge of the DEs and their allies, I would give them a list naming not just the people I was looking for, but also their quarries’ friends and relatives. If that had been done, the Snatchers would immediately have said, “Vernon Dudley? Oh, yeah, Harry Potter grew up with an uncle named Vernon and a cousin named Dudley. Given how dumb Potter is, this is probably him using a phony name.” Of course, calling Harry “dumb” would prick his Gryffindor pride, making him indignant, and he would reveal himself by that alone.

Fenrir Greyback says Voldemort’s name has been tabooed because his enemies weren’t showing him the proper respect, so he wanted to be able to punish them when they acted rude. At last the business of referring to him by pseudonyms makes sense. In the previous books, it just makes everybody look too wimpy to call him by his alias. Come to think of it, they still look wimpy in the books when he was incorporeal.

I wonder whether Voldemort is the only name that’s tabooed? What about Tom Riddle? What if somebody calls him a satiric corruption of his name, like Moldyshorts, Oldywart, or even Noisyfart? Those epithets are much more disrespectful than calling him by his assumed name. And if he were really as mean and nasty as he’s cracked up to be, he’d also taboo “He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named” and “You-Know-Who.” Think of the fun! He and the DEs could wipe out nearly all their enemies at once, just by waiting for them to slip up and use one of his silly pseudonyms.

Despite the efforts of Hermione the Genius, the Trio are found out and taken to Malfoy Manor, along with Dean Thomas and Griphook the goblin. When they arrive, Batty Bellatrix is in charge, and Draco is dragged over to see if he can ID any of the prisoners. He very reluctantly IDs Hermione, which means two of the others must be Ron and Harry. Fenrir Greyback makes some leering remarks about Hermione, but there’s no tension because we know JKR won’t allow her self-insert to be sexually abused.

However, she will allow her to be tortured. With true Gryffindor gallantry, Ron offers himself instead, but Bella wants to spill some muddy blood with her pretty silver knife. Technically, only the handle could be silver; the blade would have to be stainless steel, or a similarly hard metal. Silver is too soft to make an effective knife blade.

Ron, Harry, and the other prisoners are stashed in the cellar, where they find Luna and Ollivander already there. Meanwhile, Bella starts in on Hermione, demanding to know where she got the Sword of Gryffindor, which is supposed to be in Bella’s vault at Gringotts.

I didn’t start out creating tables for this chapter, but they worked so well in my sporking of chapter 35, part 1, that I made some for this chapter, also. First, take a look at how Rowling portrays the torture of Xeno Lovegood in chapter 21. Everyone’s actions and reactions are detailed, and separate assaults on a particular page are designated by number in the Descriptions and Reactions columns. Page numbers refer to the American Scholastic hardcover edition of DH.

Page Number	Times Xeno-Related Action Mentioned	Description of Words and Actions	Xeno's Reactions	Trio's Reactions
420	4	1) “There was a bang and a scream of pain from Xenophilius.” 2) “another bang, another squeal” 3) bang 4) bang	1) scream 2) squeal 3) none 4) none	none mentioned
421	3	1) “...there was a volley of bangs interspersed with squeals of agony from Xenophilius” 2) Xeno sobs while speaking 3) “Xenophilius gave a wail of fear and despair.”	1) repeated squeals of agony 2) sobbing 3) wailing	none mentioned
422	5	1) Xeno tries to climb the stairs. 2) Xeno draws nearer. 3) He’s feet away. 4) He tries to shift more debris. 5) His face appears before them.	none mentioned	1) Harry says they have to leave. The Hs climb over debris. 2) Hermione frees Ron. 3) She tells Ron and Harry what to do. 4) She continues to give orders. 5) She Obliviates Xeno and makes the floor collapse under them all.

Notice the way Xeno reacts to being tortured: He is described as screaming after the first attack. Then he squeals repeatedly, although the second mention of him squealing is dismissed with the phrase, “repeated squeals of agony.” Note that he is described as screaming only once; the rest of the time he squeals, which makes him sound more like a nonhuman animal (a traitorous pig, maybe?) than a human. Next he sobs, and finally, he gives “a wail of fear and despair,” maybe because he’s realized, as terri_testing has asserted, that he’s not going to get out of this encounter alive.

Rowling minimizes the terrible suffering of this old man in two ways: First, she compresses several vicious attacks into one short phrase: “...there was a volley of bangs interspersed with squeals.” The dictionary in my computer defines volley as “a number of bullets, arrows, or other projectiles discharged at one time.” The thesaurus lists the following as some of volley’s synonyms: barrage, bombardment, fusillade, hail, shower, deluge, torrent. In other words, Xeno was cursed at least several times in quick succession, and possibly dozens of times. Hundreds of times is unlikely, given the short time span, but it’s not out of the question. Anyone who doubts these assertions should consider how quickly it’s possible to get soaked in a shower, deluge, or torrent of water. Or watch the title characters’ death scene from the 1967 movie Bonnie and Clyde. That’s what a barrage, bombardment, fusillade, or hail of bullets looks like. Imagine Xeno being cursed even half that many times, half that quickly. It looks a whole lot worse than Rowling makes it sound, doesn’t it?

Notice also that, although he is referred to as being hurt seven times, he only reacts vocally five times. This makes it appear he was not seriously injured by two of those curses. It’s also possible he was briefly knocked unconscious from the assaults and then revived. This would mean he was hurt worse in those instances than in the others, but since the scene is told from the point of view of the Hs, who didn’t see what was happening (and didn’t care, either), we can’t be sure what occurred.

That’s disgusting enough, but it actually gets worse. Now look at the elaborate, loving detail Rowling lavishes on Hermione’s sufferings in this chapter.

Page Number	Times Hermione-Related Action Mentioned	Description of Words and Actions	Hermione's Reactions	Ron and Harry's Reactions
463	1	“...there was a terrible, drawn-out scream from directly above them.”	“terrible, drawn-out scream”	Ron bellows, “HERMIONE!” and starts to “writhe and struggle against the ropes” that tie him and Harry together.
464	5	3) “Hermione screamed again....”	scream	1) Ron yells, “HERMIONE!” three times in reaction to scream on 463 2) Harry tells Ron to be quiet so they can plan. 3) Ron bellows her name twice more when she screams again. 4) Bellatrix questions her again about the sword.
465	4	1) Hermione says, “we found it--we found it--PLEASE!” and screams again. 2) Bella questions H further; “another terrible scream.” 3) Bella threatens to “run H through” with her knife.	1) scream 2) “another terrible scream” 3) none listed	1) Ron struggles some more. 2) Ron bellows her name again. 3) none listed
466	7	1) H screams again. 2) Bella questions her more and Cruciates her. 3) H screams.	1) screams again 2) “Hermione’s screams echoed off the walls upstairs.” 3) “Hermione was screaming worse than ever.”	1) “The sound went through Harry like physical pain.” He runs around the cellar looking for a way out. 2) Ron half sobs and pounds the walls with his fists. Harry “in utter desperation” gropes in his neck pouch for the two-way mirror. 3) Ron bellows her name twice more.
467	1	Bella questions H again.	H sobs as she says the sword is fake.	Harry tells Griphook to lie and say the sword’s fake.
468	1	H screams as she’s “being tortured again.”	“An awful scream drowned out Harry’s words: Hermione was being tortured again.”	They continue to work with Dobby to escape.
469	1	H screams again.	“Hermione screamed again.”	Harry forces himself to come out of his Voldie-vision at her scream.
471	2	1) H screams again. 2) She’s on the floor.	1) “Hermione gave a dreadful scream...” 2) H is on the floor at Bella’s feet. “She was barely stirring.”	1) none mentioned 2) They watch and wait for a good time to attack.
472	4	1) Bella tells Fenrir to take “the Mudblood.” 2) Harry and Ron attack. 3) Bella tells them to stop or H dies. 4) Harry and Ron pause.	1) none mentioned 2) none mentioned 3) none mentioned 4) Hermione seems to be unconscious.	1) Ron bellows, “NOOOOOOOOOOOO!” 2) H and R attack. 3) They pause.

So the multiple episodes of Xeno’s torturing are blown off with just a few brief mentions that contain no detailed descriptions of how he was injured or how badly, let alone what his screams sounded like. The DEs hurt him at least as many times as Bella hurts Hermione, and over a shorter period, but his torture is virtually shrugged off by the narrator, being dismissed by only a few brief mentions over just one-and-a-half pages. By contrast, Bella’s torture of Hermione goes on for six pages, with each assault and each scream described in detail, and is briefly described on three other pages. There are nine attacks altogether, judging by the number of screams.

Look also at how Rowling structures these scenes. First, take Hermione and Bella: (1) Bella yells her questions. (2) She cuts Hermione. (3) Hermione screams. In other words, there is a loud sound, then silence, then another loud sound. Like rests in music, those silent pauses between the vocalizations put the focus on the sounds that come after the pauses, i.e., Hermione’s screams. Rowling increases the emphasis in two other ways: (1) Her histrionic descriptions of the screams, e. g., “Hermione’s screams echoed off the walls upstairs.”(2) Her equally histrionic descriptions of Harry and Ron's reactions, e.g., Ron repeatedly bellowing "HERMIONE!", and “The sound went through Harry like physical pain.” There are also several descriptions of their frantic efforts to escape the cellar and assist Hermione.

Contrast that with chapter 21, when the DEs attacked Xeno Lovegood: (1) A DE yells a question. (2) There is a loud “bang” as a curse is fired. (3) Xeno shrieks. By having a yelled question, then a “bang,” then a scream, the loud noises all run together, which implies they’re all equally important. This takes the focus off the torture of an innocent man and gives equal weight to his torturers’ interrogation of him--which is about the Trio. So even when a harmless old man is being tortured, what really matters is not the victim’s suffering, but the danger the interrogation poses to Rowling’s self-inserts (and sidekick)--two of whom are torturers themselves! (Remember Harry’s tormenting of Filch. Come to think of it, Rowling seems to have a thing for defenseless old men being tortured. I wonder if that’s another expression of her hostility towards her father?)

This was also not the first time Lovegood was attacked by the DEs. It was the third time in as many weeks. It isn’t stated outright that he was harmed on the other two occasions, but only a fool would believe the DEs didn’t torture him when he disappointed them on their previous visits. In addition, Xeno is an old man, not a healthy teenager. That alone makes it worse to torture him than Hermione.

Rowling’s own indifference to a minor character’s completely gratuitous pain is made explicit by the behavior of her “heroic” Hs: They have no reaction at all to any of the times Xeno is attacked, despite their not only being able to clearly hear his shrieks of agony, but also being close enough to render assistance to him. They don’t even talk about helping him. They just stand there listening, like Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel (the “village idiot” character on The Simpsons) trying to make conversation with Stephen Hawking at a cocktail party. They couldn’t care less about saving, protecting, or even helping this pathetic old man who is being tortured right under their noses! (Just like Dumbledore’s attitude towards the suffering baby in “King’s Cross,” come to think of it. There’s an excellent reason for that, as we’ll see in part 2 of that chapter.) They don’t wake up and start responding to the danger of the situation until they hear Xeno leading the DEs up the stairs to get them. In other words, it isn’t until their own asses are on the line that they bestir themselves to action--and then they only exert enough effort to save themselves, not Xeno.

Now, I expect Harry and Ron to react far more strongly to the torture of their friend than to that of someone they don’t know, and whom they regard as having betrayed them. That’s only natural. What is not natural is for any of the Trio to have no reaction at all to someone screaming in agony just a few yards/meters away. For them to feel nothing--no shock, no horror, no revulsion, no desire to help--is at best catatonic, and at worst psychopathic. These characters are not just monumentally selfish; they also seem to be lacking the most basic of human instincts for the care and protection of members of their own species. They are, well, freaks.

They are also gutless. What was it Harry told himself while trying to work up the nerve to jump into the frozen pool? Oh, yeah: “Their daring, nerve, and chivalry set Gryffindors apart.” And what was it James boasted about Gryffindor on that first train ride to Hogwarts? “Gryffindor, where dwell the brave of heart.”

Coulda fooled me.

Returning to Bella’s interrogation of Hermione, I know I’m supposed to be all high-minded and aver, “Torture is always wrong,” but I just can’t get worked up in this case. I also know I’m supposed to see this as an innocent, noble young girl being horribly tormented by a sadistic fiend, but after cataloguing Hermione’s own crimes earlier, I see this as one violent, ruthless criminal abusing another. It reminds me of a book by Kathy Reichs called Deadly Decisions, about a conflict between biker gangs in Canada. The attitude of most of the respectable citizens in the story was, “So what? They’re cleaning up the country by killing each other.” That’s how I feel about Bella torturing Hermione. In fact, when I read this chapter, I thought, “IT’S KARMA, BABY! I’M JUST SORRY YOUR ROTTEN LITTLE FRIENDS DIDN’T GET THEIRS, TOO!”

Back to the story:

I love the way Ron and Hermione compete as loudmouths, with her screaming loudly enough for the sound to echo off the walls, and him bellowing her name each time she screams. I’m really surprised nobody bellowed back, “SHUT THE FUCK UP, RON! YOU’RE DEAFENING US!”

While Ron is uselessly screaming, Luna is making herself useful by using a rusty nail to cut through the ropes binding the prisoners. Ron stops yelling long enough to bring out his Deluminator, which has some lights from their tent stored in it. Harry gets out his magic mirror and, seeing the blue eye in it again, tells where they are and demands help.

Draco is ordered to bring Griphook upstairs to look at the sword and authenticate it. Little does Draco know that Harry has persuaded the goblin to proclaim sword a fake even if it’s not.

Dobby suddenly appears and Apparates Luna, Dean, and Ollivander to Shell Cottage. I thought one had to be familiar with one’s destination to Apparate there, and Dobby’s never been to Bill’s house. Either Rowling’s screwed up again, or this is another difference between elves and humans regarding the rules of Apparition.

Lucius hears the crack of Apparition and orders Pettigrew to investigate what’s going on in the cellar. Ron and Harry grab Peter, and Ron takes his wand. Peter’s first impulse is to strangle Harry with his awesome silver hand, his master’s wishes be damned, but Harry reminds Pettigrew he owes Harry a life debt for saving him back in PoA. Just as if this were a 1950s B-horror movie, the hand gets angry at Peter’s merciful act and turns on him, strangling him instead. All those fan theories about how the hand would be used against Remus, and that were much cooler than anything in the actual book, bite the dust along with Peter.

Although Ron and Harry try to save Pettigrew, they are unsuccessful. They drop his body and head upstairs to rescue Hermione. They see her collapsed on the floor at Bella’s feet, while Griphook examines the sword. He conveniently declares it a fake and gets slashed in the face and kicked by Bella for his trouble. She then calls Voldemort and offers Hermione to Fenrir.

Ron completely blows the element of surprise--stupid Gryffindor! he could use some Slytherin subtlety--by screaming, “NOOOOOOOOOOOO!” and charging into the room, wand a-blazing. Bella loses her wand, which Harry grabs, but she gains Hermione and holds a knife to her throat, which she uses to force Ron and Harry to surrender.

Dobby exhibits both Gryffindor foolhardiness and Slytherin dramatics by making the crystal chandelier drop onto Bella, Hermione, and Griphook. Bella drops Hermione and leaps to the side, but the light fixture lands on the girl and the goblin.

As Ron rescues his girlfriend, Harry grabs the three wands Draco’s holding and Stupefies Greyback. Narcissa rescues Draco, who has cuts all over his face from the flying, broken crystals, and Bella screams at Dobby, calling him a traitor. Dobby Apparates out with the Trio, just as Bella throws her knife at him. They land at Shell Cottage, just in time for Dobby to die in front of Harry from Bella’s knife.

While all this was going on, Harry’s Voldie-vision allowed him to tune into the Dull Lord tracking down, questioning, and killing Gregorovitch. Although Harry manfully fought against the mental contact, he conveniently received just enough information to move the story forward.

Whew! That chapter was a long one--29 pages of histrionics and screaming. On the plus side, we are now fewer than 300 pages from the end of the book. Hang on, people! We can make it!

Happy New Year, everyone!

Comments

[aikaterini.livejournal.com]

/I were in charge of the DEs and their allies, I would give them a list naming not just the people I was looking for, but also their quarries’ friends and relatives/

And go after those friends and relatives and hold them hostage. Nothing happens to the Dursleys or the Weasleys. After Dudley says goodbye to Harry and heads off with his parents to protective custody, the Dursleys vanish from the book and are never mentioned again. Despite Harry breaking up with Ginny in order to protect her, the Weasleys are never threatened.

/Bella wants to spill some muddy blood with her pretty silver knife./

But not her wand. For some reason, Bella insists on using a knife for most of this chapter instead of a wand. Why a pureblood fanatic like her would ‘behave like a Muggle’ by favoring a Muggle weapon over her own wand, I don’t know. Is it the same reason why James somehow didn’t have his wand on him in this book either?

/after cataloguing Hermione’s own crimes earlier, I see this as one violent, ruthless criminal abusing another./

Torture is always wrong, so I don’t approve of what Bellatrix is doing. I will, however, point out that Hermione’s mutilation and scarring of Marietta is never condemned nor is Harry’s use of the Cruciatus Curse. In fact, Amycus Carrow is not even described as if he is being tortured, like Xenophilius Lovegood was. All that happens is that there’s a “bang” and he goes flying and crumbles in a heap. There are even less pages and paragraphs describing what happened to him than there are of Xenophilius.

So, yes, Bellatrix torturing Hermione = terrible and harrowing. Harry torturing Amycus = not even worth describing as torture.

/the hand gets angry at Peter’s merciful act and turns on him, strangling him instead./

Even though Voldemort explicitly ordered the Death Eaters to not kill Harry, that the boy would be his alone to kill. In fact, Peter doesn’t even set Harry free, he just hesitates. Hesitating to disobey your master’s orders constitutes rebellion and defiance now?

/All those fan theories about how the hand would be used against Remus, and that were much cooler than anything in the actual book, bite the dust along with Peter./

As well as all those fan theories about how the life debt would play out. Yes, it turns out that it wouldn’t be anything as dramatic as Peter saving Harry’s life in return or expressly sparing him or helping to stop Voldemort. Nope, a few minutes of hesitation are all that’s needed to repay Harry’s decision to keep Remus and Sirius from killing Peter. In that case, Harry owes Draco a life debt for hesitating to identify him. Unless JKR forgot what she’d written and thus unintentionally made Dumbledore a liar.

/Harry grabs the three wands Draco’s holding/

And somehow gains mastery of Draco’s wand and the Elder Wand. I guess that means that Snape/Remus/Tom/Peter/Draco/etc. are and were all masters of Harry’s wand at some point?

[maidofkent.livejournal.com]

Interesting comparisons. I would also point out the use of the word 'squeal' as compared to the word 'scream'. 'Squeal' is defined primarily by my copy of the Concise Oxford dictionary as 'prolonged shrill sound, especially a cry of a child or pig' whereas the primary definition of 'scream' is 'a loud high pitched piercing cry expressing fear, pain, extreme fright etc'. To use scream once, followed by squeal in the description of Xenophilus' torture, whereas Hermione is always described as screaming, seems to me to diminish his torture. Compare these two sentences:

"No, not Harry", screamed Lily as Voldemort approached.
"No,not Harry", squealed Lily as Voldemort approached.

IMO it's clear which sentence one would use to convey the horror of this situation.


Torture is always wrong, so I don’t approve of what Bellatrix is doing. I will, however, point out that Hermione’s mutilation and scarring of Marietta is never condemned nor is Harry’s use of the Cruciatus Curse. In fact, Amycus Carrow is not even described as if he is being tortured, like Xenophilius Lovegood was. All that happens is that there’s a “bang” and he goes flying and crumbles in a heap. There are even less pages and paragraphs describing what happened to him than there are of Xenophilius.

Agree with all of this.

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Great catch on the use of "squal." I'd add two things--squal is often used to describe (children's or animals') shrill noises of excitement or glee--a toddler squala at being tickled, or on seeing a present. "Scream" is very seldom used in that manner.

Sceondly, think about the definition of a "squealer".....

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Interesting comparisons. I would also point out the use of the word 'squeal' as compared to the word 'scream'.

I did that, although much more briefly than you did. It's in the paragraph right after the first table:

Notice the way Xeno reacts to being tortured: He is described as screaming after the first attack. Then he squeals repeatedly, although the second mention of him squealing is dismissed with the phrase, “repeated squeals of agony.” Note that he is described as screaming only once; the rest of the time he squeals, which makes him sound more like a nonhuman animal (a traitorous pig, maybe?) than a human.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

if I were in charge of the DEs and their allies, I would give them a list naming not just the people I was looking for, but also their quarries’ friends and relatives. If that had been done, the Snatchers would immediately have said, “Vernon Dudley? Oh, yeah -

I doubt the Snatchers are as smart as you. Also, multiply the number of people they're looking for by the number of family members and friends, all the permutations, and I doubt the size of the resulting list would be easy for many people to memorise.

- he’d also taboo “He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named” and “You-Know-Who.”

But isn't that what Riddle *wants* people to call him? They have to call him *something*.

(Actually, I would have thought that 'Lord Voldemort' is exactly what he *would* want people to call him. His minions call him 'my lord'; that's clearly his preference, he *wants* to be called a 'lord'. Lord who? Lord Voldemort -- wait, no, YOU CAN'T CALL ME THAT.

It just doesn't make sense. More of Rowling's silliness. The wizarding public not wanting to mention his name, fine; he's a bad guy. But the bad guy then enforcing a ban on his own (preferred) name/title? I don't get it. Unless someone can explain that to me - better than Fenrir! - I'm chalking this one down as a Rowling flaw. The whole Taboo thing was silly anyway.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

I think the basic premise for making 'Lord Voldemort' the name that would lead the DEs to you, is that Albus encouraged the use of the name over 'you-know-who' The people mostly to be actually using that moniker to refer to Voldy are Order members (or maybe the DA - if he knows about them). They are at the very least most likely to be followers of Dumbledore or Harry.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I have a quite opposite view to you about the comparison of Xeno and Hermione's tortures. The two cases are like chalk and cheese, you can't compare them:

• Bellatrix is Riddle's right-hand woman and a powerful sadist who *enjoys* torture (viz her 'heavy lidded' look at Hermione). The snatchers are two low-level minions who have responded to a general alarm.


• Bellatrix has a personal stake in poor Hermione's torture - "blood traitor is next to Mudblood in my book". The snatchers have no such personal investment in Xeno.


• Rowling probably thought that it was more suitable for an adult man to 'squeal' and a vulnerable girl to 'scream'. That's probably all there is to it.


• Bellatrix almost surely tortured poor Hermione much more 'heavily' than the snatchers with Xeno. There's no 'CRUCIO!' Curses heard at the Lovegood residence.


• The objective of the snatchers was to force Xeno to "get up those stairs" and bring down Harry. Bellatrix tortured poor Hermione to a point where she was "lying at Bellatrix's feet", unconscious. Two entirely different goals. In fact I don't think you can call Xeno's case 'torture' at all. More like assault, bullying, etc.

Your tables are pretty, but made redundant by the above facts, I feel.

Also, other reasons why our intrepid heroes would not pay as much attention to Xeno as Hermione:

• He's an adult man who is betraying them; she is a heroine laid low by the vilest of enemies. One 'deserves' some punishment (to some small extent; I think Xeno got a raw deal too!); one doesn't at all.


• In Xeno's case the Trio were madly trying to flee for their lives; with Hermione's situation Harry and Ron had almost nothing else to do but listen to her screams. Of course they'd pay more attention to her predicament than Xeno's!


• Hermione is their best friend; it's "only natural", as you say, that Harry - our narrator - would feel the screams of the girl he loves his best friend as "sound ... like physical pain".

So, yeah. Cute tables are cute but I think you're comparing apples and oranges.

I also know I’m supposed to see this as an innocent, noble young girl being horribly tormented by a sadistic fiend -

Yes.

- but after cataloguing Hermione’s own crimes earlier, I see this as one violent, ruthless criminal abusing another.

Blimey. You've got to be kidding me.

You remind me of one or two excited anti-Hermione fans I've encountered over the years:

Brad: Hermione is the heroine of the books!

Anti-Hr fan: But she's a criminal! She scarred Marietta! With non-permanent pimples; to a girl who betrayed a multitude of peers to a sadist, breaking an oath in doing so!

Brad: She's saved Harry's life innumerable times!

Anti-Hr fan: She scarred Marietta! mitigating factors as previously conveniently ignored.

Brad: She strives to save poor defenceless creatures like Buckbeak!

Anti-Hr fan: Marietta!

Brad: And the elves!

Anti-Hr fan: Marietta!

Brad: She's altruistic, extorting Harry not to lie!

Anti-Hr fan: Marietta!

Brad: She tries her hardest to help her peers learn how to defend themselves!

Anti-Hr fan: Marietta!

Brad (becoming excited): She becomes Minister of Magic, brokers peace in the Middle East and cures cancer!

Anti-Hr fan: Ah ... oh, right - Marietta!

Sorry, I'm feeling a bit silly today. Anyway, a "violent, ruthless criminal"? Hermione Granger? No.

Oh, forgot to say ... although we are supposed to think that Bellatrix is a sadistic expert at torture, I guess it's clear that she left the ULTIMATE torture spell in reserves, right? Worse than blugeoners, worse even than the CRUCIATUS 'super torture' spell itself, Hermione can be only grateful that Bellatrix didn't recourse to the ULTIMATE in the most HORRID of torture spells ...

... and curse the poor girl with pimples!! Right? :-)

[urbanman1984.livejournal.com]

One can nonetheless observe that Hermione and Bellatrix are both fiercely loyal to wizards who are not as smart or capable as they themselves are.

The film made the contemptible crux of Deathly Hallows even worse than the text - having Hermione be fine with Harry's megalomaniacal, schizophrenic impulse to go to his death by dark wizard. The Hermione written in the text for much of the series would have stopped him even if she had to lobotomise him and take him far away from the UK and abandon the matter of Voldemort and the whole shambles of Death Eater rule.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

You repeatedly refer to the men who tortured Xeno as "snatchers," i.e., bounty hunters. They're not; they're Death Eaters, Selwyn and Travers, to be exact. Whether they're "low level" or not is not stated in the text. You're making stuff up to support your position. That's par for your course, as we'll see.

Rowling probably thought that it was more suitable for an adult man to 'squeal' and a vulnerable girl to 'scream'. That's probably all there is to it.

Oh, please. As maidofkent said above, "Interesting comparisons. I would also point out the use of the word 'squeal' as compared to the word 'scream'. 'Squeal' is defined primarily by my copy of the Concise Oxford dictionary as 'prolonged shrill sound, especially a cry of a child or pig' whereas the primary definition of 'scream' is 'a loud high pitched piercing cry expressing fear, pain, extreme fright etc'. To use scream once, followed by squeal in the description of Xenophilus' torture, whereas Hermione is always described as screaming, seems to me to diminish his torture. Compare these two sentences:

"No, not Harry", screamed Lily as Voldemort approached.
"No,not Harry", squealed Lily as Voldemort approached.

IMO it's clear which sentence one would use to convey the horror of this situation.

Your tables are pretty...Cute tables are cute

This is really condescending. Are you trying to be offensive?

You remind me of one or two excited anti-Hermione fans I've encountered over the years:

Brad: Hermione is the heroine of the books!

Anti-Hr fan: But she's a criminal! She scarred Marietta! With non-permanent pimples; to a girl who betrayed a multitude of peers to a sadist, breaking an oath in doing so!

I'm not the one who brought up Marietta. You are. I went back and looked at my other references to Hermione's crimes, in chapters 6 and 7. My only reference to Marietta in 112 pages (posted so far) was this sentence fragment from 7: "Permanently disfiguring another girl for breaking an agreement with a school club, with consequences she didn’t know in advance." You're correct that the text does not explicitly state Marietta was permanently scarred. However, the fact that she still had the disfiguring skin condition just as badly as she did initially for the entire next school year means the damage was (1) long-term, and (2) hard to eradicate, both of which lead to permanent scarring. I know something about this, having had acne, including painful, scarring, cystic acne, for most of my life. By your own admission, you've never had skin problems, so your ridiculing of Marietta's plight is both callous and utterly despicable. No wonder you like Hermione so much.

TBC

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

We all know you're irrational on the subject of Hermione, so I'm not going to waste a lot of time refuting your Marietta-related claims. I will just point out the following facts.

1) The DA agreement was a contract.
2) Minors cannot sign contracts.
3) If they do sign a contract, for whatever reason, the contract cannot be enforced against them.
4) Even if a contract is valid and enforceable, the person wronged by the violation of the contract has limited means to collect damages. They can sue to recoup their money (credit cards or other loans), repossess the object (cars, furniture, or the like), foreclose (real estate), or sue for money damages (e.g., when a contractor doesn't finish a job).

WHAT THEY CANNOT DO IS PHYSICALLY HARM THE PERSON WHO DEFAULTED. PERIOD! THAT IS THE LAW!

The only people who physically attack and punish people for not living up to agreements are Mafia goons. By your endorsement of Hermione's revenge against Marietta, you are admitting you think violent criminality is acceptable if somebody violates a[n invalid, thus non-binding] contract or agreement.

Actually, Hermione is worse than a Mafia goon. Even the Mafia doesn't make agreements with minors. And everybody knows if they default on an agreement with a loan shark or Mafioso, they'll be seriously injured or killed.

BUT HERMIONE NEVER EXPLAINED TO HER CLASSMATES THE CONSEQUENCES OF BREAKING THE AGREEMENT SHE WROTE!

This is not even to consider that Marietta never wanted to sign the agreement in the first place. She was pressured into it. An agreement signed under duress is also invalid, for that reason.

I don't doubt for a second that if their positions were reversed, you would consider Marietta an evil, ruthless bitch who deserved to spend years in Azkaban for disfiguring poor widdle, innocent Hermoninny. That's the difference between you and me. I have one standard of morality for everyone, whether I like them or not. You have different standards depending on your feelings for someone. You don't believe It's Okay If A Gryffindor Does It. You believe It's Okay If Hermione Does It.

Regarding Hermione's parents, she mind-raped them and gave them new identities. That is both a gross violation of their civil rights and a form of brainwashing. Relocating them to Australia without their knowledge or consent is kidnapping. Kidnapping and disfiguring assault are violent crimes. That is not my opinion. That is the law. Deal with it.

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

Hi, 'Brad! Nice to see you posting! Not that I AGREE any more than I ever had with your conclusions, but still it's nice to hear your dulcet tones and watch your skills in keeping the pot boiling...


And I owe you particular thanks here--you made me mentally reveiw all Hermione's various crimes and assualts, and that made me realize I'd unfairly minimized her assault upon Cormac.

I'd read that some schoolkids had been schoked by it, on the grounds that Sports are Sacrosanct and Cheating at Team Try Oouts is Just Not Done. Yet that very factor made me overlook this offense; I hold academics more important than sports, and she was a chear, more or less nonstop, throughtout her first five years.

(And, of course, her repeatedly doing Ron & Harry's work for them did eventually come back to haunt her, though it's not clear she ever acknowledge this: on the Camping Trip from Hell, she was saddled with two useless lumps whom she'd trained to sit back and let her do ALL the researching, and almost all of the heavy lifting.)

But, see, my scon for Quidditch, and for the relative importance of blatent cheating in Quidditch try-outs, blinded me to the severity of Hermione's crime there.

Translate her actions back into Muggle terms: a teenage girl, trying to get her incompetent boyrfirend on the team, druge his best rival in try-outs so he'll blunder around in a daze.

That is ASSAULT.

Now factor in that the tryouts in question involve operating equipment at hight veolociies.

And Hermione's curse left Cormac so disoriented that he was walking into walls many hours later!

Remenind me--when someone hexed Harry's broom in book one to try to cause him to fall, what did we call that crime?

Attempted murder.

There is not an exact equivalent in Muggle terms. Except maybe drugging a racecar driver so that his reflexes would be off enough to crash.

Hermione committed an egregious assault. Upon someone who had never harmed her, nor anyone else to her knowledge. In order to assure her boyfriend a team position she thought he could not fairly earn. And to accomplish this, she used a spell that could have sent Cormac to his death.

I checked this. People survivie falls, yes, as Hassy survived his various Quidditch falls. With, in Harry's, case, the help of the good luck his mother's willing death purchasedd.


But I checked: he "ld-50" for surviviing falls is about 50 feet. The height of the Quidditch hoops. So someonne NOT shileded by mother's-deaht-luck has a fifty-fifty chance of dying in that fall.

And Hermione set Cormac up for that. To get her boyfriend a palce on a team.

Now that's callous.

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

Hermione hits Harry in the face with a spell that makes his face swell up as if he’s just been stung by an entire hive of bees. The Trio lies about their names, and Harry’s pseudonym is particularly dumb: Vernon Dudley. I know I’m probably being entirely too logical, but if I were in charge of the DEs and their allies, I would give them a list naming not just the people I was looking for, but also their quarries’ friends and relatives. If that had been done, the Snatchers would immediately have said, “Vernon Dudley? Oh, yeah, Harry Potter grew up with an uncle named Vernon and a cousin named Dudley. Given how dumb Potter is, this is probably him using a phony name.” Of course, calling Harry “dumb” would prick his Gryffindor pride, making him indignant, and he would reveal himself by that alone.

It's also spectacularly stupid fake name to use because it's very obviously a muggle name.
While it's true that picking a fake name in a very small community (where you assume everybody knows or have heard of everybody) taking a muggle name while trying to avoid being detained by "mudblood" hunters is not a smart way to go.
Also, Harry saying he was a Slytherin?
I understand that he have only seen Slytherin common room (and it's a nice callback to book2) but come on! The way JKR wrote it most DE and snatchers are past Slytherins. So, if they wanted interrogate Harry on Slytherin ("And how do bedrooms look?" . . .) he'd be out of luck. And some of them may even have kids in Slytherin now. And know that there's no "Vernon Dudley" in Slytherin.

Plus, shouldn't a "good little Slytherin" be at school now? Enjoying being a top dog and lording their power over the rest of the houses? Not hiding in the woods.

Fenrir Greyback makes some leering remarks about Hermione, but there’s no tension because we know JKR won’t allow her self-insert to be sexually abused.

However, she will allow her to be tortured. With true Gryffindor gallantry, Ron offers himself instead, but Bella wants to spill some muddy blood with her pretty silver knife.
See, I have a problem with this.
If JKR decide "nope, no sexual abuse or even hints of possible sexual abuse in my books!" and then never wrote Hermione being threatened by Greyback or the closest to girl-on-girl torture porn I have ever seen in YA books? That would be one thing.
But as we have Greyback and Bellatrix getting off on torturing somebody?
Then that opens two big and nasty cans of worms.

One; If there's sexual abuse or possible sexual abuse in HP books?
Then what is happening back at Hogwarts? Even if DE stationed there aren't abusing kids in that way, there are still a lot of hormonal Hitler Voldy Youth there who were given the power to punish others as they want.
Are we really to believe that, for example, Crabbe never molested anybody during that year? Or threatened to?
And that a big % of Hogwarts students wasn't living in fear of somthign like that happening?
The only way I can see that avoided is if Snape was making metric tons of some libido killing potion and spiking everybody's food with it.

Two; Why Hermione?
Taking aside the whole "Hermione is a criminal / isn't a criminal thing" there's still the fact that out of three of them Hermione a *girl* is the only one threatened and tortured. Why not have Greyback (who we know likes attacking boys) also comment on how much Ron looks like Bill (who was already mauled by him) and how much he'd like killing or turning Ron?
It would even be in character for him.
Basically, why is Greyback only targeting (sexually or otherwise) a female character?
And why is Bellatrix torturing Hermione and not Ron? Or even Harry? Sure, she can't kill Harry as he belongs to her master, but torture him a bit? Harry who (successfully or not) cast Cruciatus on her? And who she hates for being a pain for her master?
If she wanted to use Hermione as a example and make the boys talk to save her, then why not torture her in front of them?
No, it looks like Hermione is the one threatened and tortured (and even torture is sexualised) just to have a female abused.

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

Just to clarify; I don't think that if Harry or Ron were the one being tortured that would have made it okay.
Torture (even if fictional) bothers me regardless of who's being tortured.

The point I was trying to make with "it's the girl being tortured" is; that is same old crap.
Female character is threatened with sexual violence, the one enduring torture porn, the one seen as a "week link", the one boys must rescue (never mind that they were saved by Luna, Doby and incredibly stupid plot hole silver arm) . . .

Seriously, a lot of times we see (or are told about) somebody being tortured (in any way) it's a female character (Lily begging for Harry's life, Charity Burbage begging for her life, Alice Longbottom tortured into insanity, Myrtle the first killed student / child we read about even if we aren't shown her death or even distressingly, expected to feel sorry for, Marietta and her pain, Umbridge and her trauma at the hands of the centaurs, Hermione's torture here).
When it's a male character it's handled much differently. They either die in some heroic (well, if they are "good") way or they aren't even aware of what killed them. No begging for them. Even DD's suicide by Snape was shown differently.
Torture? Harry shrugs off Crucio like it's nothing. It hurts him but he's not afraid. Torture quill? Who cares that's mutilating his hand, his pride and principles are more important!

Idk, there's just somthign about the way JKR writes genders and torture / death that bothers me.

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

So the multiple episodes of Xeno’s torturing are blown off with just a few brief mentions that contain no detailed descriptions of how he was injured or how badly, let alone what his screams sounded like. The DEs hurt him at least as many times as Bella hurts Hermione, and over a shorter period, but his torture is virtually shrugged off by the narrator, being dismissed by only a few brief mentions over just one-and-a-half pages. By contrast, Bella’s torture of Hermione goes on for six pages, with each assault and each scream described in detail, and is briefly described on three other pages. There are nine attacks altogether, judging by the number of screams.

When reading this chapter for the first time I was uncomfortable with how much it looked like torture porn. The way everything is so lovingly described is a bit disturbing. Even the fact that we don't see the torture itself makes it, IMO, worse. While reading we are picturing what's happening and our minds can conjure the worst things we can think of.
Reading this comparison to what Xeno went through only makes it worse. I agree with you that shrugging off Xeno's pain and making it unimportant is wrong. That part of the book (same as so many others) should have been handled better.
But I don't think that writing that in the same way as torture in this chapter would have made it better for me.

In addition, Xeno is an old man, not a healthy teenager. That alone makes it worse to torture him than Hermione.
I'm not comfortable with classifying torture or saying that "this kind of torture was worse then this = so person X's pain and suffering were smaller then person Y's" in any way.
So, this kind of thing is disquieting to me. I don't think we can make that kind of statements. It just doesn't lead anywhere good. We can go on with "Ah, but Bella is a sadist who gets off on torture and have even tortured people to insanity before! While the nameless DE might be just punch clock villains who are just magically slapping Xeno around! That means his pain is lesser!" or "But Xeno is a father who's daughter is held by monsters! Aside from pain and fear he's feeling for himself, the fear for his child must be even grater! That means his pain is more important!" /seriously, when I was reading the Xeno chapter I felt horrible for his pain but I had even more sympathy for how terrified he must be thinking what DE might do to Luna to punish him.

Pain is pain. Torture is torture. And that is always wrong. Even if the one being tortured is a bad person torture is still wrong.

Now, I expect Harry and Ron to react far more strongly to the torture of their friend than to that of someone they don’t know, and whom they regard as having betrayed them. That’s only natural. What is not natural is for any of the Trio to have no reaction at all to someone screaming in agony just a few yards/meters away. For them to feel nothing--no shock, no horror, no revulsion, no desire to help--is at best catatonic, and at worst psychopathic.
I think that trio went from "good, close frineds" to almost "one codependent organism with no connection to anybody else" a while ago.
They think and care almost exclusively about each others. Even people they are interest (however tangentially) them are in some way extensions of "Trio". Ron's sister, Ron's brothers, Ron's family who we like, Harry's godfather . . .
For 3 books I was wondering do they even see other people as people anymore. So, their total detachment while seeing Xeno's torture doesn't surprise me.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

When reading this chapter for the first time I was uncomfortable with how much it looked like torture porn. The way everything is so lovingly described is a bit disturbing.

Ooh, excellent point. I hadn't considered that, but you're right. Girl on girl torture porn. Yep, nothing gay about that, either. Come to think of it, Bella must never have heard of AIDS, hepatitis, or other blood borne diseases. Otherwise one would think fear of infection alone would have made her go for another form of torture.

I agree with you that shrugging off Xeno's pain and making it unimportant is wrong. That part of the book (same as so many others) should have been handled better. But I don't think that writing that in the same way as torture in this chapter would have made it better for me.

I don't see why she had to have detailed descriptions of anybody's torture. I think we can all agree that this book is WAY too damned long already. Cutting Hermione's torture--if she had to have it at all--to a couple of pages and a few brief mentions would have helped to shorten DBP. Harry and Ron would have been strongly motivated to rescue her regardless. Making it so long and detailed gives the impression Rowling is getting off on the pain and violence. I've read many horror novels and some brutally realistic other fiction (e.g., anything by Andrew Vachss). The only other book I've ever read that goes on with a violent scene so long and so "lovingly" is The Game, by JKR's partner in sickness and misogyny, Laurie R King. In that case, it's a long and graphic description of boar-hunting that sounds like gay male torture porn. Both of these books are really sick and very pornographic.

I'm not comfortable with classifying torture or saying that "this kind of torture was worse then this = so person X's pain and suffering were smaller then person Y's" in any way.

That's not what I meant. I was referring to the biological fact that the older you get, the easier it is to get injured, and the longer it takes and harder it is to heal. That's why it's worse to torture an old man than a healthy teenager. It's also a fact that some people have a higher tolerance for pain than others, or a slightly different nervous system, so they're more or less susceptible to pain, depending on their biology. But since there's no objective way to measure that yet, you're correct that one can't say whose pain is worse.

I think that trio went from "good, close frineds" to almost "one codependent organism with no connection to anybody else" a while ago.

LOL! That makes them sound like the Blob in the 1950s horror movie. I'm now imagining them as a big, pink sphere of jelly, rolling around Britain, sucking up Horcruxes and destroying them by ingesting them, the way the Blob killed people. It also makes them sound like the main characters in the first horror story I ever read. These five men were chewed up in a threshing machine, then rose from the dead and fused themselves into one body to get revenge on the man who killed them. They had one torso, four heads and legs, and I think two arms. Maybe people who say Rowling writes horror are right. ;-)

[jana-ch.livejournal.com]

My thought is that an old man recovers from physical trauma less easily than a healthy teenager, not that a healthy teenager's pain is more acceptable. I say this as someone with a physical handicap that makes me get injured more easily than the average person. Joe Blow trips and falls down; he says "ouch" and gets up again. I fall down and there's a decent chance I'll be in a cast for a couple of months.

It's possible, of course, that Cruciatus doesn't cause physical damage, since it's magical pain. Then the main physical risk would be knocking yourself into something while thrashing.

[sunnyskywalker]

The Trio not reacting to Xeno's pain would make a lot more sense if this were (a) a middle book or (b) a gritty tale starring anti-heroes. If it were a middle book, they could be unsympathetic and we could expect that developing empathy would be part of their character growth, and if it were a gritty anti-hero kind of book, the kids wouldn't have been cast as heroes in the first place. Neither is the case, so what gives?

I wouldn't expect them to react exactly the same in both circumstances, but Rowling has cast them as heroes, and heroes are supposed to be at least a teeny bit better people than average, yes? Furthermore, she has flagged Harry in particular as having an exceptional capacity for love and a "saving-people thing." This is what she expects us to believe of him. So shouldn't Our Heroes at least twitch when they hear Xeno's squeals of agony? Even just in the same way people tend to instinctively flinch when they see someone else's thumb get smashed with a hammer? They could be upset that he turned them in and still react to his pain. Or if they're too wrapped up in their own fear even for that, shouldn't they have a moment after they escape where one of them says what a dirty traitor Xeno was, and another realizes that gosh it would be tough to have one's child held hostage, and what would they do if one of them were captured? And maybe they don't come to an agreement, but sit and and somber a bit after their narrow escape.

Something like that would leave enough space to let the reader decide how they balanced Xeno's culpability against his victimization, not make the Trio too "perfect," and still make them look like decent people. Surely the final book in a series with supposedly moderately heroic characters is the point at which you're meant to show your protagonists becoming better people than they have been, able to sympathize and rise above where they might not have in previous books? Able to see a bigger picture, not just "Enemy SMASH"? This is why we were all expecting the Houses to work together, the magical species to become allies, the Dementors to be defeated, or at least one of the many injustices in the wizarding world put on track to be righted. After 6 books, Voldemort dying wasn't going to be a satisfying conclusion on its own. What does that leave? The protagonists growing as people surely figures in most possible endings. But in this book, they seem to regress.

The Pettigrew vs. Silver Hand thing is such a mess. I can't think of any explanation other than that she lost track of the plot thread and shoved in a hasty solution just to be done with it. Like so many other subplots! Poor subplots, they deserved better.

I expect that Bella's knife is a magic silver knife like the one Peter has, something capable of slicing off an entire human hand in one stroke and who knows what else. Maybe magic knives don't count as too Muggle-ish? They're probably an ancient magical technology and so would get grandfathered in as they might not have if invented today.

Why couldn't Harry have been trying to peek into Voldemort's head on purpose at this point to get intel? Something that would make him less passive, and the visions less contrived.

[dracasadiablo.livejournal.com]

See, the only way the series would have made sense to (and the way I would have expected it to end if I have believed even for a moment JKR would go there) me would have been if it ended as a cautionary tail.
You know; "Power corrupts", "He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." kind of thing.
Give us three characters who started as flawed (but who isn't?) but still nice kids and along the way got twisted by a horrible society, monstrous mentors and by the choices they made. So that by the end of the last book readers have no doubt about the fact that the "heroes" are now heroes in name only.

But instead we got a highly unsatisfactory book that pretty much glorifies detachment and seeing others as things, might makes right and the idea that if you are one of the "good guys" you can do anything at all and it's perfectly okay.

In a book like that the idea that there may be shades of gray in Xeno's "betrayal" have no place.
Frightening really, when you consider how praised the books are and how many kids adore them.

I expect that Bella's knife is a magic silver knife like the one Peter has, something capable of slicing off an entire human hand in one stroke and who knows what else. Maybe magic knives don't count as too Muggle-ish? They're probably an ancient magical technology and so would get grandfathered in as they might not have if invented today.
*snort* It probably have precision-guided spell on it too! That's how it target locked to Dobby.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

f it were a gritty anti-hero kind of book, the kids wouldn't have been cast as heroes in the first place.

Exactly. I mentioned Andrew Vachss above. All his books are "gritty anti-hero" novels. His main characters come across as heroic only because the people they're fighting are so much worse. His Burke series is about a career criminal in New York City who usually battles child pornographers. His new series features a former mercenary who's retired from the French Foreign Legion and living under an assumed identity. Those men aren't just unsavory; they stink to high heaven. But as unpleasant as they are, I don't doubt they'd have at least a little sympathy for somebody in Xeno's position. Sure, they'd be PO'd at him for betraying them, but they'd also understand he was terrified for his daughter and realize it was reasonable for him to put his child's well-being ahead of the safety of three strangers.

Rowling is right that this is the kind of ugly choice people are faced with in wartime. But instead of using this situation to explore the cruelty of war, and how important it is for the good guys to win so nobody has to make that choice again, she just presents it as a simple[-minded], clear-cut case of "bad man betrays heroic Trio = he deserves torture and no sympathy." So she ends up giving the opposite message to the one she probably intended.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

So shouldn't Our Heroes at least twitch when they hear Xeno's squeals of agony? ... they could be upset that he turned them in and still react to his pain. ... shouldn't they have a moment after they escape where one of them says what a dirty traitor Xeno was, and another realizes that gosh it would be tough to have one's child held hostage, and what would they do if one of them were captured? And maybe they don't come to an agreement, but sit and and somber a bit after their narrow escape.

But Rowling has them do pretty much exactly that.

'One of them says what a dirty traitor Xeno was':

“That treacherous old bleeder.” Ron panted, emerging from beneath the Invisibility Cloak and throwing it to Harry.

'... and another realizes that gosh it would be tough to have one's child held hostage':

“She will,” said Harry. He could not bear to contemplate the alternative. “She’s tough, Luna, much tougher than you’d think. She’s probably teaching all the inmates about Wrackspurts and Nargles.”
“I hope you’re right,” said Hermione. She passed a hand over her eyes. “I’d feel so sorry for Xenophilius if ---“
“---if he hadn’t just tried to sell us to the Death Eaters, yeah,” said Ron.

And this:

"They’ve kidnapped Luna because her father supported Harry! What would happen to your family if they knew you’re with him?"

'they could be upset that he turned them in and still react to his pain.':

“Oh I hope they don’t kill him!” groaned Hermione

So there you go. Our heroes aren't as tarnished as you thought.

(Although, as usual, I'll concede that Hermione is the most empathic/thoughtful.)

[terri-testing.livejournal.com]

The table!

Kisses your hands, kisses your feet.

Oh, god, the table. That's what table are for: presendintg things side by side. So we can compare.

(Excuse me a moment--I think I need a tiuket.)

(All better now.)

Er, yes, it looks pretty awful when you put them side-sy-side, doesn't it?

However.

Bear im inind that this is writtien from Harry's POV.

It's Harry whose ears transmute "a bang--a scream of pain" into "another bang--another squeal" and then that volley of "bangs and squeals"

Bear in mind what else has just happened: an explositon that knowcked Xeno downstairs to face the Death Eaters, and left the Trio buried in rubble. Hermione silently shhes Harry before going to try to dig Ron (the worst bureied out). But she does this BEFORE the DEs come in and start on Xeno.

Ron is buried until Hermione finally unearths him. Hermione is busy trying to resuce her love-interest.

And Xeno, after all, is the tratior who'd tried to sell them for Luna.

If Hermione of Harry had been the one blasted doen the stias to face the Death Eaters, and Xeno the one buried immovably in rubble fromt he collapsed ceitiling, then this chapter would hav gone quite differently. But I cna't fault the kids for putting rescuing each other above fescuing Mr. Lovegood.

What is appalling, abysmal, psychopathic, is that they could listen to Xeno's troture uttterly unmoved.

But, see, we only know this of Harry. He's the PoV character--it's in his listening that screams of agony register as contemptible squeals.

We don't know that Hermione or Ton took Xeno's pain so lightly.

(We do, of couse, know that Jo meant US to....)

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

He's the PoV character--it's in his listening that screams of agony register as contemptible squeals.

But, Terri ... Xeno's outbursts register as 'squeals', and not 'screams of agony' ... because they're weren't.

This is part of the problem with blindly accepting what oneandthetruth kicks off with as the very foundation of her critique - Xeno was tortured! And lo, we have all of these differences.

Start off instead with an honest assessment, using all of the evidence, and the fairest decision is that he *wasn't* 'tortured'.

They were squeals ... because they *weren't* 'screams of agony'.

Case closed. Yes, it's really that simple. :-)

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

Hi Oneandthetruth, could you attach some tags to this post? I'd really, really hate to see such great work get lost in the archive, especially those fantastic tables :D

I wish I had more to add, but almost everything I wanted to say has been covered by other posters. I would like to comment on Peter's silver hand though, and how it actually makes perfect sense.

The trick is, it's not an explosive leash monitoring Peter's actions. It's an explosive leash monitoring his motivations. Peter's betrayed every group he's ever allied with: the Marauders, the OotP, and the Death Eaters, and he's a lot more competent that almost anyone credits. He (seemingly) passed information undetected under Dumbledore's nose for a year despite Dumbles being a Legilimens of Voldie's caliber. After the situation in Godric's Hollow went FUBAR, he convinced the entire world that he was dead and framed his old friend - and sure to be among his most dogged pursuers, in addition to being one of the few who knew his animagus form - for the crime, getting him safely locked away, When his cover was accidentally blown by that picture in the Prophet and Sirius' subsequent escape, he gutlessly crawled back to the biggest bully around who might still be convinced to (and in fact did) shelter him as a last resort.

Who in their right mind would trust a loose canon like that without something to ensure he remained loyal - no matter how the winds of fortune were blowing? Peter would have been fine if he'd stopped choking Harry because he remembered Voldemort's orders to take him alive. Peter died because, for even a split second, he considered what loyalty or obligation he owed to Harry as a result of the life debt.

[oneandthetruth.livejournal.com]

Hi Oneandthetruth, could you attach some tags to this post? I'd really, really hate to see such great work get lost in the archive, especially those fantastic tables :D

Sure, and thank you for the compliments. I was so intent on getting the tables to work, especially since I had to do this post in HTML, that I completely forgot to add tags.

Your points about Peter are excellent. Now, if only all that had been explained in the book. :(

[annoni-no.livejournal.com]

This reminded of another thought I'd had about the confrontation between Peter and Sirius. Terri Testing and others have put forth that Sirius accepted Azkaban because he thought he had killed Peter and the 12 muggles who died in the explosion. Obviously he was wrong about Peter, but the theory went that he probably was right about being responsible for the other deaths, which would still merit a life sentence in Azkaban anyway. I'm not sure anymore that that last part is necessarily, or even probably true. See, the thing is that Peter is all about covering his own ass, and he needed that explosion to happen. Pete knows how to plan ahead, too. He brought Bertha Jorkins with him when looking for Voldemort as a hostage/sacrificial offering. He had the foresight to bring bloody robes and and assorted bits of flesh/blood that would be identified as his to the confrontation with Sirius (his finger was only the biggest piece they found, not the only one). Even if he split the gas main beforehand, all that prep would have been useless if Sirius cast anything that wouldn't trigger an explosion. Even if Sirius was known for casting Incendio or some other curse likely to cause the spark Peter needed, could he be sure of that? At that point, Sirius had had all night to consider exactly what he was going to do to the traitor once he got his hands on him. If he'd decided that a blast was too good for the rat, that he'd rather use the entrail-expelling curse or a curse to flay him alive or anything that would leave a body behind, Peter was screwed because priori incatatem (assuming an investigation) would show that Sirius couldn't have caused the explosion Pete used to mask his getaway. Which would raise questions of who did, which could lead suspicion back to him once Sirius revealed the SK switch.

If I were Peter, I'd cast some sort of defensive spell known for going explosively wrong if miscast, just in case the worst happened and I was picked up later. I'd still be able to plead self-defense, and would anyone expect poor, pitiful Pettigrew to pull off such spell, or such treachery, successfully? However, because the timing would have to be so exact in order to make it believable that Sirius' spell was the trigger, Pete would have had to set his own spell off as soon as Sirius was about to cast, make it almost certain that he'd be the proximate cause of the explosion no matter what Sirius threw. This would still leave Sirius guilty of assault and reckless endangerment at the very best reading, which are both deserving of jail time, but it would clear him of murder/manslaughter. Unfortunately, that's the sort of thing police investigations are supposed to sort out, and by the time we get to canon any evidence that could have exonerated Sirius (presuming he was innocent of the explosion) has been lost, unless either pensieved memories can show what Peter cast, or Peter kept his original wand, did not find a way to delete its memory so priori incantatem could be used, and both wand and Pete were recovered and could both be linked to the crime scene. Obviously, this is highly unlikely.

[hwyla.livejournal.com]

Since Peter needed to grab Remus' wand to change back into a rat in PoA, I would say that he either probably destroyed his own wand or hid it somewhere very 'safe' (along with Voldy's wand) on his way to the Weasley's in '81. He apparently couldn't transform without one.

Which leaves me wondering how living as a rat - even a pampered pet one - without transforming back to human for so many years might affect one?

[dorea-ysleen.livejournal.com]

Heated discussion here. I think the Trio's behaviour illustrates the effects of a war on growing up quite well. On the one hand, you learn to be pragmatic, do what it takes to keep yourself and yours safe, and make tough decisions - even if they're morally questionable - if they are (or feel) necessary in a given situation. On the other hand, deeper thinking, critical self-reflection and empathy for people outside your own circle often fall to the wayside. That's why I would have liked the epilogue to be set shortly after the war and show the characters dealing with the fallout - thinking about their own actions and recognising their mistakes and recognising others' motivations as well as finding ways to rebuild the wizarding world as a better place with fewer prejudices on both sides.

[oryx_leucoryx]

For these reasons (among others) I find 'The Hunger Games' both a more realistic depiction of growing up in a war/warlike situation as well as a series with a more sympathetic protagonist. Katniss actually reflects on her actions and decisions. She has places where she wonders whether she acted rightly, what her true motivation had been in past situations and what that says about her.

[mary-j-59.livejournal.com]

Interesting discussion, everyone! Brad, I do feel I have to chime in here to say one thing. Like you, I don't see Hermione as a murderer - certainly not of her parents. I don't see her as having anything but good intentions most of the time. But-

That you are minimizing Xeno's suffering to elevate her is really disturbing. Yes, that's what Rowling does. She chooses words to condemn Xeno. But, as adult and sophisticated readers, one of the things we're doing here is analyzing how and why she does that. And-

This is an old man whose daughter has been kidnapped and is under threat of death. He gets (at the very least) beaten up by younger, stronger men. He is terrorized (for his daughter, whom he wants to save) and coerced by physical pain and threats of violence. To me, that's the definition of torture.

Hermione may well suffer more, physically. She does not suffer more mentally, and there's such a thing as mental torture.

You don't have to insist that Xeno isn't tortured in order to have compassion for Hermione and her situation.

BTW, I think it would have been really interesting had Voldemort kidnapped Ginny and tried to coerce Molly and Arthur in this way. What would they have done? But, once again, Rowling pulled her punches. Only characters she doesn't like, and whom she expects her readers not to like (Snape, Xeno, the Malfoys) get faced with these sorts of dilemmas.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

[Rowling] chooses words to condemn Xeno.

She also chooses words to describe the severity of his predicament. That's all an author *can* do. Employ words to describe a situation.

It's oneandthetruth's then coming along and putting non-existent words into Rowling's pen which is the problem here.

She starts out by flatly stating that Xeno was tortured, proceeding to place it on a level with Hermione's experience. "The torture of Xeno Lovegood" ... "the terrible suffering of this old man" ... "several vicious attacks" ... Oneandthetruth escalates Xeno's case to one of parity with Hermione's.

And then, lo, she finds lots of differences between the two scenes. Differences which she ascribes to Rowling's "indifference to a minor character's pain" and the evil Trio's evil evilness.

Of course there were differences. Because Xeno's situation was different!. The critique was in error from the start by trying to insinuate that they were identical.

But, as adult and sophisticated readers, one of the things we're doing here is analyzing how and why she does that.

And in doing so we should use all of the published material in a non-biased fashion. As adult and sophisticated readers.

Oneandthetruth should have started by posing the question "was Xeno tortured (like Hermione)?". Instead she just states that as flat-out fact. When it isn't.

To me, that's the definition of torture.

*shrug*

We're starting to quibble on technicalities, I think. I don't believe Xeno's (physical) situation stacks up with the meaning of the word 'torture'. He was pushed around, bullied, forced by violence to grass on Harry. That's not in the same ballpark as being tortured by a well-known torturer with a track record of torturing people into insanity using the torture curse on the person being tortured.

But, Mary, if you want to still use the word 'torture' for Xeno, that's fine. It seems that you're like another person here, who agreed with me that Xeno's situation couldn't compare with Hermione's, but still wanted to call them both 'torture'. Just ... 'lesser' torture for Mr. Lovegood.

Ultimately, as long as we're agreed that Xeno wasn't treated as harshly as Hermione, Oneandthetruth's tables founder from their erroneous start - that they are comparing two equivalent scenes.

Anyway, it sounds like we're in agreement about the not-torture thing, for the purposes of that scene and the tables:

Hermione may well suffer more, physically. She does not suffer more mentally, and there's such a thing as mental torture.

Right. Hermione suffered more physically.

The Trio didn't even know about that 'mental torture' until the moment when Xeno attacked them, followed immediately after by almost being killed by an explosion and an incursion of death eaters. In the few seconds that the Trio had while trying to work out how they could save their lives and escape they didn't really have the opportunity to sit down and draw neat tables and ponder the full gamut of Xeno's predicament.

Such time for introspection came after. When they *did* show sympathy for Xeno (viz the quotes I have supplied). Evil Trio isn't really that evil!

BTW, I think it would have been really interesting had Voldemort kidnapped Ginny and tried to coerce Molly and Arthur in this way. What would they have done?

Pretty much the obvious thing for the villain to do, isn't it? If he's sincere in grabbing 'Public Enemy #1'. Given as how Harry and Ginny 'break up' at the very end of the previous school year I doubt many adults outside the family even knew that they weren't a couple any more. And even if they did ... they're villains. Grab the girl anyway, see if it works.

But, once again, Rowling pulled her punches.

I think it was a case of her simply not knowing how to get Harry out of such a predicament. Above all else in the series Rowling seemed determined to keep Harry firmly in his place as just a barely-adequate wizard. No extraordinary magical talent, no heroic leadership.

That's why the bad guys are all dumbed down in the final book ... she didn't want to smarten up the hero, but he still had to win. Rowling's answer - lower the opposition.