[identity profile] oneandthetruth.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] deathtocapslock
Beethoven was right: It’s vastly harder to rewrite something you’ve finished than to write something entirely new. Especially when you have to revert to HTML because that’s the only way to enter tables on LJ. Aaaaagggggghhhhh!!!!!

I apologize if they look weird, but I followed the instructions, and that's how they turned out. However, the instructions were posted almost eight years ago, and LJ has changed its programming some since then. It's also possible I couldn't transfer my tables because I wrote this on iPages, not Word.

Are everybody’s barf bags at the ready? All right, then, let’s go!

Hermione hits Harry in the face with a spell that makes his face swell up as if he’s just been stung by an entire hive of bees. The Trio lies about their names, and Harry’s pseudonym is particularly dumb: Vernon Dudley. I know I’m probably being entirely too logical, but if I were in charge of the DEs and their allies, I would give them a list naming not just the people I was looking for, but also their quarries’ friends and relatives. If that had been done, the Snatchers would immediately have said, “Vernon Dudley? Oh, yeah, Harry Potter grew up with an uncle named Vernon and a cousin named Dudley. Given how dumb Potter is, this is probably him using a phony name.” Of course, calling Harry “dumb” would prick his Gryffindor pride, making him indignant, and he would reveal himself by that alone.

Fenrir Greyback says Voldemort’s name has been tabooed because his enemies weren’t showing him the proper respect, so he wanted to be able to punish them when they acted rude. At last the business of referring to him by pseudonyms makes sense. In the previous books, it just makes everybody look too wimpy to call him by his alias. Come to think of it, they still look wimpy in the books when he was incorporeal.

I wonder whether Voldemort is the only name that’s tabooed? What about Tom Riddle? What if somebody calls him a satiric corruption of his name, like Moldyshorts, Oldywart, or even Noisyfart? Those epithets are much more disrespectful than calling him by his assumed name. And if he were really as mean and nasty as he’s cracked up to be, he’d also taboo “He-Who-Must-Not-Be-Named” and “You-Know-Who.” Think of the fun! He and the DEs could wipe out nearly all their enemies at once, just by waiting for them to slip up and use one of his silly pseudonyms.

Despite the efforts of Hermione the Genius, the Trio are found out and taken to Malfoy Manor, along with Dean Thomas and Griphook the goblin. When they arrive, Batty Bellatrix is in charge, and Draco is dragged over to see if he can ID any of the prisoners. He very reluctantly IDs Hermione, which means two of the others must be Ron and Harry. Fenrir Greyback makes some leering remarks about Hermione, but there’s no tension because we know JKR won’t allow her self-insert to be sexually abused.

However, she will allow her to be tortured. With true Gryffindor gallantry, Ron offers himself instead, but Bella wants to spill some muddy blood with her pretty silver knife. Technically, only the handle could be silver; the blade would have to be stainless steel, or a similarly hard metal. Silver is too soft to make an effective knife blade.

Ron, Harry, and the other prisoners are stashed in the cellar, where they find Luna and Ollivander already there. Meanwhile, Bella starts in on Hermione, demanding to know where she got the Sword of Gryffindor, which is supposed to be in Bella’s vault at Gringotts.

I didn’t start out creating tables for this chapter, but they worked so well in my sporking of chapter 35, part 1, that I made some for this chapter, also. First, take a look at how Rowling portrays the torture of Xeno Lovegood in chapter 21. Everyone’s actions and reactions are detailed, and separate assaults on a particular page are designated by number in the Descriptions and Reactions columns. Page numbers refer to the American Scholastic hardcover edition of DH.

Page NumberTimes Xeno-Related Action MentionedDescription of Words and ActionsXeno's ReactionsTrio's Reactions
4204
1) “There was a bang and a scream of pain from Xenophilius.”
2) “another bang, another squeal”
3) bang
4) bang
1) scream
2) squeal
3) none
4) none
none mentioned
42131) “...there was a volley of bangs interspersed with squeals of agony from Xenophilius”
2) Xeno sobs while speaking
3) “Xenophilius gave a wail of fear and despair.”
1) repeated squeals of agony
2) sobbing
3) wailing
none mentioned
42251) Xeno tries to climb the stairs.
2) Xeno draws nearer.
3) He’s feet away.
4) He tries to shift more debris.
5) His face appears before them.
none mentioned1) Harry says they have to leave. The Hs climb over debris.
2) Hermione frees Ron.
3) She tells Ron and Harry what to do.
4) She continues to give orders.
5) She Obliviates Xeno and makes the floor collapse under them all.


Notice the way Xeno reacts to being tortured: He is described as screaming after the first attack. Then he squeals repeatedly, although the second mention of him squealing is dismissed with the phrase, “repeated squeals of agony.” Note that he is described as screaming only once; the rest of the time he squeals, which makes him sound more like a nonhuman animal (a traitorous pig, maybe?) than a human. Next he sobs, and finally, he gives “a wail of fear and despair,” maybe because he’s realized, as terri_testing has asserted, that he’s not going to get out of this encounter alive.

Rowling minimizes the terrible suffering of this old man in two ways: First, she compresses several vicious attacks into one short phrase: “...there was a volley of bangs interspersed with squeals.” The dictionary in my computer defines volley as “a number of bullets, arrows, or other projectiles discharged at one time.” The thesaurus lists the following as some of volley’s synonyms: barrage, bombardment, fusillade, hail, shower, deluge, torrent. In other words, Xeno was cursed at least several times in quick succession, and possibly dozens of times. Hundreds of times is unlikely, given the short time span, but it’s not out of the question. Anyone who doubts these assertions should consider how quickly it’s possible to get soaked in a shower, deluge, or torrent of water. Or watch the title characters’ death scene from the 1967 movie Bonnie and Clyde. That’s what a barrage, bombardment, fusillade, or hail of bullets looks like. Imagine Xeno being cursed even half that many times, half that quickly. It looks a whole lot worse than Rowling makes it sound, doesn’t it?

Notice also that, although he is referred to as being hurt seven times, he only reacts vocally five times. This makes it appear he was not seriously injured by two of those curses. It’s also possible he was briefly knocked unconscious from the assaults and then revived. This would mean he was hurt worse in those instances than in the others, but since the scene is told from the point of view of the Hs, who didn’t see what was happening (and didn’t care, either), we can’t be sure what occurred.

That’s disgusting enough, but it actually gets worse. Now look at the elaborate, loving detail Rowling lavishes on Hermione’s sufferings in this chapter.

Page NumberTimes Hermione-Related Action MentionedDescription of Words and ActionsHermione's ReactionsRon and Harry's Reactions
4631“...there was a terrible, drawn-out scream from directly above them.”“terrible, drawn-out scream” Ron bellows,
“HERMIONE!” and starts to “writhe and struggle against the ropes” that tie him and Harry together.
4645 3) “Hermione screamed again....”scream1) Ron yells, “HERMIONE!” three times in reaction to scream on 463
2) Harry tells Ron to be quiet so they can plan.
3) Ron bellows her name twice more when she screams again.
4) Bellatrix questions her again about the sword.
4654 1) Hermione says, “we found it--we found it--PLEASE!” and screams again.
2) Bella questions H further; “another terrible scream.”
3) Bella threatens to “run H through” with her knife.
1) scream
2) “another terrible scream”
3) none listed
1) Ron struggles some more.
2) Ron bellows her name again.
3) none listed
46671) H screams again.
2) Bella questions her more and Cruciates her.
3) H screams.
1) screams again
2) “Hermione’s screams echoed off the walls upstairs.”
3) “Hermione was screaming worse than ever.”
1) “The sound went through Harry like physical pain.” He runs around the cellar looking for a way out.
2) Ron half sobs and pounds the walls with his fists. Harry “in utter desperation” gropes in his neck pouch for the two-way mirror.
3) Ron bellows her name twice more.
4671 Bella questions H again. H sobs as she says the sword is fake. Harry tells Griphook to lie and say the sword’s fake.
4681 H screams as she’s “being tortured again.”“An awful scream drowned out Harry’s words: Hermione was being tortured again.” They continue to work with Dobby to escape.
4691H screams again.“Hermione screamed again.” Harry forces himself to come out of his Voldie-vision at her scream.
47121) H screams again.
2) She’s on the floor.
1) “Hermione gave a dreadful scream...”
2) H is on the floor at Bella’s feet. “She was barely stirring.”
1) none mentioned
2) They watch and wait for a good time to attack.
4724 1) Bella tells Fenrir to take “the Mudblood.”
2) Harry and Ron attack.
3) Bella tells them to stop or H dies.
4) Harry and Ron pause.
1) none mentioned
2) none mentioned
3) none mentioned
4) Hermione seems to be unconscious.
1) Ron bellows, “NOOOOOOOOOOOO!”
2) H and R attack.
3) They pause.


So the multiple episodes of Xeno’s torturing are blown off with just a few brief mentions that contain no detailed descriptions of how he was injured or how badly, let alone what his screams sounded like. The DEs hurt him at least as many times as Bella hurts Hermione, and over a shorter period, but his torture is virtually shrugged off by the narrator, being dismissed by only a few brief mentions over just one-and-a-half pages. By contrast, Bella’s torture of Hermione goes on for six pages, with each assault and each scream described in detail, and is briefly described on three other pages. There are nine attacks altogether, judging by the number of screams.

Look also at how Rowling structures these scenes. First, take Hermione and Bella: (1) Bella yells her questions. (2) She cuts Hermione. (3) Hermione screams. In other words, there is a loud sound, then silence, then another loud sound. Like rests in music, those silent pauses between the vocalizations put the focus on the sounds that come after the pauses, i.e., Hermione’s screams. Rowling increases the emphasis in two other ways: (1) Her histrionic descriptions of the screams, e. g., “Hermione’s screams echoed off the walls upstairs.”(2) Her equally histrionic descriptions of Harry and Ron's reactions, e.g., Ron repeatedly bellowing "HERMIONE!", and “The sound went through Harry like physical pain.” There are also several descriptions of their frantic efforts to escape the cellar and assist Hermione.

Contrast that with chapter 21, when the DEs attacked Xeno Lovegood: (1) A DE yells a question. (2) There is a loud “bang” as a curse is fired. (3) Xeno shrieks. By having a yelled question, then a “bang,” then a scream, the loud noises all run together, which implies they’re all equally important. This takes the focus off the torture of an innocent man and gives equal weight to his torturers’ interrogation of him--which is about the Trio. So even when a harmless old man is being tortured, what really matters is not the victim’s suffering, but the danger the interrogation poses to Rowling’s self-inserts (and sidekick)--two of whom are torturers themselves! (Remember Harry’s tormenting of Filch. Come to think of it, Rowling seems to have a thing for defenseless old men being tortured. I wonder if that’s another expression of her hostility towards her father?)

This was also not the first time Lovegood was attacked by the DEs. It was the third time in as many weeks. It isn’t stated outright that he was harmed on the other two occasions, but only a fool would believe the DEs didn’t torture him when he disappointed them on their previous visits. In addition, Xeno is an old man, not a healthy teenager. That alone makes it worse to torture him than Hermione.

Rowling’s own indifference to a minor character’s completely gratuitous pain is made explicit by the behavior of her “heroic” Hs: They have no reaction at all to any of the times Xeno is attacked, despite their not only being able to clearly hear his shrieks of agony, but also being close enough to render assistance to him. They don’t even talk about helping him. They just stand there listening, like Cletus the Slack-Jawed Yokel (the “village idiot” character on The Simpsons) trying to make conversation with Stephen Hawking at a cocktail party. They couldn’t care less about saving, protecting, or even helping this pathetic old man who is being tortured right under their noses! (Just like Dumbledore’s attitude towards the suffering baby in “King’s Cross,” come to think of it. There’s an excellent reason for that, as we’ll see in part 2 of that chapter.) They don’t wake up and start responding to the danger of the situation until they hear Xeno leading the DEs up the stairs to get them. In other words, it isn’t until their own asses are on the line that they bestir themselves to action--and then they only exert enough effort to save themselves, not Xeno.

Now, I expect Harry and Ron to react far more strongly to the torture of their friend than to that of someone they don’t know, and whom they regard as having betrayed them. That’s only natural. What is not natural is for any of the Trio to have no reaction at all to someone screaming in agony just a few yards/meters away. For them to feel nothing--no shock, no horror, no revulsion, no desire to help--is at best catatonic, and at worst psychopathic. These characters are not just monumentally selfish; they also seem to be lacking the most basic of human instincts for the care and protection of members of their own species. They are, well, freaks.

They are also gutless. What was it Harry told himself while trying to work up the nerve to jump into the frozen pool? Oh, yeah: “Their daring, nerve, and chivalry set Gryffindors apart.” And what was it James boasted about Gryffindor on that first train ride to Hogwarts? “Gryffindor, where dwell the brave of heart.”

Coulda fooled me.

Returning to Bella’s interrogation of Hermione, I know I’m supposed to be all high-minded and aver, “Torture is always wrong,” but I just can’t get worked up in this case. I also know I’m supposed to see this as an innocent, noble young girl being horribly tormented by a sadistic fiend, but after cataloguing Hermione’s own crimes earlier, I see this as one violent, ruthless criminal abusing another. It reminds me of a book by Kathy Reichs called Deadly Decisions, about a conflict between biker gangs in Canada. The attitude of most of the respectable citizens in the story was, “So what? They’re cleaning up the country by killing each other.” That’s how I feel about Bella torturing Hermione. In fact, when I read this chapter, I thought, “IT’S KARMA, BABY! I’M JUST SORRY YOUR ROTTEN LITTLE FRIENDS DIDN’T GET THEIRS, TOO!”

Back to the story:

I love the way Ron and Hermione compete as loudmouths, with her screaming loudly enough for the sound to echo off the walls, and him bellowing her name each time she screams. I’m really surprised nobody bellowed back, “SHUT THE FUCK UP, RON! YOU’RE DEAFENING US!”

While Ron is uselessly screaming, Luna is making herself useful by using a rusty nail to cut through the ropes binding the prisoners. Ron stops yelling long enough to bring out his Deluminator, which has some lights from their tent stored in it. Harry gets out his magic mirror and, seeing the blue eye in it again, tells where they are and demands help.

Draco is ordered to bring Griphook upstairs to look at the sword and authenticate it. Little does Draco know that Harry has persuaded the goblin to proclaim sword a fake even if it’s not.

Dobby suddenly appears and Apparates Luna, Dean, and Ollivander to Shell Cottage. I thought one had to be familiar with one’s destination to Apparate there, and Dobby’s never been to Bill’s house. Either Rowling’s screwed up again, or this is another difference between elves and humans regarding the rules of Apparition.

Lucius hears the crack of Apparition and orders Pettigrew to investigate what’s going on in the cellar. Ron and Harry grab Peter, and Ron takes his wand. Peter’s first impulse is to strangle Harry with his awesome silver hand, his master’s wishes be damned, but Harry reminds Pettigrew he owes Harry a life debt for saving him back in PoA. Just as if this were a 1950s B-horror movie, the hand gets angry at Peter’s merciful act and turns on him, strangling him instead. All those fan theories about how the hand would be used against Remus, and that were much cooler than anything in the actual book, bite the dust along with Peter.

Although Ron and Harry try to save Pettigrew, they are unsuccessful. They drop his body and head upstairs to rescue Hermione. They see her collapsed on the floor at Bella’s feet, while Griphook examines the sword. He conveniently declares it a fake and gets slashed in the face and kicked by Bella for his trouble. She then calls Voldemort and offers Hermione to Fenrir.

Ron completely blows the element of surprise--stupid Gryffindor! he could use some Slytherin subtlety--by screaming, “NOOOOOOOOOOOO!” and charging into the room, wand a-blazing. Bella loses her wand, which Harry grabs, but she gains Hermione and holds a knife to her throat, which she uses to force Ron and Harry to surrender.

Dobby exhibits both Gryffindor foolhardiness and Slytherin dramatics by making the crystal chandelier drop onto Bella, Hermione, and Griphook. Bella drops Hermione and leaps to the side, but the light fixture lands on the girl and the goblin.

As Ron rescues his girlfriend, Harry grabs the three wands Draco’s holding and Stupefies Greyback. Narcissa rescues Draco, who has cuts all over his face from the flying, broken crystals, and Bella screams at Dobby, calling him a traitor. Dobby Apparates out with the Trio, just as Bella throws her knife at him. They land at Shell Cottage, just in time for Dobby to die in front of Harry from Bella’s knife.

While all this was going on, Harry’s Voldie-vision allowed him to tune into the Dull Lord tracking down, questioning, and killing Gregorovitch. Although Harry manfully fought against the mental contact, he conveniently received just enough information to move the story forward.

Whew! That chapter was a long one--29 pages of histrionics and screaming. On the plus side, we are now fewer than 300 pages from the end of the book. Hang on, people! We can make it!

Happy New Year, everyone!

Date: 2014-01-06 09:54 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dracasadiablo.livejournal.com
Just to clarify; I don't think that if Harry or Ron were the one being tortured that would have made it okay.
Torture (even if fictional) bothers me regardless of who's being tortured.

The point I was trying to make with "it's the girl being tortured" is; that is same old crap.
Female character is threatened with sexual violence, the one enduring torture porn, the one seen as a "week link", the one boys must rescue (never mind that they were saved by Luna, Doby and incredibly stupid plot hole silver arm) . . .

Seriously, a lot of times we see (or are told about) somebody being tortured (in any way) it's a female character (Lily begging for Harry's life, Charity Burbage begging for her life, Alice Longbottom tortured into insanity, Myrtle the first killed student / child we read about even if we aren't shown her death or even distressingly, expected to feel sorry for, Marietta and her pain, Umbridge and her trauma at the hands of the centaurs, Hermione's torture here).
When it's a male character it's handled much differently. They either die in some heroic (well, if they are "good") way or they aren't even aware of what killed them. No begging for them. Even DD's suicide by Snape was shown differently.
Torture? Harry shrugs off Crucio like it's nothing. It hurts him but he's not afraid. Torture quill? Who cares that's mutilating his hand, his pride and principles are more important!

Idk, there's just somthign about the way JKR writes genders and torture / death that bothers me.

Date: 2014-01-07 02:42 am (UTC)
sunnyskywalker: Young Beru Lars from Attack of the Clones; text "Sunnyskywalker" (spandex jackets)
From: [personal profile] sunnyskywalker
Now I'm trying to think of a male character who is made helpless and begs like this and isn't portrayed as contemptible. There's, uh, Wormtail? Young Sev sitting outside the Gryffindor common room door is I guess supposed to be at least partly a good sign, but mainly because he's recognizing that Lily Is Good and trying to side with Team Good - he's still portrayed as a bit pathetic in all his scenes at that age (acting like a kicked puppy, a follower to whichever friend he's around at the moment, plus of course all the loving descriptions of his greasy hair and aging underwear). Um. Draco maybe? Or does he just gibber in fear back in the Forbidden Forest in year 1?

How many other male characters are broken and/or grovel and beg?

Date: 2014-01-07 03:43 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dracasadiablo.livejournal.com
I can't think of any male "good" characters or any male characters that we aren't supposed to see as weak or pathetic reduced to begging.

Draco is always written as a pathetic coward and definitively not as somebody we should feel sorry for.

No, IIRC, only female characters get to be tortured in number different ways.

Date: 2014-01-07 09:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madderbrad.livejournal.com
The point I was trying to make with "it's the girl being tortured" is; that is same old crap.

I don't think there's any need to go on a search mission for deep hidden reasons why Hermione was tortured:
    “Wait,” said Bellatrix sharply. “All except. . . . except for the Mudblood.” Greyback gave a grunt of pleasure.

    ...

    “If she dies under questioning, I’ll take you next,” she said. “Blood traitor is next to Mudblood in my book."
Hermione was picked because she's a Muggle Born, the one of the Trio with the biggest target on her back. With Public Enemy #1 Harry out of the running - "the Dark Lord wishes to dispose of Potter himself" - Hermione was the next most hated person, and the least respected.

Idk, there's just somthign about the way JKR writes genders and torture / death that bothers me.

I don't think there's enough 'torture' in the series to form a conclusion. Snape isn't tortured, he's just killed. Harry's experience of the Cruciatus Curse in book 4 is no picnic either.

I've got a gripe about Rowling's writing gender along another axis ... she lets the girls get away with much more (violence) than the boys. Ginny cursing Smith, assaulting Smith, Hermione slapping Draco, sending killer canaries at Ron ... with no reprisals. Girls can do that sort of thing in safety, don't you know. But if a *boy* tried ...
Edited Date: 2014-01-07 09:30 am (UTC)

Date: 2014-01-07 07:12 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dracasadiablo.livejournal.com
Hermione was picked because she's a Muggle Born, the one of the Trio with the biggest target on her back. With Public Enemy #1 Harry out of the running - "the Dark Lord wishes to dispose of Potter himself" - Hermione was the next most hated person, and the least respected.

Problem is; that doesn't make any sense.
Sure, as far as pureblood fanatics are concerned mudbloods are vermin to be killed off.
But let consider Bellatrix. All her human victims (that we know of) are either purebloods (Longbottoms, Sirius and she try to kill Ginny) or part of a personal vendetta (Sirius, Tonks and Lupin). Do we ever see her really hunt "mudbloods"?
IIRC, She never even focused on Hermione before. In Department of Mysteries she went after Harry and Nevile (another pureblood and a good way to make him as insane as his parents).
I may well be wrong, but to me it looks like she considered "blood traitor" much worse thing then "mudblood".

Also, at the beginning of this book, Voldy publicly shames her with talk of Tonks and Lupin. She is ashamed and angry and eager to end the stain on her family honor.
Chances are she hadn't forgotten about that. And there's a good chance she sees Andromeda as the one guilty for the dishonor of a Black "dirtying" herself with a werewolf. If Andromeda hadn't been a blood traitor and made a child with a "filthy mudblood" the shame of a freak cousin and werewolf in-law wouldn't have happened.

And now look at this chapter. We have Bellatrix, Harry (Half-blood), Ron (Pureblood), Hermione (mudblood) and Greyback (werewolf). It nicely mirrors Andromeda (pureblood), Tonks (mudblood), Nymphadora (Half-blood) and Lupin (werewolf).
It all should just add more fire to Bellatrix's hate of blood traitors.

Long story short; to me it would have made much more sense if she have killed Hermione outright or given her to Greyback (yes, I know JKR was never going to write that) and that (if she really can't hurt Harry, even if I don't see why not. Voldy said that he will be the one to kill him. Not that nobody is to hurt him at all. It's not like Harry's a collectible trading card. "Here to you, Oh Dark Lord, we bring you Harry Potter, the first edition still in his original packaging") she tortured Ron.

Harry's experience of the Cruciatus Curse in book 4 is no picnic either.
Consider how it's written. In fact let us compare Harry's reactions to blood quill and Cruciatus and Hermione's at being cut with a knife and subjected to Cruciatus.

HP: Made to carve "I must not tell lies" over and over in his flash. It hurts him, it's done over and over for days but he doesn't cry out and takes it stoically.
HG: Had "mudblood" carved into her skin (she wasn't stabbed with the knife so it's comparable to the blood quill) and she gives "terrible, drawn-out scream(s)" during it.

HP: Subjected to few bouts of Cruciatus Curse. After it was able to "duel".
HG: Subjected to few bouts of Cruciatus Curse. After it was "barely stirring" / "unconscious".

HP: A deus ex machina happens (wands connecting), Harry gets help (shades of the killed), Harry gets away.
HG: A deus ex machina happens (silver hand), Harry gets help (Luna and Dobby), Hermione is made into a human shield and a hostage, Harry saves her, they get away.

I've got a gripe about Rowling's writing gender along another axis ... she lets the girls get away with much more (violence) than the boys.
Yes, JKR thinks that female on male violence is funny. But she also thinks that weakness are a female thing. And that begging, crying and screaming is something only girls do.
That is a problem.

Date: 2014-01-07 09:21 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jana-ch.livejournal.com
Carving "mudblood" on Hermione's arm is film canon, not book canon. Aren't we comparing two torture incidents in the book? Or have we moved on?

By the way, I particularly dislike the film's version of Hermione's torture because it looks like Bellatrix is raping her. Did someone say "torture porn"?

Date: 2014-01-07 09:43 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] dracasadiablo.livejournal.com
Is it?
My mistake then. Apologizes, I've read the last book only once. The details have started to get confusing. I did check the "mudblood" thing on HP wiki but they have it listed there as canon. That's why I thought it happened in the books too.

And I agree. Movie took the girl on girl torture porn and went wild with it. That scene definitively looks like Bellatrix is raping her.

Date: 2014-01-08 02:50 am (UTC)
sunnyskywalker: Young Beru Lars from Attack of the Clones; text "Sunnyskywalker" (spandex jackets)
From: [personal profile] sunnyskywalker
Yes, JKR thinks that female on male violence is funny. But she also thinks that weakness are a female thing. And that begging, crying and screaming is something only girls do.

I think that's a key point - the imbalance in which "good" characters are made (by JKR) to beg and the imbalance in how female-on-male violence vs. male-on-female is portrayed both spring from JKR's half-baked notion of women as essentially weaker. Women hurting men? Slapstick comedy or otherwise no big deal, because it's not like they could do real harm the way a more powerful man would, and besides the men are Tough and so won't suffer as much as the poor girls. Women begging? Not a huge mark against them like it would be for a tough manly man who doesn't cry at little things like his flesh getting cut up - they're doing their best within their limitations, brave dears. Men who beg? Well, now, they're refusing to live up to their potential and being all girly, which is beneath them!

Not that I think she consciously intended this. She obviously tried not to, at least at certain flagged points and in interviews and whatnot where she'd spin some half-thought-out idea that things aren't so unequal in the WW. It's just that the narrative was too deeply embedded in her mind, probably, and she wasn't capable of seeing how that influenced her story. Or didn't have time, or just isn't entirely consistent in her beliefs like a lot of people are. And it leads to some really ugly implications.

Of course she also thinks a lot of violence is funny, period, including some of the male-on-male violence, so there's more than one ugly notion at work here. What a mess.

Date: 2014-01-07 07:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merrymelody.livejournal.com
she lets the girls get away with much more (violence) than the boys

To be fair, she lets the Gryffindor boys get away with plenty of violence on other boys, while still describing how brave and pure they are.

But yeah, she does kind of present female-on-male violence as funny (although I wouldn't see that as her favouring women - there's plenty of misogyny in the series! - so much as patronising them.

Even in a world where you'd think gender might be differently approached, since according to her, the wizarding world is one of sexual equality; it's surprisingly backward - it took her what, six books to describe a mother with a job?

And despite her designing a world where you'd think the physical dominance of men would be inconsequential, as each gender has magical strength, her world building skills mean it's basically our world but in line with her views.

So it's spunky and brave for a girl to hurt a guy, but also comical and usually a sign she's hysterical; but certainly not a threat on the same level as a male assault.

Date: 2014-01-12 03:54 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] madderbrad.livejournal.com
To be fair, she lets the Gryffindor boys get away with plenty of violence on other boys, while still describing how brave and pure they are.

But the non-Gryffindor boys fight back, I think. Draco fights back - even beat Harry once. Snape was - not sure where I'm getting this from, maybe I'm wrong? - an even match for the Marauders?

So there's an overall pervasive theme of 'but the Gryffindors are on the side of the angels', maybe, but if the boys (on either side) are attacked they fight back.

Something that just isn't allowed with the girl-versus-boy scenes. The boys just take it. Rowling doesn't let even a hint of the possibility of the boy striking back (please please please hit Ginny back!!! :-)) surface.

And despite her designing a world where you'd think the physical dominance of men would be inconsequential, as each gender has magical strength, her world building skills mean it's basically our world but in line with her views.

When Rowling was *thinking* about the coarse plot elements she was careful to keep women equal with men. Bellatrix is deadly. Only super-momma Molly can take her on. Amelia Bones is police boss. And so forth.

But yeah, when it comes to the fine detail, you're right - Rowling's own views/values surface. Those of an author born in the 60s, and those of the culture/times in which she was raised. BOYS JUST DON'T HIT GIRLS EVAH. Or, put another way, 'girls can get away with attacking boys'.

Probably more because Rowling-the-person just doesn't even countenance the possibility of it being any other way. Even if it ends up looking patronising as well.

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