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deathtocapslockOr, Severus Snape and the Stealer of Souls
“I know it’s all getting away, and it comes to me as no surprise:
I know what’s coming to me is never going to arrive.”
Trent Reznor (Nine Inch Nails), “Last”
The theme song for this installment is one of my favorites from Nine Inch Nails, a thrash metal classic called, “Happiness in Slavery,” written by Trent Reznor.
SLAVE SCREAMS
He thinks he knows what he wants
SLAVE SCREAMS
Thinks he has something to say
SLAVE SCREAMS
He hears but doesn’t want to listen
SLAVE SCREAMS
He’s being beat into submission
Don’t open your eyes,
You won’t like what you see.
The devils of truth
Steal the souls of the free.
Don’t open your eyes.
Take it from me.
I have found
You can find
Happiness in slavery.
SLAVE SCREAMS
He spends his life learning conformity
SLAVE SCREAMS
He claims he has his own identity
SLAVE SCREAMS
He’s gonna cause the system to fall
SLAVE SCREAMS
But he’s glad to be chained to that wall
Don’t open your eyes,
You won’t like what you see.
The blind have been
Blessed with security.
Don’t open your eyes.
Take it from me.
I have found
You can find
Happiness in slavery.
I don’t know who I am.
I don’t know where I’ve been.
Human junk,
Just words and so much skin.
Stick my hands through the cage
Of this endless routine.
Just some flesh caught in
This big, broken machine.
Happiness (SLAVERY)
Happiness controls you.
Happiness, it controls you.
(Sniff)
Whenever I read the hilltop scene between Scummywhore and Severus, I am reminded of the beginning of the Doors song, “The Soft Parade.” Dumbledore is the “god” of this universe, and Snape is the pathetic, broken petitioner begging for mercy. In fact, the scene and the song suit each other so perfectly, I strongly recommend listening to the first 90 seconds of the song (but no more) before reading further. It’ll put you in the proper mood for what comes after it. Jim Morrison’s rich, resonant baritone--surely the most beautiful voice in all of rock and roll--is even similar to both the voice of Alan Rickman and the voice fanfic writers usually give to Severus.
(Declared in a raised voice)
When I was back there in seminary school
There was a person there
Who put forth the proposition
That you can petition the Lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
Petition the lord with prayer
(Screamed at the top of his lungs)
YOU CANNOT PETITION THE LORD WITH PRAYER!
(Singing)
Can you give me sanctuary?
I must find a place to hide,
A place for me to hide.
Can you find me soft asylum?
I can't make it any more.
The Man is at the door.
I will quote the hilltop scene in full because it is one of the best in the entire book, or series, for that matter. But not for the reason Rowling and her dittoheads think.
...[H]e stood on a hilltop, forlorn and cold in the darkness, the wind whistling through the branches of a few leafless trees. The adult Snape was panting, turning on the spot, his wand gripped tightly in his hand, waiting for something or for someone....His fear infected Harry too, even though he knew he could not be harmed, and he looked over his shoulder, wondering what it was that Snape was waiting for--
Then a blinding, jagged jet of white light flew through the air: Harry thought of lightning, but Snape had dropped to his knees and his wand had flown out of his hand.
“Don’t kill me!”
“That was not my intention.”
Any sound of Dumbledore Apparating had been drowned by the sound of the wind in the branches. He stood before Snape with his robes whipping around him, and his face was illuminated from below in the light cast by his wand.
“Well, Severus? What message does Lord Voldemort have for me?”
“No--no message--I’m here on my own account!”
Snape was wringing his hands: He looked a little mad, with his straggling black hair flying around him.
“I--I come with a warning--no, a request--please--”
Dumbledore flicked his wand. Though leaves and branches still flew through the night air around them, silence fell on the spot where he and Snape faced each other.
“What request could a Death Eater make of me?”
“The--the prophecy...the prediction...Trelawney...”
“Ah, yes,” said Dumbledore. “How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?”
“Everything--everything I heard!” said Snape. “That is why--it is for that reason--he thinks it means Lily Evans!”
“The prophecy did not refer to a woman,” said Dumbledore. “It spoke of a boy born at the end of July--”
“You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down--kill them all--”
“If she means so much to you,” said Dumbledore, “surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?”
“I have--I have asked him--”
“You disgust me,” said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. Snape seemed to shrink a little. “You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?”
Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.
“Hide them all, then,” he croaked. “Keep her--them--safe. Please.”
“And what will you give me in return, Severus?”
“In--in return?” Snape gaped at Dumbledore, and Harry expected him to protest, but after a long moment he said, “Anything.”
I have read hundreds of horror stories over approximately 50 years. This scene reads like a horror story. Look at all classic horror tropes: the cold, windy, spooky setting; the pathetic terror and groveling of the supplicant; the light shining on the face of the “donor;” the cold ruthlessness, casual cruelty, complete indifference, and utter selfishness of the “donor” towards not just the supplicant, but everyone and everything else. People have a hell of a lot of nerve judging Severus Snape as wanting in this scene. He is Mahatma Gandhi compared to Albus Dumbledore.
And who is Albus Dumbledore? This entire scene is reminiscent of another classic horror trope: the desperate man begging for some great boon from Satan in exchange for his soul. J K Rowling is right when she perceives Dumbledore to be godlike. He is. Just not in the way she thinks.
This is another scene that has to be dissected lie by lie. I’ll give both my commentary and (when appropriate) what I believe the characters are thinking. Gird your loins, dear readers.
Why did they agree to meet in this forbidding setting? Was there nowhere indoors, or at least sheltered, they could have talked? I think Dumbledore chose this place for the main, if not the sole, purpose of further intimidating Snape. Loneliness, discomfort, fear, and unfamiliarity are all very effective brainwashing tools.
The old sadist makes an entrance that is deliberately designed to be as frightening and dramatic as possible by imitating a bolt of lightning. This is also a not-so-subtle way of evoking the “judgment of God” trope in both Snape and the reader’s minds. Scummywhore immediately disarms Snape; I’m not buying Snape dropped his wand because he was gripping it too tightly for that. Besides, it flew out of his hand, which strongly implies Expelliarmus was used. All this drama might make sense, except the two are supposed be there under a truce. They wouldn’t be meeting otherwise. This disarming is really just a further way for Dumbledore to degrade Snape.
Severus is clearly terrified--not just for Lily, but for himself, or the first words out of his mouth would not be a plea to spare him. There would also be no need to beg for his life if Dumbledore were really “the epitome of goodness” Rowling insists he is. Imagine this scene with Dumbledore replaced by Gandhi, Mother Teresa, or Martin Luther King, Jr. You can’t, can you?
“Don’t kill me!”
Translation: “J. K. Rowling may believe you’re ‘the epitome of goodness,’ but I know better.”
“That was not my intention.”
Dumbledore doesn’t say something benign such as, “Of course I’m not going to kill you,” or even a curt, “Certainly not.” He says, “That was not my intention.” But we all do things we don’t intend, don’t we? A slight accident with a wand and--oopsie!--one dead Death Eater. Too bad, so sad. Besides, just because it’s not the old man’s intention at the beginning of their conversation doesn’t mean he won’t change his mind five minutes later. Severus has every reason to spend this whole scene cowering in terror.
Dumbledore continues the intimidation tactics by standing there looking down at Severus--thus signifying both contempt and superiority--while lighting his face from below with his wand. We’ve all seen people sitting around a campfire, telling scary stories with a flashlight illuminating their faces, on TV or in the movies, if not in person. A lone face looming out of the darkness is frightening on a deep, primal level. It reminds our reptilian and mammalian brains of a predator sneaking up on us at night, not revealing itself until it’s on top of us--and then it’s too late to escape.
“Well, Severus? What message does Lord Voldemort have for me?”
Translation: “You’re just a need-gratifying object. You can’t do anything unless somebody else gives you orders.”
“No--no message--I’m here on my own account!”
Translation: “I really do have a separate identity and will, even if you’ve never acknowledged it.”
Snape was wringing his hands: He looked a little mad, with his straggling black hair flying around him.
Of course, Dumbledore does not look “a little mad” with his straggling white hair flying around him. And when Ginny’s hair flies around, that proves how sexy, spunky, and all-around awesome she is. Yes, in the Potterverse, even hair is prejudiced in favor of Gryffindors. This is Rowling’s way of degrading Snape just a little bit more.
“I--I come with a warning--no, a request--please--”
Translation: “I know you’re a selfish arsehole, but I’m desperate, and I’ve got nobody else to turn to. Please be decent, just this once.” In this line and most of his other lines, we can see Severus is almost incoherent with terror and anxiety.
Dumbledore flicked his wand. Though leaves and branches still flew through the night air around them, silence fell on the spot where he and Snape faced each other.
Having succeeded in terrorizing the “evil DE” into groveling submission, Scummywhore can now afford to make them both more comfortable by eliminating the cold wind.
“What request could a Death Eater make of me?”
Translation: “Ooh, look how self-righteous I am. The only reason you became a Death Eater is because I didn’t give a shit about protecting you from the little Gryffindor pets I was brainwashing to be my followers. Now, after making it impossible for you to join the Order because you wouldn’t have been safe even there, let alone welcome, I assert my right to look down on you for being driven into the arms of Voldemort. Sucks to be disposable like you, doesn’t it?”
“The--the prophecy...the prediction...Trelawney...”
“Ah, yes,” said Dumbledore. “How much did you relay to Lord Voldemort?”
Excuse me? What? The? FUCK?
Look how blasè Dumbledore is about this prophecy that puts three of his people in mortal danger, including the very person who is vital to defeating the enemy commander. He clearly couldn’t care less about any of them. For all the concern he displays here, he might as well be saying, “Oh, yeah, I’m going to have to move the birthday party indoors because it’s supposed to rain that day.”
Dumbledore is also admitting that he knew Severus had told Voldemort about the prophecy! Think about that: The commander of one side knew an enemy agent was conveying vital information to the enemy commander, and he allowed him to do it! Rowling loves to make a Big Stinking Deal about how her gangland rumble in these books is just like World War II, so let’s hold her to that comparison. Imagine if a Nazi agent had found out about the D-Day plans. Now, try, just try, to imagine Dwight Eisenhower allowing that agent to run back to Hitler and tell him all about those plans. You can’t do that either, can you?
“Everything--everything I heard!” said Snape. “That is why--it is for that reason--he thinks it means Lily Evans!”
Snape haters love to make another Big Stinking Deal about the fact Severus refers to “Lily Evans” rather than “Lily Potter.” They probably also like to argue about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Lily was an Evans far longer than she was a Potter. Furthermore, Severus knew her for seven years when she was an Evans; he never knew her as a Potter. It’s natural for him to slip and refer to her by her maiden name. Is the slip also indicative of his resistance to her having married James? Quite possibly. I’m merely pointing out there are several other good reasons for him to call her by her maiden name.
“The prophecy did not refer to a woman,” said Dumbledore. “It spoke of a boy born at the end of July--”
As others have noted, the prophecy says nothing of the kind. It refers to “one” who was “born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies.” That could refer to a person of any age or sex. Actually, in this universe, the prophecy might not refer to a human at all. It could just as easily mean a goblin, a centaur, a dragon, a house elf, or any number of other creatures.
Think what a world of fanfics that possibility opens: What if the prophesied savior turned out to be a house elf who’d been so broken down by servitude it was incapable of fighting Voldemort? After all, the Dull Lord is still technically human, and house elves aren’t allowed to harm humans. What a last laugh Hermione would have over that! It might really be her last laugh, too, if the savior was killed and Voldemort went to town on the mudbloods.
Or maybe the savior was a hedgehog McGonagall used in her Transfiguration classes. Too bad it was killed by an incompetent second year student who was unable to return it to its animal state after changing it into a pincushion.
And isn’t it sad Buckbeak was executed by Macnair before it was discovered the prophecy referred to a hippogriff? Boy, is Fudge’s face red!
For those who want to object none of those creatures could have had parents who “defied” the Dull Lord, I would remind them that Rowling has said “defying” Voldemort could mean the slightest resistance, so anything from fighting the DEs in battle to refusing Voldy’s dinner invitation would qualify. If the house elf’s parents were free, like Dobby, they could easily defy him. (Imagine Dobby vs. Voldemort! They’re both so annoying, who would you root for?) A hedgehog could have bitten Voldemort, and hippogriffs are punctilious about demanding respect from others. If the savior were a cat, well, they defy people all the time!
Oh, wow. What if the savior were Mrs. Norris? What if she was the cat Lily referred to in her letter to Sirius, and Filch had adopted her after the Potters were killed? I just love the thought of all those wizards who’ve treated Filch and his cat like garbage through the years having to crawl to them, begging for forgiveness, promising anything, anything, if she’ll just save them all from Voldemort. The only one Filch might listen to is Severus because he’s the only wizard who’s treated Filch decently. That would also give Severus leverage to extort a plethora of concessions for himself from Scummywhore and the Ministry. I’m cackling fiendishly just imagining that.
“You know what I mean! He thinks it means her son, he is going to hunt her down--kill them all--”
Translation: “Quit splitting hairs, you arsehole! The kid’s just a baby! Of course if Voldemort goes after the kid, he’ll have to go through the parents! What’s it matter whom I’m referring to specifically, when the whole family is in danger?”
Also note Severus says Voldy is going to “kill them all.” Snape haters like to overlook this, but it indicates he’s concerned about at least Lily and Harry, if not James. If Severus is not concerned about James, so what? There’s no reason he should be. James is the evil bastard who tortured him relentlessly for seven years, completely without provocation, and helped to drive away the only friend Severus ever had. Only a complete fool could believe James would care about Severus--or any of James’s victims--in the same circumstances.
“If she means so much to you,” said Dumbledore, “surely Lord Voldemort will spare her? Could you not ask for mercy for the mother, in exchange for the son?”
This is a false choice, and Scummywhore knows it. He is perfectly well aware how evil Voldemort is. Hell, he helped teach him to be evil! Mercy is not in Voldy’s vocabulary. Scummy also knows Voldy doesn’t care about his followers (any more than Scummy cares about his), so he’d be extremely unlikely to make a bargain like the one Scummy’s suggesting. The fact he did make it is just more ludicrous authorial fiat.
“I have--I have asked him--”
We don’t know what Snape asked Voldemort because Scummywhore does not allow Snape to finish his sentence. Maybe he asked Voldemort to let the Potters leave the country, as long as they promised never to come back. Maybe he asked Voldy to wait until he had the complete prophecy before going after anybody, in case it didn’t refer to Harry at all. Maybe he asked Voldy to wait until Harry was an adult, and attacking him would be a fairer fight a fight more worthy of a wizard of his extraordinary power. But if Scummy allowed Snape to finish his sentence, that would admit the possibility Snape might say something reasonable, thus making it harder for Scummy to beat him down and act superior, so Snape can’t be allowed to speak.
“You disgust me,” said Dumbledore, and Harry had never heard so much contempt in his voice. Snape seemed to shrink a little.
Sure he disgusts you, you shithead. You’re putting words into his mouth, making him out to be something he’s not, then attacking your false image of him. Straw man, anyone?
Of course, Snape shrinks. He’s experienced nothing but abuse and neglect his entire life, and now, when he risks his life to ask for help, he’s being verbally abused again--by the very scumbag who forced him into this position! Who then has the unmitigated gall to act like he’s the morally superior one! Dumbassbore exhibits enough assholery in this one scene to provide an entire career to a proctologist.
“You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?”
This is more putting words into Snape’s mouth. Again, we don’t know what he wants because he has not been allowed to speak his piece!
Snape said nothing, but merely looked up at Dumbledore.
Translation: “Why won’t you let me talk? You agreed to see me, to hear what I had to say, but you’re not allowing me to say it! Then you’re condemning me for something I never said! I might as well keep my mouth shut, since you obviously prefer talking to yourself to hearing what I have to say.” Of course, this is a symptom of narcissism.
Snape haters like to point to his silence here as “evidence” he’s agreeing with Scummywhore. There’s enough fertilizer in that belief to supply every farm and garden in North America for a decade.
First of all, Severus is an introvert. They don’t think well in the moment when under stress. They’re the kind of people who always think of the perfect thing to say when it’s too late to say it. This is exacerbated by Snape’s abusive and neglectful background. People with such histories learn to keep their mouths shut as a self-protective measure, particularly when dealing with hostile authority figures. Add onto that the personal history between these two men: Snape knows entirely too well what it’s like to tell Dumbledore something important the old man doesn’t want to hear, only to have it ignored, such as, “Your Gryffindor pets are running around the countryside with their werewolf friend on full-moon nights.” Hell, he was almost killed by Dumbassbore’s favorites, saw the crime covered up, and then was forced to keep silent about it, as if he were the guilty party. For Snape to come begging to this man he has every reason to hate and fear is conclusive evidence of both his desperation and his need. It’s no wonder he can neither think clearly nor come up with clever replies to statements of such epic idiocy.
Snape’s silence is also a fine example of a form of instinctive behavior deeply rooted in the mammalian brain. I assume most of my readers have heard of the Western Hemisphere marsupial called an opossum. Opossums are among the most primitive of mammals, and their behaviors reflect that. A common method of protecting themselves when threatened is to collapse on the ground and “play dead.” This is an involuntary reaction similar and related to fainting. When Snape falls silent here, he is reacting with self-protective automaticity in the face of Dumbledore’s verbal attack. That is not my opinion. I saw a doctor on TV saying that’s what is happening when people go quiet and still in threatening situations such as this one.
“Hide them all, then,” he croaked. “Keep her--them--safe. Please.”
Translation: “All right, you arsehole. You obviously decided who I was and what I was going to say before I even showed up. You also are obviously not going to allow me to speak unless I say what you want to hear. So I’ll give you what you want. I’ll play the ‘evil DE’ and let you feel superior. I’ll do anything you want as long as you protect the family. That’s all I care about.”
“And what will you give me in return, Severus?”
Translation: “Hah! I’ve got you by the short hairs, and I know it. Now I can extort from you whatever I want.”
“In--in return?” Snape gaped at Dumbledore, and Harry expected him to protest, but after a long moment he said, “Anything.”
Translation: “You have to be kidding me. Why the hell should I give you anything? These are your people I’m asking you to protect! It’s your job to keep your soldiers from getting killed if you can! What are you, nuts? Why does everybody act like you’re so loving and compassionate, when you don’t even care about protecting the members of your precious Order?
“Oh, bloody hell. It’s obvious you’re not going to do anything to help unless I continue to give you what you want. So here it is: the deed to my soul. Now will you protect them?”
The answer is “no.”
In the next scene, Snape has just found out Lily is dead. It’s pure authorial contrivance that he cares, since she didn’t give him any reason to care in the last several years. What gets me is this exchange:
“I thought...you were going...to keep her...safe....”
“She and James put their faith in the wrong person,” said Dumbledore. “Rather like you, Severus....”
YES! THEY ALL DID! THAT “WRONG PERSON” WAS ALBUS DUMBLEDORE!
WHY IS THIS NEVER ACKNOWLEDGED?
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Date: 2014-11-12 01:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-11-12 03:17 am (UTC)Plus, as I pointed out in part one of my series Love Thine Enemy over on snapedom, Dumbledore's accusation of being willing to make an 'exchange' is specious nonsense. Severus CAN'T make any sort of exchange - he doesn't HAVE Harry's life to GIVE to Voldemort. No matter what Severus says or does, Voldemort will kill Harry - he already intends to, and Severus can't stop him. He's not faced here with a choice to step back and let Harry die when he could have saved him. The best option Harry has of surviving is what Severus is doing here: warning the one person who seems to stand a chance against Voldemort of the fucking situation. At risk to his own life.
no subject
Date: 2014-12-02 02:32 am (UTC)And it's actually only due to Snape that Harry DID live, since Voldemort had to give Lily a CHOICE in order for her to VOLUNTARILY lay down her life for her son. Otherwise, he would have just killed her the moment he barged into the bedroom, and there would have been no blood protection at all.
One wonders if he might have snapped out of some of his Voldemort-induced guilt complex if someone, anyone, had been there to point out that Lily may have still died, but at least his indirect intervention saved her son. An interesting premise...
no subject
Date: 2014-11-12 03:36 am (UTC)You brought out all the points so well. I loved your translations.
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Date: 2014-11-12 03:47 am (UTC)I'm not even talking about JKR or her die-hard fans. No, I'm talking about everybody else. And just how frightening is to see people so indoctrinated and brainwashed (by past 6 books) into believing in "DD the Benevolent" myth.
It really brings home how easy is for people (in RL) to get taken in by manipulators and predators.
Once people buy and accept the idea of somebody as good / kind / wise / whatever the manipulator is projecting they are ready to ignore evidence that shows their belief as false.
That's truly terrifying.
I would be prepared to bet that if we took this scene, changed the character's names and reworded is just so much to not make it immediately recognizable (but still left the actions in it unchanged) and then showed it to people; everybody would immediately peg DD-stand is as a villain.
Hell, that last exchange is a perfect example of something a stereotypical evil villain would say.
“She and James put their faith in the wrong person,” = Perfect thing to torture your current victim with and gloat over just how smart you were to get your past victims to believe you. With a added bonus of "I'm such a smart chess-master! Everything went as planned and I didn't even need to dirty my own hands over it!".
“Rather like you, Severus....” = and then you add this smug and terrible little threat at the end.
DD might as well be twirling his mustache or stroking a white cat during this!
Everything about it shouts, sings and dance "Look at me I'm evil!"
That could refer to a person of any age or sex. Actually, in this universe, the prophecy might not refer to a human at all.
At this point Harry is already born and DD is sure that he's the "one" so it could be argued that he is mentally equating "one" with "boy".
But I wonder. Somehow I very much doubt he ever considered that "the one" could be anything else but a wizard boy.
His prejudices would have made it impossible for him to consider other options.
It Goes Both Ways
Date: 2014-11-14 07:34 pm (UTC)You’re right: That's both true and terrifying. It also goes both ways. And what's really amazing is the paucity of "evidence" that's needed to convince people that a certain person is "good" or "bad."
My major literary fandom is Sherlock Holmes. It boasts the most intelligent, best-educated people of any fandom in the world. Yet I'm always astounded at the number of otherwise sensible, perceptive people who believe in that Moriarty-the-criminal-mastermind nonsense. Just because he is a major character in one story and is briefly mentioned in another ("The Final Problem" and The Valley of Fear, respectively), they believe in him, write about him, and even look for “evidence” of his machinations in other Canon stories.
Never mind that such a thing as a criminal mastermind has never existed in real life. Let's just forget that most criminals lack all or most of the very characteristics that would be necessary to accomplish what Moriarty is supposed to have done in building his vast, international, ultra-powerful, yet nearly invisible, criminal network. (Those include patience, long-term planning skills, putting aside present desires in order to accomplish future goals, being able to work well with others, superior organizational skills, etc.) The Canon says it, so they believe it.
I remember very clearly the first time I read FINA when I was 12. I thought, “A criminal mastermind? There are no such things as criminal masterminds. That’s just stupid. That sounds like something Doyle made up because he wanted to kill off Holmes and make him (Holmes) look heroic while he (Doyle) was doing it.” I was delighted to find out several years later that I was right: That’s exactly what Doyle had been doing.
I can see where people who lived in 1894 (when FINA was published) or 1914-15 (VALL) might have believed that nonsense; very little was known about criminology then. But there’s no excuse for modern fans to buy that junk.
I would be prepared to bet that if we took this scene, changed the character's names and reworded is just so much to not make it immediately recognizable (but still left the actions in it unchanged) and then showed it to people; everybody would immediately peg DD-stand is as a villain.
Oh, that would be brilliant! I’d love to see that! Please rewrite it. Then some of us could perform the experiment and see how it works out.
But I wonder. Somehow I very much doubt he ever considered that "the one" could be anything else but a wizard boy.
His prejudices would have made it impossible for him to consider other options.
True. No doubt that holds for Voldy, also. Which is why it would be so great for it to be someone they didn’t expect. It would be the Spanish Inquisition of saviors!
Re: It Goes Both Ways
Date: 2014-11-15 03:08 pm (UTC)Yes, this.
The way Snape was pigeonholed into "horrible, evil git" role by most of the fandom is an "amazing" example of it.
Never mind everything he did, all the sacrifices he made and torment he suffered. For most people he will forever be an evil, slimy bully who was horrible to everybody.
Hell, regarding this chapter; I've seen and heard people say Snape was only asking for Lilly, didn't care for anybody else, and was planning to keep her as a sex slave.
And I truly can't understand how anybody, who's not like Voldy or DD (and thus free of emotions and empathy), could think that.
Many times I asked why, if Snape was an evil predator obsessed with Lilly, he never dosed her with a love potion.
Should we believe that the best potion maker and most creative person we see in those books, just wasn't up to making a "love" potion?
Strangely, I never did get a answer from "Snape is evil" people on this. *eyeroll*
And I agree about Moriarty too.
He was a blatantly retconned plot device.
Ratigan from "The Adventures of the Great Mouse Detective" was more convincing and sensible then Moriarty ever was.
True. No doubt that holds for Voldy, also. Which is why it would be so great for it to be someone they didn’t expect. It would be the Spanish Inquisition of saviors!
I think it would have been super funny (and probably more satisfying then what we did get in the end) if everybody had "the one".
So, The Chosen!Wizard (bonus points if, against everything DD and Tom believed, it was a girl), The Chosen!Muggle, The Chosen!Centaur, The Chosen!House-elf, The Chosen!Goblin and other The Chosen!anything that suffered from Voldy's rule. All working together to destroy him and bring harmony to the world.
... only thing is, Voldy ended up being such a failure of a evil, Dark Lord that I don't think any of it would be needed.
Re: It Goes Both Ways — How can people think this way?
Date: 2014-11-15 04:22 pm (UTC)(That ought to tide me and the various discussions over till Christmas. :P )
Yay you put this back! <3
Date: 2014-11-12 04:35 am (UTC)Hence the black humor and comedy gold in the "A Bit of Fry and Laurie" sketch where the captured British officer (played by Stephen Fry) sold out the vital "6 June, Normandy" intel to the Nazi German interrogator (Hugh Laurie, with a facial scar) because he fell in lust with him and "the kraut" promised to kiss him. It's funny because 1) Love-struck people making a fool out of themselves and 2) the historical course is thus changed (even though Germany would still lose, perhaps) all because of cheap sentiments.
Speaking of which, even a "gangland rumble" requires actual brains to pull it off. Look how meticulously a younger Vito Corleone dealt with that neighborhood mafia boss in The Godfather: Part II, from testing the waters by bringing him only part of the extortion money (he accepted the cash, therefore he's not as tough as he bluffs to be), to carrying out His First Kill during a festival with firecrackers so that no one can hear the gunshots.
~*~
Think what a world of fanfics that possibility opens: What if the prophesied savior turned out to be a house elf who’d been so broken down by servitude it was incapable of fighting Voldemort? After all, the Dull Lord is still technically human, and house elves aren’t allowed to harm humans. What a last laugh Hermione would have over that! It might really be her last laugh, too, if the savior was killed and Voldemort went to town on the mudbloods.
Confucius once said, "If you learn about the Knowledge at dawn, then you may die happy at dusk." In a doomed world, knowing that their best hope was dashed long ago because of the precious ways the WW was run, would be a piece of Knowledge worth dying for. To an extent.
~*~
Dear God, I can't wait for the next part! :-)
Re: Yay you put this back! <3
Date: 2014-11-14 07:38 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-11-12 04:51 pm (UTC)I'm pretty sure this isn't true, actually. House elves don't seem able to harm their own masters whom they currently serve, but Dobby has no problem attacking Lucius Malfoy with magic after he's been freed, nor with dropping a chandelier on Bellatrix Lestrange (though that could be movie-contaminating, admittedly...). Plus, in the fifth book Dumbledore reveals to Harry that Kreacher lied to him about Sirius, and says that since Harry was not his master he had no obligation to serve or be truthful to him.
It's fairly obvious why Snape's behaving the way he is. His behavior is classic submissive behavior--he's basically saying "I'm scared enough not to fight you, so don't come after me anyway." If Dumbledore were benevolent he'd realize this and back off; however....
It is ridiculous the sheer amount of posturing Dumbledore does in this scene, though. I'm pretty sure such a thing would never happen in real life because it'd just make him look stupid. Maybe that's another thing he's got in common with Voldemort...?
Blinding Light
Date: 2014-11-12 07:03 pm (UTC)Acts 9 New King James Version (NKJV): "...and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven. Then he [Saul] fell to the ground, and heard a voice..." compared to JKRs "...Then a blinding, jagged jet of white light flew through the air: Harry thought of lightning, but Snape had dropped to his knees ..."
She intends this to be the eye opener that 'converts' Snape just as Saul became St. Paul. The conversion of a persecutor of christians to a christian himself used to symbolize Snape's conversion from the dark to the light - he's even standing in the dark before the light comes.
And the voice to speak? To Saul, it is Jesus asking why Saul persecutes him (meaning his followers), but Albus (the white) more or less does the same by emphasizing Snape's role as DE. JKR cannot have Albus say anything about Sev persecuting members of the Order because she has already had Bella stress that he didn't do anything of the sort (presumably because he was a coward - at least that's Bella's opinion - needless to say, I disagree)
But the rest I agree with whole-heartedly. There is NO reason at all to go to Albus at all IF Sev was still a loyal DE and only wanted Lily to be saved. Voldy has already promised him that and if he was a true believer then he would think her safe. If for no other reason than Voldy would just love to have someone's safety to hold over Snape now that he has shown a weakness.
With the favoritism Albus had shown James it is impossible for Snape not to believe that going to Albus for Lily's protection cannot possibly exclude James from the same protection. Just by going to Albus with the warning, Sev is asking him to hide them all. He is quite shocked to find out Albus requires something from him to do so.
And with that 'kill them all' Snape DOES include James, before Albus mentions him. IF Snape was only thinking of Lily and Harry, he would not have been right to say 'all' he would have said 'both'.
My very first thought on my first reading that 'trusted the wrong person' bit was also yeah - he trusted YOU!
Re: Blinding Light
Date: 2014-11-12 07:58 pm (UTC)Re: Blinding Light
Date: 2014-11-15 11:07 am (UTC)It's worth looking at Dumbledore's reactions after James and Lily have been killed. Here he is, talking to Minerva while waiting for Hagrid to deliver Harry to Privet Drive: "All day? When you could have been celebrating? I must have passed a dozen feasts and parties on my way here....We've had precious little to celebrate for eleven years...We have much to be thankful for. Would you care for a sherbert lemon?...I haven't blushed so much since Madam Pomfrey told me she liked my new ear-muffs".
When Minerva finally gets over 'the point she most anxious to discuss, the real reason she had been waiting...', and asks if the Potters are really dead, Dumbledore's reaction is a bowed head, a glum nod, and a sniff. It's not until he looks at the child he's giving over to the Dursleys, that we are told that 'the twinkling light that normally shone from Dumbledore's eyes seemed to have gone out". Still, never mind. ''Well', said Dumbledore finally, 'that's that...We might as well go and join the celebrations'.
What a shame Severus wasn't there to see how to really care about people.
Re: Blinding Light
Date: 2014-11-15 04:38 pm (UTC)Re: Blinding Light
Date: 2014-11-15 05:22 pm (UTC)Dark Lord is not truly gone, Potters are dead (and DD should have some guilty conscience over not only not helping, but taking the cloak that might have saved them), Harry is an orphan destined to die young, and spend years in a unhappy home.
But Albus is close to singing and dancing down the street from joy? And can't wait to go join some parties?
Yeah, that really says a lot about DD.
Re: Blinding Light
Date: 2014-12-02 02:35 am (UTC)Out-of-universe, I tend to think JKR hadn't developed enough background to think of how inappropriate that reaction would be (i.e. Order of the Phoenix was made up later), but IN-UNIVERSE? That's a fantastic nail in the coffin. Thank you.
Re: Blinding Light
Date: 2014-12-02 03:13 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-11-12 07:26 pm (UTC)Great commentary on the psychology, the body language and Dumbles' theatrics.
Regarding the prophecy: First we must differentiate between what the entire prophecy really meant and how Voldemort interpreted the partial information he had. And this depends on what exactly Voldemort had heard. The only source to the idea that Voldemort received the first part is Albus. Who is hiding from Harry (at the time of telling) that it was Severus who had overheard the prophecy, and that he was seen by Albus himself, yet let go. (IOW Albus isn't covering for Severus but for himself.) Occam's razor suggests otherwise.
I will quote here part of my edited version of part 4 of my series on the first war (can be found on my LJ as well as my IJ):
Reader duniazade made the whole line of speculation unnecessary. Why should we trust Dumbledore to be telling the truth about what Severus overheard when we know he lied about when Severus was removed from the building? Albus has a motivation to obscure the circumstances because he doesn't want Harry to know who was the person who overheard the prophecy, nor does he want Harry to know that Albus was immediately aware that the prophecy was overheard, and by a Death Eater of all people. It makes more sense that Severus simply heard the end of the prophecy 'The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies'
----------------
Of course, it still leaves the possibility of the One to be non-human or non-magical. There was a fanfic in which it turned out the One was Dean, who ended up killing Voldemort by dropping a block of concrete on Voldemort's head from a crane.
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Date: 2014-11-17 06:21 am (UTC)^This. To those who can spare an hour of free time, please read the late Christopher Hitchen's "The Missionary Position: Mother Teresa in Theory and Practice".
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Date: 2014-11-13 09:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-11-14 02:53 am (UTC)I think that JKR chose this setting to make the scene more dramatic.
/knew an enemy agent was conveying vital information to the enemy commander, and he allowed him to do it!/
Just like he knew vital information about Tom Riddle and yet still allowed him to go to Hogwarts and said nothing to the rest of the staff.
I wonder if the reason why JKR keeps having Dumbledore hoard all of this information to himself is because he is supposed to be the substitute for God in this series. Omnipotent and omniscient, yet curiously unable to conquer evil or, at the very least, to keep it from harming good.
Your speculations about who the prophecy could have referred to were hilarious. XD
/concerned about at least Lily and Harry/
And James. As Hwyla said, if Snape was only talking about Lily and Harry, he would’ve said “kill them both.”
/false choice, and Scummywhore knows it/
And what’s more, HE’S the one to bring up this false choice. A lot of people claim that Snape is a selfish jerk who only cared about Lily, but Dumbledore is the one who brought up this idea in the first place. Again, he’s supposed to be benevolent and yet he suggests that Snape let Voldemort kill Harry in exchange for Lily? I suppose one could argue that Dumbledore was being sarcastic here, but as you’ve said, he’s putting words into Snape’s mouth. Snape never said, “I don’t care about Potter and his brat, I just want to make sure that Lily’s safe.”
/“You do not care, then, about the deaths of her husband and child? They can die, as long as you have what you want?”/
Oh, like YOU do not care, then, Albus, about the death of her child? He can die, sixteen years later, as long as you have what YOU want?
And, again, what could Snape do other than what he’s doing right now? The only reason that Voldemort is coming after the Potters in the first place is because of Harry. There’s no way that Snape can bargain for Harry’s life. It’s not like Voldemort was coming after Lily and Snape said, “Oh, no, Master, kill her husband instead!”
/Why the hell should I give you anything? These are your people I’m asking you to protect!/
And now we can count another plot thread that DH ruined. We learned that Peter’s life debt to Harry was either nonexistent or completely pointless, that James and Lily could’ve been their own Secret Keepers and thus avoided their deaths, etc. But now here’s the anticlimactic conclusion of something else. All throughout the series, readers were wondering why Dumbledore trusted Snape so much, why he was so adamant that Snape had definitively left the Death Eaters, and what Snape had done to demonstrate his unshakable loyalty to Dumbledore. I wouldn’t be surprised if some HP fans thought that Snape had personally saved Dumbledore’s life or if Dumbledore had saved Snape’s life or any other event that would have generated a strong friendship and/or father-son bond between the two men.
Now? Oh, no, Dumbledore doesn’t trust Snape because there’s a strong bond between them or because Snape has demonstrated his virtue or because he’s willingly joined the Order after freely repudiating the Death Eaters’ ways. No, the reason why Dumbledore is so confident that Snape will never betray him is because he’s browbeaten him into doing what he says, used his unrequited love for Lily as a guilt-trip to keep him in line, and treated the Potters as a bargaining chip to ensure Snape’s obedience. Isn’t that nice to know?
/It’s pure authorial contrivance that he cares, since she didn’t give him any reason to care in the last several years/
And just like many fans buy what Dumbledore says in this scene, so too do they buy the image of Lily as a tearful angel, sorrowful at what Snape has become and the guardian light for his existence, rather than a shallow hypocrite who dumped him for his bully.
A few people have remarked on the biblical imagery of this scene. For me, this scene is reminiscent of the Book of Job. Yahweh allowing Satan to destroy a man’s life for a bet, and when Job tries to seek an answer for why he has suffered so, he’s bullied into submission and basically told, “Because I can make lightning and you can’t. So, shut up.”
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Date: 2014-11-14 03:32 am (UTC)That's the most sensible explanation of the Book of Job I've ever heard in my life.
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Date: 2014-11-14 03:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2014-11-15 02:54 am (UTC)GOD: And where have YOU been, young man?
ADVERSARY: Out.*
GOD: Uh-huh. And did you by chance see Job while you were out? Such a good, respectful boy.
ADVERSARY: Only because you give him stuff! If you kicked him out of the house and stopped paying his insurance bills, he'd stop sucking up to you.
GOD: If you're so smart, take Job's stuff away and see what happens.
Iow, God is totally coming across as the kind of parent who would give "Because I'm the boss and I said so, that's why" as a reason.
* Ie, "Roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it." I think "out" is a reasonable modernization ;-) I've heard this section described as a gentlemen's agreement, but you can't have a proper gentlemen's agreement when one of you is plainly a surly teenager.
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Date: 2014-11-15 03:21 pm (UTC)/GOD: And where have YOU been, young man?/
Translation: “I want to know what you’ve been doing even though, as an omniscient god, I should already know this. So, either I’ve forgotten that I’m omniscient or it’s a rhetorical question.”
/ADVERSARY: Out.*/
Translation: “Just wandering around, because apparently I have nothing else to do but chill. I mean, come on, why do you even need me? You’re supposed to be omniscient and omnipotent, so why do you even need a divine prosecutor?”
/GOD: Uh-huh. And did you by chance see Job while you were out? Such a good, respectful boy./
Translation: “And being omniscient, I know exactly how you’re going to react to this statement, so why did I even bring up Job in the first place? Oh, right, so I could goad you into making a bet with me.”
/ADVERSARY: Only because you give him stuff! If you kicked him out of the house and stopped paying his insurance bills, he'd stop sucking up to you./
Translation: “Why am I even saying this? Am I jealous of Job? Am I just that misanthropic and disillusioned with humanity? Am I just doing my job as your prosecuting attorney even though, again, my job is utterly pointless because you’re omniscient? I don’t know. Whoever wrote down this story didn’t care. I’m just a plot device.”
/GOD: If you're so smart, take Job's stuff away and see what happens./
Translation: “My followers believe that giving into your temptations is one of the biggest sins imaginable, and yet look at me! Instead of saying something pious and profound such as, ‘Say what you will, but I know Job’s heart and I know that what you say is false,’ I’ll answer, ‘Oh, yeah? I’ll show you!’ Even though this whole thing is pointless because I’m omniscient and therefore shouldn’t even waste my time arguing with you and…oh, forget it. This whole omniscience thing is really a gaping plot hole, isn’t it?”
no subject
Date: 2014-11-17 02:21 am (UTC)Blinding light
Date: 2014-11-15 04:19 pm (UTC)First, I agree with both you and Hwyla. The author intended us to think of the road to Damascus, the wrath of God, etc. But as soon as one looks at in from the inside, asks why did Dumbledore stage-manage the scene as he as he did, your answer is obviously correct. He's trying to maximize Severus's disorientation and terror. He wants Severus more frightened of him than of his (soon to be other) master.
I almost fell over when you mentioned Satan. Er, yes. Godlike, as you say.
By the way, regarding Snape ending on his knees before Albus--didn't our delightful friend Tommy use a spell on Harry to force him to bow? Just sayin'.
Now, was Albus in the habit of meeting with random Death Eaters anytime they ask? Is this how he always receives them? (Now I'm imagining Regulus's reaction to being forced to his knees and disarmed when he'd come to parley--no wonder he changed his mind and decided to deal with the Horcrux himself.)
Or was Albus expecting Severus in particular to approach him?
I forget if I ever threw this theory out: we know that (on the assumption that Albus is not utterly incompetent and stupid, which is always an alternative explanation) Albus had Aberforth deliberately release Severus to go to Tom with (part of) the prophecy. What if, Albus already knew Lily was pregnant and due at the end of July?
And suspected how Snape (still) felt about her?
Meaning he deliberately sent Severus off to Tom with a prophecy which he knew, but Severus didn't, would endanger the person Severus loved most.
In which case he's been waiting for this sequel, and has had plenty of time to plan his approach.
Regarding your last observation, I do remind you that Erastes' Random Death Eaters, Chuck and Lance, DID acknowledge it in the Deadly Hollow spork of this chapter.
Caring about others
Date: 2014-11-15 04:38 pm (UTC)You pointed out that our moral and nice professor, Lupin, was utterly without affect at the thought of his in-laws being tortured.
And was it you who observed that Power-of-Love Harry, when Ron was collapsing in relief after the wedding when ARthur's patronus informed the Trio they had not just abandoned Ron's whole family to be tortured and killed, was indifferent until he remembered that Ginny had been left at the Burrow too. "I'd feel the same--oh, wait, I DO feel the same. Yeah, I'm relieved Ginny didn't snuff it." (If your mum and dad, who'd been practically my foster parents , had, I wouldn't have given a *, Ron....)
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Date: 2015-08-30 09:27 pm (UTC)Nine Inch Nails is industrial rock, not thrash metal.