'Young Wizards' superiority acknowledged?!

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I think some/many of us here abhor Rowling's immense commercial success because it wasn't truly 'earnt' or deserved. She was fine with the early books for the kiddies in waving her hands about and fabricating a whimsical magical universe in which things happened because MAGIC! but when it came down to the crunch in writing a satisfactory conclusion to her series, where the hero had to win in a way that made sense and not BECAUSE, she showed us all that she'd put very little thought into what she was doing ... and that she couldn't properly finish what she started.

I've always compared Rowling's series with another young-adult set of books - the 'Young Wizards' series by Diane Duane. The latter being novels where the author *has* done her homework, *has* actually thought things out ... where magic makes sense and the wizards have to put serious effort into their spells, versus waving a stick and shouting a couple of nonsensical faux-latin words.

I've mentioned the 'Young Wizards' series in this community a few times, and I know from their comments here that Terri Testing and Mary J are big fans of Duane's work too.

Anway ... a mammoth HP fan fiction story, Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality by Less Wrong is making some waves in the fandom at the moment because it's (finally!) nearing completion. It's a great story - I think it's the most-reviewed story on fanfiction.net/the planet - but could be seen as one where the author has hijacked HP as a vehicle to float a lesson on principles of logic and science - 'rationality' - and sometimes gets bogged down in the pedagogy. The I.Q. of the fanfic exceeds my own but I've enjoyed reading it anyway (and learnt some things along the way).

The story is nearing its conclusion; just the aftermath of the big final battle to go. In the confrontation between Harry and Voldemort chapter 109 included a very satisfying acknowedgement of Duane's 'Young Wizards' series:

"Wow," Harry whispered, and meant it. This was Magic with a capital M, the sort of Magic that appeared in So You Want To Be A Wizard, not just a collection of random physics-violating things you could do with a wand.

'So You Want To Be A Wizard' is the first volume of Duane's series.

I reckon there's something of a put-down of Rowling's work, a statement avowing the 'Young Wizards' novels' superiority, in that mention. Magic with a capital M ... it's good to see others note Rowling's failure for what it is (and isn't).

'Methods of Rationality' itself is one of those fanfics wherein the author is putting Rowling to shame in plot, logic, magical mechanics and most other things, although it's perhaps too clever/complicated for its own good.

Duane has noted the mention here.

Comments

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

Your essay is brilliant. I'd never thought about fully comparing the YW with HP - maybe because the complete superiority of the former over the latter is so obvious to me?! - but I loved reading your comparison. For your YW insight and also for all of the various HP flaws you detailed, many of which I have flailed about on Fiction Alley if not here. We are simpatico on both our pro-YW and anti-HP stances. :-)

Nothing to 'cringe' about in your writing that I could see; I found it to be a delightful blend of intelligence and enthusiasm. 'Deliberately casual' while still driving the point home IMO.

It was the differences between 'magical mechanics' which always struck me first when comparing HP with YW. I'm glad I've had the chance to read your article; now I know of lots of other comparisons where YW excels and Rowling fails. Like the integration of the families with the wizards; oh, goodness, yes.

One of your comments on your post in particular rang some bells for me -

And DD pwns JKR effortlessly. I just wish she had the fame and millions of bucks to show for it. *sads*

Yeah. That's the big crime in all this. Such a pity.

The funny thing is even though I loathe the books, I adore the HP fandom- and while I love YW, I’ve not been active in fandom at all.

Yeah, same here. As you mentioned in another comment on your blog post, HP is a case where fanfic authors and the fandom are way superior to the canon author. Which is sort of a pity ... I always get sad when I think about all of the wasted energy spent by the fans, in every interstice between the HP novels, in trying to predict what Rowling was going to write next, how she was going to close the series, what brilliant plan did she have up her sleeve ... when in fact she had no idea, and would fail so abysmally in her attempt at closure.

And that the world at large would give her a free pass anyway. :-(

Thanks for passing on the link to your essay, it's great stuff!

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

Appreciate the compliments! I'm glad you found it worth the read. :D

It was the 'magical car rescuing the kids' that prompted that essay, if I recall correctly - it outraged me so much how UNDESERVED it was in Harry Potter and that made me compare the kids in terms of their attitudes and treatment of others and then that massive rant against HP came spilling out, lol.

Diane Duane's one of the rare authors who takes families seriously - tons of others will marginalize the family, either making parents out to be neglectful or just killing them off, and it's so rewarding how she develops the children's relationships with their parents as they carry on with their wizardry. The 'reveal' scene in Deep Wizardry is one I've read and thrilled over many times.

I always get sad when I think about all of the wasted energy spent by the fans, in every interstice between the HP novels, in trying to predict what Rowling was going to write next, how she was going to close the series, what brilliant plan did she have up her sleeve ... when in fact she had no idea, and would fail so abysmally in her attempt at closure.

Ugh, this exactly. DH was just the laziest imaginable ending that if I hadn't gotten some much-needed perspective from the series, I'd say it was heartbreaking, but I'm over it now. I just think it's such a shame her heart wasn't in it anymore and she didn't have the same investment as fans who spent so much time and energy on the characters she flattened and threw away in such a trite and empty fashion. Bah.

But anyway, thanks again, my ego is preening. :P

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I just finished 'Wizards of Mars' today so I had to come here and leave a quick note. :-)

You've said that you don't like the K/N pairing so I'll just say that I'm happy with it, although it's going veeeery slowly. Still, the few sentences we got in WoM were very satisfying. So much better than Rowling's jealousy and chest monsters! I guess my affinity for K/N is quite consistent with my HP OTP, H/Hr; both relationships built on best friends to start with, both slow burning (H/Hr in most of the fanon), both hero and heroine. :-)

Do you know offhand how old Kit and Nita are in WoM? It was mentioned there that Dairine is only eleven years old, which surprised me, because there are certainly elements of attraction between her and Roshaun - to the point where she is dressing up for him, in a way - which made me think she was older. I'm wondering now how old the principals are.

WoM left me slightly perturbed that Nita is leaving Kit behind and becoming something of a Mary Sue. She was originally into plants, is a master of kernels, is now a burgeoning seer and even may have water elemental leanings, in addition to saving the day and having the big climactic battle to herself in the book.

Kit is ... still Mr. Machinery. Doesn't even have Ponch any more. :-(

With all of the books I honestly thought that Duane spent equal time and emphasis on both of them, but that wasn't the case with her latest.

Diane Duane's one of the rare authors who takes families seriously - tons of others will marginalize the family, either making parents out to be neglectful or just killing them off, and it's so rewarding how she develops the children's relationships with their parents as they carry on with their wizardry.

It really really really is. I loved reading this comment of yours having just today finished WoM, with the final chapter set in the Callahan back yard with both sets of parents hobnobbing with the wizards on an equal footing. It's like Mary J said to you further up - Duane's wizards treats everyone, all life, with respect. So refreshing to read, and a perfect way to finish the book (well, that and the 'it took you long enough' thing :-)).

I love Carmela ... even more than Nita and Kit, maybe. I'm wondering what's going to happen to her - a non-wizard linguist of some sort? Anyway, she's a ripper character.

Well, I had to cheer about the Young Wizards to someone; thanks for listening. :-) Cheers!

[borg-princess.livejournal.com]

I'm glad you're enjoying K/N - it's not my cup of tea, but I'm not violently anti the ship (as opposed to R/Hr, which gets me frothing at the mouth, lol). I can see the appeal of friendship-turning-to-romance, it's just not one of my fave tropes, but now that you point out the similarities to H/Hr, I can see how it's perfectly suited to you!

Oh, wow, the ages don't sync up with my understanding at all. I tend to assume the protags age a year for each book, so I'd've thought Dairine was much older! I mean, there's certainly a romantic element to the relationship between her and Roshaun (I ship iiiiit, I wish there was more in the canon or fandom for this pairing), but wow, ELEVEN? I missed that.

If you look on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_Wizards), there's this under 'temporal setting':

Time in the Young Wizard series does not progress in a straightforward manner, and in fact there is some disagreement among fans as to the chronology of events in the series. For example, in So You Want to Be a Wizard, Carmela is fifteen, Nita is thirteen, Kit twelve, and Dairine eleven. By Wizard's Holiday, they should have all aged two years, since two summer vacations (Deep Wizardry and A Wizard Abroad) have passed. However, Nita progresses only one grade from High Wizardry to The Wizard's Dilemma, which means that either Deep Wizardry and A Wizard Abroad take place in the same summer, or Nita and the other characters got held back in school. Also, in A Wizard Alone Nita mentions that she has "a couple of years' more of experience" at wizardry than Dairine, which would imply that Nita had already been a wizard for two years before Dairine took her Oath. In Wizard's Holiday, Dairine says she and Spot have been "working together" for a couple years. Wizards at War puts Nita's age at fourteen. In High Wizardry, Dairine is eleven. In the latest book, A Wizard of Mars, Dairine's dad says about her, "She's only eleven!"

In August 2012, Diane Duane released "The New Millennium Edition" of So You Want To Be a Wizard.[1] This sets the events of that book firmly in 2008. The New Millennium Editions are intended to repair the "very broken, inconsistent and frankly dysfunctional timeline" which was making it hard for the series to find new readers.[2] The new timeline sees all the first nine books happen over a span of about 3 years. As Dairine is said to be 11 in book 1 ,and she is now said to be 13 in book 9.

Ugh, PONCH. I have shed tears many times throughout the series and losing Ponch...not cool, DD, whyyyyy. I loved their interactions.

the final chapter set in the Callahan back yard with both sets of parents hobnobbing with the wizards on an equal footing

Yes, this is really my fave part. I like the kids being their own people and pursuing what's important to them, but still being able to seek support from their parents and having that home base to come back to.

Now the contentious part...

Tbh, I would've put Carmela under the Mary Sue category rather than Nita. I feel that Nita's earned all her accomplishments and we see her working and suffering for what she's achieved, whereas Carmela gets to enjoy the fruits of wizardry and benefit from the fun sides of magic without having to pay her dues, so to speak. All the other wizards take it seriously as a job, more of a calling in life, but she gets to dip in and out as she chooses without going through an Ordeal or any of that aspect. It doesn't seem fair to me. :/

My opinion might change as the series continues (whenever it continues...release the next book already, DD!) - I admit, when Dairine first became a wizard, I was so indignant! Like, that's Nita's thing, what she was good at, how dare Dairine intrude and be even younger and a prodigy outshining Nita! And then I grew to love her and tbh, Dairine's my fave over Nita now, even though she's not the lead.

Lol at our completely differing views on the series, agree to disagree, I suppose! But at least we both get something different and enjoyable out of it, which is the important thing.

[madderbrad.livejournal.com]

I wish there was more in the canon or fandom for this pairing -

After I put down WoM I went searching fanfiction.net. I've been spoilt by HP. :-) I'm used to hundreds of thousands of stories with tens of thousands of reviews. I think only one YW story has garnered more than 200 reviews!?!!? And I believe I only found a couple shipping K/N? I think, maybe, the stories aren't formally classified with that 'ship by the authors; I would have expected more than that coupling the two principals.

Thank you indeedy for the Wikipedia reference -

"very broken, inconsistent and frankly dysfunctional timeline"

Say that again! Duane was approaching Rowling ("Oh, maths!") in incompetence with regard to the kids' ages! :-(

The new timeline sees all the first nine books happen over a span of about 3 years. As Dairine is said to be 11 in book 1 ,and she is now said to be 13 in book 9.

Don't they mean 14? If she started out at 11, and the books span 3 years? 11 + 3 = 14? What elementary maths am I missing here?

Fourteen makes me much happier about Dairine. And if that makes Nita 16 or so then that age fits perfectly also.

Tbh, I would've put Carmela under the Mary Sue category rather than Nita.

I can see your point of view but I think two things weaken your argument:

Carmela gets to enjoy the fruits of wizardry and benefit from the fun sides of magic without having to pay her dues, so to speak.

Exactly. Carmela's 'powers' aren't hers - the closet, the curling iron, the remote, everything except her linguistic talent are all just gizmos that she's been given. They're not part of *her*. And so they can't be used to make her a Mary Sue, IMO. It's not *Carmela* who has suddenly developed super-powers overnight, like your standard Mary Sue - she just picked up the accouterments from the wizards around her. Makes perfect sense and - for me - doesn't make the girl herself a Mary Sue.

(This might be a fine/personal distinction but it's why I never thought of her as a Mary Sue. Funny how we see things differently - LOL as you say.)

As to the Linguistic thing, that at least has been foreshadowed and built for quite a few books.

Nita, on the other hand, has acquired all of these Mary Sue *intrinsic* powers. Also, point #2:

I feel that Nita's earned all her accomplishments -

She didn't, really. Wizards apparently just specialise as they get older, but Nita is picking up any number of skills without any real effort - no more so than the usual wizardry (which is one of the wonderful things about Duane's universe, all the wizards have to *work* and *think* about their magic, no waving a wand and saying gibberish and when's dinner). The talking to living things was fine, it was an ability on par with Kit's. But then the seer thing just happened. The Peredixis (I think I spelt that wrong - Bobo) just fell into her lap, 'just because'. Ditto the water thing.

We still don't have any *reasons* why Nita has picked up four abilities to Kit's one. Bobo is the most egregious of these - *any* of the other young wizards could have gotten closer to wizardry (did they all?) and then retained it afterwards, but only Nita did. *With no explanation*. Kit & co know about Bobo, but no-one has been questioning the elephant in the room - "Why did Nita pick up a passenger in her head, what makes her so special?".

With no answer given we readers have only one answer - because she's starting to become a Mary Sue. :-(

I like Nita, but it was with WoM that I felt that the balance between the two principals really got out of whack, both in their story-granted skills and also the portions of the novel ascribed to their narrative viewpoint. Maybe the latest books have all been devoted more to Nita, but it became somewhat blatant for me with WoM.

agree to disagree, I suppose!

Oh, of course!

But at least we both get something different and enjoyable out of it, which is the important thing.

And I enjoy talking about it too. :-) One's enjoyment of something is often amplified, I find, in discussing differences in view; sometimes I either learn something I didn't know or discover my own reasons as to my feelings. Cheers!