[identity profile] sweettalkeress.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] deathtocapslock
[The next day, Harry tells Ron and Hermione what he’s learned about Voldemort as they go to the greenhouses for Herbology]

Ron: I don’t understand why he wants you to know what the man was like as a boy. Can’t he just expect you to take it on faith that he was always an evil dick?

Hermione: Well…maybe he has a weakness that you’d overlook if you didn’t know what he was like as a boy.

Harry: Anyway, Slutborn had a party recently, right? What was it like?

Hermione: It was pretty fun. He introduced us to the famous quidditch player Gwenog Jones.

Ron: Oh, wow! That’s amazing!

Professor Sprout: Enough chitchat! Get to work!

Harry, Ron, and Hermione: Yes, professor….

[They work for awhile…]

Hermione: Anyway, Harry, Slughorn invited you to his Christmas party and he said you absolutely must attend.

Ron: I don’t suppose he gave me a second thought?

Hermione: Nope, sorry. You’re still a loser.

Ron: You don’t have to remind me! [Cries] Hermione, are you going to leave me behind for that McLaggen person?

Hermione: Well…actually, they said you could bring guests, so I thought I’d invite you.

Ron: …What?

Hermione: Yes, I was. But if you’re not interested….

Ron: But I was interested!

Hermione: Spoken like my true future husband.

[To make matters worse, with Katie in the hospital wing Harry needs to find a second chaser]

Harry: Dean, Dean! You’re someone else I vaguely know and you like sports! Wanna be a chaser for our team?

Dean: If it’ll get me more screen time and attention, then yes.

Seamus: But you don’t even know how to play!

Dean: I can learn….

[Sure enough, Dean readily demonstrates previously-unknown skills at quidditch to the point of outclassing Ron, who has been on the team since last year]

Ron: Oh, woe is me! I am so bad at quidditch! Yes, I know I played quidditch last year and even helped secure a win for the team, but still, I am so! Bad! At! Quidditch that I just don’t know what I’ll do!

[He even hits Demelza Robbins in the face during one practice, he’s so nervious]

Ginny: How dare you attack her! Now you must pay the price!

Ron: Since when do you care about an injury to some stupid chaser you barely know?

Ginny: Clearly you underestimate the girl power of our friendship! Ah…what’s your name again?

Demelza: Oh, forget it!

[To make matters worse, on the way back to the common room Harry sees Dean and Ginny kissing!]

Harry: that asshole Dean! It’s like I’ve got a flaming chest monster inside me ready to jump out and eat them both alive!

Dean: Ginny, dear, Harry’s saying horrible things about us. Should we be scared of him?

Ginny: No—he’s always like that.

Ron: Seriously, though—don’t go kissing people where your brother can see it!

Ginny: Agh! I didn’t expect to see you here!

Dean: Ginny, this is awkward. Should we go somewhere else?

Ginny: You can if you want to. I want a word with these two.

Dean: Gladly. [Leaves]

Ginny: Ron, what on earth gives you the right to barge in on me like this!

Ron: I can’t just watch my own sister kissing someone who isn’t her destined man Harry!

Harry: Yeah!

Ginny: I told you before, I don’t want a destined man! I’m happy with Dean Thomas!

Ron: That’s too fucking bad! You think I want to marry Hermione? No I don’t! But I’ll marry her anyway because that’s what the plot tells me to do! It’s the same with you—you’ll marry Harry and you will like it!

Harry: Yeah!

Ginny: You’re one to talk—a loser like you is lucky to have even a destined wife let alone one who’d actually like you for yourself!

Ron: I do so have someone who likes me for myself!

Ginny: …What now?

Ron: Yeah! Lavender Brown!

Ginny: Ahahaha! That’s absurd! You really expect me to believe that?! [Walks away laughing]

Ron: It’s true….

Harry: [Stifles giggles]

Ron: Not you too!

Mrs. Norris: I thought I heard voices out here in the corridor! You children go back to your rooms right now!

Harry: Aaagh! It’s Filch, Mr. Norris’s cat! We’d better get out of here!

[He and Ron run to the common room]

Harry: I just don’t understand why Ginny would ever date a side character like Dean when she has me.

[Ron is so pissed off at Dean that his skills as a keeper completely fail him for the next few practice sessions]

Ron: At this rate we don’t have a chance.

Harry: If only there was something I could do to boost your self-confidence. [Reflects for a moment] Come to think of it….

Ron: Harry what are you thinking?

Harry: I don’t have to tell you anything. Just shut up and do exactly what I say at breakfast tomorrow.

[The next morning Harry takes the small bottle of luck potion to breakfast]

Harry: [to self] How can I give Ron the self-confidence of this potion without giving him the potion? I know! [to Ron] Ron!

Ron: Yes, what is it?

Harry: Well, anyway, I was just wondering what it is you’d like to drink.

Ron: Oh, no preference.

Harry: Alright, then—I’ll just pour you a nice, ice-cold glass of pumpkin juice, seasoned with my own special—

Hermione: Oh, no you don’t! You’re putting something in his drink, aren’t you? Something illegal!

Harry: So what if I am? You’re the one who confounded McLaggen to get Ron on the team!

Hermione: That’s different! I do illegal things in a noble, studious way; you do them in a lazy, careless way. Therefore I’m allowed to break the law and you’re not!

Ron: That pumpkin juice looks awfully good, and I’m so thirsty…. I think I’ll just drink it no matter what it contains…. [Drinks juice]

[They go outside to see that the weather is perfect, and that Slytherin’s two best players are out of the game—including Draco!]

Ron: Hooray! Now I don’t have to have Draco breathing down my neck!

[They go out to the quidditch pitch….]

Zacharias Smith: Hello, Hogwarts! Remember me from last book? I’ll be commentating this match!

Harry: Eew, it’s that good-for-nothing Hufflepuff who doubted my awesomeness.

Zacharias Smith: I can’t help but notice that there are two Weasleys playing in completely different roles, which suggests that they’re only there because the captain favors them….

[But Ron blocks a lot of goals, and Ginny scores a lot]

Zacharias Smith: Or…maybe they are just that good. Huh. Aaand, now the Slytherin seeker has spotted the Snitch!

Harry: Oh, no! I must catch up to him straight away!

[Unfortunately the Slytherin seeker is much closer than he is]

Harry: Hey you slimy Slytherin seeker! I’ll bet the only reason why you’re on the team is because Draco paid for you to replace him!

Slytherin seeker: Fuck you! [Sticks up two fingers at Harry, losing track of the Snitch in the process]

[Harry subsequently captures the Snitch himself]

Harry: Hooray! We won with flying colors!

[Ginny then smashes into the podium where Zacharias Smith was standing, injuring him]

Ginny: That’ll teach you uppity Hufflepuff to say anything bad about our team or its captain!

[After the match, Harry, Ron, and Hermione meet up in the changing room]

Hermione: I still say you ought to be punished for spiking Ron’s drink!

Harry: I did no such thing! See? [Pulls out bottle, which is still tightly sealed] All I did was make Ron think he’d drunk it!

Ron: But why?

Harry: All so you could have self-confidence!

Ron: Oh, right! Sort-of like what happened in the last book! Except that then I won without you helping me…. Hey! [Leaves]

Harry: Oh, well. Shall we go to the common room to celebrate, then?

Hermione: Go by yourself—I’ll catch up.

[Harry goes to the common room to find himself surrounded by the Creevey brothers and several girls]

Romilda Vane: So, anyway, are you going to invite me to Slutborn’s party?

Harry: No.

Romilda Vane: How about now?

Harry: No.

Romilda Vane: Now?

Harry: No!

Romilda Vane: Now?

Harry: Yes.

Romilda Vane: Really?!

Harry: NO!

Ginny: Harry, Harry! Come look at Ron!

[Harry follows Ginny to a corner where Ron is kissing Lavender Brown]

Ginny: So it’s not okay for me to kiss anyone but you—but it’s perfectly fine for him to kiss someone who isn’t Hermione? Hypocrite!

Harry: Yeah, you’re right about that.

[Harry steps outside the common room, finding Hermione in an unlocked classroom, practicing]

Hermione: Aren’t you a cute little bird? Who’s a good bird? You are! [Pets a number of small birds she conjured]

Harry: Oh, hello. What are you doing?

Hermione: I’m just practicing as far away from Ron as possible. That dirty manwhore, kissing a girl who isn’t me!

[Just then, Ron walks past, holding Lavender’s hand!]

Hermione: [Points at Ron] It’s you! Birds, attack that asshole!

[All the birds fly after Ron]

Ron and Lavender: AAAAAAAGH!

Date: 2015-06-04 04:06 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vermouth1991.livejournal.com
Someone should punch Ginny in the face for crashing into Zach's position like that. It reminds me of a lot of the radicals on the Internet today: they claim their opponents are playing dirty from a priviledged position and therefore they don't owe them politeness in the debate, but then their debate is shown to consist of little more than foaming-at-the-mouth name-calling.

Date: 2015-06-04 05:35 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spongebending.livejournal.com
You know what I think it is with the Gryffindors? They're fine with the Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws as long as they act like the designated handmaidens and vassals of the noble Gryffs. If any Puffs or Claws step a toe out of line the Gryffs need to make sure they are put back in their place. And the big hatred of Slytherin is because the Slytherins just won't. They'll give back as good as they get.

I think I saw somewhere on here that the four houses represent the four social classes; I liked that interpretation. Gryffindor is the nobility, Hufflepuffs are the working class or common man, Ravenclaws are the clergy/intellectual class, and the Slytherins represent outsiders and foreigners. The ideal situation is, from a Gryffindor POV, the nobles Gryffs at the top with their Hufflepuff and Ravenclaw subjects. Slytherin is a problem because they don't fit, they won't bow to the nobility, they're outsiders with other allegiances; they are seen as selfish and ambitious because rather than live 'harmoniously' as subjects under the Gryffindors, they do their own thing and follow their own paths.

And lastly, I'm so pissed at Hermione. This chapter ruined her for me; I hoped it'd be a one off thing, but she actually gets WORSE in Deathly Hallows. I'm disgusted that anybody could find physically harming your partner (or even one's best friend) empowering. I wonder how in the world this behaviour is seen as acceptable but then I remember this is the book series where animal cruelty is played for laughs.

Date: 2015-06-05 01:34 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aikaterini.livejournal.com
/Ron: Oh, woe is me! I am so bad at quidditch! Yes, I know I played quidditch last year and even helped secure a win for the team, but still, I am so! Bad! At! Quidditch that I just don’t know what I’ll do!/

It seems like JKR keeps pushing the reset button when it comes to Ron. First Quidditch and then his relationship with Hermione. At the end of the book, he says Hermione’s name when he’s asleep, thus revealing his feelings for her. So, is that the end of the tiresome soap opera that is their relationship as depicted in HBP? No. They’re back to square one in DH.

/Harry: that asshole Dean! It’s like I’ve got a flaming chest monster inside me ready to jump out and eat them both alive!/

But Harry doesn’t attack them. He may seethe and scowl, but he doesn’t lay a finger on either of them. But when Hermione sees her crush kissing someone else? She sends him to the hospital wing.

/Ginny: That’ll teach you uppity Hufflepuff to say anything bad about our team or its captain!/

Meanwhile, Draco never attacked Lee Jordan during all the years that he was on the Quidditch team.

Date: 2015-06-05 02:13 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aikaterini.livejournal.com
/I think I saw somewhere on here that the four houses represent the four social classes/

Yeah, I remember reading a post or comment that argued that the virtues of each House make the supposed aristocracy of Slytherin nonsensical. Hufflepuff’s loyalty and Ravenclaw’s wisdom make sense in terms of Ravenclaws being scholars and Hufflepuffs being, as you’ve said, working-class. But Slytherin’s value of ambition makes more sense if the Slytherins are the social climbers. If they’re at the top, why are they ambitious? What more do they want to gain (unless there’s a more powerful figure, like a king, whose favor they seek)? Whereas Gryffindor’s values of courage and chivalry have often been prized by knights and the aristocracy, so it would make more sense if Gryffindors were the aristocrats instead.

/they're outsiders with other allegiances/

Funnily enough, that’s one of the reasons why Muggle-borns are viewed negatively because, as Draco tells Harry, “they don’t know our ways.”

/I'm disgusted that anybody could find physically harming your partner (or even one's best friend) empowering./

So am I. And if the roles were reversed, everybody would be calling for Ron’s head on a platter for daring to hurt Hermione. But if she does it? Oh, then it’s a “girl power” moment or we should feel sorry for her. -_-

Date: 2015-06-05 03:20 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vermouth1991.livejournal.com
There's no such thing as reverse-sexism or female-on-male domestic violence, as a big chunk of the Internet would want you to believe. Actually the term itself is a loaded one: if we have to use "reverse-" to indicate female-on-male, that's already condoning the notion that sexism is only ever male-on-female.
Edited Date: 2015-06-05 03:23 am (UTC)

Date: 2015-06-05 03:25 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vermouth1991.livejournal.com
Yeah, you'd think Lee Jordan would be ambushed in the corridors for sh@t-talking Slytherin in every match that has them in it. Canon indicates that Slytherins are not above sabotaging other Quidditch players, why spare the commentator?

Date: 2015-06-05 06:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jana-ch.livejournal.com
The business with the social classes was my idea, though I’m far from being the only one who has ever thought of it. In a way it works even better if one thinks of Slytherin as the merchant class, who are outsiders in terms of the social structure of the Dark Ages when Hogwarts was founded. The three proper estates were the aristocracy, the clergy, and the commons, with artisans and traders being specialized types of commoners. But then some of those artisans and traders get all jumped-up and ambitious and turn themselves into merchant princes, dressing in ermines and velvets just because they can afford it, then who’s to know who the real aristocrats are? Gryffindor versus Slytherin is the power of land and lineage versus the power of money. And if you’re an aristocrat who needs extra income to fight your wars, you end up having to borrow money from them, and before you know it you’re in their evil clutches! If it goes on long enough, they become billionaire capitalists and end up ruling the world, like now.

Really, Slytherin House is more properly the House of hard-scrabbling half-blood Severus Snape (and ought to be the House of hard-studying muggleborn Hermione Granger who knocks herself out trying to be the best in the scchool) than it is of Draco Malfoy, born with a silver wand in his hand. Notice that the two rich southern purebloods James Potter and Sirius Black take an instant dislike to shabby northern Severus Snape when he says he wants to join the House of Ambition. He has just announced, “I am a grubby social climber who does not know my place,” so he obviously needs to be crushed back into the peasantry where he belongs.

I don’t believe Slytherin is exclusively, or even primarily, the House of rich pureblood gentry even today, but over the course of centuries the wealthy and influential would tend to accumulate there. Since Slytherins are selected for drive and ambition, it’s likely that a slightly higher percentage of them will have highly successful careers and become rich and important people than members of the other Houses. Then their children and grandchildren, who were born with that silver wand and may well be complacent snobs like Draco, insist that the Sorting Hat put them in Slytherin because they think of themselves as belonging to Slytherin families. If the Hat would stick to Sorting for actual characteristics instead of family legacy, things would go differently. Not necessarily better, but differently.

Date: 2015-06-05 08:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] merrymelody.livejournal.com
The thing with JKR is that even tho she says that the WW is equal (it's totes a coincidence that almost every mother is at home with the kids, even when the kids are graduating high school; and almost every person running stuff is a dude), all her 'girl power!' bits are written so patronizingly that they're offensive to all genders. The boys get to be the smacked down lunk, the girls get 'gosh, she's sure got a lot of power for such a wickle ickle thing!'

Date: 2015-06-05 08:35 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aikaterini.livejournal.com
Exactly, which is why I said if the roles were reversed, not that this is an instance of reverse sexism. It’s the same reason why I don’t use the phrase “reverse racism,” because racism is racism, no matter what racial/ethnic group it happens to.

Date: 2015-06-05 08:58 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oneandthetruth.livejournal.com
Um, because Rowling is irrational and can't reason an argument through to its obvious conclusion?

Date: 2015-06-05 09:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oneandthetruth.livejournal.com
Notice that the two rich southern purebloods James Potter and Sirius Black take an instant dislike to shabby northern Severus Snape when he says he wants to join the House of Ambition. He has just announced, “I am a grubby social climber who does not know my place,” so he obviously needs to be crushed back into the peasantry where he belongs.

That was one of the things I found interesting when I began to read about the Beatles. In America, the North is the part of the country that's supposed to have the intelligent, worldly people, and the South is the region of backward, uneducated white trash. In England, it's reversed.

One of the major influences the Beatles had on British society was to raise the status of Northern Britons. For example, by deliberately keeping their "hick" accents, those accents became socially acceptable, at least for entertainers. But since WW II never overtly influences British magical society, at least in canon, the Beatles don't, either. In reality, they both would have made profound and permanent changes to magical society, just as they did to the non-magical one.
Edited Date: 2015-06-05 09:11 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-06-05 11:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spongebending.livejournal.com
That's a really interesting way of looking at it, I like the way you think! I think the reason I got Slytherin=Foreigner in my head is because Salazar himself was a foreigner from Iberia, was he not?

Anyways, the bougie Slytherins vs. the aristocratic Gryffindors really fits. The tone I get from the book is that Gryffindors are just born with this nobility, it's inherent within them even when they're just wee 11 year olds. Slytherins, on the hand, have to prove themselves so damn hard before anyone is willing to treat them like a decent person.

Date: 2015-06-06 01:38 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jana-ch.livejournal.com
It is part of my headcanon that Salazar is a Sephardic Jew from the real-life village of Salazar in northwestern Spain. We had a discussion of it here on DCTL, and Terri Testing and I jointly decided that his real name is Moshe ibn Levi de Salazar (Moses the son of Levi of the village of Salazar), and the English have nicknamed him Slytherin (“slithering”) because of his Parseltongue abilities. It also works to make him a Basque, or perhaps Jewish with a Basque grandfather. I think quite a number of fans have the idea that Salazar Slytherin, the only Founder whose name is not Germanic, is of a different ethnic group from the other three. But there’s nothing in canon (or in JKR’s vast cloud of demi-canon) that says so.

When I first came up with the social class theory, my problem was that there were three social classes and four Founders. My first thought was that Slytherin represents the person who just doesn’t fit into established categories, whether because he’s foreign or just an oddball. Then I got the idea for the merchant analogy, which goes along in part with the outsider idea. According to classic Marxism, it was the rising bourgeoisie that broke the stability of the old feudal world because they didn’t fit into the system.

I just finished reading an interesting book about the end of the Medieval Warm Period, four hundred years of warmer-than-average weather in northern Europe which began not long before the foundation of Hogwarts, allowed a big increase in European food production and therefore population, and crashed in a major famine at the beginning to the fourteenth century. Followed not long after by the Black Death. So it wasn’t just those nasty Slytherin bourgeoisie who ruined everything. I’m a history nerd, what can I say?

JKR really does seem to believe that Gryffindors are just born noble. They can behave like absolute villains, but they’re still gallant. Just like the medieval aristocracy, who were simultaneously courteous, noble, perfect knights and ruthless robber barons. But one is required to admire them no matter what. They’re the aristocrats; being admired is part of their job.
Edited Date: 2015-06-06 01:38 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-06-06 02:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] jana-ch.livejournal.com
Draco says mean things and plays mean tricks that would be funny if the twins did them, but rarely actually hurts anyone, while the Gryffs frequently assault people physically or with magic. The lesson is that “using your words” is evil, while direct action is brave and heroic. The same rule holds with Snape, who is feared and hated by all good students because he says mean things, despite the fact that he goes out of his way to avoid hurting anyone physically or magically. Meanwhile Lupin, who puts everyone in terrible physical danger by neglecting to take his Wolfsbane, is the best teacher ever because he talks nice.

I remember on one of these forums, someone did an analysis of the original school story, Tom Brown’s School Days. In that book, the boys identified as bullies are the ones who say insulting things, and the “good” boys respond by getting together and beating the bully up. Hurting someone verbally is cowardly, bullying behavior, while physical assault is brave and good. Ginny is heroic to assault Zach because doing so puts her at physical risk; chewing him out or snarking at him afterward would be cowardly behavior worthy only of a Slytherin or a corruped Hufflepuff.

I think this has its root in the idea that courage is the most important of all virtues. Clever words are cowardly because they don’t put you in danger of anything but having cleverer words flung back at you. Physical attack is brave because you’re actively putting yourself at risk of a black eye or a broken nose or being turned into a slug. When courage is the only virtue that matters, committing assault is a noble thing, as long as you’re assaulting the right person—usually someone who’s too “cowardly” to assault you first. Draco is not a well-behaved boy who has learned that hitting people is wrong; he’s just a coward. Likewise, Severus at school was not a clever geek who thought intellect was more important than being a jock, he was just a loser.
Edited Date: 2015-06-06 02:29 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-06-06 02:37 pm (UTC)
From: [personal profile] oryx_leucoryx
Yes and no. It is important to note the impact of systemic oppression.

In the US black people were significantly hindered in their ability to purchase homes and thus benefit from the post WW II prosperity not just because individual home owners refused to sell them homes but because the entire system involved in selling homes disadvantaged them - including refusal of the Federal Housing Administration to subsidize construction loans to developers in suburban subdivisions unless the developers committed to exclude African Americans from the community. Also African Americans were automatically considered too high risk to obtain mortgages and instead were forced to buy homes via installment plans, where payments did not translate into home equity until the entire debt was paid, meaning they were constantly at risk of losing their homes.

That is the difference between individual bigotry and systemic oppression. Under the latter, it is not enough to find the occasional unbiased person to get the job or the home or the service - because there are structures in place that make it very likely that even the non-bigot would play along with the system, as there are strong incentives to act that way.

So while there can be racism of many flavors, the ones that are in the same direction as the systemic biases has greater social and political significance.

Date: 2015-06-06 02:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vermouth1991.livejournal.com
What you've said is moderate and well-rounded; *but* the radical SJW won't even have that. They'd have you know that even on an individual level, say for instance a white kid being bullied by a group of black kids at school, it never counts as racism, even if they're picking on him for being a minority in that particular neighborhood. Like the HP books would have you believe that no matter what the Gryffindors do it'll always be justified and never count as bullying or assault.
Edited Date: 2015-06-06 02:52 pm (UTC)

Date: 2015-06-10 07:31 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oneandthetruth.livejournal.com
Clever words are cowardly because they don’t put you in danger of anything but having cleverer words flung back at you.

Like almost everything else about this series, that makes no sense. Has she never heard of the concept of "fighting words"? For example, England has a long tradition of men beating up other men who say derogatory things about their women. Then there are the people who've killed themselves because they were verbally bullied. Heck, she's on the record as not just saying it's important to counter anti-gay hate speech, but actually doing it herself. That's not even to consider the idiocy of a professional writer pretending words are unimportant and gutless. Which brings us back to my original point about JKR being incapable of reasoning to a conclusion.

Physical attack is brave because you’re actively putting yourself at risk of a black eye or a broken nose

Yeah, tell that to all the people who end up in the hospital after being "bravely" attacked by their romantic partners, parents, or other acquaintances.

Date: 2016-02-03 11:57 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] fatairuq.livejournal.com
A white kid being picked on by black kids for being white is prejudice but not racism. Racism is systemic oppression and since black people don't have systemic power, they can't be racist. They can be prejudiced or discriminatory but not racist. Reverse racism does not exist.

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