The Wizengamot and related bodies
Jun. 13th, 2019 08:42 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
sunnyskywalker posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
deathtocapslockI've been trying to figure out how the wizarding legislative/judicial branch works, with little luck. In a way, this is actually realistic; anyone who's ever tried to sort through how the various commissions and committees and departments and offices and programs etc. of a large government are related has probably had similar moments of bafflement. But I'd still like a semi-coherent picture of the government of wizarding Britain.
We know that the Wizengamot passes laws, so they're sometimes a parliament (apparently unicameral). But they also apparently act as the highest court. Being tried by "the full Wizengamot" is a big deal.
So far, so good. But here the neat Wizarding Branches of Government for Kids version breaks down.
In OotP, Harry is tried before the full Wizengamot. There are about 50 of them, wearing purple robes with big Ws on them. In GoF, he witnesses three memories of trials and trial sentencings. Karkaroff's is a closed trial, so we can probably assume that everyone on the benches is involved in the trial somehow. There are about 200 of them, and they're not noted as wearing official Wizengamot robes (which would be noticeable). Dumbledore refers to them as "this council," and it seems to be the Council of Magical Law. Then at Bagman's trial, there's mention of "the jury" to Crouch's right, as opposed to the spectators on other sides of the room.
If the Wizengamot is the highest court, why were those three important trials tried before the Council of Magical Law? (Gosh, Harry must really rate high on the threat-meter!) And why is the Council four times bigger than the Wizengamot? How exactly are the Wizengamot and the Council of Magical Law related? Is the Council composed of the full Wizengamot (not in their W robes, since they're not acting solely as the Wizengamot) plus 150-ish other people--and who are those people? Are "the jury" at Bagman's trial the Council (crammed onto one side of the room to make room for spectators), the Wizengamot, or a jury from yet another source?
Looking at the characters whose identities we know makes things even more puzzling. In the 1980s trials, the DMLE head (Crouch) acts as judge and chief prosecutor. At Harry's trial, the Minister for Magic (Fudge) takes on that role. Maybe the Minister is the official highest prosecutor-judge, but may delegate the job to the DMLE head? Or maybe the Minister is the prosecutor-judge for the Wizengamot, but the DMLE head holds that role for the Council?
And the presence of both of those officials means there isn't a sharp division between the legislative/judicial and the executive branches. This impression is reinforced by the initial trial plan for Harry, in which the DMLE head (Bones) was going to hear his case privately in her office. Are most trials handled by DMLE officials? Are medium-sized trials handled by a small panel of DMLE and/or Wizengamot and/or Council members? (Like, there's the Murder Panel, the Arson Panel, the Apparating Without A License Panel...) Oh, and we also hear that the Muggle Protection Act is "Arthur's law," even though he's an office head and not on the Wizengamot. Did he write it and get a Wizengamot member to propose it for him? Can department and office heads propose legislation directly?
Also, we see that DMLE head Amelia Bones is a member of the Wizengamot. She and Senior Undersecretary Dolores Umbridge sit next to Fudge and help question Harry. Are all high Ministry officials--department heads, the senior undersecretary, and the Minister--automatically granted seats on the Wizengamot, or did they acquire the positions separately? How many government positions can you hold concurrently?
In the 1980s trials, Dumbledore and Moody are sitting next to Crouch on the highest bench, but not asking any questions. Are they supposed to be his backups for interrogating the defendants? If so, why are they acting as the peanut gallery instead of doing their job? If the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot is one of the people eligible for that role (only for the Council, or for Wizengamot trials as well?), maybe Dumbledore wouldn't have been on the bench in OotP even if he were still Chief Warlock because he was acting as Harry's barrister instead (which evidently they don't normally have). And Moody had retired by OotP, so he wouldn't be there as the Auror Office's representative. (Was there another Auror there, like Scrimgeor, and Harry just didn't notice? Do they only get a representative on the Council of Magical Law, but not Wizengamot trials?) I don't think Moody was ever confirmed as the head of the Office, so either that person delegated the job to Moody, or they can pick who gets to be Auror representative. Or maybe Dumbledore and Moody are just so important that they can demand to watch any trials they want from the best seat?
Also, there's always the possibility of procedural changes between 1982 and 1995, just to make things more complicated.
Given that the DMLE head seems to be a hair's breadth from being literally the wizarding world's judge, jury, and executioner, it's no wonder we got a would-be despot like Crouch. The power structure positively encourages it. I mean, the guy was effectively the Chief Justice and the Commander in Chief! At the same time! And maybe had legislative powers too! How do they expect that to work out?
And we also never hear anyone comment that there should have been any legal impediment to Crouch trying and sentencing his own son. They really don't have any sense of conflict of interest, do they?
Anyway. The Wizengamot, the Council of Magical Law, and the executive departments: does anyone have ideas on how to sort out this tangle?
We know that the Wizengamot passes laws, so they're sometimes a parliament (apparently unicameral). But they also apparently act as the highest court. Being tried by "the full Wizengamot" is a big deal.
So far, so good. But here the neat Wizarding Branches of Government for Kids version breaks down.
In OotP, Harry is tried before the full Wizengamot. There are about 50 of them, wearing purple robes with big Ws on them. In GoF, he witnesses three memories of trials and trial sentencings. Karkaroff's is a closed trial, so we can probably assume that everyone on the benches is involved in the trial somehow. There are about 200 of them, and they're not noted as wearing official Wizengamot robes (which would be noticeable). Dumbledore refers to them as "this council," and it seems to be the Council of Magical Law. Then at Bagman's trial, there's mention of "the jury" to Crouch's right, as opposed to the spectators on other sides of the room.
If the Wizengamot is the highest court, why were those three important trials tried before the Council of Magical Law? (Gosh, Harry must really rate high on the threat-meter!) And why is the Council four times bigger than the Wizengamot? How exactly are the Wizengamot and the Council of Magical Law related? Is the Council composed of the full Wizengamot (not in their W robes, since they're not acting solely as the Wizengamot) plus 150-ish other people--and who are those people? Are "the jury" at Bagman's trial the Council (crammed onto one side of the room to make room for spectators), the Wizengamot, or a jury from yet another source?
Looking at the characters whose identities we know makes things even more puzzling. In the 1980s trials, the DMLE head (Crouch) acts as judge and chief prosecutor. At Harry's trial, the Minister for Magic (Fudge) takes on that role. Maybe the Minister is the official highest prosecutor-judge, but may delegate the job to the DMLE head? Or maybe the Minister is the prosecutor-judge for the Wizengamot, but the DMLE head holds that role for the Council?
And the presence of both of those officials means there isn't a sharp division between the legislative/judicial and the executive branches. This impression is reinforced by the initial trial plan for Harry, in which the DMLE head (Bones) was going to hear his case privately in her office. Are most trials handled by DMLE officials? Are medium-sized trials handled by a small panel of DMLE and/or Wizengamot and/or Council members? (Like, there's the Murder Panel, the Arson Panel, the Apparating Without A License Panel...) Oh, and we also hear that the Muggle Protection Act is "Arthur's law," even though he's an office head and not on the Wizengamot. Did he write it and get a Wizengamot member to propose it for him? Can department and office heads propose legislation directly?
Also, we see that DMLE head Amelia Bones is a member of the Wizengamot. She and Senior Undersecretary Dolores Umbridge sit next to Fudge and help question Harry. Are all high Ministry officials--department heads, the senior undersecretary, and the Minister--automatically granted seats on the Wizengamot, or did they acquire the positions separately? How many government positions can you hold concurrently?
In the 1980s trials, Dumbledore and Moody are sitting next to Crouch on the highest bench, but not asking any questions. Are they supposed to be his backups for interrogating the defendants? If so, why are they acting as the peanut gallery instead of doing their job? If the Chief Warlock of the Wizengamot is one of the people eligible for that role (only for the Council, or for Wizengamot trials as well?), maybe Dumbledore wouldn't have been on the bench in OotP even if he were still Chief Warlock because he was acting as Harry's barrister instead (which evidently they don't normally have). And Moody had retired by OotP, so he wouldn't be there as the Auror Office's representative. (Was there another Auror there, like Scrimgeor, and Harry just didn't notice? Do they only get a representative on the Council of Magical Law, but not Wizengamot trials?) I don't think Moody was ever confirmed as the head of the Office, so either that person delegated the job to Moody, or they can pick who gets to be Auror representative. Or maybe Dumbledore and Moody are just so important that they can demand to watch any trials they want from the best seat?
Also, there's always the possibility of procedural changes between 1982 and 1995, just to make things more complicated.
Given that the DMLE head seems to be a hair's breadth from being literally the wizarding world's judge, jury, and executioner, it's no wonder we got a would-be despot like Crouch. The power structure positively encourages it. I mean, the guy was effectively the Chief Justice and the Commander in Chief! At the same time! And maybe had legislative powers too! How do they expect that to work out?
And we also never hear anyone comment that there should have been any legal impediment to Crouch trying and sentencing his own son. They really don't have any sense of conflict of interest, do they?
Anyway. The Wizengamot, the Council of Magical Law, and the executive departments: does anyone have ideas on how to sort out this tangle?
no subject
Date: 2019-06-16 10:44 am (UTC)On what do you want to focus? You were confused by legislative-judicial branches split? Alright let's tackle it.
The trias politica model is relatively new. It isn't until end of XVII century (John Locke) and early XVIII century (Montesquieu) that we can talk about anything resembling serious discussion about it. Somehow I doubt that wizards would lower themselves to reading Two Treaties of Government so they most probably used contemporary governments as a basis for their own :)
And here our discussion on Muggle-Magical govs. relations and mission statements comes into play. Depending on answers MOM might take completely different shape.
If the secrecy is the most important matter for MOM, then it might explain why DEs were treated in such way: they are terrorists who threaten Statue of Secrecy, they are threat to WW's way of life! But they are also fellow full-grown citizens of British WW and thus deserve right to defend themselves! Before the most important people in the country that is.
It's a bit like Congress hearing, but in this case senator might send you to prison :P
I imagine that normally if Joe the wizard cursed his collection of rubber duckies, he would be slapped with fine and there wouldn't be any trial. Well unless he tried to push back and claim he was innocent, but why do so if you can just give Arthur tickets for a sport event :P
And here we walk into another trap: no matter how we look at the MOM it's obvious that there is a lot of corruption here. Albus collecting titles like competition trophies, Arthur getting goods for covering up messes, Crouch Sr. presiding over his son's trial... there is so much wrong here that I wouldn't even know where to start mopping up this mess.
The thing is: people aren't rioting against this cesspool, because they know that if they want to, let's say quickly get a license for breeding Kneazles, all you need to do is swing by Jenny's office with box of expensive chocolates and tickets for Weird Sisters concert.
So if I had to guess I would say that there is no dedicated judicial branch. Normally it's up to DMLE to decide what to do with you, unless you push back. Then the Council is called up: all of them are members of Wizengamont who either by seniority or by greasing up palms ended up joining the body. The head of DMLE presents the case and makes sure that the Council doesn't end up sidetracked. It's up to the Council to decide what to do with your case. In special cases like Harry's whole Wizengamont is called. Why? For 2 reasons; first of all he was political opponent to Fudge, so Minister tried to escalate his case. Second reason is less obvious: Harry is magical Justin Beiber. The whole universe literally centres around him. Heck a few years earlier Minister of Magic himself waved away consequence of his lawbreaking habit and informed him in person. So we have magical celebrity who despite many warnings continues to break the law without any reason (levitating a dessert, turning family member into balloon, performing Patronus charm in muggle area). The government needs to cut end to this or citizens might start ignoring laws. After all Joe the wizard who cursed his rubber duckies collection for the third time this year will have less influence than Harry :P
As for why I say that person needs to push back to get trial? Well remember Sirius' case? I don't remember details, but to me it seems that he was send straight to prison, without any stops at Ministry. Considering how catatonic he was, I wouldn't be surprised if that was enough for the DMLE.
Mind you Sunny, political systems are not my speciality. I would need to hit books to do something more serious ;)
no subject
Date: 2019-06-18 03:06 am (UTC)Why is the Muggle Protection Act Arthur's law? He isn't on the Wizengamot to be proposing legislation. Is it more along the lines of what we Muggles would call a regulation?
What makes a case Wizengamot-worth (part or whole), and what keeps it in the DMLE? Is it that the DMLE normally evaluates cases to see if the case looks in any way doubtful, and if not, they enforce the fine/jail sentence/whatever that's on the books? (Unless they get a good bribe, of course.) And if the person's guilt or innocence seems in question, or it's a high-profile case, kick it up to a Wizengamot committee or all the way to the full Wizengamot? Do some kinds of crimes go before a DMLE panel and others before a Wizengamot support staff panel not because of severity or anything straightforward, but because of historical quirks like the ones that put medical contracts under the same agency as health and safety?
Also, we know the Wizengamot and the Council of Magical Law are distinct, though probably overlapping, bodies. Why is the Council so much bigger than the Wizengamot? If it were a subset of the Wizengamot plus a few other people from various departments, it ought to have under 50 members, and if it's the full Wizengamot plus some other people, still probably no more than 100. But it's around 200 people. Accounting for Harry's poor ability to estimate numbers, maybe 150. Is the Wizengamot normally the highest court, but in national security emergencies they call up the Council, which includes the Wizengamot plus... er... lots of DMLE employees and maybe other departments? That might explain why Ludo Bagman only has "a jury"--he's seen as small fry. But then, who is that "jury," since they aren't wearing Wizengamot robes? A panel drawn from various departments and/or Wizengamot support staff? And is the Minister or DMLE head normally the judge/prosecutor of one or the other, or do they have options, or what?
People totally riot about government excess and corruption in all eras. Usually they get slaughtered, but sometimes you get the Magna Carta. Maybe the problem here is that Harry mainly hangs out with Ministry-associated families, who benefit from the corruption. There could be a(nother) populist revolt waiting to happen just out of view. You could look at the war we see as partly the two factions duking it out over which one gets those sweet backroom deals.